Advice on Spore Druid Build

[carkl3000]

Hi there!

I was recently invited to play in my first ever serious D&D game. I feel like I've spent my life adjacent to fantasy gaming, and I've had brief brushes with TTRPGs going all the way back to my childhood and AD&D, but I've never been involved in a game that went beyond a month or two of weekly sessions. I'm excited about this group because I know they play long campaigns that span years and character levels from 1-20 and beyond. I'm hoping this is the time I finally get to play some D&D!

We've already been playing for a few sessions and I have my character concept pretty much solidified. I'm starting with a Stout Halfing Arcana cleric for one level and then going the rest of the way in Circle of Spores Druid (unless I can find a really compelling reason to give cleric more than a 1 level dip or multiclass into something else as well...) Starting stats are 12 15 17 13 18 9 (we rolled for stats with some generous rolling rules.)

My plan is to use shillelagh, BB, GFB along with the spores druid class features and to mainly stay in the front line tanking, trying to deliver consistent DPR, and doing some crowd control with my summons and area spells.

I'm thinking from level 1-4, for the most part, I'll start out by casting shillelagh, and flaming sphere or shield of faith and then activate my symbiotic entity when I get it as I head into the fray and start whacking.

At Level 5 I am, without a doubt, taking warcaster so I don't have to worry about dropping shillelagh to cast VS spells, for the concentration saves, and for melee spell AoO.

Beyond that? I don't know...

I've thought of a few paths to take with ASI/Feats that seem like they'd be effective and/or fun to play, but as I pointed out above, I haven't done a whole lot of actual playing, so it's hard to imagine what will and won't work at the table.

Some weaknesses I'd like to address are:

1) Mobility - Being a halfling, I think it's interesting that I can move through an enemy's space. I'm imagining my little halfling funguy charging straight through the enemy's front line to attack the back row, but since I already have a movement penalty and those spaces are difficult terrain, I don't know that I'll get very far without something like the Mobile feat or Misty Step.

2) AC - I'm starting with Studded Leather and a shield and will probably never have more than +3 to dex. I could just rely on magic item drops or some homebrew item crafting (the DM does seem to be generous) to boost my AC, but a dexterity half feat plus medium armor master plus a half-plate of some exotic non-metal material would get me to 20AC without magic items, which seems good...

3) Saving throws - Similar to item 2. I will almost certainly be taking Res Con at some point and Res Dex is attractive, too, but then that precludes some of the other fun stuff.

I feel like the most practical path would be something like warcaster@5, Res Dex@9, Medium armor master@13, Res Con@17, and WIS ASI@20.

Maybe more fun? Would be warcaster, fey touched (for misty step and gift of alacrity), telekinetic, res con, res dex (to give me better ability to get into and out of melee range while avoiding AoO) OR

Warcaster, mobile, res dex, res con, wis ASI (I really like the idea of casting long strider before the fight with mobile and halfling nimbleness to give me a 90 ft dash, unobstructed if I'm lucky, through the front line enemies.)

I'm really curious to know if I'm close to being on the right track with my choices, or if I'm missing obvious problems, or missing opportunities to build a more functional character. I'm not an optimizer, and I won't be upset if my dude isn't out-damaging everybody in every fight. What I'm hoping to end up with is a fun character to play with some good options for most situations. I'd love to know what you all think.

[elyktsorb]

I dunno man, it seems like you know what you want to do and you've thought of anything relevant.

As for Arcane Cleric, you shouldn't put any more levels into that anyway, since you're just grabbing it as the easiest way to get BB and GFB, and additional levels of it won't really do anything for your build. Not to mention Spore Druid likes having as much of it's own levels as it can.

If you're really worried about your mobility I would recommend just not being a Halfling. But the ability to go through an enemies space is only needed if the enemy has a line of people blocking you. As you'd always prefer going around an enemy as opposed to through. Though this depends on how the table treats diagonals I suppose.

(Assuming your playing in a campaign that allows Tasha's stuff)
Goblin wouldn't be a bad choice just for the bonus action disengage.

Variant Human, or Custom Lineage will nab you one of those feat's you want early on.

Yuan-ti Pureblood is never not a good option, the poison immunity might be redundant if you get to a high enough level, but advantage against all spells will undoubtedly help you keep your temp hp.

Warforged is a +1 AC out of the gate
Tortle is a 19 AC with a Shield out of the gate
Symic Hybrid will be a +1 to AC at lvl 5

If your only concern is pure movement, Tabaxi is good.

Medium Armor master really feels like something you shouldn't consider. If you want 1 additional AC and still want to be a halfling I'd sooner suggest taking a level in Fighter and getting the Defense Fighting Style.

[carkl3000]

Thanks! I appreciate the input. I think everything you wrote is correct. When we were making characters the DM expressed a strong preference that we stick to PHB races. So a lot of the more optimal races just weren't options.

Regardless, as cliche as it is, I really wanted to play the "reluctant hero from the village destined for great things" and in my mind nothing fits that archetype as well as a halfling. I should have asked DM about custom lineage. Warcaster at level 1 would have been great. At this point though, I think race and stats are baked in. I'm not completely unhappy with the stout halfling features, though. Rerolling 1s and advantage on saves against frightened and poisoned seem like useful tanky things.

I think I agree about not using a feat just to increase AC by 1. But I don't think I like the cost to my spell progression and delaying ASIs if I dip a level of fighter either. I'll just hope to get some magic items that will help for defense.

