What do you think of the undead warlock and the spirit bard?

[Rfkannen]

The new dnd book brought us 2 very interesting subclasses! what do you think of them? Do they look fun? How would you build them? What party role do you think they would best fill? Any other thoughts?

[follacchioso]

I don't like the bard, to be honest. It is a personal preference as I don't like random tables, and the class is based around that. The 6th level ability can be useful, but there are some limitations. And I don't like going into battle with a tarokka in my hand as spell focus.

The warlock is more interesting, maybe combined with some of the dark gifts.

[Emongnome777]

I don't like the bard, to be honest. It is a personal preference as I don't like random tables, and the class is based around that.

Same.

Other than that, I think the subclass abilities can make you "feel" like you're what the subclass names imply. That isn't the case for all subclasses (I'm looking at you, Purple Dragon Knight).

[solidork]

I think Spirit Bard is really cool and I'd love to play one. I like both the flavor and the mechanics.

[Kane0]

I remember putting down my thoughts when the UA came out, anyone got a link to that discussion thread?

[Rukelnikov]

I really like the flavor of the Spirits Bard, and I like random tables, but the effects themselves seem incredibly weak or niche. I think it would be decent if you could choose the effect, but even then it would be more of a trade power for versatility scenario. Analyzing the effects individually of the randomness, the bardic inspiration die expenditure and the bonus action required to set it up:


Clever Animal - *** - 10 minute long Bardic Inspiration for skills sounds good, its only for the mental ones which limits its use a lot, but its still good, Perception is a Wis check after all.
Reddemed Duelist - * - Spend your action for a melee attack that deals 2 Bardic Inspiration die + Cha damage? Even if you can do a 30 ft range melee spell attack, this is cantrip territory.
Beloved Friend - * - BI die + Cha temporary hit points for 2 creatures, this is what, around a 2nd level spell effect? The plethora of Temp HP sources nowadays doesn't do this any favours. Again past tier 1, this is comparable in effect to a cantrip.
Runaway - *** - Cha + 1 Targets can spend their reaction to teleport up to 30 ft (with caveats). This is pretty solid, allows positioning of your entire party in combat.
Avenger- **(*) - Target return BI damage to melee attackers for 1 minute. Its not much damage, but its concentration free, in the right party can be good.
Traveler- ** - Target gains BI + lvl temp HP and +10 ft movement and +1 AC while said HP last. You can't expect it to last much on a character that expects to get attacked a lot, which are the ones that benefit from the AC bump the most. You can expect it to last on characters whose AC is not that relevant.
Beguiler- ** - 2 * BI damage and Wis or be incapacitated 1 round. Its a worse version of an Enchanters Hypnotic Gaze, since you can't maintin its effect for more than 1 turn, the extra damage doesn't matter.
Phantom- **(*) - Make someone invisible for a turn or until they attack, if the attack hits extra BI damage and save to avoid being frightened 1 turn. Its better than plain ol Invisibility in some scenarios and worse in more. Remember you are spending your action to achieve the effect.
Brute- *** - 30 ft radius selective 3 * BI damage + prone, Str save for half and ignore condition. It has a pretty good area, Str saves are usually good for monsters, but in such an area some should stick.
Dragon- *** - 30 ft cone 4 * BI fire damage save for half. Comparable to upcasted 2nd level nukes, far worse than 3rd level nukes. Useful until level 8 or 9.
Angel- *(**) - Heal 2 * BI + Cha, end a lesser restoration condition or petrify. Its like a lesser restoration that heals a bit extra hit points, useful for the condition removal.
Mind Bender - **** - Intelligence save or be stunned for 1 round and take 3 * BI damage. As usual the damage is pretty minor, but the Intelligence save is very good for a good effect.


So in most cases, even ignoring all the requirements to be able to produce the effects, they are far from great, Mind Bender being an exception. The setup and resource expenditure required is what turns it from a decent feature to a pretty bad one.

The 6th level feature is good, a floating spell of Prof level you can change on long rest enables poaching some long duration spells like Find Familiar/Greater Steed, and in general allows you to pick the best spell for the moment. Its like a weaker Limited Wish, less versatile, but can be used more often. IMO the best feature of the subclass.

Mystical connection makes the 3rd level feature marginally more reliable, but still far from the point where I would consider it decent.

[solidork]

You guys are expecting way too much from the Spirit Tales. They cost a Bardic Inspiration dice - you've got like 5 of those per short rest.

Only moderately better than a cantrip is about where they should be.

[Rukelnikov]

You guys are expecting way too much from the Spirit Tales. They cost a Bardic Inspiration dice - you've got like 5 of those per short rest.

Only moderately better than a cantrip is about where they should be.

