Most tactical, non-spellcaster?

[jaappleton]

I find spellcasters have a lot of options for any round in combat, based on their spell selection. Do you try to debuff, blast, heal, buff, etc. Lots of options on any given turn. And that's part of why they're so great!

What class and subclass would you say is in that next tier of tactical decision making on your average turn by turn basis?

[nickl_2000]

I'm assuming 1/3 casters don't count. So....

Battlemaster Fighter is the first thing that comes to mind

Others:
Way of Mercy Monk
4 Elements Monk
Rune Fighter
Psi Warrior
Ancestral Guardian Barbarian

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm assuming 1/3 casters don't count. So....

Battlemaster Fighter is the first thing that comes to mind

Others:
Way of Mercy Monk
4 Elements Monk
Rune Fighter
Psi Warrior
Ancestral Guardian Barbarian

That was my line of thinking, too. As long as you have like 2-3 allies, a kiting Ancestral Guardian seems to me to be the most tactically complex combatant I can find. Battlemaster comes at a close second. Echo Knight greatly improves both (you can get maneuvers through a feat and the Superior Technique fighting style to be an EchoK+BM).

[nickl_2000]

That was my line of thinking, too. As long as you have like 2-3 allies, a kiting Ancestral Guardian seems to me to be the most tactically complex combatant I can find. Battlemaster comes at a close second.

The only others I was on the fence about were Cavalier fighter and Wild Magic Barbarian.

[Man_Over_Game]

The only others I was on the fence about were Cavalier fighter and Wild Magic Barbarian.

Wild Magic seemed fun, but the randomness prevents you from being able to make any strategies about when or how you Rage. It's basically "Rage whenever seems cool, then just play around your superpower". So you're playing differently in every encounter, but that might not always mean "tactical". It's a good build if you don't like doing the same thing every time, though (which is one of the major goals of playing a tactical character).

Cavalier seems meh to me. While AG can run away when he taunts (allowing you to throttle the damage you take between running away, defending against other enemies, or locking down that one enemy by staying near him), Cavalier only gets his features while staying adjacent to the enemy target (so you're limited to the aforementioned strategy of "locking down that one enemy by staying near him" while the AG has 3). It's basically the Sentinel feat as a subclass; in which case, just grab the Sentinel Feat and save you a subclass.

On that note, a Battlemaster with a reach weapon, Sentinel, and Brace (new maneuver in Tasha's) would have a lot of combat tricks they could pull off in almost every fight that would be absolutely devastating to deal with.

[sayaijin]

Surprised no one has mentioned Echo Knight yet.

Do you attack from your echos location or yours? Do you position your echo to get opportunity attacks or keep it back to swap places with it?

It's definitely the next fighter subclass I'm playing.

[verbatim]

IMO Monk is the martial base class that offers the most room for tactical decison-making between the trifecta of Patient Dodge, Step of the Wind, and Stunning Strike, but several Fighter Subclasses and both 1/3 casters provide comparable or greater options on that front when juxtaposed against most monk subclasses.

IMO Monks would win outright if they could replace STR with DEX for athletics checks (grapple/shove) and if they could grapple/shove in lieu of individual hits of Flurry of Blows.

[XmonkTad]

No love for the Mastermind Rogue? They have an ability literally called "Master of Tactics!". Taking 3 levels of Mastermind can open up a bunch of things to do with your bonus action, and synergizes well with battlemaster maneuvers. Although, for more "true" tactics, getting fast hands from thief can open up tons of possibilities.

[Man_Over_Game]

IMO Monk is the martial base class that offers the most room for tactical decison-making between the trifecta of Patient Dodge, Step of the Wind, and Stunning Strike, but several Fighter Subclasses and both 1/3 casters provide comparable or greater options on that front when juxtaposed against most monk subclasses.

IMO Monks would win outright if they could replace STR with DEX for athletics checks (grapple/shove) and if they could grapple/shove in lieu of individual hits of Flurry of Blows.

One of the new Monk subclasses basically do this. They can use Wisdom for their Strength checks (although it's only while their limited use "Rage" feature is active).

[LudicSavant]

I find spellcasters have a lot of options for any round in combat, based on their spell selection. Do you try to debuff, blast, heal, buff, etc. Lots of options on any given turn. And that's part of why they're so great!

What class and subclass would you say is in that next tier of tactical decision making on your average turn by turn basis?

Question: What counts as a spellcaster? Like, even a Bear-barian can cast Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, and Commune with Nature. And anyone can pick up spells via feats or race.

[Man_Over_Game]

Question: What counts as a spellcaster? Like, even a Bear-barian can cast Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, and Commune with Nature. And anyone can pick up spells via feats or race.