Mobile feat is still attractive to me. The movement increase fixes the big shortcoming of my small stature, ignoring difficult terrain while dashing seems like a good fit since a lot of my area effect spells create difficult terrain, and the attack/disengage is definitely nice... Then I'd take res dex, res con and Wis ASI.

...But I think Fey Touched and Telekinetic are better choices. That maxes my wisdom, gives me misty step and a free all day every day initiative boost, and bonus action shoves at a distance with proficiency + wis mod. Then I can take res dex and res con and have proficiency +3, +4, and +5 for dex, con, and Wis saves.

Anyway... I'm still interested to know if anyone sees holes I need to patch, things that don't work the way I think they do, or if there are things I could choose that would have greater value or better potential for fun in combat than what I've laid out. I always like reading about fun tricks and tactics, as well.

[elyktsorb]

Regardless, as cliche as it is, I really wanted to play the "reluctant hero from the village destined for great things" and in my mind nothing fits that archetype as well as a halfling. I should have asked DM about custom lineage.

I would ask your DM if you can be a Ghostwise Halfling instead, as that gives you a +1 to Wisdom instead of Charisma, and it doesn't have the poison resist and the silent speech is a bit meh if your not playing a druid that turns into animals.

Other options include Lotsuden Halflings, which also give a +1 to Wisdom instead of Charisma, and have some druid themed abilities like giving you

"Child of the Wood. You know the druidcraft cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the entangle spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the spike growth spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Casting these spells with this trait doesn't require material components. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
And
Timberwalk. Ability checks made to track you have disadvantage, and you can move across difficult terrain made of nonmagical plants and undergrowth without expending extra movement."

Or a Mark of Healing Halfling which again gives you a +1 to Wisdom instead of Charisma as well as

"Medical Intuition. When you make a Wisdom (Medicine) check or an ability check using an herbalism kit, you can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the ability check.
And
Healing Touch. You can cast the cure wounds spell with this trait. Starting at 3rd level, you can also cast lesser restoration with it. Once you cast either spell with this trait, you can't cast that spell with it again until you finish a long rest. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells."

As well as some added spells to your spells list, about half of which you already get as a Druid, but the other half are Cleric/Paladin spells you wouldn't normally have.

If you can't convince your DM of those then I don't think you have any better options race wise if you want to still be a halfling.

[carkl3000]

I took stout halfling which gets +2 dex, +1 con. Lightfoot halfling gets the +1 to charisma. I'm very proud of my character's dour, unlikeable nature. :biggrin:

[carkl3000]

If Lotusden gave me "always prepared" entangle and spike growth I think that would be something to seriously consider. One free cast of each per day is good, but not great, I think.

[Rukelnikov]

One thing, by RAW you can't do Shillelagh and Flaming Sphere in the same turn. When you cast a spell as a bonus action (Shillelagh), you can only cast a cantrip with your action. You could do Shillelagh + BB/GFB. Of course your DM may rule differently.

[carkl3000]

One thing, by RAW you can't do Shillelagh and Flaming Sphere in the same turn. When you cast a spell as a bonus action (Shillelagh), you can only cast a cantrip with your action. You could do Shillelagh + BB/GFB. Of course your DM may rule differently.

Thanks for that! That's a weird one! You would think a spell on your action and a bonus action cantrip would be ok. Is that not the case?

[Rukelnikov]

Thanks for that! That's a weird one! You would think a spell on your action and a bonus action cantrip would be ok. Is that not the case?

Not by RAW, but we have ruled it ok in my group in one campaign (I wasn't DMing).

TBH I go back and forth on whether I should allow it or not, on one hand it seems to be on par with quickening a spell and casting a cantrip, on the other its more flexibility for casters, and do they really need more of it?

So IDK, check with your DM to see if its allowed at your table.

[Mutazoia]

One thing, by RAW you can't do Shillelagh and Flaming Sphere in the same turn. When you cast a spell as a bonus action (Shillelagh), you can only cast a cantrip with your action. You could do Shillelagh + BB/GFB. Of course your DM may rule differently.

Another thing you are going to want to clear with your DM is being able to use Wildshape to take animal form, and then again to activate Symbotic Entity without dropping your animal form. It's rather vague in the rules, and I've seen DMs rule it both ways.

At lower levels, Halo of Spores can be pretty handy, but it costs a reaction, and the things you will be fighting are rather quickly level out of the point where a D4 is going to do much, so at that point I wouldn't really bother with it unless you just want to cause some trouble to a group of low-level NPCs. (Think "Force Choking" the annoying shopkeeper that just tried to swindle you.)

All of your good abilities/spells are going to be Wisdom-based, so picking up feats like "Observant" to get that Wisdom boost will help a lot (not to mention that nice boost to your passive perception). Another good one to get, quite possibly your first feat, is "Shadow Touched." You'll get early access to "Invisibility" as well as one more 1st level spell. There are other feats that boost Wisdom, but they are either locked behind a racial prereq or are just lame besides offering the stat bump (chief).

Take any chance you can get to boost your Wisdom as much as possible. Stat boosting books, Ioun Stones, and as a last resort, a Deck of Many things if you can get the right card and not die an instant, horrible death.

As I said above, your real power as a Druid is going to be your support capabilities. Sure, you can Gish yourself out and be a front-line fighter, but you still won't be as effective as, say, a pack of summoned wolves. Seriously. Wolves get "Pack Tactics" which gives them advantage on their attack rolls as long as there are at least two of them attacking the same target. But if you're dead set on jumping to the front line, you're going to want the feat "Tough" at some point. This will boost your max HP by twice your level when you pick up the feet, and then by 2 for every level after that. The initial boost is, of course, retroactive.

