PDA

View Full Version : "Faith" in D&D?



CoolMatthew
2007-11-12, 04:13 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My question has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?

Charles Phipps
2007-11-12, 04:24 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My questions has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?

I point to Kriffendoor Whifflebottom, Clueless Prime and Sorcerer of the Forgotten Realms in my campaigns. Kriffendoor is a great believer in the power of sorcery and given HIS powers come from within, he tends to view everything from within the context of sorcery. Ergo, Wizardry is just the Magicians gumming it up with unnecessary focusing bric'a'brac. Most disturbingly, Kriffendoor is an atheist. Kriffendoor suggests that "White Magic" is nothing more than invoking the clerics faith in their own sorcery to gain them power.

Actually, the Clerics themselves in my campaign have a slightly less than miraculous view of things. The Deities power is granted them through Pacts with the Church that transfer their power of the gods through them through the evocation of rites as opposed to what we tend to think of as miracles.

Thus, Pontiff Jerry can be Pontiff despite the fact that he doesn't have a head for being able to perform the Sacred rites of Resurrection that Cardinal Glick does.

Ironically, with the exception of Mystra worshippers in my games, there's a strong tendency for Wizards to be atheists as well. In general, after having met Demons and Devils, they tend to view Gods as little more than spirits that have extremely powerful magical spells and the ability to pass it down to their followers. It's sort of like Scientists discovering a species like the "Ancients" in Stargate.

After they meet them, any genuine miracle they encounter is going to be somewhat skeptically looked at.

MrNexx
2007-11-12, 04:26 AM
Because, in spite of evidence, not everyone is going to spend all their time thinking about the gods and what they mean in day to day life.

A fighter may offer prayers to the Fighter God when appropriate. He certainly thanks the god his cleric worships whenever he gets some healing. He then goes out for his ale and whores, and largely forgets about the gods, except to roundly curse them in the morning when his head hurts and he can't remember the name of the woman he's next to.

Now we have an adventuring cleric. He's mindful of other gods... he's not going to snub the sea goddess on an ocean voyage... but he prays to one particular deity the most, and sees most everything through that prism. He may go out for ale and whores with the fighter (they're friends after all), but he doesn't largely forget about the gods. His first round is offered up to his patron, for getting him through that last adventure. When he wakes up in the morning, unsure of his sleeping companion or the contents of his stomach, his reaction isn't to curse the gods, but to say "Sweet Purple Messiah*, what did I do last night?" or "Sweet Purple Messiah, I will never do that again... for at least a week."

It's a matter of attitude, reverence, and the degree to which the gods consume their lives.

*Or whatever the name of his deity is.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 04:44 AM
Neither of those examples have much to do with faith.

If a DM were to run a cleric's spells less like a class feature, and more like a Paladin's alignment, we may see clerics who value faith a little more.


DM: "You know, you really haven't been doing much for your deity. Certainly not in the way of the two domains you picked out for minmaxxing purposes. Tell you what, until you can show me how a cleric of undeath ought to behave, you're losing your turn attempts. Sorry."

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-12, 04:48 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My question has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?

Try Eberron. Religion isn't stupid in Eberron. It is in basic D&D, for many reasons. In some ways, one can question how you can even call it religion.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-12, 04:49 AM
Neither of those examples have much to do with faith.

If a DM were to run a cleric's spells less like a class feature, and more like a Paladin's alignment, we may see clerics who value faith a little more.


DM: "You know, you really haven't been doing much for your deity. Certainly not in the way of the two domains you picked out for minmaxxing purposes. Tell you what, until you can show me how a cleric of undeath ought to behave, you're losing your turn attempts. Sorry."

People don't do that? That's odd. I thought that was pretty standard with most games.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-12, 04:56 AM
As a general rule, I tend to be pretty lax about Alignment. I tend to run most "Paladins" as Clerics/Fighters.

"True" Paladins, on the other hand, have been chosen for the dubious honor of being the guy meant to deliver your deity's wrath vengeance on the world.