They cost a Bonus action to setup, and then an action to execute, you are basically spending your whole turn.

[solidork]

They cost a Bonus action to setup, and then an action to execute, you are basically spending your whole turn.

The way I see using these is like this:

- Immediately after a short rest, prepare one of the Tales.
- If you get a temp HP one, you can use it immediately and prepare another Tale or save it for an opportune moment.
- Wait for the right moment to use the effect you rolled. You can also plan with your party around the effect. Don't save all your inspiration for Tales, use them normally as needed.

[Kane0]

Aha, found it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616962-UA-subclasses-part-4).

Edit: To summarize what I thought back then:

Spirit Bard looks good, though it gets a lot of features and some of the Tales from Beyond don’t have saves attached.
Tale of the runaway can let someone use their reaction to let you use your reaction to teleport, which i find funny but breaks the never-stated-in-words rule of not using your reaction on your turn.

The Undead Warlock is a much better Undying. Probably a little too good with its liberal application of damage, control and survivability not tied to any existing resources. Then again it is competing with Hexblade and the others i suppose.
Form of Dread I think could be handled better, especially since it forms the vast majority of this subclass. Prof bonus charges means dippable scaling and long rest cooldown on the short rest caster feels a little odd.
With regards to body explosion, I still dont like the 1d4 rests cooldown concept because it can vary so much between tables.
Spirit projection is a second long rest state changing feature, I dont feel like there should be two in the one subclass especially since they are pretty much separate.
I also note zero ability to create/control undead. Maybe the feedback from the alternate features UA was strong enough that they didnt feel comfortable trying again, but at least a little minioancy could have been done here.

For an alternative Undead lock concept:
Bonus Spells: No changes unless swapping a 3rd for Animate Dead is being considered
Level 3 (Acolyte of Death): You gain advantage on saving throws against fear
Level 3 (Form of Dread): When you cast a spell using a Pact Magic slot any allies targeted by the spell gain Temporary HP equal to your Warlock level, and any enemies targeted by the spell must make a Wisdom saving throw against your Spell DC or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Level 6 (Grave Touched): You do not need to Eat, Breathe or sleep. Additionally, when you cast a spell that deals damage you can replace the damage type with Necrotic damage. If the spell already dealt Necrotic damage you can roll one additional damage die when determining the damage the target takes. Edit: maybe two extra dice if this isn't good enough.
Level 10 (Mortal Husk): As a action you can separate your body from your spirit. Body becomes inert, you can fly through walls, etc, etc
Level 14 (Mortal Coil): While you are separated from your body you can use it to fuel a necrotic explosion as a bonus action. Body is destroyed, everyone takes damage save half, takes a minute to form a new body, etc, etc

Edit: For the level 10 or 14 feature maybe also have a built-in body swap or possession function ala magic jar.

[Dork_Forge]

They cost a Bonus action to setup, and then an action to execute, you are basically spending your whole turn.

Solidork puts it pretty well, there's no reason to not set up a tale after you finish a rest (and then use it if it gives temp hp and set up another one), just like a Glamour Bard.

As for the damage, two inspiration dice +Cha mod isn't cantrip territory until Tier 3, and even then it isn't Bard cantrip territory.

[Unoriginal]

Worth noting, there is nothing that says you have to use the Dragon tale on an ally.

It's a pretty fantastic enemy disorganizer. Or assassination tool.

[ATHATH]

The 6th level feature is good, a floating spell of Prof level you can change on long rest enables poaching some long duration spells like Find Familiar/Greater Steed, and in general allows you to pick the best spell for the moment. Its like a weaker Limited Wish, less versatile, but can be used more often. IMO the best feature of the subclass.
Did the wording change from the UA version, or can the 6th level feature still only pull Divination and Necromancy spells?

[RogueJK]

Did the wording change from the UA version, or can the 6th level feature still only pull Divination and Necromancy spells?

"The spell you choose must be of a level equal to the number of creatures that conducted the ritual or less, the spell must be of a level you can cast, and it must be in the school of divination or necromancy."

So it's limited in its scope, but could be handy for snagging the occasional Divination spell as needed for scouting/info gathering. Or for grabbing something like Animate Dead or Create Undead, for times when you want some added allies for an upcoming big fight.

Or could even be a clutch move if a party member dies and you don't have access to a Cleric, if you can wrangle together enough people to conduct a Spirit Session to grab Raise Dead.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't like the bard, to be honest. It is a personal preference as I don't like random tables, and the class is based around that. The 6th level ability can be useful, but there are some limitations. And I don't like going into battle with a tarokka in my hand as spell focus.
Too fiddly, even though I like the thematics. (And yeah, a deck of tarokka cards as a focus just rubs me the wrong way - Twisted Fate from LoL?)

