Junkyard Wars XXX: Something a Little Spicy

[Thurbane]

Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! With permission of the previous chair, I am trying to rejuvenate and re-launch this great competition. It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components. The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

Goal: Create a build that showcases the selected ingredients while steering clear of the Forbidden Ingredient.

This competition has two Necessary Components and one Forbidden Component. This round's components are...


Necessary: Scourge Maiden PrC (Shining South p.40)
Necessary: Lichloved Feat (Elder Evils p.13)
Forbidden: Cleric (this might seem like a big hurdle, but there are ways around it)





Creation: 32 point-buy is the presumed creation method. You may assume that you will have enough exp to reach ECL 20, and that the occasional bit of crafting, use of spells with exp components, or the like won't prevent you from doing so. However, LA buyoff is an alternate rule which is not in play.
Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, please link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed, as are Oriental Adventures (and its 3.5 updates in Dragon Magazine) and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Alternate rule systems from UA such as generic classes, spontaneous divine casters, gestalt and fractional saves and BAB are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
Leadership is banned: We're creating one thing, not all of the things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until after the reveal in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Disputes: Any scoring disputes should be sent to the Chair via PM. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes will be posted in-thread for the judge to review. When disputing, please indicate the judge the dispute is intended for and provide a quote of the disputed comment or comments. Note: the Chair may edit or paraphrase any disputes in presenting them to the judges.
Presentation: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability throughout its life. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries. Also for this reason, PLEASE do not include any material that may or may not offend any potential viewers/judges/competitors OR break forum rules. Any builds which violate forum rules WILL be withheld from posting.



Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, please use the following table for their entry.
NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.





Scoring: Each judge is required to provide the criteria by which they are judging the builds. By "criteria," we mean a simple explanation of what the judge is looking for in each of the below categories and what kind of scoring we can expect. If a judge deems a build to be illegal, they may provide a 0 in Elegance but may not refuse to judge any build presented by the Chairman.
The Categories: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Components.


Originality: Is the build unique? Does it deviate from the obvious? Does it forge its own path, or does it fall back on common, established optimization tricks? Some judges score entries for the quality of their concept & backstory as well, though not all do. Providing at least some backstory is heavily encouraged, as it helps the judges figure out who the entry is. Note that the purpose of this category is not to penalize entries that independently came up with the same idea as another entry, but rather to reward entries that explore underutilized and non-obvious areas of optimization, so, judges, try not to base your judging in this category too heavily on what other builds are doing. Multiple entries using the same element may certainly be evidence that the element is unoriginal, but you shouldn't impose anything like a "-1 for each other build using the same class" penalty.
Power: Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing (meaning any multiclassing that results in an xp penalty), and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, may lose you points. Rule adherence and legality of sources is scored under this category; additionally, reliance on a questionable, controversial, or ambiguous ruling can and should result in a deduction. Neither the number of sources nor their relative obscurity should be penalized--contestants should feel free to use any books they like. Dipping should not be penalized unless it results in a multiclass xp penalty; if the system won't penalize it, neither should judges.
Use of Components: Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary?



Disputes: Any scoring disputes will be posted by the Chairman in-thread after reviewing them privately. Valid disputes include

RAW misreadings,
arithmetic errors,
things missed that are present in the entry,
and inconsistently applied criteria.

Invalid disputes include

disagreements on matters of opinion,
a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry,
and the like.

Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes should be responded to by each individual judge. Judges are obligated to respond to disputes to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake. A judge's scores will only be recognized if they have recognized all disputes. In the absence of any other judges, the entries will be judged by the chairman.



Completion Time:

Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Monday June 14, 2021 to create their builds and PM them to the chairman.
Builds will then be posted simultaneously to avoid copying.
Judges will have until 23:59 GMT Monday June 28, 2021 (May the ... er ... Telekinesis? be with you, judges!) to judge the builds and submit their scores. Judging deadline is subject to extension as required.
As the precedent has been set from Episode 2, should all prospective judges have posted their rulings in a neat, timely fashion and all disputes have been settled satisfactorily (to either judges, contestants, or the Chairperson), the judging period may end prematurely to give way to a new episode. No reason to keep working on a finished building and avoid moving onto the next one.


Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing! We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build that doesn't gain a medal. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread. Ready? Set? Get to the junkyard and start building!



Junkyard Wars in the Playground I: Shadowdancer + Sneak Attack - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground II: Healing Spells + Ruby Knight Vindicator - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342896)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground III: Dragons + Theurges - Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347412)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground IV: BoED + Undead Type - Completes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355278)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground V: Dread Witch + Reaping Mauler - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360271)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VI: Wonderworker + Profession Skill - Factotum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369604)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VII: Metamagic Feats + LA - Metamagic Reducers! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374504)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VIII: Pounce+Small Size-Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388151)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground IX: Earth Dreamer + Ordained Champion - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395791)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground X: Meldshaping + Natural Attacks - Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403880)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XI: Magical Darkness + Improved Familiar - Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409650)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XII: Dragonmark Heirs + Touchstones - Martial Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430214)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIII: Mulhorandi Divine Minion + Monk - Any Other Wildshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?465901)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIV: Racial Paragon Classes + Spellcasting - Base Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479427)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XV: Ruathar + Stoneblessed - Human (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497904)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540521)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVII: Elemental Warrior + Jaunter - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552569)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555404)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIX: Incarnum Blade + Exotic Weapon Master - Spiked Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562523-Junkyard-Wars-XIX-IB-EWM-SC)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XX: Xorvintaal Exarch + The Pact-Bound Adept - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568541-Junkyard-Wars-XX-XE-PBA(a)-S)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XXI: Rebuke Undead + Teamwork Benefits - [Divine] feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572680-Junkyard-Wars-XXI-Halloween-Round!)
Junkyard Wars XXII: Battle Trickster + Magical Trickster - Uncanny Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577512-Junkyard-Wars-XXII-Show-Me-Your-Skillz)
Junkyard Wars XXIII: Spellwarp Sniper + Silver Pyromancer - Energy Substitution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581736-Junkyard-Wars-XXIII-Ready-Aim-Fire)
Junkyard Wars XXIV: Vow of Peace + Saint - Divine casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585567-Junkyard-Wars-XXIV-VoPe-S-DC)
Junkyard Wars XXV: Silverwood Arcanist + Share Soulmeld - Soulcaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590622-Junkyard-Wars-XXV-SA-SS-S)
Junkyard Wars XXVI: RSL + ACF - PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593374-Junkyard-Wars-XXVI-RSL-ACF-PrCs)
Junkyard Wars XXVII: Unholy Scion + Mark - Affiliation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598151-Junkyard-Wars-XXVII-US-M-A)
Junkyard Wars XXVII: 1MF + CPA&A - T (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603826-Junkyard-Wars-XXVIII-1MF-CPA-amp-A-T)
Junkyard Wars XXIX: Social Distancing Edition! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610153-Junkyard-Wars-XXIX-Social-Distancing-Edition!)

[Thurbane]

Q: Do I have to use the Elder Evils version of Lichloved?
A: Yes, this is the most recently published version of the feat.

Q: Does the ban on Cleric include variant classes such as Cloistered Cleric?
Y: Cloistered Cleric and similar Cleric variants are also banned.

Q: Can I use a different deity for an adaptation of Sourge Maiden?
A: No, the PrC must be used as written.

Q: Since the PrC required is specific to FR, can I use source material in my entry from other settings?
A: Yes, but it is entirely up to individual judges as to how this might affect scoring. Historically, some judges have a beef with this and may mark you down, while others will have no issue with it at all.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Ah, there are few things I love so much as cheesing entry requirements. Let's see what we're working with here.



Initiate of Loviator

With great pain comes great power.

Prerequisite
Cleric level 5th


...

Okay, this might be a tougher nut to crack than I was originally thinking.

:smallbiggrin:


On an unrelated subject, I've concluded that my entry to the previous round (Social Distancing) has enough mistakes to be unsalvageable. As such, I'll start working out judgments for the other contestants in that round, and, if I finish, withdraw my entry and post the judgments to finally bring the round to a close.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

[removed as speculation]

Well that is certainly a lot less cheesy than what I was going to resort to. ...Not that my plan is off the table; depends on how risque I'm feeling when push comes to shove.

[Thurbane]

[deleted]

Just FYI, this would probably be considered build speculation, so may be better if it was deleted.

[ciopo]

I like the combination scourge maiden but forbidden cleric, it makes it interesting to find a way to qualify

I do not understand the lichloved requirements :(

I mean, it clearly prompts to story reasons, and I dig that, but it's an ingredient I'm very stumped on how to build on it

Question for the chair : does the scourge count as a whip, or are we to use the scourge statistics as standalone?

[ciopo]

I got smoke coming out my ears :9

Question for the chair : given the setting specific deity, are cross-setting material disallowed for this round?

[Thurbane]

Is that really? I'm not going to participate in this one, and not knowing this kinda obscure rule may deter other people from entering the round, if they don't know how to cheat specific prerequisites. I believe it would be pretty detrimental to remove this precision, but if you think I should, I will.

Yes, if you could please remove (after this is done I will delete my quote of your post, and would ask PoeticallyPsyco to do the same). Half the challenge in this comp is working around the restriction, and if the third post in spells out the most common ways around it, kind of kills the mystery and inventiveness for the round.


I got smoke coming out my ears :9

Question for the chair : given the setting specific deity, are cross-setting material disallowed for this round?

As in, can you chose a different deity for the PrC, or can you use material from different campaign settings as well as FR?

No to swapping out the deity (must remain Loviatar); in terms of mix-n-matching source materials from different settings, that is entirely up to the judges as to how they score it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yes, if you could please remove ([I]after this is done I will delete my quote of your post, and would ask PoeticallyPsyco to do the same.

The deed is done.

[Zaq]

This PrC is remarkably bad.

[ciopo]

I have a build in mind and it's horrible, but eh

[NotInventedHere]

You know, I've seen prestige classes with 10, 5 and 3 levels, but 6 is actually a new one to me.

I'm already thinking of interesting ways to cheese that Initiate requirement, which is usually a good sign. Let me see if I can whip something up.

[Thurbane]

This PrC is remarkably bad.

:smallbiggrin:


You know, I've seen prestige classes with 10, 5 and 3 levels, but 6 is actually a new one to me.

I was actually perusing my list when I thought of this PrC: List of PrCs with "nonstandard" levels (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?226460)

[Beni-Kujaku]

This PrC is remarkably bad.

I know, right? Please choose between being a spellcaster with fear effects or a monk who uses a scourge for stunning strike, do not make half of each and nothing well!

[Thurbane]

Nice to see some entries already in. Still well over a week until the initial deadline.

While waiting for the next round of Iron Chef and/or Villainous Competition, now might be a good time to get an entry in here. :smallsmile:

[ciopo]

Offtopic : I saw a ZC challenged mentioned, has it since been discontinued? I'm not even sure what the acronym stands for and I failed at googling for it

MY first attempted partecipation in a contest was the PoeticallyPsyco runned military challenges, which didn't take off iirc, I had a hiatus from the forum at the time

[mattie_p]

I think it's ZS not ZC, and would stand for Zinc Saucier. I used to run it years ago but got busy and dropped from the forums. With as many PO competitions going already I'm not sure there would be any demand for another

[Beni-Kujaku]

If you don't have a judge yet‚ I would be happy to take that role

[Thurbane]

If you don't have a judge yet‚ I would be happy to take that role

Much appreciated, than k you! :smallsmile:

P.S. If anyone is struggling with the "no cleric" restriction, feel free to message me for a hint.

[jdizzlean]

my life is to crazy right now to build let alone judge, but i'm happy to see this comp make a return :)

[Thurbane]

I am currently pushing the deadline back 1 week, to allow time for additional entries.

[ciopo]

How many entries do you have so far?

[Thurbane]

How many entries do you have so far?

Lets just say I think more would be better, and I've been PMd requesting an extension.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not sure I could do something with this, and I'm already working on another contest entry, but if Thurbane gets at least two entries I'm down to judge.

[Thurbane]

So my PC with about a year of data that wasn't backed up has died. On my wife's PC right now. I feel like slamming my head into a wall. :smalleek:

Reveal is delayed until further notice. Feel free to keep submitting up until the reveal.

[Thurbane]

New ETA for the reveal is this Friday, but if circumstances allow sooner, I'll see what I can do.

