Stacking Multiple Polymorphs for more HP (seems to be legal at least in vanilla/RAW)

[MaxWilson]

A discussion on Pixie CR led me to the realization that according to the rules on combining magical effects, I think you can technically stack Polymorph spells for extra HP.

Combining magical effects:

The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect - such as the highest bonus - from those castings applies while their durations overlap.
For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice.

So, we know that multiple instances of the same spell can overlap in duration, including multiple Polymorph spells.

Polymorph:

The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.

So, it appears that if you have a 7th level PC Xenon who gets Polymorphed by Alice into a Giant Ape, and then Bob Polymorphs the Giant Ape into a Triceratops, Cecil Polymorphs the Triceratops into a Hulking Crab, and Dan Polymorphs the Hulking Crab into a Triceratops, the result appears to be a Triceratops that you have to kill as a Triceratops, a Hulking Crab, another Triceratops, and a Giant Ape before you can even wound the original Xenon form.

Outside the Pixies scenario this would seem to be a pretty niche trick of limited utility, but at least under RAW I think it would actually work, which is interesting.

Does anyone see something I'm missing that would unambiguously prevent this?

[noob]

If you revert by virtue of dropping to 0 it is a valid interpretation of raw to say that all the polymorphs cancels at once and so you lose all the life granted by all those polymorphes.

[JackPhoenix]

You've bolded the wrong part of the first quote, the bolded part talks about different spells, the part that talk about the same spell is worded the same, but it's at the end of the first paragraph.

Anyway, there's this part of Polymorph: "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies." If the target drops to 0... even in the polymorphed form... all transformations end at the same time.

[MaxWilson]

If you revert by virtue of dropping to 0 it is a valid interpretation of raw to say that all the polymorphs cancels at once and so you lose all the life granted by all those polymorphes.

Hmmm. Suppose, arguendo, that it is so. Can't Dan just drop his concentration when you get sort of near-ish to 0 HP on one Triceratops form, and achieve the same thing anyway? Since Dan's Polymorph is no longer in effect, you turn back into a Hulking Crab => Triceratops => Giant Ape => Xenon.

[follacchioso]

Lol, you could have a wall in your lair with several glyphs of warding adjacent to each other, so you can polymorph yourself in all these creatures as a chain.

Jokes aside, I think only the most recent effect would apply, for the same rules that you cited above ( eg a character cannot benefit from multiple bless spells from different clerics)

[MaxWilson]

Lol, you could have a wall in your lair with several glyphs of warding adjacent to each other, so you can polymorph yourself in all these creatures as a chain.

Jokes aside, I think only the most recent effect would apply, for the same rules that you cited above ( eg a character cannot benefit from multiple bless spells from different clerics)

But then difference is that when Bless ends, it leaves no effects behind. When Polymorph ends, "the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed". So stacking Blesses is pointless, but standing Polymorphs gives extra HP as long as you can arrange for only one Polymorph to end at a time (such as by having Dan stop concentrating).

There are even totally bizarre and off-the-wall combinations where by strict RAW you could theoretically wind up as e.g. a Hulking Crab with the hit points of a Giant Ape, just by ending Bob's concentration instead of Dan's. I'm ignoring those possibilities because they're destructive to suspension of disbelief (a.k.a. stupid cheese), and no reasonable DM would let that fly (you'd just get into an argument about the meaning of "return"), but I think ending Dan's concentration is kosher enough to be worth discussing.

[cookieface]

A discussion on Pixie CR led me to the realization that according to the rules on combining magical effects, I think you can technically stack Polymorph spells for extra HP.

Combining magical effects:

The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect - such as the highest bonus - from those castings applies while their durations overlap.
For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell’s benefit only once; he or she doesn’t get to roll two bonus dice.

So, we know that multiple instances of the same spell can overlap in duration, including multiple Polymorph spells.

Polymorph:

The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.

So, it appears that if you have a 7th level PC Xenon who gets Polymorphed by Alice into a Giant Ape, and then Bob Polymorphs the Giant Ape into a Triceratops, Cecil Polymorphs the Triceratops into a Hulking Crab, and Dan Polymorphs the Hulking Crab into a Triceratops, the result appears to be a Triceratops that you have to kill as a Triceratops, a Hulking Crab, another Triceratops, and a Giant Ape before you can even wound the original Xenon form.