The warlock is more interesting, maybe combined with some of the dark gifts. I like the thematics, but I am still mulling over the mechanics.

[RogueJK]

I think the Undead Warlock is an upgrade, both thematically as well as mechanically, to the Undying Warlock. And it makes a handy (and appropriate) 1 level dip for something like a Conquest or Oathbreaker Paladin.

The Spirits Bard feels like a better fit for a NPC. Too clunky to be a good PC class. Also suffers from the same issue as the Wild Magic Barbarian, in that random effects are tough to plan tactics around, yet your core subclass ability is based around a roll on a random table. At least with the Bard, you generate an effect ahead of time, and know before you trigger it what the effect is going to be. So it could be used a bit more strategically at times.

[ZRN]

The new dnd book brought us 2 very interesting subclasses! what do you think of them? Do they look fun? How would you build them? What party role do you think they would best fill? Any other thoughts?

The undead warlock would be great for blade-pact warlocks if the hexblade didn't already lock that down so hard. However, I could see this still being great for a multiclass blade-pact warlock who doesn't WANT to max their charisma.

For example, a barbarian/warlock with a greataxe seems like a good possibility, especially since by contrast the hexblade has negative synergy with the barbarian. Cavalier/warlock is a pretty cool death knight - you ride into battle on your summoned shadow steed and strike fear into your enemies. Stack cavalier's mark (or the barbarian ancestral guardian thing) with form of dread and your enemy has disadvantage against you from the fear effect, and even if they manage to get out of line of sight they still have disadvantage attacking anyone else.

Obviously conquest paladin is very synergistic as well with the fear effect too, as others have said.

[Rukelnikov]

Tale of the runaway can let someone use their reaction to let you use your reaction to teleport, which i find funny but breaks the never-stated-in-words rule of not using your reaction on your turn.

You can use your reaction on your turn, counterspelling a counterspell has been around since the PHB.


Solidork puts it pretty well, there's no reason to not set up a tale after you finish a rest (and then use it if it gives temp hp and set up another one), just like a Glamour Bard.

As for the damage, two inspiration dice +Cha mod isn't cantrip territory until Tier 3, and even then it isn't Bard cantrip territory.

It is not Bard cantrip territory, true, but it is cantrip territory in general, Firebolt deals 2d10 at lvl 5.


Did the wording change from the UA version, or can the 6th level feature still only pull Divination and Necromancy spells?


"The spell you choose must be of a level equal to the number of creatures that conducted the ritual or less, the spell must be of a level you can cast, and it must be in the school of divination or necromancy."

So it's limited in its scope, but could be handy for snagging the occasional Divination spell as needed for scouting/info gathering. Or for grabbing something like Animate Dead or Create Undead, for times when you want some added allies for an upcoming big fight.

Or could even be a clutch move if a party member dies and you don't have access to a Cleric, if you can wrangle together enough people to conduct a Spirit Session to grab Raise Dead.

You are right, I missed that part, so its not as good as I thought.

[Dork_Forge]

It is not Bard cantrip territory, true, but it is cantrip territory in general, Firebolt deals 2d10 at lvl 5.


When you actually get the ability at 3rd (assuming standard fullcaster/PB progression) it does 2d6+3 which is better and scales up from there. Even at 5th level it's beating out Firebolt in average and reliable damage, with the same max and a better damage type and then beats it overall when Cha hits 5 until 11th. For something potentially as abuntant as 5 times per short rest, how much would you want it to increase by without it being overtuned?

[quindraco]

The new dnd book brought us 2 very interesting subclasses! what do you think of them? Do they look fun? How would you build them? What party role do you think they would best fill? Any other thoughts?

I haven't read the new rules for the non-UA version, but on a fundamental level, if you roll on a table to determine effect and the table gets larger as you level up, you get weaker as you level up, because you have less and less probability of predicting the outcome and playing accordingly. I have no use for any class or subclass that gets worse as it levels, like Berserkers do.

[Dork_Forge]

I haven't read the new rules for the non-UA version, but on a fundamental level, if you roll on a table to determine effect and the table gets larger as you level up, you get weaker as you level up, because you have less and less probability of predicting the outcome and playing accordingly. I have no use for any class or subclass that gets worse as it levels, like Berserkers do.

You don't really get weaker though, the further up the table you go the more potent the effects generally become and you're only really hindered by the randomness if you're waiting for your turn to prepare it and commit most if not all of your BI dice to it.

