Rogue Concept (Inspired by Darkest Dungeon) [PEACH]

[GalacticAxekick]

The thrilling sequel to my Fighter project (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630329-Fighter-Concept-(Inspired-by-Darkest-Dungeon)-PEACH).

Darkest Dungeon classes are unique because they have two sets of features instead of one. Combat Skills are features that the class uses in battle, while Camp Skills are features that the class uses during exploration and downtime. For example, the Crusader class's Combat Skills are based around his heavy armor and versatile longsword, while his Camp Skills are based on his zealous convictions, which strengthens his mind and inspires courage in his allies.

In addition, a lot of Combat Skills are utilities that reflect the class's Camp Skills. For example, the Crusader can weaponize his zeal to strike fear into his enemies, or to bring allies back from the brink of death and despair.


~~~

There are already dozens of threads aiming to rewrite 5e's martial classes. The idea is rarely to buff them (they deal enough damage), but instead to expand their roles beyond "damage dealer". My solution is to take the Darkest Dungeon approach: offer one subclass that focuses on granting the widest possible variety of options in combat, and another subclass which focuses on granting the widest possible variety of utilities.

As a Rogue, your first subclass (your Roguish Archetype) represents the physical skills that you use in combat. Your second subclass (your Roguish Talent) represents the mental skills that you use both in and outside of combat. By combining one of the two Archetypes with one of the two Talents, you can create up to 4 different rogues using your class features alone. Add ability scores, skills, equipment and feats on top of that, and I think this version of the rogue is versatile enough to represent most concepts and allow most playstyle.

Check it out here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B4j0mnm1r)

[GalacticAxekick]

Unlike my Fighter project, which included three Fighting Styles and three Gentle Arts, I could only come up with two Roguish Archetypes and two Roguish Talents.

On top of fine-tuning these, I would like help brainstorming one more Archetype (one befitting of a street thug, highwayman or pirate who does not rely on stealth or disguise, but nonetheless fights with underhanded tactics) and one more Talent (not a face, not a scout, but maybe a support role. A tinkerer/trapsmith/saboteur?)

[GalacticAxekick]

I've made a few updates, and I have a few questions:


Regarding the Assassin. I removed the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise and Imposter features. I think the Assassin subclass shouldn't lock you into a charismatic infiltrator playstyle, and that players who want that playstyle should take the Actor and Master of Disguise feats. To replace these features, I have an updated version of Supreme Sneak. But I need one more feature. Any ideas?

Regarding the Thief. In my first version of the Thief, I introduced Dirty Trick: a feature that helps the Thief nerf enemies in combat. I later decided that the Thief should be more effective outside of combat, and so I wrote Quick Work. Both features are compatible with Fast Hands. Do they look good?

[saucerhead]

I like your concept. It seems to work the way you want it to.

I've made a few updates, and I have a few questions:


Regarding the Assassin. I removed the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise and Imposter features. I think the Assassin subclass shouldn't lock you into a charismatic infiltrator playstyle, and that players who want that playstyle should take the Actor and Master of Disguise feats. To replace these features, I have an updated version of Supreme Sneak. But I need one more feature. Any ideas?
The supreme sneak saves the character from having to use its bonus action to hide every round, correct? My first thought was they could then attack, disengage and still be hidden at the end of the turn, if I understand correctly. I realized they don't have to disengage if they use a missile weapon though. So does the "you remain hidden even after the end of your turn" mean the target won't know where a ranged attack came from? It reminds me a little of the skulker feat if that is how it works. You could maybe add the character only needs light obscurement to gain cover too.




Regarding the Thief. In my first version of the Thief, I introduced Dirty Trick: a feature that helps the Thief nerf enemies in combat. I later decided that the Thief should be more effective outside of combat, and so I wrote Quick Work. Both features are compatible with Fast Hands. Do they look good?

I like the combinations, but had a question about the 2nd part of quick work. So the character can choose to succeed in disarming a trap even if they failed, it just gives away their position with a loud snap. Do they get to do this an unlimited amount of times? Meaning they will potentially never have a trap affect them or a lock refuse to open on them again?

[GalacticAxekick]

The supreme sneak saves the character from having to use its bonus action to hide every round, correct? My first thought was they could then attack, disengage and still be hidden at the end of the turn, if I understand correctly. I realized they don't have to disengage if they use a missile weapon though.Supreme Sneak saves you from using your Cunning Action at all. No need to Hide. No need to Disengage. Dash if you feel like it, I guess.

If you are hidden at any moment on your turn, you are hidden until the end of your turn. You can move through plain sight, undetected. You can make attacks, perform Dirty Tricks, and pick pockets, undetected.

If you end your turn in the open or in your original hiding spot, you are finally noticed. It's too late for anyone to make opportunity attacks, but at least they know who to beat up on their turns.

If you end your turn in a new hiding spot, you remain hidden. The enemies look down at their wounds and their empty pockets and think "When? How? Who? Find him!"


So does the "you remain hidden even after the end of your turn" mean the target won't know where a ranged attack came from? It reminds me a little of the skulker feat if that is how it works.