Symbiotic Entity gives you a nice chunk of temporary HP to play with, but you can only use it a set number of times (it uses one Wildshape use). This makes it hard, especially at lower levels, to use as much as you are going to need to as a frontline. You'll find yourself either running out of uses or saving them all for "boss fights."

The fun really begins for a Spore Druid at level 6, when you get "Fungal Infestation". This allows you to create free Spore Zombies as a reaction (making using Halo of Spores a waste of a reaction). So if you, or a party member, kills a beast or humanoid of Medium size or smaller, you can instantly bring it back as a zombie under your control. Keep in mind that at 5th level you get access to "Animate Dead".

So, in theory, combat could go a little something like this:

Round 1: Summon 8 wolves. Have wolves kill a couple of things. Instantly raise a thing as a zombie.
Next round: Cast Animate dead to create another zombie. First zombie and wolves kill more things. Use reaction to raise a thing as a zombie.
Next round: Cast Animate dead to create another Zombie. Three zombies and 8 wolves kill more things. Raise a thing as a zombie.

Repeat Ad Nauseam until combat is over.

Since Raise dead is not a concentration spell, you can keep casting it while keeping concentration on your summoned wolves.

Spreading Spores is really useless, and I've never found a good reason to use it, other than the aforementioned "causing trouble for low-level NPCs". The next thing you REALLY get to look forward to is Fungal Body.

Fungal body makes you immune to being blinded, poisoned, deafened, frightened and, most importantly, immune to critical hits (unless you are already incapacitated).

All in all, you will be most effective as a ranged support type. Getting a few extra healing spells off when the shyte hits the fan cannot be underestimated, and Healing Spirit is going to be a great asset (it was monstrous before the nerf).

Oops. I almost forgot to add one more thing:

Although the build they discuss here uses a race not available to you, you still should REALLY consider this build here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ71u2PK9bo&t=228s

[carkl3000]

@Mutazoia Thanks! That's all good stuff! (Though I'd check the casting time on animate dead...)

I definitely intend to make use of summons.

Shadow Touched is a really nice feat thematically, but I think I like the spell selection offered by Fey Touched better. One free cast per day of Gift of Alacrity (which looks like it should stack with guidance) seems awesome, and Misty Step will be great to have as well.

I think I'll take Telekinetic, too to bring my Wis up to 20. Mental casting of an invisible mage hand is cool as hell, so is 5' shoves and pulls with a 30' range.

I think warcaster is my first necessary feat, though. It'll prevent me having to juggle staff and shield (not to mention losing shillelagh everytime I have to stow my staff) to cast spells with V and S components. Advantage on saves to maintain concentration and AoO with melee attack spells is huge, too.

[Mutazoia]

@Mutazoia Thanks! That's all good stuff! (Though I'd check the casting time on animate dead...)

I definitely intend to make use of summons.

Shadow Touched is a really nice feat thematically, but I think I like the spell selection offered by Fey Touched better. One free cast per day of Gift of Alacrity (which looks like it should stack with guidance) seems awesome, and Misty Step will be great to have as well.

I think I'll take Telekinetic, too to bring my Wis up to 20. Mental casting of an invisible mage hand is cool as hell, so is 5' shoves and pulls with a 30' range.

I think warcaster is my first necessary feat, though. It'll prevent me having to juggle staff and shield (not to mention losing shillelagh everytime I have to stow my staff) to cast spells with V and S components. Advantage on saves to maintain concentration and AoO with melee attack spells is huge, too.

If you're going to gish yourself out, then warcaster is a good choice. But you're not really going to be using many concentration spells if you're in melee, so it becomes kind of a wash. If you're going to be a mid or back-line caster/support, it's not a useful as it sounds as you're not going to be taking damage often enough to warrant blowing a feat on it.. And remember, the AoO is a reaction, which means you don't get that reaction for anything else, such as spore zombies or Halo of Spores, etc.

As for the V and S components, that really depends on whether or not your DM actually strictly enforces those or not. Most DMs don't, as it is one more thing to have to track in an already info-heavy scenario. You probably shouldn't be using a staff anyway, as your shillelagh would be far more effective damage-wise (although you'll most likely end up with a scimitar at some point, making the shillelagh rather useless).

I've played a Druid with and a Druid without Warcaster, and I found that getting other feats worked out better on the power scale than Warcaster. But that's just my personal experience.

[carkl3000]

If you're going to gish yourself out, then warcaster is a good choice. But you're not really going to be using many concentration spells if you're in melee, so it becomes kind of a wash. If you're going to be a mid or back-line caster/support, it's not a useful as it sounds as you're not going to be taking damage often enough to warrant blowing a feat on it.. And remember, the AoO is a reaction, which means you don't get that reaction for anything else, such as spore zombies or Halo of Spores, etc.

I totally want to go gish. Not sure why I wouldn't want to use concentration spells in melee. There's not really any reason not to have a summon or a flaming sphere up. With war caster I will have +3 and advantage on saves to maintain concentration. With halfling lucky that's ~93% to succeed on any hit up to 21 points of damage.

Warcaster would let me use Booming Blade or Inflict Wounds on an AoO instead of just my weapon attack. If I have reason to believe an ally is setting up to proc some AoOs, I would save my reaction for that. Otherwise, I'd use spores or make a zombo.


