Use Your Illusions

[Catullus64]

Cheese title, I know. Couldn't help myself.

I've been playing a Rogue 3/Bard 1. Just hit Level 5 on Sunday night. Took Rogue 4, and decided on the Eldritch Adept feat. Namely, Misty Visions, my all-time favorite Warlock invocation. Now, my character already has Minor Illusion. I'm curious to get a read on what other DMs would think about the following interaction, whereby I attempt to use these two spells in tandem for a "budget Major Image."

Step 1: From a place of hiding, use Minor Illusion to create a sound only, of footsteps or other appropriate creature noise, coming from around a corner or down a hallway. So far, nothing to rule on.

Step 2: Secondly, create a Silent Image to walk around said corner, in a form suggested by the sound which preceded it. So far, so RAW.

Step 3: Here's where I think RAW no longer explicitly covers what I intend to do, and I require my DM to make an actual ruling. Silent Image allows you use your action to move the image, making its movements appear natural as if it were real, explicitly calling out the example of a creature walking. Minor Illusion (Duration 1 minute, no concentration, and says I can make "discrete sounds" throughout the duration of the spell) is still active at this point.

Can I make the creature's ambient motions and movements match the sounds that I create? I'm not suggesting I should be able to sync its mouth in time with speech, that seems a little much. But what about more ambient sounds? Snarls, footsteps, breathing, or other sounds appropriate to its form (like the crackling of flames on an Azer, or the clanking of heavy armor)?

Adjacent query: Would you say that an illusion of a spectral ghost is immediately revealed as an illusion just because something passes through it?

[Segev]

Personally, I would run these as you seem to wish them run. The "poor man's Major Image" is well within the allowed rules, and the point of being revealed by physical interaction is that the impossibility reveals something to be fake. If physical reaction would expect the thing to be intangible, it wouldn't reveal anything to see a thing going through it.

[jaappleton]

Cheese title, I know. Couldn't help myself.


Best title. Make no apologies for it.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Best title. Make no apologies for it.

IMHO better use of the words than the title of the forgettable place it came from. No need to apologize just because you were born in another century.

[Catullus64]

While I've got people's attention, a few more illusion-related things popped into my head.

First of all, I think that the clause of Silent Image which says that "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image" actually makes Silent Image vastly superior to the same-level spell Fog Cloud. Drop a Fog Cloud on yourself to hide you from enemy ranged attackers, and, thanks to the oft-chided way that unseen attackers work in D&D, the attackers still have normal to-hit rolls. Drop a Silent Image of a Fog Cloud on yourself, however, and suddenly said ranged attackers can't see you, but you, who created the illusion and thus disbelieve it, can see them. And unlike Fog Cloud, anyone can now get at-will Silent Image through a feat!

This one's another ruling query: Let's say I use Silent Image to create the illusion of a 15-by-15 foot area of caltrops on the ground. If a creature (let's assume they didn't see me casting the spell, or I trick them into thinking I cast Gilgalion's Lesser Caltrops) moves through the area of the illusion at half speed to avoid taking damage from the "caltrops", do they reveal them to be illusory, since they're deliberately avoiding contact with the caltrops?

[Unoriginal]

Cheese title, I know. Couldn't help myself.

I've been playing a Rogue 3/Bard 1. Just hit Level 5 on Sunday night. Took Rogue 4, and decided on the Eldritch Adept feat. Namely, Misty Visions, my all-time favorite Warlock invocation. Now, my character already has Minor Illusion. I'm curious to get a read on what other DMs would think about the following interaction, whereby I attempt to use these two spells in tandem for a "budget Major Image."

Step 1: From a place of hiding, use Minor Illusion to create a sound only, of footsteps or other appropriate creature noise, coming from around a corner or down a hallway. So far, nothing to rule on.

Step 2: Secondly, create a Silent Image to walk around said corner, in a form suggested by the sound which preceded it. So far, so RAW.

Step 3: Here's where I think RAW no longer explicitly covers what I intend to do, and I require my DM to make an actual ruling. Silent Image allows you use your action to move the image, making its movements appear natural as if it were real, explicitly calling out the example of a creature walking. Minor Illusion (Duration 1 minute, no concentration, and says I can make "discrete sounds" throughout the duration of the spell) is still active at this point.