PC update: looks like my solid state HDD has died, and that's the one with my OS on it. I'm desperately hoping I can retrieve the data from the secondary HDD, which was the larger of the two and where I stored most of my stuff (primary drives was OS, software and games for the most part, but sadly, also some files I really didn't want to lose, like 3 years worth of data I kept in a notepad file relating to an online game I play: stupidly had it on my desktop for easy access).

Also got a lot of other IRL stuff happening which means I can't sort my PC issues with the urgency I would have liked to.

Anyhow, like I said before, all submissions up until the reveal will be accepted. :smallsmile:

[Beni-Kujaku]

So my PC with about a year of data that wasn't backed up has died. On my wife's PC right now. I feel like slamming my head into a wall. :smalleek:

Reveal is delayed until further notice. Feel free to keep submitting up until the reveal.

Yeah‚ it's always sad when a character you have played for a long time dies. Did your wife leave the campaign to lend you hers?

What do you mean you didn't mean "Player Character" by "PC" ?

[Thurbane]

Yeah‚ it's always sad when a character you have played for a long time dies. Did your wife leave the campaign to lend you hers?

What do you mean you didn't mean "Player Character" by "PC" ?

I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

Update on my computer: the solid state HDD that the OS was on has died, but it looks like my secondary drive may be intact, so I'm going to pull it out and put it in one of our old PCs to see if I can retrieve the data.

I tried doing it via command prompt from the boot disk (Windows 7), but it won't recognise the external I plugged in.

[Thurbane]

Tine for the reveal: please don't post here until I give the all clear.

[Thurbane]

Hello there!, It is I, Contestant X!

this is the.. 4th iteration I'm making on the scourge maiden, because damn is this prc bad.

My mind goes like this : first I imagine a build, and THEN find some story that makes the build make sense, then some build choices become informed by the natural extrapolating that comes from the story, or I make new build choices that make sense for the story.

The result for this entry is this : Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 6 / Maiden of Pain 9.

I want to get this out of the way right away : there's this choice of doing Scourge Maiden 6/6 and Maiden of Pain 9/10 or Scourge Maiden 5/6 and Maiden of Pain 10/10. Why am I talking about this you'll ask? Well, if you take the RAI reading that Maiden of Pain advances the archivist spellcasting, then what that last level of scourge Maiden competes with is unlocking 9th level spells. On Archivist.

I'm going to spell it out, to avoid being called out on not spelling it out : Archivists can add spells from ANY divine list, and if they have friendly arcane casters around, also from ANY arcane list those friendly spellcasters have access to. You all probably already know this, and are rolling your eyes right now, but this is power overwhelming right there, the opportunity cost of that 6th level of Scourge Maiden is insane if we take the read that Maiden of Pain advances Archivist casting.

THAT SAID, the entry is made with the more strict RAW reading that Maiden of Pain spellcasting is independent from Archivist! so the end spellcasting is CL5 archivist and CL11 cleric. Maiden of Pain 10 is still better than Scourge Maiden 6, but the munchkin inside me is throwing much less of a tantrum in finishing the UotSI when it's "only" an extra 6th and 5th slots we're trading away for a lousier trip goes to cry in a corner. At least I found a story reason to have it gives self a cookie
It hinges on what qualify for painful enough to make use of the Liquid Pain spell in BoVD. I'm basically Deus-ex-machinaing that only Scourge Maiden Agonizing strike is powerful enough for that, so 6/6 Scourge maidens are vitally Important to Loviatar societies!

You know that mental exercise "what if the shadow 'Create Spawn' is taken to it's logical conclusion?"

WELL, THAT HAPPENED!

Buckle up, we're now in post apocalypse, Orcus is rubbing hands over yonder, there are shadows and zombies and skeletons everywhere . civiliziation as we know it is NO MORE!

The living population is much reduced, surviving in havens made of Hallow, a LOT of knowledge, magical or otherwise, is lost.

"Everybody" or most everybody that is serious about adventuring busyness will have some way to mitigate ability damage, they "have to" if they want to survive the shadows long enough to not have a problem with shadows anymore.

Venturing out is a very dangerous affairs. Undeads, Undeads everywhere!

Our character is one of those daredevil adventurers that does just that, she has a thirst for (ancient?) knowledge, because much has been lost and it is not KNOWN anymore. She's also somewhat uncomfortable whenever she is inside an hallowed zone, maybe if she was a bit more of a righteous gal she wouldn't have that problem...

She have to be strong, and hale, and wise. You have to be if you want to survive in such a world. What "adventures" will she have!?


Daralei, LE lesser Zenythri, Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 6 / Maiden of Pain 9
Str 16(+2race), Dex 8(+2race), Con 16(+1leveling), Int 14, Wis 14(+2race,+4leveling), Cha 8(-2race)


Size/Type
Medium Humanoid (Planetouched)


Hit Dice
15d6+6d8+max(1d6)+60 (145)


Armor Class
Negligible, our touch AC is .. 9 before items/spells shenanigans


BAB
+14 or +20(Divine power)


Space/Reach
5 ft. / 10 ft.


Special Attack
Pain touch 3/day, (Stunning/Painful/Agonizing) strike 6/day, Dark knowledge(tactics, puissant) 4/day, Bane 3/day, Crushing Despair 3/day


Special Qualities
Lore Mastery, Still mind, addicted to Agony, Lasher


Saves
15 Fort, 8 Ref, 17 Will


Abilities
18 Str, 10 Dex, 17 Con, 14 Int, 20 Wis, 6 Cha


Skills
Concentration 20, Craft(Alchemy) 19, Decipher Script 12, Heal 13, Intimidate 24 (26 against evil), Knowledge(Religion) 27, Spellcraft 17, Use Rope 10


Feats
Bonus Essentia, Chosen of Evil, Deformity(Tall), Evil Brand, Exotic Weapon Profiency(Scourge), Improved Disarm(whip only), Improved Trip(whip only), Initiate of Loviatar, Insane Defiance, Lichloved, Open Greater Chakra(Waist), Scribe Scroll, Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest), Violate Spell(Consecrate), Weapon Focus(Scourge), Willing Deformity







Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Archivist 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration +4, Decipher Script +4, Heal +4, Intimidate 2(+4)(CROSSCLASS), Knowledge(Religion) +4, Spellcraft +4
Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest), Scribe Scroll(Bonus, Class)
Dark Knowledge (tactics) 3/day, simple weapon profiency, light armor profiency, medium armor profiency


2nd
Archivist 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Concentration 4+1, Decipher Script 4+1, Heal 4+1, Intimidate 2-1/2(4+1)(CROSSCLASS), Knowledge(Religion) 4+1, Spellcraft 4+1

Lore mastery


3rd
Archivist 3
+1
+3
+1
+3
Concentration 5+1, Decipher Script 5+1, Heal 5+1, Intimidate 3(5+1)(CROSSCLASS), Knowledge(Religion) 5+1, Spellcraft 5+1
Violate Spell(Consecrate)
Dark knowledge 4/day


4th
Archivist 4 (+1 wis)
+2
+4
+1
+4
Concentration 6+1, Decipher Script 6+1, Heal 6+1, Intimidate 3-1/2(6+1)(CROSSCLASS), Knowledge(Religion) 6+1, Spellcraft 6+1

Still Mind


5th
Archivist 5
+2
+4
+1
+4
Concentration 7+1, Decipher Script 7+1, Heal 7+1, Intimidate 4(7+1)(CROSSCLASS), Knowledge(Religion) 7+1, Spellcraft 7+1
Evil Brand (bonus), Lichloved (bonus)
Dark Knowledge (puissance)


6th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 1
+2
+4
+3
+4
Concentration 8+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 4+3, Knowledge(Religion) 8+1, Spellcraft 8+1
Bonus Essentia
Exotic weapon profiency(Whip), Agony Addiction, Lasher, Extra domain(Pain), Pain touch 1/day


7th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 2
+3
+4
+4
+4
Concentration 9+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 7+3, Knowledge(Religion) 9+1, Spellcraft 9+1

Cleric Spellcasting


8th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 3 (+1 Wis)
+4
+5
+4
+5
Concentration 10+1, Craft(Alchemy) +1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 10+1, Knowledge(Religion) 10+1, Spellcraft 10+1, Use Rope +1

Improved Trip, Advances spellcasting


9th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 4
+5
+5
+5
+5
Concentration 11+1, Craft(Alchemy) 1+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 11+1, Knowledge(Religion) 11+1, Spellcraft 11+1, Use Rope 1+1
Exotic weapon profiency(Scourge)
Pain touch 2/day, Advances spellcasting


10th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 5
+5
+5
+5
+5
Concentration 12+1, Craft(Alchemy) 2+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 12+1, Knowledge(Religion) 12+1, Spellcraft 12+1, Use Rope 2+1
Willing Deformity (bonus)
Advances spellcasting


11th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 6
+6/+1
+6
+6
+6
Concentration 13+1, Craft(Alchemy) 3+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 13+1, Knowledge(Religion) 13+1, Spellcraft 13+1, Use Rope 3+1

Improved Disarm, Advances spellcasting


12th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 (+1 Wis)
+7/+2
+6
+6
+6
Concentration 14, Craft(Alchemy) 4+2, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 14+1, Knowledge(Religion) 14+1, Spellcraft 14+1, Use Rope 4+1
Initiate of Loviatar
Pain Touch 3/day, Advances spellcasting


13th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 1
+8/+3
+8
+6
+8
Concentration 14+1, Craft(Alchemy) 6+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 15+1, Knowledge(Religion) 15+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 5
Weapon Focus(Scourge) (bonus)
Advances spellcasting


14th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 2
+9/+4
+9
+6
+9
Concentration 15, Craft(Alchemy) 7+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 16+1, Knowledge(Religion) 16+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 5+1

Bane 3/day


15th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 3
+10/+5
+9
+7
+9
Concentration 15, Craft(Alchemy) 8+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 17+1, Knowledge(Religion) 17+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 6+1
Deformity(Tall), Chosen of evil (bonus)
Crushing Despair 3/day, Advances spellcasting


16th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 4 (+1 Con)
+11/+6/+1
+10
+7
+10
Concentration 15, Craft(Alchemy) 9+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 18+1, Knowledge(Religion) 17+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 7+1

Stunning strike


17th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 5
+12/+7/+2
+10
+7
+10
Concentration 15+1, Craft(Alchemy) 10+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 19+1, Knowledge(Religion) 19+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 8

Painful strike, Advances spellcasting


18th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 7 / Scourge Maiden 6
+13/+8/+3
+11
+7
+11
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 11+1, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 20+1, Knowledge(Religion) 20+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 8+1
Open Greater Chakra (Waist)
Agonizing strike


19th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 8 / Scourge Maiden 6
+14/+9/+4
+11
+8
+11
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 11+3, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 21+1, Knowledge(Religion) 21+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 9+1

Advances spellcasting


20th
Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 9 (+1 Wis) / Scourge Maiden 6
+14/+9/+4
+12
+8
+12
Concentration 16+1, Craft(Alchemy) 14+3, Decipher Script 8, Heal 8, Intimidate 22+1, Knowledge(Religion) 22+1, Spellcraft 15, Use Rope 10
Insane Defiance (bonus)
Advances spellcasting




Legenda: A stands for archivist, C stands for cleric equivalent (combined Maiden of Pain + Scourge Maiden), D stands for domain (as granted by the Maiden of Pain feature)
The list Includes bonus slots from ability scores, but it is assumed that we will not have obtained any periapt of wisdom or equivalent.
For fast reference, wisdom is 16 at level 1-7, 18 from 8-19 and 20 at level 20
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th


1st
3A
3A
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4A
4A
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
4A
4A
3A
-
-
-
-


4th
4A
5A
4A
-
-
-
-


5th
4A
5A
4A
3A
-
-
-


6th
4A
5A
4A
3A
-
-
-


7th
4A+3C
5A+2C+1D
4A
3A
-
-
-


8th
4A+4C
5A+3C+1D
4A
3A
-
-
-


9th
4A+4C
5A+3C+1D
4A+2C+1D
3A
-
-
-


10th
4A+5C
5A+4C+1D
4A+3C+1D
3A
-
-
-


11th
4A+5C
5A+4C+1D
4A+3C+1D
3A+2C+1D
-
-
-


12th
4A+5C
5A+4C+1D
4A+4C+1D
3A+3C+1D
-
-
-


13th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+4C+1D
3A+3C+1D
2C+1D
-
-


14th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+4C+1D
3A+3C+1D
2C+1D
-
-


15th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+4C+1D
3A+4C+1D
3C+1D
-
-


16th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+4C+1D
3A+4C+1D
3C+1D
-
-


17th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+5C+1D
3A+4C+1D
3C+1D
1C+1D
-


18th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+5C+1D
3A+4C+1D
3C+1D
1C+1D
-


19th
4A+6C
5A+5C+1D
4A+5C+1D
3A+4C+1D
4C+1D
2C+1D
-


20th
4A+6C
6A+7C+1D
4A+5C+1D
3A+5C+1D
4C+1D
3C+1D
1C+1D






Assumptions : the only spell knowns listed are those granted from class levels, because it is unknown whether we'd find scrolls to copy down or not, and of what.
Reasoning about skill choices : concentration for defensive spellcasting; Decipher Script because of character motivations; Heal because treating ability damage is important in a world of Shadows; Spellcraft because copying scrolls in the prayerbook is a thing :); Religion because the vast predominance of undead enemies.
Intimidate because we need a way to not be bullied by other survivors and high str "lent itself" to intimidate more than diplomacy : no one will care much about a sissy being all diplomatic in a postapocalyptic world.

level 1: We are teensy tiny 9HP BAB0 casters, we better have some meatshields with us!
that said, we can still do an adeguate WHACK! on the occasional corporeal undead that wanders too close, ToHit +4 for 1d8+6 morningstar is passable for a first level pure spellcaster.