Outside the Pixies scenario this would seem to be a pretty niche trick of limited utility, but at least under RAW I think it would actually work, which is interesting.

Does anyone see something I'm missing that would unambiguously prevent this?

The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine

If you cast Polymorph on the same creature a second time, only one transformation -- "the most potent effect" (however your PCs and/or DM interpret that) -- takes effect. So transforming Xenon into a Giant Ape and then a Triceratops would mean that Xenon is still only one layer away ... whether that top layer is Giant Ape or Triceratops I would leave up to Xenon, if I were DMing.

There's an interpretation here that a player could concentrate on a spell that has no effect (such as if a Druid casts Hold Person but it fails, they could continue to concentrate on it even though its effect is over), but that is quite a stretch.

[Willie the Duck]

The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies.

It seems that there are three clearly-explained ways to end this effect. We've already established a grey area for dropping to 0 hp (I'd also read it as strongly implying that hitting 0 turns you into your 'normal form' regardless of stacked polymorph). What about the others? Dying I think rules out worrying about other polymorphs (although it'd be an interesting case where the DM to rule otherwise :smalltongue:). Ending the duration -- I forget, is Dan just dropping his concentration work the same as duration ending? If not, it could be a rules dead-zone and I'd argue that yeah the effects stacking language should step in. What about dispells/antimagic?

[Unoriginal]

The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine

If you cast Polymorph on the same creature a second time, only one transformation -- "the most potent effect" (however your PCs and/or DM interpret that) -- takes effect. So transforming Xenon into a Giant Ape and then a Triceratops would mean that Xenon is still only one layer away ... whether that top layer is Giant Ape or Triceratops I would leave up to Xenon, if I were DMing.

There's an interpretation here that a player could concentrate on a spell that has no effect (such as if a Druid casts Hold Person but it fails, they could continue to concentrate on it even though its effect is over), but that is quite a stretch.

Indeed.

Now one could ask: what if two different spells are used, like Polymorph and True Polymorph?

[nickl_2000]

Indeed.

Now one could ask: what if two different spells are used, like Polymorph and True Polymorph?

True Polymorph, Wild Shape, Polymorph, then Shapechange.



Then just for fun, walk into an anti-magic field to see if you can make the DM explode thinking it all through.

[MaxWilson]

The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine

If you cast Polymorph on the same creature a second time, only one transformation -- "the most potent effect" (however your PCs and/or DM interpret that) -- takes effect. So transforming Xenon into a Giant Ape and then a Triceratops would mean that Xenon is still only one layer away ... whether that top layer is Giant Ape or Triceratops I would leave up to Xenon, if I were DMing.

There's an interpretation here that a player could concentrate on a spell that has no effect (such as if a Druid casts Hold Person but it fails, they could continue to concentrate on it even though its effect is over), but that is quite a stretch.

The durations of the spells are unambiguously allowed to overlap (even in the example, the second Bless doesn't fail) which BTW is relevant to things like multiple Hold Person casters.

So I reject the idea you're proponing here that Alice's spell (Giant Ape) ends when Bob casts his spell (Triceratops). Once Bob's spell ends, Alice's spell will still be in effect.


It seems that there are three clearly-explained ways to end this effect. We've already established a grey area for dropping to 0 hp (I'd also read it as strongly implying that hitting 0 turns you into your 'normal form' regardless of stacked polymorph). What about the others? Dying I think rules out worrying about other polymorphs (although it'd be an interesting case where the DM to rule otherwise :smalltongue:). Ending the duration -- I forget, is Dan just dropping his concentration work the same as duration ending? If not, it could be a rules dead-zone and I'd argue that yeah the effects stacking language should step in. What about dispells/antimagic?

Yes, when Dan ceases concentrating the duration is over (1 hour, concentration), so it's not a rules-dead zone: the spell ends and he returns to the number of HP he had before Dan's spell.

[JackPhoenix]

True Polymorph, Wild Shape, Polymorph, then Shapechange.

You need to start with Wild Shape or Shapechange. You'll lose your class abilities when you use Polymorph or TP, so no wildshaping afterwards.
.