As for the V and S components, that really depends on whether or not your DM actually strictly enforces those or not. Most DMs don't, as it is one more thing to have to track in an already info-heavy scenario. You probably shouldn't be using a staff anyway, as your shillelagh would be far more effective damage-wise (although you'll most likely end up with a scimitar at some point, making the shillelagh rather useless).

Shillelagh is a bonus action cantrip that turns my staff into a magic weapon that uses my wisdom mod for hit bonus and damage instead of strength. It also combines with GFB or BB. It'll be a pretty effective melee weapon. It also acts as my druidic focus. But if I stow it to cast a spell that uses somatic but not material components, that will turn off Shillelagh. Then I have to use a bonus action to turn it on again. War caster gets rid of that problem. You're right that my DM probably won't always be keeping track of what weapons we have drawn and the implications to action economy, but I'll be thinking about it.


I've played a Druid with and a Druid without Warcaster, and I found that getting other feats worked out better on the power scale than Warcaster. But that's just my personal experience.

I'm not discounting that it might be more optimal to stay out of melee range (I just don't know). I'm also sure that there are more effective front line caster builds. I guess my initial question rephrased would be. Given that my character IS a stout halfling, spore druid, caster, tank, what are my best options for feats? And what are effective/fun tricks and tactics to keep in mind for both combat and non-combat situations?

Thanks again for the discussion!

[quindraco]

Warcaster would let me use Booming Blade or Inflict Wounds on an AoO instead of just my weapon attack. If I have reason to believe an ally is setting up to proc some AoOs, I would save my reaction for that. Otherwise, I'd use spores or make a zombo.

Without a house rule, war caster won't allow you to make an OA with any AOE, including Booming Blade - Booming Blade targets both its point of origin and the creature you hit with it, violating the wording on War Caster.

[carkl3000]

Without a house rule, war caster won't allow you to make an OA with any AOE, including Booming Blade - Booming Blade targets both its point of origin and the creature you hit with it, violating the wording on War Caster.

I think that's a pretty questionable interpretation. The spell says you target one creature with a melee weapon attack and that target is sheathed in energy. It doesn't say anything about an AOE or that you target the space where the creature is standing.

EDIT: Granted, Booming Blade doesn't do much until I hit 5th level and the extra d8 is added to the primary attack damage. Since the target has already made their move action and the rider effect only lasts until the end of my next turn, there's not really any chance for the rider damage to hit, but an extra d8 is fine, or like I said, I could burn a slot on Inflict Wounds instead.

[Mutazoia]

The problem with concentration spells in melee is that you are going to be getting hit. A lot. Possibly multiple times per round. Even with advantage you are going to fail a concentration check eventually, making your wolves go bye bye. And there are no flanking bonuses in 5e. Your wolves "Pack Tactics" is the closest thing and you don't get that.
Lucky only allows you to re-roll 1s, so its not the insta-save you are counting on. Rolling anything other than a 2 or better won't trigger Lucky, so counting on it to help you with your concentration checks is not really a good idea.

But this is just my opinion. You have a character concept you are excited to play, so go play it and have fun!

[carkl3000]

The problem with concentration spells in melee is that you are going to be getting hit. A lot. Possibly multiple times per round. Even with advantage you are going to fail a concentration check eventually, making your wolves go bye bye. And there are no flanking bonuses in 5e. Your wolves "Pack Tactics" is the closest thing and you don't get that.

There are optional flanking rules in the DMG. We've been using them so far.



Lucky only allows you to re-roll 1s, so its not the insta-save you are counting on. Rolling anything other than a 2 or better won't trigger Lucky, so counting on it to help you with your concentration checks is not really a good idea.

Totally, Lucky doesn't make a huge difference, it's roughly a 2pp increase for a DC10 save with +3 bonus and advantage. I think my math is correct, though. With war caster I'll have about a 93% chance to hit a 10 or better on my saves to maintain concentration. Without war caster it's only about a 74% chance to save. I will definitely miss on some of those saves, but I don't think it'll be that frequent. And eventually I'll be facing enemies that can hit for a lot more than 21 damage, but that probably won't be that frequent until higher levels and I'm adding res con later to help handle that. Eventually I'll have +4 con and +6 proficiency on those saves so anything under 21 damage really will be an auto save, but that's a long way away still.



But this is just my opinion. You have a character concept you are excited to play, so go play it and have fun!

Absolutely! I'm having a lot of fun.

[carkl3000]

Shadow Touched is a really nice feat thematically, but I think I like the spell selection offered by Fey Touched better. One free cast per day of Gift of Alacrity (which looks like it should stack with guidance) seems awesome, and Misty Step will be great to have as well.



Oops. Found a hole in my plan. I had assumed that "learning" misty step via Fey Touched would mean I can cast it using a spell slot, but I think that's not the case. I think one cast of Misty Step per day is not enough to make the feat worth taking.

[quindraco]

Oops. Found a hole in my plan. I had assumed that "learning" misty step via Fey Touched would mean I can cast it using a spell slot, but I think that's not the case. I think one cast of Misty Step per day is not enough to make the feat worth taking.

Fey Touched and Shadow Touched both allow casting via a spell slot no matter what. They're not the hopeless mess Magic Initiate is.

[quindraco]

I think that's a pretty questionable interpretation. The spell says you target one creature with a melee weapon attack and that target is sheathed in energy. It doesn't say anything about an AOE or that you target the space where the creature is standing.

EDIT: Granted, Booming Blade doesn't do much until I hit 5th level and the extra d8 is added to the primary attack damage. Since the target has already made their move action and the rider effect only lasts until the end of my next turn, there's not really any chance for the rider damage to hit, but an extra d8 is fine, or like I said, I could burn a slot on Inflict Wounds instead.