Spells known : all cleric 0-th level, 1st level : Comprehend language, scholar touch, healthful rest, Cure light wounds, Hide from undead

Average adventuring day prepared spells : 2x hide from undead, 1x healthful rest
We are not at a level where we can engage shadows, assuming we have at least one friend braving the outside with us, we want the emergency Hide from undead for the both of us. To RUN AWAY BACK INSIDE HALLOWED GROUND, of course.

We have the Str score to hopefully survive the occasional swipe, plus the vitally important Strongheart Vest reducing that damage from 1-6 to 0-5! a World of difference!
Healthful rest basically halves the downtime needed to recuperate, and on a 7+ on the heal check we halve that again if it's only our companion that got touched by shadows. Our stressful adventuring time is therefore spent hunting skeletons/zombies, we aren't strong enough yet to venture far from the gates.

Daralei *is* an Archivist, of course she would have Comprehend language and scholar touch!
Likely 0th spells prepared : Amanuensis, Cure minor wounds, Purify food and drink

Level 2:New spells known : Magic weapon , Shield of faith
precisation : "Protection from Evil" and "Light of Lunia" are obvious choices for spells to learn, and the archivist doesn't have alignment restriction, unlike the cleric. It just doesn't sit right with me to have an evil character cast spells tagged as good. Sure, she could do it, but at discomfort to herself, so perhabs she will learn some later, but not taking these as early as possible is very intentional.

Average Adventuring day prepared spells : 2x hide from undead, 2x Magic weapon OR 1x hide form undead, 2x Magic weapon, 1xCLW
the extra CL let us hide both ourselves and our pal with one casting, or a party of 4 in two casting. with Magic weapon we might risk facing one Shadow, but it's more likely we'll just run away if we encounter one
If we had Light of Lunia, this might have been different, 4d6 per casting might well mean killing a shadow in two castings, but two problems with that, other than the Good descriptor : it doesn't specify what kind of damage it is, so there is still a 50% incorporeality miss chance, and it's a ranged touch attack, we have a grand total of +1 to hit, so we only hit shadows on a 12+, we're better off running away, or risk it with magic weapon, less damage, but higher hit chance.

Level 3: Unlock second level spells! New spells known : Consecrate , Spiritual Weapon
Feat is Violate spell(Consecrate), because it's storytime! Daralei has had enough of the uncomfortable feeling that hallowed ground makes her feel, she knows/discovers that consecrate is an "early version" of hallow, and tries ( unsuccessfully, since she can't metamagic it yet ) to make a nongood version of it.

Average adventuring day prepared spells : 1x hide from undead, 2x Shield of faith, 1xCLW, 3x Spiritual Weapon
Boy does it make a world of difference unlocking the second level spell slots, it's much less risky confronting one shadow at a time now, Spiritual Weapon and soon enough goodbye shadow!
Reap that damn xp!

Level 4: new spells known : Ghost touch armor, Body Ward
Ghost touch armor is kinda a nobrainer, Body Ward or lesser restoration are kinda of a wash, these are just the spells learned form leveling up after all, we'll gonna catch them all eventually! One more 1st and one more 2nd spell slot just make it even smoother doing some successfully hunting

Level 5: Oh la la third level spells!, new spells known: Ghost touch weapon, Neutralize Poison
Ghost touch weapon is a nobrainer to now go forth and conquer! Us and our group are now able to survive traveling quite a bit farther than before from their settlement, so they go about exploring...
Ancient tablets and books in some ruins, le gasps! Elder evils! What's this about Orcus and undeads!? There are others that oppose him!? Well then, sign us up! Demogorgon we beseech thee, grant us the power to defy Orcus!
What a good fit is such a discovery for an archivist!

Katablam! Evil Brand and Lichloved, mindless undead ignore us, I repeat, Mindless undead ignore us. Cue singing I believe I can roam


Off we are in the next chapter of the adventures of our 'heroes'.
They have now much more freedom to roam about, here they stumble on a settlement of.. strange ladies? But who cares about the ladies, what's this about drugs that have the 'side' effect of intense pleasure for 1d4 hours? Who wouldn't get a vice or three in a post apocalyptic world?
Our dear protagonist promptly gets addicted, and in the pursuit of the next dose she swear allegiance to this cult these strange ladies all seems to be a part of.
Note that addiction to a drug is pretty debilitating, it function like a disease, and the rate for Agony is a Initial fort save at DC25 or become addicted.
Being addicted means a DC25 fort save every day or take 1d6 dex, 1d6 wis and 1d6 con damage, or DC36 for 1d8 Dex, 1d8 Wis, 1d6Con, 1d6Str if she tries to withdraw from it. These are Harsh effects, hopefully by now she picked up/traded for scrolls that helps survive the addiction long enough to qualify for Maiden of Pain ;)
Neutralize poison spell choice above is in function of that, she couldn't know she needed sadism and masochism, could she? too bad Sheltered Vitality has been upped to 4th level in Spell compendium, that was my choice otherwise :(


Of course, she needs to be like-minded, but keeping to her own morality is kinda difficult when you're addicted to a substance only they seems to have, isn't it?

Luckily, archivist can copy new spells on their prayerbooks, so eventually she'll have all the prerequisites to become a maiden of pain ;)

I'm not going to list prepared spells anymore, except when unlocking new spell levels, because the loadout for undead-hunting is essentially the same. Our BAB is bad but we have a fairly good 18STR, so delivering touch attack is easily doable, not that we have any yet :)

Level 6:She can deliver touch attacks with a whip now, which is.. okaysh? she doesn't have any yet except for the pain touch, which doesn't really help adventuring, but seems to be important to the sisters because it's somehow used in the production of that wonderful liquid pain?
Bonus essentia feat : this is exactly the level we start being allowed to put 2 essentia in things, and since we can shape the one thing, we get 2 essentia. Our dear strongheart goes from reducing by 1 to reducing by 3, sweet! Also helps greatly with the addiction, double sweet!
Why did we stop learning heal and decipher script : people grow up, that was our past, we are a new lady now!

Level 7:The unlocking of spellcasting as a first level cleric does one important thing for us : we can now independently copy all the cleric spells to our prayerbook, the success in copying a 1st level spell is 4+, a masterwork spellcraft item and guidance makes it a success on a 1
A word of note : Clerics are forbidden from casting spells of opposing alignments, while technically this same limitation does not apply to Maiden of Pain, the spirit of things compels me to consider Maiden of pain as forbidden from casting spells of opposite alignment.
Also technically, a cleric can prepare a spell of opposed alignment, and not cast it. You don't need to cast the spell to scribe a scroll, so we can technically scribe down the Good and Chaotic spells, to pass them over to the prayerbook, they are fair game in the archivist slots!
We'll only do that when the goddess isn't paying attention wink wink , and if she deigned us worthy of being bestowed a spell of opposed alignment, surely she'll turn a blind eye when we not cast it, yeah?

Level 8: We can trip!, How good are we at tripping? Well BAb4 and 18str, so a total of +12 on touch attack, kinda okay I suppose, but hey, freebie is freebie! Certainly not particularly useful against undead, but sometimes we have hostile goons of the living variety, don't we?
Craft(Alchemy) and Use rope : that's what the cult demands of us, we're starting out our training in making the drugs, and also our training in the proper way of binding those prisoners we extract the pain from.

Level 9:"Tell me again why do I have to train in using this special weapon that's kinda equivalent to the morningstar I've been using since before I started adventuring?" "Because our Lady of pain digs it, now shush and flex that arm!" Aka how to lampshade what a... weapon the Scourge is
"Also, if you behave, later we might teach you how to deliver nasty drugs with it!"
This level we also unlocked 2nd level slots for cleric casting, which we successfully scribe over on a 3+, so masterwork item and no worries of fails here

Level 10:Demogorgon "granted" us Willing Deformity, it's flavorful because what says pain like self mutilation, no? and the bonus on intimidate is on point with the build!


Level 11: Third level cleric slots, which we can copy over to the archivist slots on a 2+ unaided :) , also free disarming is better than no free disarming! This is worse than the free trip, because we don't really have the BAB for the opposed attack roll, but hey, free is free.

Level 12:Our worship has been recognized! We're granted leave to whip people with frizzy energy
On concentration : "we feel we mastered our mental defenses, and can now focus on other things" aka we succeed on defensive casting on a 1 even for our highest spell slot, so we can dedicate these skill points elsewhere. Like getting better at making drugs, for example. We're only upping concentration when we need to do so to auto-succeed defensive casting new levels of spell slots.
Same with spellcraft, even for 3rd level spells, we now succeed on a 1, so we "mastered the art of copying scrolls to our prayerbook".

Level 13:it's the SI!, why so late!? Well, qualifying for the prerequisite Initiate feat wasn't that easy :(
4th level spell slots, Praise Loviatar! All I need to mention is DIVINE POWER , but I'm sure you all know the goodies we're unlocking here. Death ward, Restoration, Lesser planar Ally... and that's just from core...
It's also when we get the Liquid pain, so entering Scourge Maiden fall right on the cusp of when we become indipendent in the making of drugs. Our Alchemy is sadly still low, but it's a start, we can divine insight it in a pinch, but I wouldn't risk that crafting DC just yet, DC 25 against combined bonus of 21 if we divine insight ourselves... we don't want to risk wasting the precious

Level 14: Eh. We can Bane 3/day at DC 11, or 9 if the Cha malus applies :) . this does not bring them, but also us, joy. Then again our domain is pain, not joy, so it certainly fits that our own abilities trascends the 4th wall and brings pain to the player.
Does the Gm at least grants us the use of Improved trip and disarm with the Scourge? who knows! There'll come a time when we apply drugs to the scourge, but it is not yet the time! (because we don't have the alchemy to reliable make the drugs ourselves)

Level 15: So, let's see what today brings us : Crushing despair, DC12 cone. Well, it's certianly making me sad, considering the level :( It's being so effective it's crossing the 4th wall!
We've grown taller! So what is the reach with our Mystic lash or scourge then? 15+5 feet? 10*3=30 feet? Who knows! Not I!, But delivering melee touch attack out to 30 feet is kinda sweet.
What about our bonus vile feat? Well... how would you like to have an insight bonus of +5 to basically every check other than damage you'll ever make, nice right? right!, it's even going to upgrade to +6 at level 20! Too bad the Violate spell doesn't have the Vile tag :). Now we can reliably make Agony on our own! Much joy in pain! (With Divine insight, not chosen of evil, they don't stack)


Level 16: it's our signature stunning strike, which we can totally not use against undead! Unless we Spark of life them, I suppose, what did we say was our melee touch range again?
Why Improve CON to 17 now? Because we need that to qualify for Opening the waist chakra

Level 17:Well, if we had doubts about being allowed to Spark of life -> stunning strike undead, at least by the wording of things we can Spark of life -> Painful strike them!
More to the point, the name of this ability is painful strike, so it's fuel for liquid agony! Gimmie Gimmie liquid agony! We're upping our production from 3 to 5 doses per day, yummy!
5th level slots unlocked, and Initiate gives us this interesting NO SAVE STUN on living targets with HD less than us. And hey, we can Commune!, Or do all those other things 5th level slots allows us, like casting good spells and then atone for it, snickers

Level 18: Agonizing strike! The naysayer will think "what is this good for? it's basically a trip but worse!", to which I counter with Agonizing, Liquid pain, if painful wasn't enough to extract liquid pain, Agonizing certainly is! "gain 200gp per use per day", we have infinite wealth, woohoo!
We open our chakra so that Our trusty Soulmeld we carried with us ever since level 1 also protects us from ability drain, sweet potatoes!