Rutee
2007-11-12, 05:05 AM
Neither of those examples have much to do with faith.

If a DM were to run a cleric's spells less like a class feature, and more like a Paladin's alignment, we may see clerics who value faith a little more.


DM: "You know, you really haven't been doing much for your deity. Certainly not in the way of the two domains you picked out for minmaxxing purposes. Tell you what, until you can show me how a cleric of undeath ought to behave, you're losing your turn attempts. Sorry."

What if we think Paladins live in a too-uptight fashion? I mean.. You seemed to kinda mean that more for abusing a deity's power, which is different, but I don't think that requiring terribly strict codes from PCs is very.. conducive to a fun story. So in short, it seems alignment when it has reason to be magically enforced (Paladins, Priests, etc) should be loosely enforced. Assuming my trust isn't being abused anyway. If the DM's trust is being abused, that's different :P

Tengu
2007-11-12, 05:09 AM
As a general rule, I tend to be pretty lax about Alignment. I tend to run most "Paladins" as Clerics/Fighters.

"True" Paladins, on the other hand, have been chosen for the dubious honor of being the guy meant to deliver your deity's wrath vengeance on the world.

The funny thing about this approach is that a cleric/fighter is usually a more powerful combatant than a paladin. Unless there's very few cleric levels there.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 05:10 AM
What if we think Paladins live in a too-uptight fashion? I mean.. You seemed to kinda mean that more for abusing a deity's power, which is different, but I don't think that requiring terribly strict codes from PCs is very.. conducive to a fun story. So in short, it seems alignment when it has reason to be magically enforced (Paladins, Priests, etc) should be loosely enforced. Assuming my trust isn't being abused anyway. If the DM's trust is being abused, that's different :P

I mean that clerics should both a) reflect the aspects of the deity they choose to worship and b) be faced with a very real chance of loosing their divine powers if they don't show enough faith. Simply having spells magically get prepared every 24hours as a class feature does well in removing the necessity of clerics to have any semblance of faith. Rather, they feel certain that they will get x many spells/day, just like the fighter has full BAB all the time. Such an atmosphere is hardly conducive to any sort of faith.

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-12, 05:18 AM
Service or faith? Because you seem to be talking about service, which doesn't require or necessarily follow from faith.

You can not even care whether or not your deity is real, but follow their commandments and serve their causes because it provides you with nice powers (and maybe because you agree with the causes).

On the other hand you can believe on the deepest level that your deity is real, right, and inherently righteous. And not do anything much about it beyond giving praise to them frequently.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 05:24 AM
Service or faith? Because you seem to be talking about service, which doesn't require or necessarily follow from faith.

You can not even care whether or not your deity is real, but follow their commandments and serve their causes because it provides you with nice powers (and maybe because you agree with the causes).

On the other hand you can believe on the deepest level that your deity is real, right, and inherently righteous. And not do anything much about it beyond giving praise to them frequently.

IMO, it takes both.

Rutee
2007-11-12, 05:26 AM
I mean that clerics should both a) reflect the aspects of the deity they choose to worship and b) be faced with a very real chance of loosing their divine powers if they don't show enough faith. Simply having spells magically get prepared every 24hours as a class feature does well in removing the necessity of clerics to have any semblance of faith. Rather, they feel certain that they will get x many spells/day, just like the fighter has full BAB all the time. Such an atmosphere is hardly conducive to any sort of faith.

Well... firstly, Actions speak louder then words. Second, a God's particular purview or what they do, or even their outlook on life, isn't always relevant to the situation at hand. The only way to display faith, when the outlook and purview simply aren't relevant to the situation, is to use up screentime on invocations and prayers and the like. It's irritating to the players, potentially including the cleric player if he didn't want to personally be a cleric.. and it's just lipservice. I'd rather faith be displayed by actions and general attitude, and kinda follow "Innocent until proven guilty". Acting counter to your deity might yield a problem, but not acting completely in line with them 24/7, not so much.