[nickl_2000]

You need to start with Wild Shape or Shapechange. You'll lose your class abilities when you use Polymorph or TP, so no wildshaping afterwards.
.

Fair, although you could True Polymorph into something that can cast Shapechange (are there any official monsters that can cast shapechange?) Either way, you would need to start with Wild Shape :)

[MaxWilson]

Fair, although you could True Polymorph into something that can cast Shapechange (are there any official monsters that can cast shapechange?) Either way, you would need to start with Wild Shape :)

There are monsters like Adult Silver Dragons with a Change Shape ability.


Change Shape: The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).

In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.

[noob]

Hmmm. Suppose, arguendo, that it is so. Can't Dan just drop his concentration when you get sort of near-ish to 0 HP on one Triceratops form, and achieve the same thing anyway? Since Dan's Polymorph is no longer in effect, you turn back into a Hulking Crab => Triceratops => Giant Ape => Xenon.

It would probably work but it is a reasonable effect for the cost of having 4 casters casting a spell on one person and the risk to lose all the spells at once if the opponent deals too much sudden damage.

[Mellack]

The rules say you cannot have effects stack (PHB The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine). I would rule that effect 1 (being polymorphed into a new creature) would just be overwrote by effect 2 being polymorphed into a new creature). Seems the same effect to me.

[MaxWilson]

The rules say you cannot have effects stack (PHB The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine). I would rule that effect 1 (being polymorphed into a new creature) would just be overwrote by effect 2 being polymorphed into a new creature). Seems the same effect to me.

That rule only applies while the durations overlap though. Once polymorph 2 ends, polymorph 1's effect resumes.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The durations of the spells are unambiguously allowed to overlap (even in the example, the second Bless doesn't fail) which BTW is relevant to things like multiple Hold Person casters.

So I reject the idea you're proponing here that Alice's spell (Giant Ape) ends when Bob casts his spell (Triceratops). Once Bob's spell ends, Alice's spell will still be in effect.

I second this.


One thought that has struck me, is that if someone were to Mutate, (MTG style), into one of the subsequent forms due to damage, by a strict reading of the Polymorph spell, the excess damage is not transferred to the new form, but is instead assed to your normal form.

That could wind up being quite a bit of damage, when you finally turn back into your normal form. I like it!

Cool idea Max! Thanks for bringing it up!

[Narsham01]

Polymorph:

The target assumes the Hit Points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of Hit Points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 Hit Points, it isn't knocked Unconscious.

So, it appears that if you have a 7th level PC Xenon who gets Polymorphed by Alice into a Giant Ape, and then Bob Polymorphs the Giant Ape into a Triceratops, Cecil Polymorphs the Triceratops into a Hulking Crab, and Dan Polymorphs the Hulking Crab into a Triceratops, the result appears to be a Triceratops that you have to kill as a Triceratops, a Hulking Crab, another Triceratops, and a Giant Ape before you can even wound the original Xenon form.

Outside the Pixies scenario this would seem to be a pretty niche trick of limited utility, but at least under RAW I think it would actually work, which is interesting.

Does anyone see something I'm missing that would unambiguously prevent this?

The phrase I think you've missed is the phrase "When it reverts to its normal form." A polymorphed form is, by definition, not a creature's normal form. So in your overlapping Polymorph example, Xenon gets reduced to 0 hp as a Triceratops. RAW, the transformation ends because the Xenon dropped to 0 hit points. He turns into a Hulking Crab. But he does not return to the number of HP he had before the transformation, because he is not in his normal form. Given that his HP did not change, he still has 0 hit points. That causes the Polymorph spell Dan cast to end as well, and so on until all the Polymorph spells end and he returns to his normal form, at which point Xenon reverts to the number of hit points he had before Alice cast Polymorph and suffers any excess damage.

Curiously, if Dan loses concentration on the spell, Xenon may retain his Triceratops hit points when the next Polymorph spell returns in effect, because he hasn't reverted to his normal form and therefore his hit points do not change. So, RAW, you could use this to get a very high hit point dog (for example) by stacking Polymorph spells, though conversely, a hostile caster could drop an additional Polymorph on Xenon to drop his beast forms to 1 hit point.