[Rukelnikov]

When you actually get the ability at 3rd (assuming standard fullcaster/PB progression) it does 2d6+3 which is better and scales up from there. Even at 5th level it's beating out Firebolt in average and reliable damage, with the same max and a better damage type and then beats it overall when Cha hits 5 until 11th. For something potentially as abuntant as 5 times per short rest, how much would you want it to increase by without it being overtuned?

5th level 11 vs 12 or 13, so you are spending a Bardic Inspiration die and a bonus action to deal 1 or 2 extra damge over Firebolt, I don't understand how this doesn't seem like a crappy ability to you.


I haven't read the new rules for the non-UA version, but on a fundamental level, if you roll on a table to determine effect and the table gets larger as you level up, you get weaker as you level up, because you have less and less probability of predicting the outcome and playing accordingly. I have no use for any class or subclass that gets worse as it levels, like Berserkers do.

I think an argument can be made if the unreliable abilities were very potent in nature. If "kill every target of your choosing within 100 feet no save" is too powerful, and current abilities are too weak, there has to be a somewhat balanced middle ground.

[Dork_Forge]

5th level 11 vs 12 or 13, so you are spending a Bardic Inspiration die and a bonus action to deal 1 or 2 extra damge over Firebolt, I don't understand how this doesn't seem like a crappy ability to you.

The bonus action doesn't have to be taken the same turn or even in combat at all.

I guess to explain my position on it better:

-It's a better damage type (Force vs Fire)

-Whilst being melee can be a downside, it also means you won't be forced into disadvantage if you end up there

-I like flat numbers over dice, they're consistent and raise the floor. Whilst the average at level 5 for Firebolt might be 11, the floor is 2. Assuming +4 Cha for this ability the floor is 6 and you're not going to get such swingy results.

-You're saying cantrip territory and pointed at a d10 cantrip, of which there's only two in the game and neither are on the Bard list. The only Bard damage cantrip is a d4, there's no contest here.

[RogueJK]

Don't forget the added opportunity cost of not being able to use that Bardic Inspiration dice for actual Bardic Inspiration purposes.

[Dork_Forge]

Don't forget the added opportunity cost of not being able to use that Bardic Inspiration dice for actual Bardic Inspiration purposes.

Every single Bard subclass gives you alternatives, there's always opportunity cost involved. This might be a problem in tier 1, but once you get font of inspiration BI is pretty abundant.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've got a player building the spirit bard for CoS. He's playing a Vistani seer close to Whoopie Goldberg's character in Ghost, where he was a conman playing on his family's legacy until he enters Barovia and suddenly it all turns out to be real and he gains powers he never knew he had. It's part of our plan to better incorporate Vistani into the story.

It's random, but that really does suit someone that uses cards as their medium (I know they can use others, but I like Vistani). We're discussing using it in place of random rolls for things like Tales from Beyond, and I've curated a list of thematic random encounters so that he can do a reading to predict what the party might see on the road (as well as a daily weal and woe reading, which function like divination dice mixed with inspiration; one the bard gets to call, one I do instead). I figure, it's cards. You should be all in.

The warlock looks great, but our usual warlock player wants to try something new this time. Ah well.

[RogueJK]

Every single Bard subclass gives you alternatives, there's always opportunity cost involved.

If we were comparing Bard subclass abilities to Bard subclass abilities, I'd agree.

But the discussion is currently comparing a Bard subclass ability to a cantrip. Casting a cantrip doesn't limit your ability to use Bardic Inspiration later. (Or cast a different cantrip later.)

So compared to a cantrip, the Spirit Bard ability has an added opportunity cost of limiting other BI use later.

[Rukelnikov]

The bonus action doesn't have to be taken the same turn or even in combat at all.

That's only once per combat, if you roll for a tale in combat and get Duelist, you are spending BA, action and BI die to deal cantrip damage. That's mind bogglingly bad IMO, so much so that if I'm not a melee bard, I'd likely just spend my action doing something else. If it can be used from 30 ft away, I may use it or not depending the situation.


I guess to explain my position on it better:

-It's a better damage type (Force vs Fire)

Yes.


-Whilst being melee can be a downside, it also means you won't be forced into disadvantage if you end up there

Well, yeah, but if you don't normally wanna be in melee range, you likely also don't wanna spend your action dealing cantrip damage and staying within melee of your foe.


-I like flat numbers over dice, they're consistent and raise the floor. Whilst the average at level 5 for Firebolt might be 11, the floor is 2. Assuming +4 Cha for this ability the floor is 6 and you're not going to get such swingy results.

I agree, against low hp enemies in particular thats very good, against higher HP enemies I don't think its as important though.


-You're saying cantrip territory and pointed at a d10 cantrip, of which there's only two in the game and neither are on the Bard list. The only Bard damage cantrip is a d4, there's no contest here.

