Am I Missing Something about Otto's Irresistible Dance?

[Composer99]

So, here's Otto's irresistible dance:


Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Choose one creature that you can see within range. The target begins a comic dance in place: shuffling, tapping its feet, and capering for the duration. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this spell.
A dancing creature must use all its movement to dance without leaving its space and has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws and attack rolls. While the target is affected by this spell, other creatures have advantage on attack rolls against it. As an action, a dancing creature makes a Wisdom saving throw to regain control of itself. On a successful save, the spell ends.


The target of this spell can't leave its space, but it isn't incapacitated - it can still take actions (although attacking creatures is harder).

Now, here's Tasha's hideous laughter:


Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (tiny tarts and a feather that is waved in the air)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute


A creature of your choice that you can see within range perceives everything as hilariously funny and falls into fits of laughter if this spell affects it. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or fall prone, becoming incapacitated and unable to stand up for the duration. A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isn't affected.


At the end of each of its turns, and each time it takes damage, the target can make another Wisdom saving throw. The target has advantage on the saving throw if it's triggered by damage. On a success, the spell ends.

The target is incapacitated, although it can crawl around despite being unable to stand up.

Irresistible dance is, by my reckoning, better than hideous laughter, insofar as the target of the former spell can be attacked without risking ending the spell. Action denial is great and all, but killing a creature is the most effective form of action denial. But is irresistible dance so much better as to justify being a 6th level spell when hideous laughter is a 1st-level spell? I'm not so sure, myself.

What do you think?

[Warder]

The power in Otto's is that the enemy doesn't get a save. It Just Works™.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Otto's just works, requiring an action to end. Tasha's has a save up front, plus a no action save on damage and end of turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, and I was toying with this spell as a level 6 bard selection. The "immune to charm" issue is why I didn't take it.


A dancing creature must use all its movement to dance without leaving its space and has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws and attack rolls. While the target is affected by this spell, other creatures have advantage on attack rolls against it. This is great for my allies to shred it, for a round or two.

[MaxWilson]

No initial save and restraint means Otto's can beat legendary resistance and give all PCs advantage on attacks (and disadvantage to the enemy, and no movement) for at least a round.

If there are e.g. animated skeletons with the party it almost doubles the party's DPR until it wears off, unlike Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

It's good enough at what it does to justify the 6th level slot.

Edit: wow, triple-ninja'ed.

[stoutstien]

The fact it takes an action to even attempt to remove the effect makes it very good at granting both disadvantage on incoming attacks and give party wide advantage as long as the target isn't immune to charm. The movement denial is pretty handy as well.

[MoiMagnus]

By the way, what are your opinion on the timing of the target's turn?
Since they must use all their movement to dance, is it the first thing they have to do on their turn (and even if they break out of the spell, they already lost their movement)? Or can they start by trying to break out and if they succeed they have their full movement?

[RogueJK]

The power in Otto's is that the enemy doesn't get a save. It Just Works™.

Bingo. At higher level play, Legendary Resistances make it tough to get debuffs to stick on bosses. Ottos guarantees a full/partial round of Advantage for the party, plus a wasted enemy action.

[Warder]

By the way, what are your opinion on the timing of the target's turn?
Since they must use all their movement to dance, is it the first thing they have to do on their turn (and even if they break out of the spell, they already lost their movement)? Or can they start by trying to break out and if they succeed they have their full movement?

The latter, since the spell doesn't mention timings it's fine to use your Action before your movement. Otherwise it'd say "at the start of its turn, a dancing creature must use...".

[KorvinStarmast]

Bingo. At higher level play, Legendary Resistances make it tough to get debuffs to stick on bosses. Ottos guarantees a full/partial round of Advantage for the party, plus a wasted enemy action. Hmmm, I like that, maybe I'll pick it up if we survive to 12th level.

[RogueJK]

While someone may be thinking "but even then it's just one round?!"... remember that D&D is a team sport. And this is a Level 6 spell, so won't come online until Tier 3 and 4.

Combine those, then consider that a Tier 3/4 Fighter with 3+ attacks plus Action Surge can get a lot of mileage out of just one round of guaranteed Advantage on all their attacks. And a Tier 3/4 Paladin can have a whole round of Advantaged crit-fishing attacks to use with 4th/5th level Smites. And a Tier 3/4 Rogue can land a whole buttload of Sneak Attack dice that round from the guaranteed Advantage. (Though it does loses much of its value if your turn comes directly before the boss' turn, so nobody can benefit before the boss can end it.)


Plus, if they don't have a high WIS or Legendary Resistances, they're even more screwed, as it'll likely last more than 1 round.

[Composer99]

Okay, thanks for all the responses. I must have not taken the lack of initial saving throw sufficiently into account.

(I am still dubious that in and of itself, this property makes irresistible dance a 6th-level spell, were it not for Arcane Recovery. If that feature were not in the game, I could see Otto's being 5th-level, personally.)


By the way, what are your opinion on the timing of the target's turn?
Since they must use all their movement to dance, is it the first thing they have to do on their turn (and even if they break out of the spell, they already lost their movement)? Or can they start by trying to break out and if they succeed they have their full movement?

PHB page 189 ("Your Turn") states, "You decide whether to move first or take your action first." So an affected target can certainly use its action to attempt to break free of the spell before using all of its movement as part of the spell's effect. If that's what the target does with its action, though, that's a pretty solid win.

[Witty Username]

Context matters. Hideous laughter is worth while at all levels of play (even at legendary resistance point, a 1st level spell to chink a use can sometimes be worth it). Irresistible dance can be worth it but it depends on what other spells you have on your list, Bards it can be pretty good( I prefer Mass suggestion but that is more in line with incomprables). On Wizard, things like wall of force can be much more potent, disabling multiple creatures or being completely impervious to legendary resistance.
My gut instinct:
Bard-decent
Wizard-meh
And I thought someone else got it but I guess not.

[Segev]

If you have two casters, tag-teaming Hideous Laughter and Irresistible Dance could be good. Stunning Fist on an Irresistible Dance victim is also pretty effective.