Improved Grab Questions

[Doctor Despair]

Good afternoon! I had a few quick questions regarding Improved Grab. Some I suspect I already know the answer to, but I still want to confirm:

Improved Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Suppose you were a huge creature dual-wielding two kusarigama (light reach weapons). You hit with the first on an opponent; after winning the grapple check, you pull them into your square, and choose to take the -20 on grapple checks to keep them grappled with just "the part of its body it used in the improved grab..."


Does this mean your kusarigama is occupied with the grapple, or just that hand? Could you still attack with it, or would you need to use the other kusarigama?

Does the -20 apply to all grapple checks, or just grapple checks made with regard to the initial grappled target?

Is there a way to release a target that is being held with the -20 from Improved Grab from a grapple without pinning them, thereby removing the -20?



Thank you for any info you can provide!

[Zanos]

Improved Grab is usually linked to specific natural attacks, such as a Brown Bear (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) only triggering it when attacking with claws, not a bite or any other weapons you train a bear to wield.

How are you getting a version of Improved Grab that functions with manufactured weapons?

[Doctor Despair]

Improved Grab is usually linked to specific natural attacks, such as a Brown Bear (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) only triggering it when attacking with claws, not a bite or any other weapons you train a bear to wield.

How are you getting a version of Improved Grab that functions with manufactured weapons?

Spiritual Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) grants Improved Grab (Monster Manual 313).

The Monster Manual entry reads:

"If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required...:

While it is usually a claw or bite attack, it is not exclusively a claw or bite attack, but does need to be an attack with a melee weapon. As neither the ACF nor the ability entry specify further, it should allow an Improved Grab with a manufactured weapon.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Each of these effects is a supernatural ability.
Bear Totem: The mighty bear is known for her crushing
embrace. If you adopt her as your spiritual totem, you gain
the improved grab ability (MM 310).

Being a supernatural ability I'd think it can somehow work with any manufactured weapon, but the rules for using light weapons in a grapple will apply.

Since Improved Grab typically only occurs on a natural weapon attack, "the part of its body it used in the improved grab" would mean both the weapon used as well as the hand wielding it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Suppose you were a huge creature dual-wielding two kusarigama (light reach weapons). You hit with the first on an opponent; after winning the grapple check, you pull them into your square, and choose to take the -20 on grapple checks to keep them grappled with just "the part of its body it used in the improved grab..."


Does this mean your kusarigama is occupied with the grapple, or just that hand? Could you still attack with it, or would you need to use the other kusarigama?

Does the -20 apply to all grapple checks, or just grapple checks made with regard to the initial grappled target?

Is there a way to release a target that is being held with the -20 from Improved Grab from a grapple without pinning them, thereby removing the -20?



Technically, the kusarigama is still free. In practice, it was being wielded by the hand that is now occupied, but you might be able to pull something funky like dropping it and then catching it with a 3rd hand (if you have more than 2) or having a compatriot pick it up (I say might because while dropping it is a free action, the grapple is initiated immediately after confirmation, so there might not be a period in between "not yet grappling" and "hand is busy, can't drop right now").

I've always assumed that the -20 was only to that grapple, but on a closer reading it definitely applies to all grapple checks. Which I suppose makes sense; holding a squirming enemy is going to make grabbing another one much more awkward. Note that this can be mitigated with the (Improved) Multigrab feats (halving and then eliminating the penalty).
EDIT: Interestingly, the Scorpion's Grasp feat does specify "grapple checks against that creature". You could take that as a precedent or as a difference between the feat and Improved Grab (I think the latter is RAW).

I think it is a free action to stop grappling someone; the reason you need to pin them first normally is because then you can also force them to stop grappling you. With one-limbed grappling, there is no need for such an additional measure, since they're not also grappling you, so you should be able to just let go.

[Doctor Despair]

I think it is a free action to stop grappling someone; the reason you need to pin them first normally is because then you can also force them to stop grappling you. With one-limbed grappling, there is no need for such an additional measure, since they're not also grappling you, so you should be able to just let go.

I'm not finding a source on it being a free action to stop grappling (unless you count releasing them from a pin), but I think I have a workaround.

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Improved grab lets you skip step 2 and go straight to step 3. Assuming you successfully pass your grapple check, they are grappled and get pulled into your square. However, Improved Grab does not discuss changing the grapple rules; you still must pass through step 4.

Step 4 requires you to move into the target's space to maintain the grapple. You're already in the same space, so under normal circumstances, you'd presumable move 0 feet for free as a free action. However, if you choose not to "move" that 0 feet into their square, the grapple would immediately end. That should work, right?

[PraxisVetli]

I was under the impression you move into their space, not they to yours.
I had a thread about that exact thing on here ages ago...
Found it: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?554441-Scorpion-s-Grasp

[Doctor Despair]

I was under the impression you move into their space, not they to yours.
I had a thread about that exact thing on here ages ago...
Found it: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?554441-Scorpion-s-Grasp

A normal grapple involves you moving into their space, yes.

Scorpion's Grasp doesn't change this rule.

Improved Grab specifically says it drags them into your space.

[PraxisVetli]

A normal grapple involves you moving into their space, yes.

Scorpion's Grasp doesn't change this rule.

Improved Grab specifically says it drags them into your space.

Never noticed that bit, that's a nice detail. Thanks!