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-12, 05:41 AM
IMO, it takes both.
I'm not sure I see how it can. Faith in particular is a problem. For instance, what should a cleric of Boccob have faith in?

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 05:43 AM
I'm not sure I see how it can. Faith in particular is a problem. For instance, what should a cleric of Boccob have faith in?

Boccob. Faith that if the Cleric behaves in ways the Boccob likes, he'll be granted those spells.


Personally, I like to play clerics of either a violent deity, or evangelical one. Casting Command "Donate" while passing the collection plate is good times.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-12, 06:22 AM
The funny thing about this approach is that a cleric/fighter is usually a more powerful combatant than a paladin. Unless there's very few cleric levels there.

Paladins, being mostly PCs or legendary type folk, tend to get up very high level. Of course, I have the unusual quality that a tremendous number of heroic bands are lead by Bards as well. So my games tend not to be standard by any means.

;-)

sun_tzu
2007-11-12, 06:45 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My question has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?

Well, that one kinda depends on how you define faith. If you define it as "being convinced something is true despite having no evidence, then neither of these guys can be faithful (also, it'll mean that any faithful individual automatically becomes faithless the moment you show him evidence he might be right); if you define it as "having trust in [insert target of faith here] no matter what happens", then intellectual knowledge of the gods' "real ultimate power" isn't going to change the fact that very different levels of faith will exist.

random11
2007-11-12, 07:26 AM
There is a major difference between faith and devotion.

Roy described it much better then what I can in the third panel:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

Fishy
2007-11-12, 07:32 AM
Well, maybe 'faith' isn't the right word for it, but even if you know that the gods exist and are powerful, you can easily have different levels of devotion.

Take Boccob and Hextor, or similar. Followers of Boccob believe that true power comes from knowledge and study, Whereas Hextor's followers believe that true power is having a bigger sword than anyone else, and hitting people with it. Boccob exists, and grants power to followers, but his followers have tiny, tiny swords.

Matthew
2007-11-12, 08:37 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My question has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?

There is no iron clad fluff explanation for why a Cleric has Spells and a Fighter doesn't. What you describe is one possible interpretation, though not one I would subscribe to.

Faith in a Deity isn't just a matter of their existance. That they exist is plain to everyone. What is their nature and the extent of their power, is not so obvious. Nor is it certain that a Deity will help a mortal in a time of difficulty, a character must have faith that a Deity is willing to aid them.

Moreover, there is more to a Deity than displays of Clerical Magic. They are capable of affecting the world in ways that are otherwise imperceptable, bringing rain, sunlight, love, hate, plague and any other number of things. A character must have faith that the Deity will protect them from harm and give them aid in a more general sense than through Divine Magic.

Jayabalard
2007-11-12, 08:45 AM
I can understand how, out of two people –say a fighter and a cleric– who are equally religious one can be granted spells and the other not. It has to do with the time (and XP) spent strengthening the bond between a mortal and his divine power source. My question has to do with the lack of "Faith" in D&D: How can there be any variance in the amount of faith between any two people when it's obvious to anyone that the gods posess real ultimate power?It seems highly likely that there is less faith in D&D than in the real world; "Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It's where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more."

Freelance Henchman
2007-11-12, 08:52 AM
It seems highly likely that there is less faith in D&D than in the real world; Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It's where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more. Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It's where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more.

You said that twice. You said that twice.

:smallsmile:

Dausuul
2007-11-12, 08:54 AM
Neither of those examples have much to do with faith.

If a DM were to run a cleric's spells less like a class feature, and more like a Paladin's alignment, we may see clerics who value faith a little more.

DM: "You know, you really haven't been doing much for your deity. Certainly not in the way of the two domains you picked out for minmaxxing purposes. Tell you what, until you can show me how a cleric of undeath ought to behave, you're losing your turn attempts. Sorry."

