Scorpions Grasp and other scorpion related questions (scorpions claws)

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

The feat Scorpions Grasp - I've found a bunch of stuff explaining clearly how it works with things like reach weapons and so on - how would it interact with Bloodstorm Blades signature ability? My basic reading is that it would work with any melee weapon that still meets the feat's requirements? But Bloodstorm Blade has caught me out before with intricacies of how it works with things like sneak attack and death attack before so I thought I'd better check.

Second question was Scorpion's Claw exotic weapon - it reads unclearly to me on a number of things:
1. Does it HAVE to be wielded in a pair to get the benefits?
2. Can a character use the hand the thing is strapped to? And still get the bonus?
3. If a character uses it with Scorpions Grasp, it says you have to drop the one-handed weapon... but its strapped to your arm? How does that work?

[Troacctid]

Bloodstorm blade makes it work more like the grasp of a different kind of Scorpion—specifically, the "Get over here!" variety.

[justiceforall]

Bloodstorm blade makes it work more like the grasp of a different kind of Scorpion—specifically, the "Get over here!" variety.

Except I go to them right?

Does it actually work that way? Could I throw say a javelin (for the 30ft range increment and visual if nothing else) with bloodstorm blade and grapple someone 150ft away?

[Doctor Despair]

Hi playground,

The feat Scorpions Grasp - I've found a bunch of stuff explaining clearly how it works with things like reach weapons and so on - how would it interact with Bloodstorm Blades signature ability? My basic reading is that it would work with any melee weapon that still meets the feat's requirements? But Bloodstorm Blade has caught me out before with intricacies of how it works with things like sneak attack and death attack before so I thought I'd better check.

If your attack with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action; no initial touch attack is required. If you succeed in starting the grapple, you must drop your onehanded weapon, but if you started the grapple with a light weapon, you can use it in each round to make an attack against the creature you are grappling without taking the normal -4 penalty on the attack roll. If you initiated the grapple while armed, however, you cannot make additional grapple checks to deal damage during the round in which you use this feat. You have the option to conduct the grapple normally, or you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand. If you choose to do the latter, you take a -20 penalty on grapple checks against that creature and you cannot deal damage with your grapple checks, but you are not considered grappled yourself. You don't lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you still threaten an area, and you can use remaining attacks against other opponents. While maintaining this latter type of hold, you can move normally (possibly carrying your opponent away), provided you can drag the opponent's weight.

An unarmed strike or an attack with a light or one-handed melee weapon (melee or ranged) starts the grapple. So then what qualified as a melee weapon?


Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

So a weapon is a ranged weapon if it is being thrown generally, and some melee weapons can be thrown. This means that melee weapons with the option to be thrown are in an odd position where they can count as melee or ranged at your option, depending on the type of attack you're making.

With regard to the wording of Scorpion's Grasp, this means that a thrown weapon will generally be a ranged weapon and therefore ineligible to qualify for the feat. With a very specific reading, a thrown unarmed strike may be excluded from that, as it says "an unarmed strike or your attack with a light or one-handed melee weapon..."

Javelins are a one-handed thrown weapon. Although some melee weapons may be thrown to count as ranged weapons, it does not necessarily follow that all thrown weapons may be used in melee to count as melee weapons. Some text on the javelin SRD reads:


Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a –4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon.

It says it is not designed for melee, but also says it can be used as a melee weapon. This could mean that it is still a ranged weapon, or that is becomes a melee weapon for the purposes of the attack, or that it can always be considered a melee weapon (and therefore be eligible for melee-only enhancements). Personally, I'd rule that it counts as a melee weapon for the purposes of the attack but not further enhancement, whereas a melee weapon with the throwing enhancement would count as a melee and ranged weapon as it actually gains a range increment.

Based on that reading, you would not need Thunderous Throw if the javelin were used in melee -- but that's not the goal here.

Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).

Thunderous Throw lets you treat your ranged attack rolls as melee attacks. This explicitly works with a javelin, which would then be a one-handed melee attack. However, when Thunderous Throw takes effect is important here, as javelins impose a -4 penalty when used as a melee weapon. Do you avoid the penalty because it was a ranged attack roll? Or would it be imposed because, even though you're making a ranged attack roll, you are using the javelin as a melee weapon? I think the RAW would be that you'd suffer the penalty, unfortunately, but it would otherwise work as intended.


Bloodstorm blade makes it work more like the grasp of a different kind of Scorpion—specifically, the "Get over here!" variety.

For that, the player would need Improved Grab.


When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.


Except I go to them right?

Yes. In step 4 of grappling, you move into the opponent's square, and the movement is free and doesn't count against your movement for the turn.

[justiceforall]

Thanks for the detailed response. Looks like it works.

Anyone able to answer the second question about the Scorpions Claws?