Tasha's made it an AOE. Here, I'll get you the relevant rules text.

The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts. - PHB p202

A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below). - PHB p204

Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object. - PHB p204

So it's not my personal interpretation. Booming Blade is an AOE in exactly the same way Burning Hands is, and neither one can be used with Warcaster, because both of them have at least two targets: their origin and the creature you want to hurt. The definition of Self (X foot radius) is an AOE spell that targets the caster as a point of origin for an AOE that also then targets things within that radius.

As always, you can play how you want at your table, but RAW, War Caster can't make OA attacks with any AOE, and Booming Blade is an AOE.

EDIT: Note that, as usual, a ruling on this is likely to have consequences elsewhere. If you e.g. declare that AOEs no longer target their origin point, Shield Master will work on Fireball when you're the only creature in the Fireball, but also Fireball will be allowed to cast through total cover the caster can see through (e.g. a Warlock using Ghost Sight on a brick wall).

[carkl3000]

Fey Touched and Shadow Touched both allow casting via a spell slot no matter what. They're not the hopeless mess Magic Initiate is.

That's good to know. I was comparing the text of Fey Touched with that of the Domain Spells, and Arcane Initiate features (and druid circle spells for that matter). The latter two say explicitly that the spells you learn count as cleric spells for you. Since Fey Touched doesn't include that clarifier, I thought maybe it meant that those spells could only be cast using 1) The ability granted by the feat , or 2) Spell slots acquired through the spellcasting features of a class to which those spells belong. Know what I mean?

[Sorinth]

If you plan on using Booming Blade as your primary attack then I would be tempted to grab the Crusher feat (Although being a small race kind of hurts here). I know you seem set on Halfling, but High-Elf would allow grabbing said cantrip without the Arcana cleric dip and works better with Crusher.

Resilience Dex doesn't really seem needed, and although Medium Armor Master isn't bad, I would definitely want to get my 20 Wis before it. So I would take the +Wis, Warcaster, and Crusher as the first 3 ASI in whatever order you prefer.

My advice for a Spore Druid is scouting is very important since being able to get Symbiotic Entity up and running before the fight is a huge boost, RP wise this lends itself to playing a cautious person, which can fit the reluctant peasant hero halfling vibe. Spore druid is fairly versatile so long as you don't run to the front lines to start every fight.

[carkl3000]

Tasha's made it an AOE. Here, I'll get you the relevant rules text.

The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts. - PHB p202

A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below). - PHB p204

Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object. - PHB p204

So it's not my personal interpretation. Booming Blade is an AOE in exactly the same way Burning Hands is, and neither one can be used with Warcaster, because both of them have at least two targets: their origin and the creature you want to hurt. The definition of Self (X foot radius) is an AOE spell that targets the caster as a point of origin for an AOE that also then targets things within that radius.

As always, you can play how you want at your table, but RAW, War Caster can't make OA attacks with any AOE, and Booming Blade is an AOE.

EDIT: Note that, as usual, a ruling on this is likely to have consequences elsewhere. If you e.g. declare that AOEs no longer target their origin point, Shield Master will work on Fireball when you're the only creature in the Fireball, but also Fireball will be allowed to cast through total cover the caster can see through (e.g. a Warlock using Ghost Sight on a brick wall).

Huh ... I didn't even know that rewrite existed. I definitely understand where you're coming from now. I had to look into it further.

It seems that WotC anticipated this issue before the release of the book. There's a sage advice video that addresses the interaction of BB and GFB with war caster, twin spell, spell sniper, and other feats and features. https://youtu.be/xUOaQ_XY7wE

Crawford clarifies that the range of self(5ft) does not mean that the spell targets self and an AoE. It means that the target of the attack must be within 5' of the caster. The target of the spell is still a single creature within range that you target with a melee weapon attack. It works with war caster OAs.

[Mutazoia]

If you're going to Gish yourself out, you may want to look into picking up a couple of levels of Monk. The unarmored defense will make great use of your already high Wisdom modifier for your casting. Plus you can have the great joy of Wildshaping into, say, an Ape, and then using Flurry of blows. Taking 3 levels of Monk will let you pick your monastic tradition, and Longdeath Monk would allow you to get temp HP when you defeat an opponent. This would be an excellent backup for when the temp HP of your Symbiotic Entity finally gets chewed down.

Combine the extra attacks from the monk, with the extra necrotic damage from symbiotic entity added to the extra damage from your Monk levels added to the damage from your shillelagh spell to your staff (monk weapon)....

So your melee damage would be 1D8+1d6+1d4 at 3rd level monk. A potential damage range of 3-18 without factoring in a strength modifier.

From 3rd level Monk, personally I would swap back and forth between Druid and Monk levels, unless there is a Druid spell that you REALLY want.

[carkl3000]

If you plan on using Booming Blade as your primary attack then I would be tempted to grab the Crusher feat (Although being a small race kind of hurts here). I know you seem set on Halfling, but High-Elf would allow grabbing said cantrip without the Arcana cleric dip and works better with Crusher.

Resilience Dex doesn't really seem needed, and although Medium Armor Master isn't bad, I would definitely want to get my 20 Wis before it. So I would take the +Wis, Warcaster, and Crusher as the first 3 ASI in whatever order you prefer.

I agree about resilient dex. I was just looking for something to round out an odd dex score, but since dex saves happen often, I thought it was an ok pick. I've also thought about squat nimbleness and second chance to fill that slot.