Its not just Firebolt and EB that are comparable or flat out better, BB and GFB, which are melee, are also better, Toll the Dead is comparable or better too.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Thoughts for my spirit bard player, for those that feel the subclass is on the weaker end- would changing the activation on Tales to a bonus action fix things, as well as allowing the same activation that got you a tale to let you immediately use it if you wish?

It's a straight power upgrade, no doubt, but I'd rather they have features that feel good to use.

[Rukelnikov]

Thoughts for my spirit bard player, for those that feel the subclass is on the weaker end- would changing the activation on Tales to a bonus action fix things, as well as allowing the same activation that got you a tale to let you immediately use it if you wish?

It's a straight power upgrade, no doubt, but I'd rather they have features that feel good to use.

Hmm... Thing is making it BA means you need 2 turn to activate a Tale during combat, since you first spend a BA to "get" the tale, and then would need a second BA to activate it. Allowing the bard to use the ability with the same BA they used to "get" the Tale, may err a bit on the strong side, but it would still be far from overpowered, most of the impact from the Bard is still coming from its spells.

I guess it also depends on how you play, if you do 6 fights a day with 2 short rests, it may be too powerful, if you do 2 fights with one or no short rests in between, I'd say the change is necessary for it to be viable at all.

[solidork]

Also, you guys are completely fixating on the absolute worst possible Tale. The teleport one is equally likely and is an effect you can't do anything like it until Scatter at 6th.

(Obviously its a lot weaker than Scatter, but it should be.)

[Dork_Forge]

If we were comparing Bard subclass abilities to Bard subclass abilities, I'd agree.

But the discussion is currently comparing a Bard subclass ability to a cantrip. Casting a cantrip doesn't limit your ability to use Bardic Inspiration later. (Or cast a different cantrip later.)

So compared to a cantrip, the Spirit Bard ability has an added opportunity cost of limiting other BI use later.

I understand the point, but comparing to a cantrip Bards don't even get seems... kind of pointless?


That's only once per combat, if you roll for a tale in combat and get Duelist, you are spending BA, action and BI die to deal cantrip damage. That's mind bogglingly bad IMO, so much so that if I'm not a melee bard, I'd likely just spend my action doing something else. If it can be used from 30 ft away, I may use it or not depending the situation.

You keep saying cantrip damage, it really depends on what level and the fact remains that the Bard has no damage based cantrips besides Vicious Mockery which is terrible for damage.

Looking at the damage in a vacuum is not useful, as a Bard option it isn't bad at all and whether or not you are in melee is not always in the players control.


Well, yeah, but if you don't normally wanna be in melee range, you likely also don't wanna spend your action dealing cantrip damage and staying within melee of your foe.

Who said you had to stay there? Or that you have a better option than spending your turn running away instead of ending the encounter faster?


I agree, against low hp enemies in particular thats very good, against higher HP enemies I don't think its as important though.

I don't think it makes much of a difference if it's low or high hp enemies, something like Firebolt (if it was available) is very swingy and besides feeling bad that can lead to that monster living longer and burning your BI for literally a few damage. Cha mod as part of it elevates the ability very well and adds another dimension of scaling.


Its not just Firebolt and EB that are comparable or flat out better, BB and GFB, which are melee, are also better, Toll the Dead is comparable or better too.

Whilst none of those are options for a Bard, it's also not that clear cut:

-EB need you to hit multiple times to actually put all damage into effect

-BB and GFB don't use the casting modifier, you need to be MAD or bad at being a Bard in general to be good with them (excluding Hexblade dips, since that shouldn't effect design) and then a bulk of their damage is tied up in conditional effects

-Toll the Dead is only up there if the target is already injured

[Rukelnikov]

I understand the point, but comparing to a cantrip Bards don't even get seems... kind of pointless?



You keep saying cantrip damage, it really depends on what level and the fact remains that the Bard has no damage based cantrips besides Vicious Mockery which is terrible for damage.

Looking at the damage in a vacuum is not useful, as a Bard option it isn't bad at all and whether or not you are in melee is not always in the players control.



Who said you had to stay there? Or that you have a better option than spending your turn running away instead of ending the encounter faster?



I don't think it makes much of a difference if it's low or high hp enemies, something like Firebolt (if it was available) is very swingy and besides feeling bad that can lead to that monster living longer and burning your BI for literally a few damage. Cha mod as part of it elevates the ability very well and adds another dimension of scaling.



Whilst none of those are options for a Bard, it's also not that clear cut:

-EB need you to hit multiple times to actually put all damage into effect

-BB and GFB don't use the casting modifier, you need to be MAD or bad at being a Bard in general to be good with them (excluding Hexblade dips, since that shouldn't effect design) and then a bulk of their damage is tied up in conditional effects

-Toll the Dead is only up there if the target is already injured

I generally disagree with most of this, but I don't really care enough to keep going in circles about it. Agree to disagree.