Level 19-20: We wrap up by progressing our other PrC, capstoning with 6th level slots (who wants to circle of death for 11d4 HD worth of things at a time? need I remind you we are in a shadowapocalypse scenario?).
Insane Defiance is, well, insane, mind-affecting are like, most of the spells with a will save, and we just no-sell them, we do worse than no sell them, we make our enemies the target of them and with a malus to their saves, seriously!?

Why *that* amount of ranks of use rope : 10 rank +10 circumstance bonus are a good ballpark for the opposed check who takes escape artist anyway
Can we finally make our drugs in peace!?, let's see. baseline we're at 17ranks+2intelligence+6chosen of evil, which just so happens to be the crafting DC of Agony(liquid pain), I swear this is actually a coincidence, what serendipity.

What about some drug with combat use? Well, Luhix is a DC 30 to make, so we could fail, except we're divine caster, so let's just "ahah, no" Divine insight and craft it without problems.

Why would we apply it to our Trusty Scourge? Well, it's poisonlike effect is a DC25 for -1 to all abilities scores, which is kinda not really hot in a world where everybody that's still alive has *some* form of ability damage mitigation, but here is the interesting bit: drugs have an overdose effect if you're exposes to them again in a 24hour period, what's Luhix overdose effect? death on a DC25 fort save, that's cooler!

We risk nothing ourselves because cleric have spells to deal with it, psych!



Strongheart Vest and it's upgrades : occupies waist slots, reduces all ability damage taken by 1, later upgraded to 3 and also applied to ability drian
Dark Knowledge : 4/day religion check for variable bonus to himself and allies to either attack rolls or saves against undead
Lore Mastery and still mind : +2 to decipher script, religion checks and saves against enchantments
Evil brand and lichloved: +2 to diplomacy and intimidate against evil creatures , mindless undead treats us as undead, +1 to saves against some conditions
Lasher : can use whip to deliver melee touch effects, can deliver touch effects as part of a standard attack
Pain touch : 3/day DC 24 stun
Willing deformity and Tall : +3 intimidate, + 5ft. reach, -1AC, -2 hide
Chosen of Evil and Insane Defiance : at will immediate actions for insight bonus to checks, or to redirect mind affecting effects. We take ability damage on use whistles
Bane and Crushing Despair : SLA as the spells 3/day DC 9 and 12
Stunning/painful/agonizing strike : 6/day DC 18 stun/nauseating/dazing effect, duration 1/2/1d4

Q: How are you qualifying for Initiate of Loviatar? A: Dragon Magic pg 15.
Q: You can't select Insane Defiance if you can't take ability damage! A: I thank you for houseruling I'm immune to ability damage!
Q: Where are you getting all these extra feats from!? A: Elder Evils pg 10.
Q: You're swearing service to Demogorgon! This no sells worshipping Loviatar to me! A: I'm sorry you feel that way, but the elder evils aren't gods, service to one does not preclude worship of the other.
Q: You only get the bonus feats the level you swear service! A: Well... okay? If I was feeling fastidious I'd counter rule lawyer argue with you that I can swear service to more than one elder evil, and so I gain "all" the vile feats I qualify for/want? But oh well, I covered my ass by swearing service at level 5 for a reason! Build changes become... Chosen of Evil at level 15 instead of tall, I'd say, it's still a nice +3 to everything, and it doesn't have the nonselectable special about ability damage, so it comes cleanly with that possible controversy, yay!
Q: Even if Spark of life makes an undead lose it's undead immunities, Stunning strike can't affect it because it specifically says it doesn't affect undead, it's not a function of undead immunities! A: Indeed, that's my RAW reading too because my brain is weird about nuances (not RAI, obviously), but painful/agonizing strike do not have that problem!
Q: I don't like that you're using 3.0 spells A: I don't like it either, but at least sadism and masochism are needed to qualify for Maiden of Pain, unless you're willing to drop those prerequisites? I haven't found a source that says it's been updated to not have those as preprequisites :(
Q: You can't stack Divine insight with Chosen of Evil! A: That is correct, but we don't need to. Divine Insight is enough to craft/apply Luhix with 100% success rate

Book of Vile Darkness : Drugs, Deformity(Tall), Violate spell, some prerequisites, pain domain
Heroes of Horror : Archivist
Shining South : Scourge Maiden
Champions of ruins : initiate of Loviatar
Elder Evils : Vile feats taken except Tall
Magic of Incarnum : Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Bonus Essentia
Complete Warrior : Scourge weapon
Book of Exalted Deeds : mentioned in passing for remove addiction spell
Player Guide to Faerun : lesser(template), Maiden of Pain
Monster Manual II : Zenythri
Spell Compendium : primary reference for noncore spells
Races of destiny : scholar touch spell
Complete Champion : Body ward spell

[Thurbane]

Hello there!, It is I, Contestant X!

My mind goes like this : first I imagine a build, and THEN find some story that makes the build make sense.

When I was reading the combination and doing some preliminary furious research on how to make it work, I "GAH"-ed a lot,

this is my second entry, and my story-fu got drained away on my first entry, not that it has that much of a story either, I'm a creature of numbers :), so this is much more mechanical in presentation. There's been many iterations between then and this!

This one leans more on the "scary lady" vibe of things

My other build pushed hard into the PrC, you could almost say she takes 15 levels of it :D, pumped wisdom ad the expense of charisma, so the SLA were.. painful to think about :D

With that in mind, what I wanted to do with this second entry was:
1) Try to fit Thrall of Orcus in it somewhere, so lichloved is a bit less "tacked on" grumbles
2) Pump up charisma and make that Crushing Despair.. crushing!
3) build on the "a scourge is often used to deliver poison" and actually have poison use this time

So, my Ingredients are Poison Use, high charisma, Crushing Despair number pumping

In the end I dropped Thrall of Orcus, because the prerequisites are at the opposite ends of the Lawful/chaotic axis and thus incompatible with Scourge Maiden, but by then I was married to the idea of "Dark warrior lady of pain, bringing DOOM and making the mortals quivers in their pants!".

the only part that don't fits well "fluffwise" with the rest of the ingredients, to me, is the levels of Dragon Devotee. But I needed something that
a) had intimidate as a class skill!
b) gave me a fighter feat in a timely manner to qualify for blackguard in a painless manner
c) didn't give me multiclass penalties

That it gives a charisma bonus is just gravy on top. Level 8->20 used to be Thrall of Orcus 2/ Scourge Pain 3/ Thrall of Orcus 4 / Scourge Pain 6 / Blackguard 2, but alas, so I had to do some scrambling about to still get bonus feat to qualify for Blackguard and all the other things, so here we are. (It's blurbed in the story section after the level breakdown)


LE Favored Soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic weapon master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 4 / Blackguard 2
Lesser aasimar
Str 18 (16 +1 inherent +1 level up), Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12 (10+2racial), Cha 24(16+2 racial+2 PrC + 4 level up)
HP : 8+4d8+2d10+2d6+3d8+8d10+40 (141)
Saves
Fort 40 Ref 19 Will 30




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Favored Soul 1
+0
+2
+2
+2
Concentration +4, Craft(Alchemy) +1, Heal +4, Knowledge(Arcana) +3
Hidden Talent(Minor psionic creation)
Exotic Weapon Profiency(Scourge), Faith Healing, Bonus Language (Draconic)


2nd
Favored Soul 2
+1
+3
+3
+3
Concentration 4+1, Craft(Alchemy) 1+1, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft +1

Vile Presence (+2)


3rd
Favored Soul 3
+2
+3
+3
+3
Concentration 5+1, Craft(Alchemy) 2+2, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3 , Spellcraft 1
Power Attack
Deity's Favor


4th
Favored Soul 4 (+1CHA)
+3
+4
+4
+4
Concentration 6+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3 , Spellcraft 1, Use Rope 1(+2)

Vile Presence (+3)


5th
Favored Soul 5
+3
+4
+4
+4
Concentration 7+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1, Use Rope 2(2+2)

Resist Energy Fire 10


6th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 1
+4
+6
+4
+4
Concentration 8+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 3(4+2)
Iron Will
Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Smite Evil 1/day


7th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2
+5
+7
+4
+4
Concentration 9+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4(6+2)

Divine Grace , Deadly Touch


8th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 1 (+1CHA)
+5
+9
+4
+4
Concentration 10+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate +4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Ability increase (+2 Cha), natural armor(+1)


9th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2
+6/+1
+10
+4
+4
Concentration 11+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate 4+4, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
Initiate of Loviatar, Improved Sunder (bonus)
Combat technique, Draconic Resistance


10th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 1
+7/+2
+12
+4
+6
Concentration 12+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4, Speak language +2
Weapon Focus (Scourge), Insane Defiance (Bonus), Evil Brand (Bonus), Lichloved (Bonus)
Language Learned : Abyssal


11th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 2
+8/+3
+13
+4
+7
Concentration 13+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) +2, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Bane 3/day


12th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 (+1CHA)
+9/+4
+13
+5
+7
Concentration 14+1, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 2+2, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
True Believer
Crushing Despair 3/day


13th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1
+10/+5
+15
+5
+9
Concentration 15, Craft(Alchemy) 4, Craft(Weaponsmithing) +3, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Mettle


14th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1
+11/+6/+1
+17
+5
+9
Concentration 15, Craft(Alchemy) 4+3, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Uncanny Blow)


15th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 1
+12/+7/+2
+19
+5
+11
Concentration 15+1, Craft(Alchemy) 7, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) +4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
Boost Spell-like Ability(Crushing Despair), Chosen of Evil (bonus)
Black magic oil (Inherent +1 STR)


16th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 2 (+1CHA)
+13/+8/+3
+20
+5
+12
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 7+5, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Darkling weapon


17th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 3
+14/+9/+4
+20
+6
+12
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 12+5, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
Cleave (bonus)
Black magic elixir (Violent Knowledge)


18th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 4
+15/+10/+5
+21
+6
+13
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 17, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Hide +5 , Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
Spell-Like Ability Focus(Crushing Despair)
Black magic oil (Malign Fury)


19th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 4 / Blackguard 1
+16/+11/+6/+1
+23
+6
+13
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 17+3, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Hide 5 , Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4

Poison Use


20th
Favored soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 4 / Blackguard 2 (+1STR)
+17/+12/+7/+2
+24
+6
+13
Concentration 16, Craft(Alchemy) 20+3, Craft(Weaponsmithing) 3, Hide 5 , Heal 4, Intimidate 8, Knowledge(Arcana) 3, Knowledge(Religion) 4, Knowledge(The planes) 4, Spellcraft 1 , Use rope 4
Enemy of Good (bonus)
Dark Blessing, Smite Good 1/day




Relevant stats : wisdom 12, Charisma 18 (1-7), 22(8-15), 24(16-20)
the spell slots listed are from Favored soul+Scourge Maiden, B are spells from Pious Templar/Blackguard (they share the list), the numbers includes bonus spell slot from high ability modifier, but no item is assumed. The assumed prepared spell for the templar/blackguard slots are Blade of Blood and/or Faith healing. The Spell known column is the list of new favored soul spells learned at that level, if applicable
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
Spell Known


1st
5
4
-
-
0th: Cure Minor Wounds, Mending, Guidance, Create Water
1st: Faith healing, Blade of Blood, Conviction


2nd
6
5
-
-
0th: Light


3rd
6
6
-
-
1st: Shield of Faith


4th
6
7
4
-
0th: Purify Food and drink
2nd:Divine Insight, Lesser Restoration, Silence


5th
6
7
5
-
1st: Divine Favor


6th
6
7
5
-
-


7th
6
7
5
-



8th
6
8
6
-
-


9th
6
8
6
-
-


10th
6
8
7
4
0th: Read Magic
2nd: Resist Energy
3rd: Mystic Lash, Dispel Magic, Antidragon Aura


11th
6
8
7
4
-


12th
6
8
8
5
1st: Drug resistance


13th
6
8+1B
8
5
-


14th
6
8+1B
8
5
-


15th
6
8+1B
8
5
-


16th
6
8+1B
8
6
-


17th
6
8+1B
8
6
-


18th
6
8+1B
8
6
-


19th
6
8+2B
8
6
-


20th
6
8+3B
8
6
-


nonsrd spells :
Faith healing: heals 8+CL max 5 an ally of same faith
Blade of blood: touched weapon does extra 1d6, 3d6 if 5 damage is paid as extra cost
Conviction: +2/3 morale bonus to all saves 10min/level
Divine Insight: 5+CL insight bonus to one skill check
Mystc lash: round/level indipendend whip that does touch attacks for 1d8+ CL/2 damage, successfull attacks causes stunning on failed fortitude saves
Antidragon aura: +2 luck bonus to AC and saves againsst dragons
Drug resistance: target immune to addiction


The nameless acolyte that will later come to be known as The Dark Lady of pain and sorrow grew up in the sword coast region. Early in her life she was indoctrinated / a member of the cult of the dragon, old style dracoliches, not like those younguns nowadays that want to rise Tiamat :)
She was shunned and picked on, because her faith was apparently "not enough" to manifest properly, so "squandering" the divine gift.
of course she couldn't know at the time that Tiamat wasn't the source of her divine abilities...