I always qualified it as "anyone who regularly uses the 'Cast a Spell' Action"

[MaxWilson]

One of the new Monk subclasses basically do this. They can use Wisdom for their Strength checks (although it's only while their limited use "Rage" feature is active).

Just for the record, the second half of the suggestion (grapple/shove with the bonus attacks as well as the Attack action attacks) is arguably a bigger deal, and isn't included in Astral monk's bonuses.

It's worth reminding everyone that stunned enemies auto-fail grappling/shoving contests, so you don't necessarily need to spend ki on every round to keep someone stunned, you can just grapple/prone them. (And unlike most warriors, you lose neither AC nor damage while grappling.)

Grappling with +4ish to Athletics (Str 12ish + prof +3ish) is not ideal of course, but the variance on opposed d20s is so high that it's actually not that bad either. Obviously stuff like Cutting Words can help even more for edge cases.

[LudicSavant]

I always qualified it as "anyone who regularly uses the 'Cast a Spell' Action"

That doesn't really clarify on the points I asked about.

A Totem Warrior Barbarian can spam the Cast a Spell action at-will. Heck, the last Eagle Totem Barbarian player I played with did exactly that at every opportunity to chat with his bird friends or use them as telepathic scouts. But something tells me that's probably not what you have in mind for a "Spellcaster."

What about characters who pick up spells by means other than their Class? Is a Swashbuckler Rogue a "Spellcaster" because they like Booming Blade?

[verbatim]

I think that the simplest definition that would fit what OP is getting at is:

"what is the most tactical class/subclass that does not get to choose some cantrips/spells from a broader list due to class/subclass features?"

[Morty]

No love for the Mastermind Rogue? They have an ability literally called "Master of Tactics!". Taking 3 levels of Mastermind can open up a bunch of things to do with your bonus action, and synergizes well with battlemaster maneuvers. Although, for more "true" tactics, getting fast hands from thief can open up tons of possibilities.

Despite the lofty name, I don't know how many tactics it really opens up. It's still just one thing you can do, even if a useful one.

[XmonkTad]

Despite the lofty name, I don't know how many tactics it really opens up. It's still just one thing you can do, even if a useful one.

That's true, although depending on party composition it could be one thing that opens a lot of possibilities. Thief rogue is likely better for fast hands as a dip.

[da newt]

Conquest Pali is probably in there somewhere with it's non spell options (assuming it meets your non-caster definition).

I find any sentinel / PAM to be pretty tactical wrt to positioning, grapplers can be too, Echo Knight, Battle Master, Ancestral Guardian, Rune Knight ... offer options too, but full casters have more different buttons to push.

[ZRN]

On that note, a Battlemaster with a reach weapon, Sentinel, and Brace (new maneuver in Tasha's) would have a lot of combat tricks they could pull off in almost every fight that would be absolutely devastating to deal with.

Brace doesn't actually work with Sentinel to stop enemy movement, because it's technically not an opportunity attack - just a reaction attack. The Polearm Master feat does, though.

[Teaguethebean]

I agree with everyone saying Ancestral Guardian. I have seen several people play it like a normal barbarian and they simply just die as they don't have the tankiness of a totem, or the damage of a zealot leading to them being a sack of... while admittedly a large sack, merely a sack of hit points.

[Man_Over_Game]

Brace doesn't actually work with Sentinel to stop enemy movement, because it's technically not an opportunity attack - just a reaction attack. The Polearm Master feat does, though.

Oh, snap, you're right. Darnit.


I agree with everyone saying Ancestral Guardian. I have seen several people play it like a normal barbarian and they simply just die as they don't have the tankiness of a totem, or the damage of a zealot leading to them being a sack of... while admittedly a large sack, merely a sack of hit points.

I am one of those idiots. Made the mistake of playing an AG with Shield Master and just stuck to melee all the time. Might as well have not picked a subclass. Literally was the only person to drop to 0 HP in most fights.

[Mercurias]

I would say, in a broad sense, it would probably be certain types of Monk or Rogue. Fighters frequently have tactical complexity as well, but without proper tactics the usefulness of Monks and Rogues can absolutely nosedive, while a Fighters hitting stuff are always going to be fairly affective at hitting the aforementioned stuff.

Mercy and Kensei Monks have a lot of tactical complexity involved. Kensei monks have to choose between extra attacks and extra defense, and their weapon loadout determines where and how far away they'll be able to strike from (not to mention which weapons to attune to if they have magical effects). Mercy Monks have to decide when to heal, when to deal added damage, and how to position themselves on the map in order to have the most possible choices for the same decision in the next round.

Rogue damage revolved around getting combat advantage, and their bonus action economy makes them able to traverse the map easily. Most of their classes also give them added options for gaining or granting advantage to their allies.