Players often get resentful when you arbitrarily nix their class features. If you provide clear guidelines before the campaign starts for what clerics are expected to do--essentially creating a house rule for clerics along the lines of the paladin code, although hopefully better defined--that could work well, but if you just randomly announce that the cleric hasn't been "pious enough" (meaning, your idea of what the cleric's obligations are does not mesh with the player's) and take away his abilities, most cleric players are going to be justifiably upset with you.

If you don't feel like the cleric is living up to the standards you feel a cleric ought to, it's much better to talk to the player out of game and work something out than it is to have rocks fall. At the very least offer a warning and a chance to change before you start laying the smack down.

(If I am mischaracterizing your approach, I apologize, but I've seen too many DMs who think that just up and saying, in essence, "Gotcha! You lose your class features!" is exactly the thing to do.)

Roderick_BR
2007-11-12, 11:06 AM
In most medieval fantasy games, there's not such a thing as "atheist".
One good example would be that Hercules series, where everyone knows about monsters and gods. They take their lives as normal, and when something happens, like a monster going wild, or a bored deity coming to earth to cause destruction, people just duck for cover and waits it to end.
Or like Conan. He calls for Crom's name as an expression, and he knows the god exists, but he also know that Crom is not a deity that interfere in mortal affairs, so he mostly ignores him.
Wizards will often believe in gods, and recognize divine magic. They'll just ignore them. They may worship none, but won't deny the existence.
An alternative is the "write mage" approach, where clerics are a kind of "divine wizard", and they don't actually gain power from gods, but learn spells in religious organizations.

Selv
2007-11-12, 11:20 AM
I don't really see why the "White Mage" theory couldn't be held by Joe Commoner. Yes, Jozan can Create Water or whatever, but so can Mary and she's a cleric of Marxism. So can Jim, and he's an Archivist or something.

In fact, someone might argue, the incredible panoply of radically different theologies that give rise to basically identical clerical powers rather suggest that it's all just another flavour of this magic stuff that's floating around. That they believe it's a gift from their deity doesn't really distinguish them from a large fraction of musicians and athletes.

Of course, in D&D, it's possible for Oldimarra to break into your house and help himself to your drinks cabinet, but how many NPCs ever have such adventures?

Karma Guard
2007-11-12, 11:30 AM
The main difference to me has always been in faith. Sure, a Fighter will toss a god a prayer or two and is generally faithful, but a Cleric is always faithful, acting as an active arm of his faith. A Fighter knows of the god, a Cleric *knows* the god.

Reasons for not being faithful? There's always the 'He failed me when I needed him most'. Gods are fallible. D&D gods are less omnipotent and more good old Grecian style 'Zeus how could you!'. Gods are also just kinda jerks. There's a whole Sigil faction devoted to basically 'the gods are just really, really high-level PCs, why should we worship them PS your religion sucks'. There's also the fact that, in D&D, you can go and visit god corpses.

I'm running a Githyanki paladin, and his big thing is struggling to understand how a god really works and trusting and believing in him as a god, not just a high-level wizard who really likes him and can do amazing things with that spell that gives spells to people. Faith does funny things to a member of an mostly atheistic race. :smallcool:

Techonce
2007-11-12, 11:32 AM
Faith and devotion are a little differnt in a world where the Gods make frequent displays of power.

IN FR, the gods actually walked the earth in the recent past, so most everyone beleives in them.

In our terms on earth in the real world, faith is believing in something that can't exactly be proven. Thus the definition of faith.

Now devotion is a bit different. It is following a religion or set of beliefs. I can believe the gods exist, but I don't have to follwo them. In FR, people devote themselves to a single god, or a few like gods, but not all of them.

As for the cleric and Fighter. The difference is the amount of devotion. THe cleric spends a bit mroe time performing rituals then the fighter. If the fighter did as much then he should take a level in cleric instead of fighter. Or if the connection requires a few rites or a special connection to the god then he might need to do that to gain access. the cleric either had then happen in the past or was specifically chosen by the god.

As for clerics that follow a set of beliefs instead of a god. well that's just ridiculus...

Matthew
2007-11-12, 11:40 AM
Faith and devotion are a little differnt in a world where the Gods make frequent displays of power.