There isn't a lot to be said about tactics at these levels, a divine gish is a divine gish, no matter how many times we reheat it :), I want to mention that she thinks her powers come from Tiamat, indoctrination does that for you, but storywise, she is very confused that her healing spells only seems to work on herself, and she can't seems to make sense of how to use an heavy pick in combat, so after some "disastrous" training at level 0.5-1, she'll be using a spear during these levels.
At least her selfhealing is significant, at 13HP+3THP a pop, and the slots to burn are plenty, courtesy of the high charisma

level 1-5: what can she do, other than go poke things with the pointy end, occasionally with the bloody pointy end, and occasionally healing herself, that's, that's about it.

She has this penchant that sometimes she wishes really hard for something nice... and Ice cream materializes out of nowhere!

She has an initial dabble on the alchemical side of things, perhabs recreational, who knows! And inexplicably she has a growing.. fascination... with ropes O_O

level 6-9: She gets much beefier in resisting effects, and to her mounting frustation she keeps on breaking her weapon... (:D)

It was while out and about doing waht cultists do that she discovers Loviatar! Who are these people, they are MY people! And what is THIS weapon? This, this whip! it fits perfectly in my hand! And the pain! Such pain! Such pleasure! Down with the yoke of the cult! I'm a new girl!


10-12: It's BFFs time, what things they do in the temples of Loviatar. I'm flavoring this with a side of Elder Evils, probably not Orcus? and I'm frontloading the language and the bonus feats at this level to make sense of a "singular contact", speaking Abyssal/infernal justify making and Elder Evil pact, what she "wants" is the (insane defiance) power to defy her draconic taskmasters and the capacity to slink away from the "common rabble" mindless undead of the low ranks

Sidenote: At least blade of blood triggers Initiate of Loviatar power, too bad it's a morale bonus, but hey! free is free :) and the lash spell is marginally usable as a gish

tactics: we're a gish same as before, we whack things in melee! Crushign Despair at this level has only DC 20, but there is a minor combo with insane defiance: include yourself in the cone! then redirect it to the enemy, he'll now have to save twice and one of those is at -4!

13-14: WE FOUND THE HOLY MOLY SCOURGE OF THE GODDESS (author note: except not, because there is no Loviatar relic in the MIC :(, but we can pretend otherwise!), so, now that we found the scourge to end all scourges, we dedicate ourself a tiny bit in being the relative best possible at using it, right?

We aren't immune to will/fortitude things yet, but we might as well be and it'll only get better later on.

More to the point, At least now we can use that power attack that has been lying around since forever with a 1:2 trade. Kinda late, but eh
15-18: The goddess bid us be anointed in her most sacred rites, to bring PAIN to the world!

Warrior of darkness is kinda cool for a martial PrC, relative easy entry at least, and FINALLY we have a pouncelike! And now our Crushing Despair has a respectable further 2+2+1 to the DC, To make the mooks despair that much easier!
Darkling weapon is cool for "pushing" our "notrelic" scourge at +6 equivalent somehow, or have that expensive +3 wrathful healing but still some other +1 effect "at no cost"

19-20: let's double dip on our CHA to saves, shall we? =) and not poison/drug ourselves with the poison/drugs we create with minor psionic creation for the purpose of applying them to our notrelic. We always ahve the Alchemy to back it up anyway!


Faith healing ACF: can always take 10 on heal checks when treating member sof the same faith
Vile presence ACF: variable bonus to "charisma" when using charisma skills with members of the same faith
Deity's Favor ACF: when casting a spell that affects an ally, can grant that ally spelllevelx3 THP
Aura of Evil: will be detected by detect evil spell
Detect good: at will SLA as the spell
Smite good: 1(1)/day add CHA to attack roll and Paladin(Blackguard) level to damage
Divine Grace: untyped bonus to all saves equal to CHA mod
Deadly touch: pool of touch damage equal to CHA mod x paladin level
Combat tecnique: bonus feat from fighter list
Draconic Resistance: untyped +4 vs paralysis and sleep effects
Bane: SLA 3/day DC18-24
Crushing Despair: SLA 3/day DC 25-31
Mettle: succesfull save for half on will/fort will instead negate the effect
Exotic Weapon Stunt(Uncanny blow): can wield 1h exotic weapon in 2h and use 1.5 str bonus to damage and 2x power attack calculation
Black Magic Oil(Hellpower): +1 inherent strenght
Darkling weapon: for 1/day add a +1 effect to weapon
Black Magic Elixir(Violent knowledge): extra talent from sublist
Black Magic Oil(Malign Fury): 3/day can do a full attack action after a move action
Poison Use: can apply poison without fail chance
Dark Blessing: untyped bonus to all saves equal to CHA mod


Complete Divine: Favored soul base class, Pious Templar PrC
Complete Warrior: Exotic Weapon Master PrC
Expanded psionic handbook: Hidden talent feat
Dead levels II (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x): Faith healing, Vile presence ACF
PHBII: Deity's Favor ACF, Blade of blood spell
UA: Paladin of Tyranny ACF
Races of the Dragon: Dragon Devotee PrC
Champions of Ruin: Initiate of Loviatar feat
Elder Evils: vile feats taken
Magic Item Compendium: True believer feat
Book of Vile Darkness: Warrior of Darkness PrC, Drug rules, Boost Spell-like Ability feat, drug resistance spell
Races of Faerun: Spell-like Ability Focus feat
Player guide to Faerun: Lesser(template)
Races of Destiny: Aasimar Race
Dragon Magic: how to qualify for Initiate of Loviatar
Magic of faerun : mystc lash spell
Spell Compendium:primary reference for the other nonsrd spells( faith healing, conviction, divine insight, antidragon aura)

[Thurbane]

...and that's it. Two is definitely better than one.

I was going to submit a "chair's entry", that obviously wouldn't have been eligible for a placing, but I ran out of time.

In the interests of transparency, both entries are from the same competitor, so I'll leave it up to the judges how they want to handle this.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, we have a Maiden squared, and a not-so-Maiden. I still believe making the ruling for initiates public would have made more people enter, without losing too much of the build restriction itself, but what is done is done.

About how to handle this, I really don't think anybody is gonna submit anything this late, so I will just rate these, and the submitter will get the medal just for the achievement of submitting

[Thurbane]

So, we have a Maiden squared, and a not-so-Maiden. I still believe making the ruling for initiates public would have made more people enter, without losing too much of the build restriction itself, but what is done is done.

About how to handle this, I really don't think anybody is gonna submit anything this late, so I will just rate these, and the submitter will get the medal just for the achievement of submitting

Thank you Beni-Kujaku. :smallsmile: And point taken about making the initiate rules public.

Next time around, I think I'll make the ingredients a bit more accessible. My reasoning for these ingredients was because it was round XXX. In hindsight, Cleric as forbidden ingredient may have been ill conceived.

Also, if anyone has any requests or suggestions about future rounds, now is as good a time as any to post here. :smallsmile:

[Beni-Kujaku]

And the fastest judging you will ever see is now completed! The contestant can write their disputes directly, I don't think there is much need to conceal their identity further.




Do I want a long whip or 9 short ones ? Decisions, decisions…

Elegance:
• I like the fluff. A post-apocalyptic world isn’t something you see everyday in D&D, and it is really well-integrated in your characterization. This really is a story-based build, and I appreciate that. The idea of a Violated Consecrate made me scratch my head for a few seconds… How would that work ? Do you have both Good and Evil descriptors ? Would the maidens accept that ? Anyway, that is a really cool addition. (Also, the settlement seemed to be on the surface, right, since you could only go there when lichloved ? How does that work, wouldn’t the Maidens be overwhelmed by shadows pretty quickly ?) Too bad that there is nothing about how a lesser Zenythri got herself on the Material Plane in the frst place.
•You're swearing service to Demogorgon! This no sells worshipping Loviatar to me! No, really. And that is for at least two reasons, possibly three. First, I agree that it is theoretically possible to swear allegiance to an Elder Evil while worshipping a god. Elder Evil even gives the example of Edwin Tolstoff, cleric of Nerull and servant of Kyuss. However… Well… Demogorgon is not an Elder Evil. He is a demon prince, and probably a deity. And while being at the service of an Elder Evil could be accepted if the will of the deity and the Elder Evil, a Prince Demon is definitely off-limits, especially for a Lawful deity. Apart from that, Elder Evils are defined as being opposed to the gods in almost every way, and want nothing but the end of all living things, so except Nerull, really no god would ally with them. Even among the neutral and lawful Elder Evils, one has been exiled by the gods because she wanted to destroy all humanoids, one is a superweapon specifically to kill all gods, and the last one favors mindless undead more than anything else, and is supposedly the « inversion » of all gods. I see nothing here that a goddess of pain and her shadow-hunting servant would consider even remotely acceptable to follow. So yeah. I didn’t like that.
• I don’t think you can take Initiate of Loviatar. Dragon Magic says « A class that must select a deity and that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting ». Archivist doesn’t have to select a deity and, by strict RAW, Maiden of Pain is not a spellcasting class. Note that it doesn’t have a « Spellcasting » ability, just a « spells per day/spell known ». Which means it doesn’t have a spell list and can’t qualify for Initiate of Loviatar. Also you don’t « select a deity » since you must have Loviatar, but that’s secondary.
• The build is really clean. The skill points and the build choices are well-documented, and there is no over-multiclassing. Good point.
• I liked the « maiden » theme, even though they kinda contradict each other. No negative, no positive here.
• if they have friendly arcane casters around, also from ANY arcane list those friendly spellcasters have access to. I didn’t know that. My Boccob that’s a dumb thing, and definitely not intended. No influence on points of course, but by the dead Weave of Mystril is that a big oversight which makes an already overpowered class even worse.
• Score: 1.75 The use of Elder Evils for bonus feats is already borderline cheese, and the misuse of it really rubbed me the wrong way. Moreover, the fact that you might not qualify for the SI is a big point of contention. However, the rest of the build is exemplar (of evil), so that’s good, and your story is pretty good.

Originality:
• Lesser planetouched is a pretty well-known way to get above average races, but Zenythri is not the most well-known so there’s that.
• Strongheart Vest plus ability damage feats is not particularly new either.
•Even if I didn’t like it, I have to admit that combining Elder Evils and Initiate is something that I wouldn’t have considered, and that is pretty interesting. Plus, the Violated (Consecrate) is so much of a weird combination that I can’t help but give it some points.
•The Maiden of Pain giving cleric spells even though you don’t have cleric levels is really good. I’m not sure it works, but if it does (and I assume it does), that very original. Using the agonizing touch of the scourge maiden to fuel the agony of the maiden of pain also was good thinking, and neither of the classes is used much, so that’s interesting.
• Apart from these, none of your feats or spells really struck me as particularly original, just standard bonuses to your combat prowesses, and no really interesting combo either, as far as I see.
• Score: 3.75 Some of your originality stems from the SI, but the use of Maiden of Pain was interesting and thematic, even though it may have been a bit better used.