[Hael]

Both classes are IMO on the average end of the spectrum.

The spirit bard is ok. It’s random table is ok. The rest of the features are very uninspired, and unfortunately the table doesnÂ’t scale very well. It’s pretty good in tier1-2 for a bard, but falls off relative to most of the other subclasses after that. The fear effect without a save is good for awhile, the teleport is good, the avenger is interesting for some builds and the ac boost one is good.

The undead warlock is slightly better, but very clunky. The spell list has death ward, which is great for a lock, but then the rest is meh. The lvl 1 feature is excellent. The lvl 6 is not great but circumstantial for underwater campaigns. The lvl 10 is ok, but taking an exhaustion lvl isn’t great, and it’s not that much damage for such a one off feature. The immunity is great of course.
And then the ghost form is one of the clunkier features ever released. It’s superficially powerful, but it’s hard to see how you can use it as a warlock. It’s not like you have many great spells that don’t require concentration. What are you doing with your completely vulnerable body while you are away? In short it seems like a very good scouting tool, but one would want to use it for so much more... perhaps there’s some combo with Demi plane or wizard shenanigans (clone, magic jar) that makes this better...

All in all, i rank this about as highly as the celestial and well under Genie and Hexblade. Bit of a missed opportunity IMO, and this looks like a dip class.

[MrStabby]

I love the bard theme. Possibly more than almost any subclass. The mechanics kind of suck though.

I don't mind the tales as.much as others (though I will admit they have their problems), but their other abilities irk me.

Divination and necromancy spells are so flavourful and make sense for the class but the level cap seems wierd, arbitrary and unfair. These are the spells that are right at the heart of your domain and perfectly aligned with your theme, yet you still get them later than a wizard or cleric picking them up as a generalist.

Add to this that you miss out on the actual good spells you might find exciting... no foresight, no clone, no magic jar and it is an immensely frustrating ability.

Needing a long rest to swap round the spells is kind of fair, but it also undermines its usefulness. Someone dies and you want to bring them back within a minute with revify... swapping it in takes to long. Add to this that it becomes harder to get the requisite number of people for your ritual in one of your party dies... let's hope your DM is permissive about using familiars, animal companions, mechanical servants etc. For the ritual. I can't help but feel it a wierd design choice that the power level/utility of the class should scale with party size.

And the thing with the focus boosting healing... no spells that can actually be cast through it actually benefit. It sets up expectations and then fails to deliver on them.

[RogueJK]

And the thing with the focus boosting healing... no spells that can actually be cast through it actually benefit. It sets up expectations and then fails to deliver on them.

That's... actually a really good point. I hadn't considered that. In order to cast a spell through a spellcasting focus, the spell has to have a Material component.

The only Bard healing spell that has a Material component is Regenerate (Level 7). So that's the only healing spell that could benefit from that ability.

Even if you wanted to burn a Magical Secret to get access to another non-Bard healing spell to use along with that ability... there aren't any. The only other healing spell that has a Material component is Goodberry, and that spell doesn't involve a roll to determine how much it heals.


To make it usable, it should read something like "when you cast a bard spell that deals damage or restores hit points while holding your Spiritual Focus" instead of "through the Spiritual Focus".


Geez. What a glaring oversight.

[Dork_Forge]

The lvl 6 is not great but circumstantial for underwater campaigns.

Just to clarify the not needing to eat/drink/breath thing is a ribbon, the actual meat of level 6 is getting to add an additional damage die to to an attack once per turn when you replace the damage type with necrotic. For most Warlocks that'll probably look like downgrading one beam of EB to necrotic so you can do 2d10+Cha. It'd be a nice at-will bump for Pact of the Blade Warlocks though.

[verbatim]

I think there are two one big things that make me hesitant to use the Spirit Bard:

1. The random aspect of the Spirit Tales is always going to be a little biting when you find yourself saying "if I had X Tale we could have won/she wouldn't have died/etc". I think it would have been a lot more interesting and not broken if you could pick the starting Tale when you finish a long rest, so you could choose to hold onto it until you really need it, and then afterwards were dependent on rng to get the right draw to save the day.


2. I was going to make an argument that the damage scaling on the Tales is bad relative to cantrips before realizing that most things scale poorly relative to cantrips.