IN FR, the gods actually walked the earth in the recent past, so most everyone beleives in them.

In our terms on earth in the real world, faith is believing in something that can't exactly be proven. Thus the definition of faith.

Nah, that's just one element of faith. Faith in the existence of a Deity is just the necessary foundation for having faith in the nature of a Deity. It's possible to have faith that a Deity exists without having faith that he will help you or is 'good', truthful or that he is worth worshipping. A Priest or Cleric needs to have faith in all of those things.

Darkxarth
2007-11-12, 11:46 AM
The real answer here doesn't have anything to do with level of devotion or faith. It has to do with what the character wants.

A Cleric wakes up in the morning (or whenever) says his prayers, and then requests that his god grants him extensive magical abilities to carry out his duties to said god.

A Fighter wakes up in the morning (or whenever) says his prayers, and then requests that his god watches over him and guides his actions so that they fulfill his duties to said god.

The moment the Fighter starts praying to his god to grant him magical powers, that character starts multi-classing into a Cleric (or Favored Soul or Paladin or whatever).

That, in my opinion, is the difference between the Cleric worshipper and the Fighter worshipper. Both can have the exact same amount of devotion, pray for the same length of time, donate the same amount to the church, go on the same holy (or unholy) quests. The only difference is in how they ask their god to help them in their duties.

- DX

Freelance Henchman
2007-11-12, 11:54 AM
The moment the Fighter starts praying to his god to grant him magical powers, that character starts multi-classing into a Cleric (or Favored Soul or Paladin or whatever).

Is it enough to just ask? Are Clerics always chosen individually by the deity, or are there entire dynasties of people who's father was a cleric, and the son will grow up to be one because that's they all get sent to Cleric U.

Darkxarth
2007-11-12, 12:02 PM
Is it enough to just ask? Are Clerics always chosen individually by the deity, or are there entire dynasties of people who's father was a cleric, and the son will grow up to be one because that's they all get sent to Cleric U.

If the Fighter is praying everyday for an hour, over the entire course of his career, and he one day decided that to best serve his god he might need to starting utilizing divine magic, I'd say yes, the deity would heavily consider granting said character divine magic. Now, as a DM I'd rule that he'd need to start changing his morning (or whenever) prayer before the party gained experience to level up, just like I would with any multiclass change.

I don't care for the spontaneous, "Hm, I'd like to be a Wizard now!" class-change unless I'm running a very role-play light game.

- DX

Draz74
2007-11-12, 12:28 PM
People don't do that? That's odd. I thought that was pretty standard with most games.

People don't do it much in many games because, while it's good for game balance, it's not very fun. Nobody wants to play a Cleric if the character has to be so strictly religion-focused that he doesn't have any interesting individual character, and I guess it can be hard for DMs and players to agree on where exactly that line is. But the DM doesn't want to ruin the Cleric's playing experience by taking away the things that make him cool.

Techonce
2007-11-12, 12:40 PM
Now athiests would be quite rare in a world that has active gods.

I'm sure you would have a few, but that's kind of delusional. Kind of like people who think the world is flat in RL. There are some, but a small minority.

You would have several that beleive in gods, but either think that they don't impact your life, or don't care to worship any of them at all, and the result of this stance depends on your world.

Serenity
2007-11-12, 12:54 PM
I believe Valygar puts it best when he explains his belief to Aerie. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the game right now, so I'll have to summarize:

Sure, the gods exist. Or, to be more accurate, very powerful beings exist that call themselves gods. Does that necessarily mean we should give them worship? There are gods who used to be mortal, so there is nothing inherently infallible about them that demands respect. There are evil gods, so there is nothing inherently good or worthy in divinity.

So, yeah, there are no atheists in a game with active gods. Doesn't mean everyone has faith.

Jayabalard
2007-11-12, 01:05 PM
Now athiests would be quite rare in a world that has active gods.

I'm sure you would have a few, but that's kind of delusional. Kind of like people who think the world is flat in RL. There are some, but a small minority.They wouldn't need to be delusional... they'd just have to have not had any direct interaction with them.