Crusher looks like a great pick. I like it for most of the same reasons I like telekinetic. It's nice that it doesn't take up my bonus action and can just be applied any time I hit. Telekinetic uses bonus action and hits on failed strength save, so much less predictable in use, but could also be used to help out an ally within 30', or to push or pull a more distant enemy into an AoE. And it works for any creature regardless of size.


My advice for a Spore Druid is scouting is very important since being able to get Symbiotic Entity up and running before the fight is a huge boost, RP wise this lends itself to playing a cautious person, which can fit the reluctant peasant hero halfling vibe. Spore druid is fairly versatile so long as you don't run to the front lines to start every fight.

That's excellent advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I've already been thinking about when it seems appropriate to precast Shillelagh or activate SE. Trying to keep Shillelagh up while stealthing around seems to violate the spirit of the rules, but scouting first, then backing off to prepare for battle before heading in seems like a solid strategy.

[quindraco]

Huh ... I didn't even know that rewrite existed. I definitely understand where you're coming from now. I had to look into it further.

It seems that WotC anticipated this issue before the release of the book. There's a sage advice video that addresses the interaction of BB and GFB with war caster, twin spell, spell sniper, and other feats and features. https://youtu.be/xUOaQ_XY7wE

Crawford clarifies that the range of self(5ft) does not mean that the spell targets self and an AoE. It means that the target of the attack must be within 5' of the caster. The target of the spell is still a single creature within range that you target with a melee weapon attack. It works with war caster OAs.

Crawford is famously very bad at reading comprehension. His input is potentially valuable for RAI, for certain, but he doesn't have the power to issue RAW declarations in youtube videos, so he can't override the PHB like that. WOTC would have to, at a minimum, issue his opinion in the SAC (where it would become, as often happens, an instance of the SAC contradicting the PHB and DMs would have to houserule which rule to obey), or at maximum, errata the PHB, which I doubt would occur.

If you go with the Crawford ruling, which, again, violates the PHB but may well be what WOTC always intended, here's a list of the self-targeting AOEs:

Antilife Shell
Antimagic Field
Arms of Hadar
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Aura of Vitality
Booming Blade
Burning Hands
Circle of Power
Color Spray
Cone of Cold
Conjure Barrage
Control Weather
Crusader's Mantle
Destructive Wave
Fear
Frost Fingers
Globe of Invulnerability
Gravity Fissure
Green-Flame Blade
Gust of Wind
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Lure
Prismatic Spray
Pulse Wave
Speak with Plants
Spirit Guardians
Sunbeam
Sword Burst
Tasha's Caustic Brew
Thunderwave

Not all of those are self(x-foot radius), so if the intent is to exclude named AOE shapes - e.g. Thunderwave, which is a self-targeted cube, rather than radius - here are the remaining spells. All of them are self (X radius) except for Leomund's Tiny Hut, which is a hemisphere; that's not one of the five named AOE shapes where the PHB explicitly spells out point of origin inclusion or not, so I'm not clear on whether to include it or not.

Antilife Shell
Antimagic Field
Arms of Hadar
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Aura of Vitality
Booming Blade
Circle of Power
Control Weather
Crusader's Mantle
Destructive Wave
Globe of Invulnerability
Green-Flame Blade
Leomund's Tiny Hut***
Lightning Lure
Speak with Plants
Spirit Guardians
Sword Burst

Some of those only target their point of origin, so this ruling renders them targetless - aside from the already mentioned violation of the PHB (all spells must have at least one target, and the definition of range is the range to the target), it will have strange interactions with other rules that expect all spells to have targets. For example, an Order Cleric can normally use Aura of Vitality to make a weapon attack as a reaction, but only because Aura of Vitality targets its point of origin, which is the cleric. With that removed, the ability is gone.

[carkl3000]

Crawford is famously very bad at reading comprehension. His input is potentially valuable for RAI, for certain, but he doesn't have the power to issue RAW declarations in youtube videos, so he can't override the PHB like that. WOTC would have to, at a minimum, issue his opinion in the SAC (where it would become, as often happens, an instance of the SAC contradicting the PHB and DMs would have to houserule which rule to obey), or at maximum, errata the PHB, which I doubt would occur.

If you go with the Crawford ruling, which, again, violates the PHB but may well be what WOTC always intended, here's a list of the self-targeting AOEs:

Antilife Shell
Antimagic Field
Arms of Hadar
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Aura of Vitality
Booming Blade
Burning Hands
Circle of Power
Color Spray
Cone of Cold
Conjure Barrage
Control Weather
Crusader's Mantle
Destructive Wave
Fear
Frost Fingers
Globe of Invulnerability
Gravity Fissure
Green-Flame Blade
Gust of Wind
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Lure
Prismatic Spray
Pulse Wave
Speak with Plants
Spirit Guardians
Sunbeam
Sword Burst
Tasha's Caustic Brew
Thunderwave

Not all of those are self(x-foot radius), so if the intent is to exclude named AOE shapes - e.g. Thunderwave, which is a self-targeted cube, rather than radius - here are the remaining spells. All of them are self (X radius) except for Leomund's Tiny Hut, which is a hemisphere; that's not one of the five named AOE shapes where the PHB explicitly spells out point of origin inclusion or not, so I'm not clear on whether to include it or not.