Option
Lvl 3
Lvl 5
Lvl 11
Lvl 17


Tale of the Mind-Bender (3* Bard Die + rider, # of uses/DC scales with level)
3d6 (10.5)
3d8 (13.5)
3d10 (16.5)
3d12 (19.5)


Firebolt (infinite use, roll to hit)
1d10 (5.5)
2d10 (11)
3d10 (16.5)
4d10 (22)


Flurry of Blows (# of uses and dex scales with level, roll to hit)
2d4 + 2 * dex (5 + 2 dex)
2d6 + 2 * dex (7 + 2 dex)
2d8 + 2 * dex (9 + 2 dex)
2d10 + 2 * dex (11 + 2 dex)

[Naanomi]

So 'chaos table rolling party' is Wild Barbarian, Wild Magic Sorcerer, Spirit Bard, and Alchemist?

[Rukelnikov]

I think there are two one big things that make me hesitant to use the Spirit Bard:

1. The random aspect of the Spirit Tales is always going to be a little biting when you find yourself saying "if I had X Tale we could have won/she wouldn't have died/etc". I think it would have been a lot more interesting and not broken if you could pick the starting Tale when you finish a long rest, so you could choose to hold onto it until you really need it, and then afterwards were dependent on rng to get the right draw to save the day.


2. I was going to make an argument that the damage scaling on the Tales is bad relative to cantrips before realizing that most things scale poorly relative to cantrips.



Option
Lvl 3
Lvl 5
Lvl 11
Lvl 17


Tale of the Mind-Bender (3* Bard Die + rider, # of uses/DC scales with level)
3d6 (10.5)
3d8 (13.5)
3d10 (16.5)
3d12 (19.5)


Firebolt (infinite use, roll to hit)
1d10 (5.5)
2d10 (11)
3d10 (16.5)
4d10 (22)


Flurry of Blows (# of uses and dex scales with level, roll to hit)
2d4 + 2 * dex (5 + 2 dex)
2d6 + 2 * dex (7 + 2 dex)
2d8 + 2 * dex (9 + 2 dex)
2d10 + 2 * dex (11 + 2 dex)



Consider though, that Tale of the Mind Bender can't be rolled until bard lvl 15, since you roll your Bardic Inspiration die for the table. Also Flurry of Blows is a Bonus action, the other 2 are actions.

[Unoriginal]

And the thing with the focus boosting healing... no spells that can actually be cast through it actually benefit. It sets up expectations and then fails to deliver on them.


That's... actually a really good point. I hadn't considered that. In order to cast a spell through a spellcasting focus, the spell has to have a Material component.


That depends how the DM rules it. There is no indicator that you can't cast any of your spells "through a focus" even if the spell doesn't have material component. The Staff of the Magi or the Rod of the Pact Keeper, for example, grant a +X to all spell attacks, even one that don't require material component


Also, many DMs rule that manipulating your spellcasting focus counts as the somatic component.

[Rukelnikov]

That depends how the DM rules it. There is no indicator that you can't cast any of your spells "through a focus" even if the spell doesn't have material component. The Staff of the Magi or the Rod of the Pact Keeper, for example, grant a +X to all spell attacks, even one that don't require material component


Also, many DMs rule that manipulating your spellcasting focus counts as the somatic component.

The wording on those is different, its "while you hold" and "while holding". And indeed you can use the hand that is holding the focus to do the somatic components, but RAW that's only if the spell has a material component that can be replaced by a focus. Spiritual Focus applies to very few spells with its current wording, I don't think that's intended though, and I guess most DMs will run it differently, I know I would.

[Dork_Forge]

I think the level 6 ability is because they basically copy/pasted the ALchemist ability but without thinking about how Artificers add M components. It shouldn't be a problem with most DMs but should be errata'd.

[Kane0]

You can use your reaction on your turn, counterspelling a counterspell has been around since the PHB.

Yeah it was discussed in the linked discussion thread.

[stoutstien]

Ah so only small changes. I may just wait for the next ‘everything’ book.
Hehe. They do have a pattern going with reprinting PC options.

Saying that I will probably pick it up as to give the new style of setting book(s) a fair shake.

[Mitchellnotes]

Both classes are IMO on the average end of the spectrum

I'd say the undead pact is on the upper half of the warlock subclasses. I think hex is still the strongest, but id put it up with genie pretty easily. Celestial is up there (but just has a really niche function), and in my mind, fathomless is the average subclass. It certainly beats out archfey, fiend, great old one, and undying. Its first feature alone is better than both the combination of the archfeys (fear/charm for 1 turn on a short rest) and fiends (temp hp when killing an enemy).

Id also argue that the spell list is pretty solid. Death ward as you mention, but blindness/deafness (con save, but no concentration and scales well), bane (cha save and also scales well) are also both notable inclusions. Additionally, phantom steed is a great guarenteed ritual if you are a tomelock, and speak with undead is a great way to use a slot before a rest.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah it was discussed in the linked discussion thread.