Skulker let's you remain hidden while staying put. Supreme Sneak requires that you move. Theyre similar, and they complement each other, but they dont overlap.


You could maybe add the character only needs light obscurement to gain cover too.At 13th level, you mean? That could be good!


I like the combinations, but had a question about the 2nd part of quick work. So the character can choose to succeed in disarming a trap even if they failed, it just gives away their position with a loud snap. Do they get to do this an unlimited amount of times? Meaning they will potentially never have a trap affect them or a lock refuse to open on them again?Yes, this feature can be used an unlimited number of times.

This means that you could very easily disarm every single trap that you notice. Keywords, "that you notice"

Because traps are usually hidden, I think this is perfectly balanced. But because locks are never hidden, you raise good point.

How about explicitly limiting the feature to tiny, mundane locks? So the Thief can kick the door in and break those cuffs, but not penetrate the vault or break the arcane seal?

[saucerhead]

I just wanted to check a couple other things.

The stealth skill isn't listed amongst the choices for character creation and I'm guessing it should be. Unless I missed something saying all rogues have it. You have reduced the number of choices from four to two, and I can't understand a thief or an assassin not having it.

I also don't see Expertise listed. Is this correct? If so, rogues have lost two skills and aren't as good at the ones they have. The reliable talent at 11th level is then strangely more valuable for the skills the rogue has, and less valuable since they are proficient in fewer skills.

I'm not seeing any added proficiencies in the talents or archetypes either. The snoop needs perception and the hustler needs persuasion, sleight of hand and deception. I know the talents add abilities based on skills, but they still need the skills, right?

[GalacticAxekick]

I just wanted to check a couple other things.

The stealth skill isn't listed amongst the choices for character creation and I'm guessing it should be. Unless I missed something saying all rogues have it. You have reduced the number of choices from four to two, and I can't understand a thief or an assassin not having it. Stealth is definitely supposed to be there! I must have removed it by mistake. I'll add it back in.


I also don't see Expertise listed. Is this correct? If so, rogues have lost two skills and aren't as good at the ones they have.Yes.

I briught the base Rogue down to other classes' level in terms of skills. 2 skills, no Expertise, just like everyone else.

My vision of the Rogue is not a skill monkey. It's a CHEATER. It's someone without the skills or superpowers to win a fair fight, but with the cunning to cheat at every opportunity.

Just like Sneak Attack, Roguish Talents push your skills above average when you leverage an unfair circumstance.


The reliable talent at 11th level is then strangely more valuable for the skills the rogue has, and less valuable since they are proficient in fewer skills.What makes this strange?



I'm not seeing any added proficiencies in the talents or archetypes either. The snoop needs perception and the hustler needs persuasion, sleight of hand and deception. I know the talents add abilities based on skills, but they still need the skills, right?Correct. And they have access to those skills via class and background.

[saucerhead]

What makes this strange?


I just meant that it is strange for Reliable Talent to be better and worse at the same time.

Let me make a simple character outline:
High-elf, criminal background,
St:8 Dx:16 Cn:12 In:14 Ws:14 Ch:12
perception+4, sleight of hand+5, deception +3, stealth +5, thieves tools.
Thief and Snoop. He can see in the dark/dim light and has a way to pick pockets, pick locks and disarm traps. He has a good stealth and perception to sneak into places to scout and steal.

At 3rd level his bonus action can be used to dash, disengage, hide, search, pick pockets, open locks, disarm traps, and use an object (including putting poison on a weapon). If he gets caught, he can try deception or use dirty tricks to blind or trip an opponent as an action and then move and either hide or dash away.
At 4th level he probably raises his Dex to 18, improving three of his skills.
At 5th level all his skills improve with a proficiency bump
At 6th level he could raise his Dex to 20, or picks up Elven Accuracy
At 7th level Supreme Sneak really bumps his hiding ability. Now on one turn he can:
bonus action: poison an arrow or dagger,
action: attack from hiding with advantage, with poison damage and sneak attack damage,
move: to a different hiding spot and remain hidden.

This seems pretty solid to me.

[saucerhead]

Unlike my Fighter project, which included three Fighting Styles and three Gentle Arts, I could only come up with two Roguish Archetypes and two Roguish Talents.

On top of fine-tuning these, I would like help brainstorming one more Archetype (one befitting of a street thug, highwayman or pirate who does not rely on stealth or disguise, but nonetheless fights with underhanded tactics) and one more Talent (not a face, not a scout, but maybe a support role. A tinkerer/trapsmith/saboteur?)

Just some thoughts on this. You could call him a Bandit. I think the swashbuckler Fancy Footwork ability to move in and out of melee without suffering opportunity attacks, or something similar is appropriate. I know rogues have the ability to disengage with a bonus action already, but if this guy doesn't get supreme sneak like the thief and assassin he should get something else. You could throw in a boost to initiative too if he won't be attacking from hiding.

As to the support talent, maybe something that distracts the target from attacking other party members? It could give the target disadvantage to attack anyone but him? Or if the Rogue attacks the target, a party member gets a reaction to withdraw from melee without AoOs against them?

[saucerhead]

I was just checking your link for Uncanny dodge and while it is listed on the chart, it isn't described among the base class features.