This approach would also allow you to boost a druid's Wild Shape hit points by casting Polymorph into a higher hit point form and then dropping it, because a druid's Wild Shape is explicitly not that druid's "normal form."

Note that the reverse approach still works: if the Giant Ape is badly hurt, Bob can Polymorph it into a Triceratops and the hit points get set to the Triceratops' maximum. If Bob immediately stopped concentrating, the Ape would suddenly have the hit points of an unwounded Triceratops.

[MaxWilson]

Curiously, if Dan loses concentration on the spell, Xenon may retain his Triceratops hit points when the next Polymorph spell returns in effect, because he hasn't reverted to his normal form and therefore his hit points do not change. So, RAW, you could use this to get a very high hit point dog (for example) by stacking Polymorph spells, though conversely, a hostile caster could drop an additional Polymorph on Xenon to drop his beast forms to 1 hit point.

This approach would also allow you to boost a druid's Wild Shape hit points by casting Polymorph into a higher hit point form and then dropping it, because a druid's Wild Shape is explicitly not that druid's "normal form."

Note that the reverse approach still works: if the Giant Ape is badly hurt, Bob can Polymorph it into a Triceratops and the hit points get set to the Triceratops' maximum. If Bob immediately stopped concentrating, the Ape would suddenly have the hit points of an unwounded Triceratops.

As I said above, I'm explicitly ignoring this interpretation of the rules because I think no sane DM will ever use it, although they may laugh at it when you tell them about it.

[quindraco]

Curiously, if Dan loses concentration on the spell, Xenon may retain his Triceratops hit points when the next Polymorph spell returns in effect, because he hasn't reverted to his normal form and therefore his hit points do not change.

I disagree with this interpretation of "normal" form. You're assuming "normal" form is the same as "original" form, but Polymorph reads to me like the RAI is for "normal" to simply mean "previous". Without this interpretation of "normal", and instead using yours, True Polymorph makes spell resolution impossible: you could True Polymorph a human into an elf permanently, and then Polymorphs on it will never resolve properly, because its "normal" form is human, which it can't return to - when the spell ends, it returns to its old form. To back up this theory, Polymorph's rules block consistently uses the words "new" and "normal" as if they were opposites.

I think the only sane way to resolve this is, again, to treat all references to "normal form" in Polymorph as "previous form" to avoid pathological interactions with other spells that may have changed the creature's form already, such as reincarnate or true polymorph.

As for multiple polymorphs, I would interpret "most powerful" as the polymorph with the highest CR, breaking ties with greatest spellcasting modifier, breaking ties with newest polymorph (i.e. most duration remaining) wins.

[Aimeryan]

It is worth noting that the effect is largely just four consecutive polymorphs, cast by four different casters using the appropriate spell slots. The only gains are the action economy of using the actions before combat (something that given the duration of Polymorph is not unexpected of the spell, anyway), and the seemless nature (so no turns in original form).

This does come at a loss; not having concurrent castings on four different targets - four loyal dogs, perhaps. Honestly, I think the concurrent castings are way more powerful.

[Mellack]

I think a simpler description of "normal" form is being your permanent form. TP can change your permanent form, where polymorph cannot.

[bid]

Yes, when Dan ceases concentrating the duration is over (1 hour, concentration), so it's not a rules-dead zone: the spell ends and he returns to the number of HP he had before Dan's spell.
Even crazier, if Alice stops concentrating the whole stack ends, right?

[PattThe]

Even crazier, if Alice stops concentrating the whole stack ends, right?

*rolls wild magic surge check regardless of class of the caster*


*consults Tasha's wild magic storm table*

[MaxWilson]

It is worth noting that the effect is largely just four consecutive polymorphs, cast by four different casters using the appropriate spell slots. The only gains are the action economy of using the actions before combat (something that given the duration of Polymorph is not unexpected of the spell, anyway), and the seemless nature (so no turns in original form).

This does come at a loss; not having concurrent castings on four different targets - four loyal dogs, perhaps. Honestly, I think the concurrent castings are way more powerful.

The fact that you can drop concentration at any time, no actions required, is significant.

As far as uses, I'm thinking of this from the evil DM perspective, like multi-Polymorphed creature (actually a Pixie prank) that just keeps successively unwinding into stronger and stronger forms.