Antilife Shell
Antimagic Field
Arms of Hadar
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Aura of Vitality
Booming Blade
Circle of Power
Control Weather
Crusader's Mantle
Destructive Wave
Globe of Invulnerability
Green-Flame Blade
Leomund's Tiny Hut***
Lightning Lure
Speak with Plants
Spirit Guardians
Sword Burst

Some of those only target their point of origin, so this ruling renders them targetless - aside from the already mentioned violation of the PHB (all spells must have at least one target, and the definition of range is the range to the target), it will have strange interactions with other rules that expect all spells to have targets. For example, an Order Cleric can normally use Aura of Vitality to make a weapon attack as a reaction, but only because Aura of Vitality targets its point of origin, which is the cleric. With that removed, the ability is gone.

Meh, it doesn't really bother me. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with the interpretation given by the designer of the book.

[quindraco]

Meh, it doesn't really bother me. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with the interpretation given by the designer of the book.

I'm guessing you didn't read my post.

You can go with the interpretation given by the designer of the book, if you like. What my post contained was a list of spells that are subject to that interpretation, so you can be consistent.

[carkl3000]

Some of those only target their point of origin, so this ruling renders them targetless - aside from the already mentioned violation of the PHB (all spells must have at least one target, and the definition of range is the range to the target), it will have strange interactions with other rules that expect all spells to have targets. For example, an Order Cleric can normally use Aura of Vitality to make a weapon attack as a reaction, but only because Aura of Vitality targets its point of origin, which is the cleric. With that removed, the ability is gone.

I don't see it. I guess you're talking about the Voice of Authority feature? I think it's pretty clear that that feature only works when you target an ally with a spell. How do you RP a cleric "invoking the power of law to embolden" himself to attack. Sounds silly to me.

From the description of aura of vitality, I think it's pretty clear that the target of the spell is the caster and the effect is that they now have an aura with a 30' radius that can heal one creature within on a bonus action.

[carkl3000]

I'm guessing you didn't read my post.

You can go with the interpretation given by the designer of the book, if you like. What my post contained was a list of spells that are subject to that interpretation, so you can be consistent.

I read it and I read a lot of the spell descriptions you listed. I haven't found anything yet that seems to present any problems.

[carkl3000]

So it's not my personal interpretation. Booming Blade is an AOE in exactly the same way Burning Hands is, and neither one can be used with Warcaster, because both of them have at least two targets: their origin and the creature you want to hurt. The definition of Self (X foot radius) is an AOE spell that targets the caster as a point of origin for an AOE that also then targets things within that radius.

Burning hands is in every way an AoE spell. You target all creatures within the area of the spell's effect. The spell doesn't target the caster.

Booming Blade is not an AoE spell. The target (which is not the caster) is a single creature that must be within 5' of the origin of the spell (which is the caster)


As always, you can play how you want at your table, but RAW, War Caster can't make OA attacks with any AOE, and Booming Blade is an AOE.

EDIT: Note that, as usual, a ruling on this is likely to have consequences elsewhere. If you e.g. declare that AOEs no longer target their origin point, Shield Master will work on Fireball when you're the only creature in the Fireball, but also Fireball will be allowed to cast through total cover the caster can see through (e.g. a Warlock using Ghost Sight on a brick wall).

There's no reason that if the target of fireball is a point in space and the origin of the AoE (which it is), that the origin of Booming Blade must be a target of the spell. (It is not). Or that the spell must effect an area (it doesn't.)

[carkl3000]

If you're going to Gish yourself out, you may want to look into picking up a couple of levels of Monk. The unarmored defense will make great use of your already high Wisdom modifier for your casting. Plus you can have the great joy of Wildshaping into, say, an Ape, and then using Flurry of blows. Taking 3 levels of Monk will let you pick your monastic tradition, and Longdeath Monk would allow you to get temp HP when you defeat an opponent. This would be an excellent backup for when the temp HP of your Symbiotic Entity finally gets chewed down.

Combine the extra attacks from the monk, with the extra necrotic damage from symbiotic entity added to the extra damage from your Monk levels added to the damage from your shillelagh spell to your staff (monk weapon)....

So your melee damage would be 1D8+1d6+1d4 at 3rd level monk. A potential damage range of 3-18 without factoring in a strength modifier.

From 3rd level Monk, personally I would swap back and forth between Druid and Monk levels, unless there is a Druid spell that you REALLY want.

Yeah, extra attacks from monk would definitely work well with symbiotic entity. I think one should be able to add the d6 from SE to each hit that lands. So with flurry of blows that could be 1d6 (staff)+3d6 (SE)+2d4 (flurry) unless I'm mistaken, plus the 2d4 for halo of spores. I'm not clear whether Shillelagh or the blade cantrips would work with this build. My intuition is that they wouldn't. If I hadn't started with a level of arcana cleric that would be at level 2 druid/level 2 monk.

At cleric 1/druid 3 I'll only have 1d8 (Shillelagh) + 1d6 (SE) + the possible rider damage from BB or GFB. but I will also be able to cast flaming sphere at that point for an extra 2d6 per round. DPR looks like it would be pretty similar. At cleric 1/druid 4 I'll get a significant boost when BB adds possible 2d8 additional damage

Anyway... Yeah, I think Monk/Spore Druid could be a lot of fun!

[carkl3000]

...but also Fireball will be allowed to cast through total cover the caster can see through (e.g. a Warlock using Ghost Sight on a brick wall).

How in the world do you come up with this?

[Mutazoia]

Yeah, extra attacks from monk would definitely work well with symbiotic entity. I think one should be able to add the d6 from SE to each hit that lands. So with flurry of blows that could be 1d6 (staff)+3d6 (SE)+2d4 (flurry) unless I'm mistaken, plus the 2d4 for halo of spores. I'm not clear whether Shillelagh or the blade cantrips would work with this build. My intuition is that they wouldn't. If I hadn't started with a level of arcana cleric that would be at level 2 druid/level 2 monk.