Power:
• Sorry, but Scourge Maiden cannot increase Maiden of Pain’s spellcasting. Maiden of Pain is not a spellcasting class by itself, and you don’t get real cleric levels, only the spellcasting. Which means the only legal option for improved spellcasting by the Scourge Maiden is on the Archivist. So you only have 4th level spells. That… Is really low. For a character who took archivist levels, one of the strongest spellcasting class in the game, that is a bit disappointing. You would probably have been better off with just favored soul 5/Scourge Maiden 6/Any full casting PrC 9, which would have given you 8th level spells at least.
• You never know what weapon to use. If you use a whip, then you can’t use your strikes. If you use your scourge, then you can’t use touch spells and have no reach.
•Interesting use of Archivist to add all cleric spells to your archivist list, but since you already add 4 spells of each level with pure archivist, that is a bit redundant.
•Your vile feats are good, notably Insane Defiance and Chosen of Evil, but they don’t really synergize with the rest of the build.
• Score: 2 I just don’t see Daralei thriving at high level, even compared to other Scourge Maidens

UoSI:
•6 levels of the SI. That’s good, but not enough by itself
• Well, that seems more like a Maiden of Pain build than a scourge maiden one. There’s no fear optimization, and you dumped charisma despite maxing Intimidate. You seem like you would use a whip way more than your scourge. I would have loved to see a TWF build with Oversized TWF, you would have stunned a heck of a lot of people.
• Also, you take the SI really late. I know it’s hard to qualify, but spending more than half your progression without it seems a bit too long for me.
•No stunning strike optimization either. Just one level of monk would have given you 1 stunning strike, plus ¼ levels, so up to 5 more strikes per day at level 17 (due to the wording « you may attempt a stunning attack » present in both abilities, which means you can use the stunning fists attempts to fuel your stunning strike). That would have helped alleviate a bit the harsh limitation on Scourge Maiden abilities.
• Score: 2 Really not that well used, even though I understand that there was not much to use in the first place.


Final Thoughts:
• Really good theme, but the execution is a bit messy and questionable from place to place. I was expecting really unique things, and apart from the agony thing, I didn’t really find them. And this kind of bland build didn’t translate much into power.
• Total: 9




-Have you never considered that you might be a bit too… How do I say it… Cartoonishly edgy ?
-Whaaaaaaaaat ? Noooooooo ! And if I am, it’s only because I was abducted at birth by a cult of evil dragons, but that’s not what I identified as.
Elegance:
• A bit too much mutliclassing to my taste, but no multiclassing penalty, so congrats.
• Good focus of the build. You know what you want (Cha up, then use fear effects and Saves to get invincible), and I appreciate that.
• Waaaaaaay too long between feats and the pay off. 10 for Power Attack, and 18 (!) for Minor Creation (since, let’s be honest, you’re not gonna use it much before you can use poison)
• Lots of low-rank skills, but no cross-class. Not too bad.
• Same as Daralei, Loviatar would not accept you ally with Elder Evils, and Orcus is a Demon Prince, not an Elder Evil. Really that seems like a cheap trick to get 5 bonus feats for no cost, and that wouldn’t work in any campaign. I don’t like that at all.
•Are we playing with dead levels ? I’m pretty sure they are illegal in all other competitions, but since they don’t do much, I won’t remove points.
• Score: 2.5 Lots of things I don’t like. Still pretty thematic and really clean build, I thank you for that.

Originality:
• Ah, the usual « Be a paladin, pump your charisma, then use it for as many things as possible ». It is quite strong, but not the most original by itself, and using one of the most famously (infamously ?) strong LA+0 race for a Cha-based character doesn’t help your case that much. (I love when I can reuse an entire paragraph from another competition I judged, that’s less work, but less so when I have to reuse it in the Originality section)
• Minor psionic creation to create poison is not really original either.
•I really don’t see anything that I didn’t know, or used uniquely.
• Same as Daralei, combining Elder Evils with a deity is kinda interesting. At least Daralei justified it with lore, though.
• Score: 1.5 The concept itself is not that unique, and everything is really expected.

Power:
• Here we are. My, my, these are some good saves, with Mettle on top of it. You will be hard to take down, and even your reflex save is not bad.
• Kind of low level spells, and the build is slow to really take off.
• You gave me hope when speaking of poisons, but you only become able to use them safely at level 19, where a heck of a lot of enemies have immunity to it. You do have a good Fort, but if you want to use Black Lotus extract, you really don’t want to even have 5% to poison yourself. I would have preferred the levels of Blackguard earlier, or just the Master of Poison feat to use poison several times a fight (in the end, you already have extremely good saves, so you might not even need Blackguard, which you might have replaced by an Evasion-granting class or another class that improves your offense, that is kind of low right now). Still, being able to deal 3d6 Con on non-immune opponents, potentially from level 1, is really good.
•I’m… 90% sure you can’t use a cone by including yourself in it, but if you can that’s a good use of insane defiance… Or it would be if you had Strongheart Vest. Did you forget to take it or do you intend to take ability damage whenever you use one of your SLAs ? Moreover, your SLAs really help reduce the saves of your opponents, but I would like that you precise what you want to do with it. For example, saying that you want a domineering scourge with your darkling weapon, which would allow you to frighten your enemies with your blows.
•16+ BAB, and Warrior of Darkness giving Pounce. Good things all-around.
• Score: 3.5 You are really strong, that’s for sure, and your high saves will make you hard to take down, but your offensive abilities are kind of unfocused, and I would have liked to see more save-or-suck spells to take advantage of your SLAs.

UoSI:
• That is much better than Daralei, with abilities to improve your scourge, and to improve your DCs, then to use your SLAs. Plus, this seems more a gish using the Scourge Maiden’s full BAB than the previous one, that felt like a spellcaster who occasionally used a whip. The build seems to focus on the scourge maiden and improve on it more than being handicapped by it (still a bit handicapped, of course, but that’s the nature of the class, that’s inevitable).
• However, only 3 levels, even if that allows for more focus, makes the Use of the SI incomplete, and I can’t do anything else than make you lose a few points for it.
• Score: 3.5


Final Thoughts:
• This build seems really good at first glance, with a nice theme and lots of interacting abilities. However, it seems it doesn’t go all the way to where it could. I would have liked it to focus either on poison or on fear (probably fear), and not have half of each but not have it strong enough to be really an asset.
• Total: 11



Anyway, really an immense congratulation to the contestant for having the courage to finish these builds with both a frankly awful prestige class and a harsh restriction. Thank you very much.

[ciopo]

Thank you for judging! no dispute, what would even be the point? but I can share my musings, if you're interested in the banter




I like the fluff. A post-apocalyptic world isn’t something you see everyday in D&D, and it is really well-integrated in your characterization. This really is a story-based build, and I appreciate that. The idea of a Violated Consecrate made me scratch my head for a few seconds… How would that work ? Do you have both Good and Evil descriptors ? Would the maidens accept that ? Anyway, that is a really cool addition. (Also, the settlement seemed to be on the surface, right, since you could only go there when lichloved ?
You're giving me too much credit. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but choosing consecrate as the violated spell was just a moment of fancy, I felt it would be cool conceptually precisely because it's an headscratcher on how it would work. In other words it would be fun/appealing as a table scene, but I haven't thought out the ramifications of it because I'm the player, not the GM, and that's more of a curveball I'd be throwing at my friend and see what he'd make of it.

I haven't thought of any settlement as being underground, in my mind eye there are sparse and far from each other settlement over the world, kept safe by consecrate/hallow. Movement between such safe places would be very uncommon, the place where the Loviatar clergy lives just so happen to be the "next town over" from wherever Daralei started in.


Too bad that there is nothing about how a lesser Zenythri got herself on the Material Plane in the frst place.My understanding of the "lesser" semi-template is that whatever race we're lessening have gone 100% native, so basically they are naturalized like any race, and not really from elsewhere anymore?

On elder evils: I admit I picked the worship more or less at random. My table is of the "no evil PC" leaning, and I was and still am unfamiliar with Elder evils (the book). at first I was picking lichloved with my normal feats! It was only later, in the pursuit of tax evasion, that I discovered that blurb about swearing service. The only reason I picked Demogorgon is that they were descrived as opposing Orcus, and Orcus is the undead guy so I felt it could make sense, that's about it.
Likewise for the second entry, I picked Orcus because a good 60% of the workshopping of that entry was trying to make a thrall of orcus + dread witch work with the SI.

I think I have to disagree with them not being Elder Evils, because the Elder Evils book specifically calls them out as being Elder Evils, but I only skimmed it, so yeah, I'm not going to gainsay you!
I personally disliked taking them as extra feats, which is part of the reason I "frontloaded" getting lichloved in one go at level 5, that way I felt I could justify "betraying" the elder evil for Loviatar after having achieved the paying of my taxes, I only stuck to them because it didn't sit right with me to take the feats just for the sake of the competition without at least figuring out a reason for the character to have the feat.

On Initiate qualifing as Daralei: I'm not qualifying as Archivist, but as Maiden of Pain indeed. I do it by the little nuance of how Maiden of Pain describes how it advances spellcasting. Unlike usual PrC of that ilk, it specifically says "new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in cleric" . This quirk of the language appealed to me, because I like convoluted ways to do things just a little differently. My main argument in favor of it granting spellcasting hinges around the fact that when a PrC that advances spellcasting chooses to advance cleric spellcasting, you gain domain spell slot, too. Stricly speaking what allows cleric to cast spells is a feature called "Spells", not "Spellcasting". It's the kind of little technicalities I take immense joy being "clever" about

On strongheart vest (and pumping it) : it's all for surviving shadows actually, adding vile feats that causes self-ability damage is a conseguence/afterthough, storywise Daralei would be just the same without any of the vile feats, it's not like we "need" lichloved to travel once Hide from undeath gets to a long enough duration and/or we start unlocking higher level slots.


Sorry, but Scourge Maiden cannot increase Maiden of Pain’s spellcasting. Maiden of Pain is not a spellcasting class by itself, and you don’t get real cleric levels, only the spellcasting. Which means the only legal option for improved spellcasting by the Scourge Maiden is on the Archivist. So you only have 4th level spells. That… Is really low. For a character who took archivist levels, one of the strongest spellcasting class in the game, that is a bit disappointing. You would probably have been better off with just favored soul 5/Scourge Maiden 6/Any full casting PrC 9, which would have given you 8th level spells at least.

I agree, but I was 100% set on avoiding the "obvious" entry of favored soul for the first submission, so i'm paying my due for that :)

You never know what weapon to use. If you use a whip, then you can’t use your strikes. If you use your scourge, then you can’t use touch spells and have no reach.
Mandatory "argument" about "Is a scourge a whip?", but that joke aside, my bad I should actually wrote this esplictly: Daralei actually is TWF a whip and a scourge. I checked and we can hold a weapon in each hand, we don't *have* to make an offhand attack, so when I want to use the whip for touch attacks, I use only the whip as a one hand weapon, while I'm holding a different one handed weapon that I'm not using on that turn.
Same thing for the scourge when I want to use a strike on that specific round.
Reiterating the mandatory "argument" about "is a scourge a whip?" :D

I just don’t see Daralei thriving at high level, even compared to other Scourge Maidens
It's kinda intentional, her motivation changed from "learn all the things" to "be autonomous in making her daily Liquid pain dose", from this point of view she sadly very much became an NPC cloistered away in the main Loviatar compound


No stunning strike optimization either. Just one level of monk would have given you 1 stunning strike, plus ¼ levels, so up to 5 more strikes per day at level 17 (due to the wording « you may attempt a stunning attack » present in both abilities, which means you can use the stunning fists attempts to fuel your stunning strike). That would have helped alleviate a bit the harsh limitation on Scourge Maiden abilities.
I have a strong aversion to dip if I don't make use of everything the dip would give me, and more so if it results in multiclass penalties.
My table doesn't use them, but I'm mindful of not getting any. I did consider monk, precisely because of stunning strike, but it rubbed me the wrong way because I wouldn't make use of IUS and I couldn't find a way to make the scourge a monk weapon, it's the kind of inelegance I stay far away.
Needed explanation/disclaimer : if I submit two builds, you can fairly expect my first one to be mostly "simple and elegant" and my second one to be mostly "wacky and hyper focused on some strange concept"
---- DLoPaS

A bit too much mutliclassing to my taste, but no multiclassing penalty, so congrats.
You'll never catch me taking a multiclass penalty! Except maybe a 1level dip at the 20th level, because it wont' matter then


Waaaaaaay too long between feats and the pay off. 10 for Power Attack, and 18 (!) for Minor Creation (since, let’s be honest, you’re not gonna use it much before you can use poison)
I know! but try it, combining these specific feats with these specific classes, there's very little wiggle room :( I hate long pay off!