Oh, sorry, I didn't check that thread.

[quindraco]

That's... actually a really good point. I hadn't considered that. In order to cast a spell through a spellcasting focus, the spell has to have a Material component.

No, there's literally no RAW on casting a spell through a spellcasting focus. It's word salad Tasha's introduced and Van Richten's perpetuated, but in both cases, the book in question never defines casting through a focus, and it's nowhere in the PHB. Your DM will have to house rule it to make it do anything, so you're completely subject to DM fiat. Here are three sample rulings:

1) Casting through a focus means using the focus instead of a component, as you supposed.
2) Casting through a focus is just something you can choose to do with any focus you have.
2a) Can you cast through multiple foci at once? Pick an answer.
2b) Do you have to hold a focus to cast through it? Pick an answer.
3) The rule is very literal: you need a hoop-shaped focus so you can cast the spell through the hole in it.

[LudicSavant]

No, there's literally no RAW on casting a spell through a spellcasting focus. It's word salad Tasha's introduced and Van Richten's perpetuated, but in both cases, the book in question never defines casting through a focus, and it's nowhere in the PHB.

I hope WotC comments to shed some light on this word salad.

I can't imagine that they intended for the ability to only work on Regenerate and none of the other Bard healing spells. But that would only be speculation on my part.

[Luccan]

So 'chaos table rolling party' is Wild Barbarian, Wild Magic Sorcerer, Spirit Bard, and Alchemist?

Sounds like fun

Edit: I will say, I hope they don't replace Undying in SCAG. The two subclasses are fairly different and as much as Undying is underpowered and irks me personally, I'd rather they make it better at whatever they wanted it to do, rather than replacing it with an entirely different subclass. Also, as much as it annoys me, I have a fondness for weak player options in a general sense even if they never get fixed.

[Hael]

I'd say the undead pact is on the upper half of the warlock subclasses. I think hex is still the strongest, but id put it up with genie pretty easily. Celestial is up there (but just has a really niche function), and in my mind, fathomless is the average subclass. It certainly beats out archfey, fiend, great old one, and undying. Its first feature alone is better than both the combination of the archfeys (fear/charm for 1 turn on a short rest) and fiends (temp hp when killing an enemy).
.

I think Genie is definitely ahead. You can do some pretty broken things with that subclass, and it reaches a point in tier3 where I think they even surpass Hexblades, at least outside the niche of Gishing, but they're always great.

Celestials turn into monsters in tier 3, when they get access to spells like wall of fire, and can put out insane dpr. But before that I would say undeads are likely better, as the fear effect is really excellent until the higher CR monsters start being immune to the effect. So i'd put them together. But yes, definitely above Fathomless, Fiend and far ahead of the rest of the deplorables..

[verbatim]

That's... actually a really good point. I hadn't considered that. In order to cast a spell through a spellcasting focus, the spell has to have a Material component.

To make it usable, it should read something like "when you cast a bard spell that deals damage or restores hit points while holding your Spiritual Focus" instead of "through the Spiritual Focus".


Geez. What a glaring oversight.

Tasha's introduced a magic weapon (Moon Sickle) that does this. Given that the wording is unchanged from the UA that makes me think that either no one mentioned it in feedback or the decision was intentional?

Given that there are only 6 spells on the entire bard list that benefit from this feature (Cloud of Daggers, Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force, Shatter, Dream, Regenerate), I'm inclined to believe the former.

[whateew]

Imo, undead warlock is too combat focused, would be fun I'm sure but doesn't appeal much to me

The bard however is fantastic. Super flavoursome, and I have a custom lineage bard planned who takes the ritual caster feat and writes down the spells they ritually learn as secret spirit knowledge. It's also a perfect fit for the gathered whispers dark gift, and I look forward to playing this sometime.

[Emongnome777]

So 'chaos table rolling party' is Wild Barbarian, Wild Magic Sorcerer, Spirit Bard, and Alchemist?

I can understand the fluff for the first three with the random rolling table, but the Alchemist having one is so weird. "I'm a master alchemist mixing the same ingredients for the 1000th time. Let's see what random concoction I get this time!" (and don't start with "but with spell slots...". It's called "Experimental Elixir" for a reason) :smallsmile:

Sorry, off topic rant there.

Back to the original topic, as much as I dislike the table of random effects, I do love the spirits bard flavor. A bagpipe-wielding bard playing a dirge to summon help from the afterlife seems pretty awesome. Can be fun to role-play as well, at least with a patient, creative DM. Maybe one of the new Ravenloft races, but for some reason, I'm picturing a halfling for this character.