At cleric 1/druid 3 I'll only have 1d8 (Shillelagh) + 1d6 (SE) + the possible rider damage from BB or GFB. but I will also be able to cast flaming sphere at that point for an extra 2d6 per round. DPR looks like it would be pretty similar. At cleric 1/druid 4 I'll get a significant boost when BB adds possible 2d8 additional damage

Anyway... Yeah, I think Monk/Spore Druid could be a lot of fun!

Remember, Shillelagh makes your staff damage 1d8 rather than 1d6.

And since your unarmored defense from Monk will be your Wisdom + Dexterity, and you're already planning to bump your Wisdom for your casting bonuses, you can just keep putting your stat increases into one or the other until you max out at 20. (Then you'll need magic intervention). This will mean you don't have to worry about getting great armor, maybe just pick up some bracers or something to give you a plus or two to AC later.

With Monk you also get to use your Dex as your attack modifier, so you don't need to make your strength much higher than a 12 or so, just to get a little extra damage (and you can boost that with magic as well).

[carkl3000]

Remember, Shillelagh makes your staff damage 1d8 rather than 1d6.

And since your unarmored defense from Monk will be your Wisdom + Dexterity, and you're already planning to bump your Wisdom for your casting bonuses, you can just keep putting your stat increases into one or the other until you max out at 20. (Then you'll need magic intervention). This will mean you don't have to worry about getting great armor, maybe just pick up some bracers or something to give you a plus or two to AC later.

With Monk you also get to use your Dex as your attack modifier, so you don't need to make your strength much higher than a 12 or so, just to get a little extra damage (and you can boost that with magic as well).

I like it for a build that doesn't use arcana cleric to access the blade cantrips. But since I've done the cleric dip already, I think for this character I'm better off going the rest of the way with druid.

I also think to get extra attack and some other benefits from monk, you are giving up a lot of good stuff (druid spells, lots of thp to keep SE active longer, fungal body). It sounds cool and worth trying, but it's not all gravy. 😄

[quindraco]

I don't see it. I guess you're talking about the Voice of Authority feature? I think it's pretty clear that that feature only works when you target an ally with a spell. How do you RP a cleric "invoking the power of law to embolden" himself to attack. Sounds silly to me.

From the description of aura of vitality, I think it's pretty clear that the target of the spell is the caster and the effect is that they now have an aura with a 30' radius that can heal one creature within on a bonus action.

No, you said you were going with the interpretation that a spell with a range of self(5-foot radius) doesn't target the caster. So aura of vitality doesn't target the caster.

Remember, the definition of a spell's range is the range to the target (for AOEs and such, there may be additional targets later, like with fireball - the range is the range to the "primary" target, if you will). Booming Blade and Aura of Vitality either both target the caster, or neither does.

[carkl3000]

No, you said you were going with the interpretation that a spell with a range of self(5-foot radius) doesn't target the caster. So aura of vitality doesn't target the caster. Wrong. You are conflating the range of the spell with the target of the spell. It doesn't work like that.


Remember, the definition of a spell's range is the range to the target (for AOEs and such, there may be additional targets later, like with fireball - the range is the range to the "primary" target, if you will).

Nowhere in the book does it say that range is defined as distance to the target. Nor does it say that the origin of the range must be a target of the spell. Nor does it say that the range defined in a self(x) range spell must be an AoE


Range
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.

Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.

Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.

Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.



Areas of Effect
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.

A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.

A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover.


Booming Blade and Aura of Vitality either both target the caster, or neither does.

Nope. You're just making stuff up.

[ATHATH]

1) Mobility - Being a halfling, I think it's interesting that I can move through an enemy's space. I'm imagining my little halfling funguy charging straight through the enemy's front line to attack the back row, but since I already have a movement penalty and those spaces are difficult terrain, I don't know that I'll get very far without something like the Mobile feat or Misty Step.
Remember that the Longstrider spell exists!

[carkl3000]

Remember that the Longstrider spell exists!

Yup! From about 3rd level on, I think I'll probably turn it on just about every day.

[carkl3000]

Is it bad form on this forum to raise one's own thread from the dead? What the heck, I'm a necromancer, I'm doing it anyway. :smallsmile:

I've got one small change to my build that has a little bit of an effect on what feats I might choose in the future and, of course, I can't help but obsess over this choice I'll have to make a year from now if/when the party gets to level 9.

In light of Tasha's alternate rules in ability scores bonuses, my DM let me retroactively change from stout halfling's +2 dex, +1 con to the reverse, +2 con, +1 dex. So now I have even scores in both, +4 con modifier and, +2 dex modifier. (and sitting on 18 Wis for now)

I'm sticking hard to taking war caster at level 5, but still pondering what to do with ASI/feats for levels 9, 13, 17, and 20.

I think the path I like the best at this point is Fey Touched at 9 for misty step and gift of Alacrity, Skill expert at 13 (to max out wis), res con at 17, and second chance at 20 (to max con).

But I also like mobility at 9 and Wis ASI at 13 instead.

Anything else I should think about for a tanky, frontline, full-caster, summoner build?

I could definitely skip the half feats, take +2 Wis, +2 con, and two additional full feats, but I really like the variety that the half feats give me, and I think all together they end up being worth more than the 2 ASIs, plus 2 feats.

What do you think?