Are we playing with dead levels ? I’m pretty sure they are illegal in all other competitions, but since they don’t do much, I won’t remove points.
Uh, I had no idea those are illegal, that's more a question for the chair I feel, I haven't seen any mention toward that


• Minor psionic creation to create poison is not really original either.
• You gave me hope when speaking of poisons, but you only become able to use them safely at level 19, where a heck of a lot of enemies have immunity to it. You do have a good Fort, but if you want to use Black Lotus extract, you really don’t want to even have 5% to poison yourself. I would have preferred the levels of Blackguard earlier, or just the Master of Poison feat to use poison several times a fight (in the end, you already have extremely good saves, so you might not even need Blackguard, which you might have replaced by an Evasion-granting class or another class that improves your offense, that is kind of low right now). Still, being able to deal 3d6 Con on non-immune opponents, potentially from level 1, is really good.
I know.
I wanted it to create drugs actually, BoVD implies heavily that drugs are functionally same as poison, you can consider the whole "poison use" an euphemism for "drug use", the sad thing is there is no RAW that says "whatever works for poison, you can use it for drugs", so it didn't feel right to me making the case that we could "poison use" but with drugs. For an actual campaign, where we go by RAI and the GM would allow to make use of "poison support" but for drugs, the intended creation is actually luhix, which iirc is a DC32 save or die, more or less. I'm not going to check that vile book again (:D sorry I love wordplays). There is a little possible quirk here, of "having your cake and eat it too", because more or less no creature is explictly immune to drugs, unless I missed a paragraph in the vile book that says that creatures immune to poisons are immune to drugs. I would frown heavily if someone told me "I want to apply the benefit of Poison use to drugs" and "it's not poison, ti's drug, they're not immune!", but I would probably accept homebrewing a feat called "drug use", and they are, as a substance, different enough that I can see how a creature immune to poison might still suffer the effect of Luhix


I’m… 90% sure you can’t use a cone by including yourself in it, but if you can that’s a good use of insane defiance… Or it would be if you had Strongheart Vest. Did you forget to take it or do you intend to take ability damage whenever you use one of your SLAs ? Moreover, your SLAs really help reduce the saves of your opponents, but I would like that you precise what you want to do with it. For example, saying that you want a domineering scourge with your darkling weapon, which would allow you to frighten your enemies with your blows. My recovery from insane defiance is just the lesser restoration in this case, Soul ward was strongly considered there, but ultimately I found that self inflicted pain was thematic for a scourge maiden, and so went for restorative measures instead of preventive measures.
I was going heavy duty on fear with thrall of orcus + dread witch, but that got discarded because :
* conflict of alignment
* Dread witch doesn't actually improve Su and Sp abilities
* Crushing despair isn't an actual fear effect ( that's what really killed the dread witch ), and it doesn't even have a visual effect to attach the dread witch rider, either :( I really wanted to go for that, but unless I did meta spell-like shenanigans to make the crushign despair SLA have a visual effect, there wasn't much avenue to pursue here
*Divine bard specifically says they don't have to follow any specific deity MASSIVE GRUMBLE

I'm mostly sure you can't include yourself in a cone either, but then I thought "I can imagine casting burning hands myself, like, I point them toward me, and I plus everybody behind me get the cone, so why not do that with a mental effect like crushign despair?"
In a more crunchy argument, cone is "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes."
that "away from you" is evidence that we can't include ourselves, and peace to us all, but I can see a munchkin argument being made about "starting at the SE corner and directing it NW", and I thought it too funny not to include it in the "wacky" entry


I'm like, very surprised dark lady scored better than Daralei, especially that it scored well in *power* of all things, but I suppose it does have PA+pounce and very high saves, so yeah I can see that
still surprised :D



Thanks again for judging my escapades!



Thank you Beni-Kujaku. :smallsmile: And point taken about making the initiate rules public.

Next time around, I think I'll make the ingredients a bit more accessible. My reasoning for these ingredients was because it was round XXX. In hindsight, Cleric as forbidden ingredient may have been ill conceived.

Also, if anyone has any requests or suggestions about future rounds, now is as good a time as any to post here. :smallsmile:

What about some combination of ingredients that would lend themself well to a "theurge" style PrC, but forbid the theurge?

or in alternative, "theurge" ingredient, but forbid the obvious entries to the theurge. or I don't know, forbid prepared so we'll take two spontaneous

I'm madly curious if there are any other way we could have qualified for Initiate of Loviatar/the SI of this round, only one I can think of is races with native cleric spellcasting, but they would fail the "must worship"

[Beni-Kujaku]

Thank you for judging! no dispute, what would even be the point? but I can share my musings, if you're interested in the banter

Who do you take me for? Of course I'm interested!



You're giving me too much credit. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but choosing consecrate as the violated spell was just a moment of fancy, I felt it would be cool conceptually precisely because it's an headscratcher on how it would work. In other words it would be fun/appealing as a table scene, but I haven't thought out the ramifications of it because I'm the player, not the GM, and that's more of a curveball I'd be throwing at my friend and see what he'd make of it.

I haven't thought of any settlement as being underground, in my mind eye there are sparse and far from each other settlement over the world, kept safe by consecrate/hallow. Movement between such safe places would be very uncommon, the place where the Loviatar clergy lives just so happen to be the "next town over" from wherever Daralei started in.

Yeah, that's what I figured, I didn't expect you to think about how it would work, but the mere idea of a spell with both descriptors made me chuckle a bit. I figured the settlements should be underground, or at least really well protected, just because Hallow doesn't strictly prevent shadows from entering, just from creating spawns.




I think I have to disagree with them not being Elder Evils, because the Elder Evils book specifically calls them out as being Elder Evils, but I only skimmed it, so yeah, I'm not going to gainsay you!
I personally disliked taking them as extra feats, which is part of the reason I "frontloaded" getting lichloved in one go at level 5, that way I felt I could justify "betraying" the elder evil for Loviatar after having achieved the paying of my taxes, I only stuck to them because it didn't sit right with me to take the feats just for the sake of the competition without at least figuring out a reason for the character to have the feat.

Just... No. The only times Orcus and Demogorgon are even mentioned in the book is during the campaign descriptions, where Orcus is manipulated by Atropus, the strongest of the Elder Evils and very undead-oriented, to invade the realm of Demogorgon, and another time where Demogorgon is described as being pretty okay with Leviathan destroying the world.




On Initiate qualifing as Daralei: I'm not qualifying as Archivist, but as Maiden of Pain indeed. I do it by the little nuance of how Maiden of Pain describes how it advances spellcasting. Unlike usual PrC of that ilk, it specifically says "new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in cleric" . My main argument in favor of it granting spellcasting hinges around the fact that when a PrC that advances spellcasting chooses to advance cleric spellcasting, you gain domain spell slot, too.

I agree that it grants you spellcasting (some might not, but I can take this step). However, the spellcasting it grants is separate from the class. It's not a spellcasting class, but it grants you spells per day and spells known. Which means it doesn't "use the cleric spell list for spellcasting", since the class itself does not use spellcasting.




Mandatory "argument" about "Is a scourge a whip?", but that joke aside, my bad I should actually wrote this esplictly: Daralei actually is TWF a whip and a scourge. I checked and we can hold a weapon in each hand, we don't *have* to make an offhand attack, so when I want to use the whip for touch attacks, I use only the whip as a one hand weapon, while I'm holding a different one handed weapon that I'm not using on that turn.
Same thing for the scourge when I want to use a strike on that specific round.
Reiterating the mandatory "argument" about "is a scourge a whip?" :D
Oh! I think I might add +0.5 in power just for that. Not more, since it is still unoptimal to only use one one-handed weapon to attack, and since, by Ambidexterity (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-30--106/ambidexterity--3321/index.html) unupdated rules, you have -4 to hit with one of those. And, yeah, of scourge course the scourge is a whip, but not for the rules, like a spiked chain is definitely a chain, but won't have the same feats apply.



It's kinda intentional, her motivation changed from "learn all the things" to "be autonomous in making her daily Liquid pain dose", from this point of view she sadly very much became an NPC cloistered away in the main Loviatar compound
This is so sad, can we get to 1500 likes? No, really, that's a good tragic story, but not that much adapted to an optimization challenge.




I wanted it to create drugs actually, BoVD implies heavily that drugs are functionally same as poison, you can consider the whole "poison use" an euphemism for "drug use", the sad thing is there is no RAW that says "whatever works for poison, you can use it for drugs", so it didn't feel right to me making the case that we could "poison use" but with drugs. For drugs, the intended creation is actually luhix, which iirc is a DC32 save or die, more or less.

We have that effects that negate or halt poison affect drugs so that may be fair game, if we say that "not risking to poison yourself" can be understood as "negating the poisoning". Also, luhix is a DC 25 SoD if you take at least 2 doses, but drugs are pretty clearly not meant to be used in combat. For example, luhix is supposedly applied in a "bleeding, self-inflicted wound" that is then magically closed. I would rule that you can't put enough powder on your blade to have a significant effect when wounding someone during a fight, or at least that you need more than 2 applications to get the SoD. (also, DC 30 Alchemy is a harsh requirement)



I'm like, very surprised dark lady scored better than Daralei, especially that it scored well in *power* of all things, but I suppose it does have PA+pounce and very high saves, so yeah I can see that
I'm more surprised that DLoPaS was the wacky one, it was very much more expected, and used more well-known and less questionable techniques than Daralei, who was more interesting but less "in-depth" optimized with the scourge and the whip combination.




or in alternative, "theurge" ingredient, but forbid the obvious entries to the theurge. or I don't know, forbid prepared so we'll take two spontaneous

I'm madly curious if there are any other way we could have qualified for Initiate of Loviatar/the SI of this round, only one I can think of is races with native cleric spellcasting, but they would fail the "must worship"


I am all for the "no prepared" ingredient. Spontaneous don't see so much play, and it would be nice to see what people can find with sorcerer-only spells or with some bard shenanigans.

About the initiate feats, I think there's only one way, not counting DrMag. Mystic and Ur-Priest specifically don't worship, that's their whole thing. Occular Adept can theoretically work, though. You change your patron deity to the Great Mother, you gain 6 levels in Ocular Adept, then you change your patron deity again to Loviatar, the Great Mother disintegrates you for disobedience. You get resurrected, lose a level and all special abilities of Ocular Adept, but you still have 5 levels in a class that uses cleric spell list for spellcasting and requires to choose a deity. So you can do that. Eh, I said there was a way, not that there was a good way!

If dragon magazine is on the table, there is the Knight of the Chase, a terrible PrC that requires you to worship a Chaotic Good deity. You will need some harsh reconversion, or a helm of opposite alignment, but at least you won't get disintegrated by an implanted eye.

[Thurbane]

So, I currently have three ideas for next round:


Something mount related.
Something undead related.
Something theurge-but-not related (as suggested by ciopo).

I'm leaning towards mount related, since this round was caster related.

[mattie_p]

Undead mount?

[Thurbane]

Undead mount?

Hmmm...no, I think I'll keep those two categories separate for now. :smallbiggrin:

Also, was there any more judging to come? I know there were some expressions of interest, but since the competitor has revealed themselves after first judging, I'll wait and see if there is any more to come.

[EDIT] Here's the bare bones of the weird entry I was working on: Favored Soul 6/Death Delver 2/Scourge Maiden 6/RKV 6. It was supposed to be some weird Paladin type thing, with two sources of casting (FS 6, and DD9 [advanced by the PrCs]). It was going to be using an adaptation of RKV to be for Loviatar rather than Wee-Jas.