Can I make the creature's ambient motions and movements match the sounds that I create? I'm not suggesting I should be able to sync its mouth in time with speech, that seems a little much. But what about more ambient sounds? Snarls, footsteps, breathing, or other sounds appropriate to its form (like the crackling of flames on an Azer, or the clanking of heavy armor)?

I would likely ask for a CHA check with proficiency in Deception.

Same way that if someone used Silent Image to make a creature appears and another character was the one providing the sounds through non-magical means.

[Segev]

As long as nothing gives away the illusion, illusory fog is a great use of the spell. And if they are avoiding interaction to avoid damage, they will not get the benefit of interaction. Of course, if they see you ignore them and step on one at goes through your foot without injuring it, that will reveal the illusion.

Fun trick: scatter real cantrips and then put illusory ones out. Deliberately step on a fake one to try to trick enemies into thinking they're all illusory.

[Unoriginal]

As long as nothing gives away the illusion, illusory fog is a great use of the spell. And if they are avoiding interaction to avoid damage, they will not get the benefit of interaction. Of course, if they see you ignore them and step on one at goes through your foot without injuring it, that will reveal the illusion.

Fun trick: scatter real cantrips and then put illusory ones out. Deliberately step on a fake one to try to trick enemies into thinking they're all illusory.

Can also be a fun way to hide treasure and other valuables in plain sight.

[da newt]

I'm of the opinion that an illusion of fog cloud is near perfect because you can't say that your interaction with it shows it to be untrue ...

[Catullus64]

I'm of the opinion that an illusion of fog cloud is near perfect because you can't say that your interaction with it shows it to be untrue ...

Within limits, I suppose. Smoke and fog still respond to putting your hand through them. While creating the illusion over top of yourself doesn't (I think) reveal that the fog is illusory, stepping in and out of it probably would, since they can see that the fog isn't parting or being moved by you. Likewise, creating fog on top of the enemy would probably reveal itself immediately.

[Imbalance]

Step 1: From a place of hiding, use Minor Illusion to create a sound only, of footsteps or other appropriate creature noise, coming from around a corner or down a hallway. So far, nothing to rule on.
"Just walkin' through time"


Step 2: Secondly, create a Silent Image to walk around said corner, in a form suggested by the sound which preceded it. So far, so RAW.
"'Can you believe this heat?'"


Drop a Silent Image of a Fog Cloud on yourself, however, and suddenly said ranged attackers can't see you, but you, who created the illusion and thus disbelieve it, can see them.
"Another empty house"


This one's another ruling query: Let's say I use Silent Image to create the illusion of a 15-by-15 foot area of caltrops on the ground. If a creature (let's assume they didn't see me casting the spell, or I trick them into thinking I cast Gilgalion's Lesser Caltrops) moves through the area of the illusion at half speed to avoid taking damage from the "caltrops", do they reveal them to be illusory, since they're deliberately avoiding contact with the caltrops?
"Another dead-end street"

Let the bard be your guide.

[Joe the Rat]

The only place where I would give you a little pain is that the minor illusion sound is at a fixed point per casting. You can shift your illusion around, but the sound origin does not. Most of the time, that shouldn't be a big issue - having it near, and with enough ambient noise, it shouldn't be too discernable. Maybe I roll a Wis(Perception) check to see if an NPC notices something off, prompting an action-eating Int(Investigation) check. Taking the time to have your illusion mull about within the 15 foot cube, and use your action to recast MI in a new location is a bit of planning, but really the best illusions are all about planning.

Although this does bring up a question: We have moving illusions, but does anyone see an issue with starting a Silent Image that doesn't have anything in it initially? Say, your illusion does nothing for five seconds, then a (15 foot long) wall of stone rises from the ground? That would let you cast your illusion, then next round cast the minor illusion of the sound of rock bursting forth from the ground.

[Catullus64]

Although this does bring up a question: We have moving illusions, but does anyone see an issue with starting a Silent Image that doesn't have anything in it initially? Say, your illusion does nothing for five seconds, then a (15 foot long) wall of stone rises from the ground? That would let you cast your illusion, then next round cast the minor illusion of the sound of rock bursting forth from the ground.

Difficult to say, I think there's definitely a grey area. The spell doesn't explicitly allow you to alter the nature of the illusion beyond movements that are "natural to the image." That could mean a lot of things.