The_Werebear
2007-11-12, 01:07 PM
Two things that might be helpful, both perspective and RP wise.

First: The view of the Wizards in the Discworld series is probably a good one to model after here. I roughly semi quote "The wizards know the gods exist like they know tables exist. They just see no point in encouraging them." (Sorry to all Pratchett fans who can quote that line exactly).

Second: A character I am playing, A halfling Paragon / Druidic Avenger. The party has landed on a strange continent. The halfling paragon watches the druid be amazingly effective in the wild environment. He has always liked nature, but never had a particular devotion. He wants to tame it more than to live in it. However, he goes to the druid, makes the particular oaths, and swears to protect nature. In return, the druid teaches him how to channel Druidic magic and do other such things. He still hardly worships nature, and he still views himself as a tamer more than a servant, but so long as he observes the correct rituals and doesn't violate nature, nature continues to grant him powers.

Basically, so long as your actions line up with your deity's dogma, they would continue to grant spells. Devotion is measured in action, not thought. If you learn to channel the magic and don't offend the source, then you are good.

JadedDM
2007-11-12, 02:40 PM
People don't do that? That's odd. I thought that was pretty standard with most games.

I've always done that, myself. Clerics all have a certain set of laws to follow, they're just not as strict as a paladin's. Basically, they must believe and praise their deity, they must do whatever is in their deity's best interest (a cleric of the god of peace can't kill, a cleric of the god of love can't destroy a relationship), and they must maintain whatever alignment their god prefers (which is usually broader than a paladin, like "good" as opposed to "Lawful Good" specifically).

If clerics don't uphold their part of the bargain, they get a couple of warnings and then start losing prayers or powers (starting with the most powerful).

Charles Phipps
2007-11-12, 03:00 PM
Odd thing that I remembered that was relevant.

One of the fun things in our game was the fact that a Lawful Neutral Fighter was sorta pre-destined to eventually become the God of the Dead in our campaign.

One of the players decided to actually make a LG Cleric of said God.

Hence, there was this constant tension in the fact that the Cleric was dealing with someone who was hardly the paragon of saintliness in his mortal life.

Techonce
2007-11-12, 03:54 PM
They wouldn't need to be delusional... they'd just have to have not had any direct interaction with them.

I've never been to China, but I would be delusion to believe it's not there.

It depends on the amount of interaction between the gods and their world. In FR, a person who doesn't beleive in gods would be delusional. There is too much evidence that they exist.

Take a world that has less direct interaction, ie Earth and you wouldn't be considered delusional.

I guess it also depends on how you define faith. I always put it in terms of believing whether or not they exist, but if you add in the gods goals and motivations then my previous stance would be wrong.

In fact I'm probably going to rethink how I view that now...

:smalleek: ouch. I tried to change pardigmn's without signalling!

CoolMatthew
2007-11-12, 03:59 PM
Wow thanks for all the replies! So to summarize:

Your faith in your god is how much you trust them to help when they are needed?

Jayabalard
2007-11-12, 04:25 PM
I've never been to China, but I would be delusion to believe it's not there.

It depends on the amount of interaction between the gods and their world. In FR, a person who doesn't beleive in gods would be delusional. There is too much evidence that they exist.
You have probably seen pictures of there, even live TV of things in China, or met people from china. So that's probably not a good example.

If a character has never spoken to a burning bush, and noone that they know has spoken to a burning bush, then they don't need to be delusional to doubt the existence of the gods.... and it's possible to have that situation, even in FR.

MrNexx
2007-11-12, 04:48 PM
Of course, then you have races like the Beastmen (from 1st/2nd edition Greyhawk) who are naturally non-magical... in 2e terms, they had 80%, non-suppressable, Magic Resistance; it would be about 16 + HD SR in 3e, without the ability to suppress it for helpful effects. They don't believe in magic, or gods, or spirits, or anything like that, because it frequently doesn't work on them.