Level
Classes
Class Features
Feats


1
Favored Soul 1

Able Learner, Evil Brand


2
Favored Soul 2




3
Favored Soul 3
Deity’s weapon focus
Martial Study


4
Favored Soul 4




5
Favored Soul 5
Energy resistance (1st type)



6
Favored Soul 6

Initiatie of Loviatar


7
Death Delver 1
Deathsense, rebuke undead



8
Death Delver 2
Deadened soul, spontaneous casting



9
Scourge Maiden 1
Weapon Focus (scourge)
Lichloved


10
Scourge Maiden 2
Bane 3/day



11
Scourge Maiden 3
Crushing despair 3/day



12
Scourge Maiden 4
Stunning strike
Martial Stance


13
Scourge Maiden 5
Painful strike



14
Scourge Maiden 6
Agonizing strike



15
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1

Power Attack


16
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
Divine Recovery



17
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3




18
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4

Tomb Tainted Soul


19
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
Armored stealth



20
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6

[ciopo]

Just... No. The only times Orcus and Demogorgon are even mentioned in the book is during the campaign descriptions, where Orcus is manipulated by Atropus, the strongest of the Elder Evils and very undead-oriented, to invade the realm of Demogorgon, and another time where Demogorgon is described as being pretty okay with Leviathan destroying the world.
Fair, I know them not, my tax evasion justly didn't go unpunished :D, maybe I got confused with something written somewhere else, I'm positive I googled something like "is Orcus an elder evil" and I found some answer to the effect of "yes", could have been something in BoVD that mislead me. Out of curiosity would any of the elder evils be acceptable to you? if yes which one? and what if we took just two feats at 5th level (brand and lichloved, to satisfy the round requirements) and then fluffed "we betrayed them for Loviatar! Bringing about the end of the world does not spark joy!" Acceptable storywise, not for the sake of the round

Oh! I think I might add +0.5 in power just for that. Not more, since it is still unoptimal to only use one one-handed weapon to attack, and since, by Ambidexterity unupdated rules, you have -4 to hit with one of those. And, yeah, of scourge course the scourge is a whip, but not for the rules, like a spiked chain is definitely a chain, but won't have the same feats apply.iirc the update booklet folded ambidexterity into improved two weapon fightning, so there is rule support for that feat not existing anymore, that said I'm not comfortable with getting points for things I didn't write in the build itself, I find it against the spirit of things

We have that effects that negate or halt poison affect drugs so that may be fair game, if we say that "not risking to poison yourself" can be understood as "negating the poisoning". Also, luhix is a DC 25 SoD if you take at least 2 doses, but drugs are pretty clearly not meant to be used in combat. For example, luhix is supposedly applied in a "bleeding, self-inflicted wound" that is then magically closed. I would rule that you can't put enough powder on your blade to have a significant effect when wounding someone during a fight, or at least that you need more than 2 applications to get the SoD. (also, DC 30 Alchemy is a harsh requirement)Agree, but also consider two points : 1 Luhix is one of the few with the application method that can "happen" in combat, as opposed to inhaled and the likes; 2 Scourge as a weapon is specifically designed for delivery, I can see an argument being made I can put *9* doses on it

Besides the more general notion that one minor psionic creation is "a quantity so big you might as well just dunk the whole weapon in the container"

Yeah, DC 30 alchemy is harsh, but then again, divine insight, I'm fairly sure we no-fail that by the time I get poison use, but probably a bit earlier than that, maybe level 16 or so?
I'm more surprised that DLoPaS was the wacky one, it was very much more expected, and used more well-known and less questionable techniques than Daralei, who was more interesting but less "in-depth" optimized with the scourge and the whip combination.
I mean I don't know what could be more straightforward than 15 levels of "Loviatar gal", I was joking only a little bit when I said I took 15 levels of the SI, if that was a favored soul entry without elder evils I would rate it a 4 or thereabouts on elegance, because it's simple but clean, and pairing maiden of pain with scourge maiden is much of a "d'uh!" to me, even if it cost power as it obviously did.

About the initiate feats, I think there's only one way, not counting DrMag. Mystic and Ur-Priest specifically don't worship, that's their whole thing. Occular Adept can theoretically work, though. You change your patron deity to the Great Mother, you gain 6 levels in Ocular Adept, then you change your patron deity again to Loviatar, the Great Mother disintegrates you for disobedience. You get resurrected, lose a level and all special abilities of Ocular Adept, but you still have 5 levels in a class that uses cleric spell list for spellcasting and requires to choose a deity. So you can do that. Eh, I said there was a way, not that there was a good way!

If dragon magazine is on the table, there is the Knight of the Chase, a terrible PrC that requires you to worship a Chaotic Good deity. You will need some harsh reconversion, or a helm of opposite alignment, but at least you won't get disintegrated by an implanted eye. One other way i did consider was being sketchy about "bonus feats don't need to meet prerequisites" and just.. gloss over that is not how bonus feats work, and take it at 1st or 4th level of Thrall of Orcus, making the eyerolling argument that unlike other class features that usually repeat that you must meet prerequisites, thrall of orcus does not say that you have to meet prerequisites.

Yeah, cringe, and shady, I know, good thing I dropped Orcus, eh? :)


So, I currently have three ideas for next round:


Something mount related.
Something undead related.
Something theurge-but-not related (as suggested by ciopo).

I'm leaning towards mount related, since this round was caster related.


Oooh, I would dig mount related but forbidden ingredient "taking 'mounted combat' as regular or fighter bonus feat", make us sweat for it if we want spirited charge


Also, was there any more judging to come? I know there were some expressions of interest, but since the competitor has revealed themselves after first judging, I'll wait and see if there is any more to come.

Oh damn, I should have been more careful, I forgot GreatWyrmGold mentioned he might judge, I'm sorry.

[Thurbane]

Oh damn, I should have been more careful, I forgot GreatWyrmGold mentioned he might judge, I'm sorry.

No biggie - if there had been multiple competitors it might be an issue, but no real harm done here. :smallsmile:

[GreatWyrmGold]

...and that's it. Two is definitely better than one.
And from a judge's perspective, it's better than sixteen. And since they're from the same person, nobody's likely to care if I judge them less precisely than I should. Considering the other contest I recently committed to judging, I consider that to be a good thing.



Oh damn, I should have been more careful, I forgot GreatWyrmGold mentioned he might judge, I'm sorry.
Almost like I disappeared from the forums for a week or two. Weird! Anyways.


Scoring: Since this is a two-part contest, I'll directly compare the two builds and assign points based on how they compare. The total will sum up to six; if they're about equal both get a 3, if one dominates the other one gets a 5 and the other a 1, etc. This rule will be bent if both are exceptionally good/bad about something, or if something else mildly exceptional comes up.


Originality: I have no real basis for comparing these to, mechanically speaking. Scourge Maiden is just not a class familiar to me. But I'll do my best!
I was going to start by comparing the ways the two entries got around the cleric level requirement, but they used the same one and it's boring. So that's a -1 collective score I guess. Daralei's choice of Archivist feels more unexpected for a melee-focused cleric PrC than the Dark Lady's Favored Soul (with Tyranny Paladin and Blackguard levels), and only Daralei points out the relevant ruling, so that's an edge to her...edge which is squandered by picking a second whip-based Loviatar prestige class. (Daralei sprinkles in some incarnum and the Dark Lady some psionics, but those are about equally unexpected.)
Daralei is a drug-addled shadow-apocalypse survivor who splits her allegiance between Demogorgon and Loviatar to stay alive and sane in this bleakly savage world, without staying true to the spirit of either dark lord's commands, who inflicts drugs on other people with her bladed whip. The Dark Lady fled from a dark dragon cult only to get tangled up in a dark Loviatar cult, and coats her scourge with poison created by her mind. These both feel like supervillains invented by someone trying to be both Frank Miller and Joel Schumacher without understanding what makes either occasionally good, but I should have expected that from the prestige class. Anyways, I give the final edge to Daralei, mostly because of the more involved backstory.

Daralei 3, Dark Lady 2

Power: I'm bad at judging this, but it seems like Daralei has the edge here, even if she isn't one level from 9th-level spells. That might just be because her entry actually explains what she does, whereas the Dark Lady's expects you to already know what a typical divine gish does. Still, Daralei's power seems more unique if nothing else, so she gets the edge again. Though perhaps not that much of one, because I'm uncertain.

Daralei 3.5, Dark Lady 2.5

Elegance: No contest. Daralei has, depending on your count, either two or three classes, each with at least five levels, all as tightly centered around a single theme as possible, and minimal reliance on anything outside her class levels except maybe to get her liquid-pain fix. The Dark Lady has eight, none with more than five levels, and seems to rely on a weapon that doesn't exist in the books. But really, being composed entirely of dips is what kills the Dark Lady.

Daralei 5, Dark Lady 1

Use of Components: Again, no contest. Daralei not only has a build centered around the whip and a second prestige class which basically covers the same role as the first Necessary Component, but actually makes the second NC part of the character's story! The Dark Lady...doesn't, really. Heck, she only takes half of the prestige class, which puts her Component Use at roughly 20% of Daralei's.

Daralei 5, Dark Lady 1, because that's as lopsided as I can make this.

Final score: Daralei 16.5, Dark Lady 6.5. Possibly the difference between the two was exaggerated by my decision to judge them head-to-head rather than individually, but I do think Daralei was by far the more interesting of the two characters.

[ciopo]

Welcome back, I do care a little :), but I understand the sentiment, thanks for judging!

I don't know if I like the head-to-head, but it's immaterial anyway.

I'm not sure if "weapon that doesn't exists in the books" is a comment in me failing to point out scourge is in complete warrior, or is it about the joke about a relic/legacy scourge?

I wonder what Thurbane pulls out of his hat next!

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the judgement GWG: I'll pop up a table in a bit, and try to post the new comp later today (there weren't any more judges to come, were there?).



Entry
Description
Judge 1
Judge 2
Total
Competitor


Daralei (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25091517&postcount=30)
LE lesser Zenythri Archivist 5 / Maiden of Pain 9 / Scourge Maiden 6
9
16.5
25.5
ciopo


Dark Lady of Pain and Sorrow (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25091520&postcount=31)
LE Lesser Aasimar Favored Soul 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Dragon Devotee 2 / Scourge Maiden 3 / Pious Templar 1 / Exotic weapon master 1 / Warrior of Darkness 4 / Blackguard 2
11
6.5
17.5
ciopo



I'm hoping for more entries/competitors in the next one, but maybe the forums just can't sustain enough interest in the number of comps we have going. :smallfrown:

[ciopo]

Personally I'm just waiting to see what the next ingredients are to start tinkering :)

[loky1109]

Is this legitimate to enter Scourge Maiden with Drider, for example?

[Thurbane]

Is this legitimate to enter Scourge Maiden with Drider, for example?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if only Humans can be Scourge Maidens? Some deities do have racial restrictions, but unless I'm missing any hard and fast rule, there are always exceptions. I also believe these restrictions might only apply specifically to Clerics.

Or are you asking if racial spell casting meets the casting reqs?


Personally I'm just waiting to see what the next ingredients are to start tinkering :)

Hope to have it up in the next 24-48 hours.

[Thurbane]

New round is up - Junkyard Wars XXX: Giddy-Up! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633325)

[pabelfly]

I'm hoping for more entries/competitors in the next one, but maybe the forums just can't sustain enough interest in the number of comps we have going. :smallfrown:

I was interested in the competition but couldn't find a character concept that I thought was interesting enough to build off of.

One thing I did find during my research was that there are a few feats that give you extra stunning attacks, such as "Extra Stunning" feat, instead of specifically extra uses of the "Stunning Fist" feat. Presumably you can get a few extra uses of the Scourge Maiden's stunning abilities. I couldn't find enough to do with stunning attacks to make such a build worth pursuing though.

[loky1109]

Or are you asking if racial spell casting meets the casting reqs?
...
This one.

[Thurbane]

...
This one.

Yes, racial spellcasting meets casting reqs the same as levels in a class would.

Also, I'm ruling that PrCs can advance racial casting levels directly, without needing a di[p in the base class.

Would racial Cleric casting get past the Cleric restriction for the round? I would rule yes: do bear in mind that most creatures with racial casting generally have large Level Adjustments, though.