The Illusionist Wizard's 6th level feature, Malleable Illusions, definitely implies that you ordinarily need a separate casting to make the image really change into something distinct, and the particular image you cite seems to fall within that. Much less of a problem for Warlocks and Warlock-borrowers like me, with as many castings of the spell as they have actions.

At any rate, such behavior as you describe would, even if permissible, definitely fall under the sort of movement for which you need to spend an action manipulating the illusion, and thus I don't think you can really sync it perfectly with a casting of Minor Illusion.

[Sparky McDibben]

So, silent image requires verbal and somatic components. I'd probably require you to go pick up specialized training from whatever entity gave you the invocation in order to cast it as though by Subtle Spell, thereby making that either an adventure or a downtime activity.

[Catullus64]

So, silent image requires verbal and somatic components. I'd probably require you to go pick up specialized training from whatever entity gave you the invocation in order to cast it as though by Subtle Spell, thereby making that either an adventure or a downtime activity.

What about the usages articulated here indicate the need for Subtle Spell? I don't see how verbal and somatic components get in the way of the intended applications.

[Sparky McDibben]

What about the usages articulated here indicate the need for Subtle Spell? I don't see how verbal and somatic components get in the way of the intended applications.

Depends on if you're casting these where enemies can see you casting, if you're attempting to maintain stealth, if the enemies have a spellcaster with them or are trained in the arcane arts themselves, etc. For me, that triggers an investigation check, or a possibility of disbelief. I just saw you do something that looks at the very least abnormal, so I might question what's coming around the corner. If I see you take out a piece of fleece and rub it over your eye (see components for minor illusion), and then I hear footsteps - I'm going to have questions if I'm a guard, or even if I'm a goblin.

[Catullus64]

Depends on if you're casting these where enemies can see you casting, if you're attempting to maintain stealth, if the enemies have a spellcaster with them or are trained in the arcane arts themselves, etc. For me, that triggers an investigation check, or a possibility of disbelief. I just saw you do something that looks at the very least abnormal, so I might question what's coming around the corner. If I see you take out a piece of fleece and rub it over your eye (see components for minor illusion), and then I hear footsteps - I'm going to have questions if I'm a guard, or even if I'm a goblin.

Yeah, I generally assume one of two things for the purposes of these illusions: either I'm casting from a place of concealment, such that I can make the illusion first materialize out of enemy sightlines, and aren't detected casting, OR the illusion is of a nature that it could be passed off as a real effect conjured by a spell, like a circle of glowing runes appearing on the ground, or a cloud of smoke. In the latter case, I would say the majority of creatures can't tell at a glance that the spell you cast is an illusion rather than what it appears to be, unless they use their action to investigate as per the spell.

[Segev]

I read the clause that the motion appears natural as permissive, not restrictive: you can move it about and, when you do, you can do so such that it looks like the thing would if it were real and moving around. It is not requiring the thing to be naturally mobile to move it. You are not somehow unable to make an illusion of a flying carpet just because carpets can't fly.

[Sparky McDibben]

Yeah, I generally assume one of two things for the purposes of these illusions: either I'm casting from a place of concealment, such that I can make the illusion first materialize out of enemy sightlines, and aren't detected casting, OR the illusion is of a nature that it could be passed off as a real effect conjured by a spell, like a circle of glowing runes appearing on the ground, or a cloud of smoke. In the latter case, I would say the majority of creatures can't tell at a glance that the spell you cast is an illusion rather than what it appears to be, unless they use their action to investigate as per the spell.

That seems reasonable - though I wouldn't try it in front of a spellcaster! :) Or anyone with proficiency in Arcana, for instance. As far as casting from a place of concealment, I would allow a roll for Sleight of Hand vs the bad guys' Perception to avoid being noticed casting. That only applies if you have half-cover or more.

As far as the actual illusions go, I'm pretty permissive. I once ruled that an illusory fireball did temporary psychic damage that went away after 1 minute. Bard player, immediately afterward, asked, "So you're saying they passed out from our...sick burn?"

As far as your adjacent query, that depends. If passing through a spectral creature should trigger a sensory response (like the cold spot sensation), then I might trigger an Investigation (probably a 1-in-6 or 1-in-3 chance for the creature to go "wait a minute...").