Scaling it Back?

[DwarfFighter]

Ok, so you have your campaign running, and your players hit level 10. Then over the weekend you come up with this great plot for an adventure, but you realize that it is unplayable: At this point the PCs have all the tools they need to instantly solve the mystery, defeat the puzzles, overwhelm the guardians, see through the distractions and so on. To put it simply: You came up with the plot too late and the PCs have advanced too far.

How would you go about scaling it back so that your Level 3 adventure can be played in your Level 10 campaign?

(Let's assume whatever you come up with will be fine with the players, otherwise what's the point?)

-DF

[Crucius]

Going out on a limb here and say that probably maybe your problems are solved with tactically placed antimagic fields?

Otherwise you could try framing it as a flashback? A kind of one-shot within the campaign? No idea if this is possible for the idea you have.

Maybe you don't need a catch-all solution, maybe you could tackle the problems one by one. What abilities are you talking about in relation to the obstacles you want to place?

[Amnestic]

My initial thought was to up the power level of the situation - enemies are stronger, they're using more magic to cover their tracks, etc.

Instead I think you should just run it as you've constructed it. Give them a few sessions of feeling really powerful, let them flex their level 10 muscles, dominate the enemy, fix the problem, and generally speedrun whatever 'story' you've arranged for them. And after they do really well, solve the problems, rescue the dude in distress, the speed of their heroism grabs the attention of someone who either a) asks them to fight an actual threat to them or b) is an actual threat to them and wants to kill them.

[Sigreid]

I'm sure whatever you've got in mind can be done for level 10. Unfortunately, without knowing what you have in mind it's really hard to offer suggestions.

As to your specific question, that would be new characters.

[DwarfFighter]

Going out on a limb here and say that probably maybe your problems are solved with tactically placed antimagic fields?

Otherwise you could try framing it as a flashback? A kind of one-shot within the campaign? No idea if this is possible for the idea you have.

Maybe you don't need a catch-all solution, maybe you could tackle the problems one by one. What abilities are you talking about in relation to the obstacles you want to place?

Flashback idea resonates with me! The PCs sit at a tavern and go "Remember that time back in Blodhafen when we..."

Instead of imposing weird limits on the PCs through outside forces like anti-Magic fields or curses, just use their characters as they are, but cap class features and other level-based benefits such as proficiency bonuses at a certain level. Scale it back to level 2? Your Fighter still has all his hit points and ability scores, but proficiency bonus is counted as +2 (level appropriate) and he can only use his first and second level class features.

Equipment and magical items are a bit tricky, but you could always handwave stuff like that as "remembering it different", same goes for continuity inconsistencies.

Also, no PCs dies :)

Maybe even figure an appropriate xp award for the adventure at the end based on their actual level instead of the scaled-back level.

-DF

[MaxWilson]

Ok, so you have your campaign running, and your players hit level 10. Then over the weekend you come up with this great plot for an adventure, but you realize that it is unplayable: At this point the PCs have all the tools they need to instantly solve the mystery, defeat the puzzles, overwhelm the guardians, see through the distractions and so on. To put it simply: You came up with the plot too late and the PCs have advanced too far.

How would you go about scaling it back so that your Level 3 adventure can be played in your Level 10 campaign?

(Let's assume whatever you come up with will be fine with the players, otherwise what's the point?)

-DF

Honestly? I run the adventure anyway and see if "instantly solving everything" is actually what happens, or just what could theoretically happen. And then I hand out XP and congratulate them a victory... while wearing the evilest smirk I can put on my face (to evoke player paranoia).

It's not actually bad if players have an easy time. It's just bad if it happens so often that the DM gets bored and wants to quit DMing.

[DwarfFighter]

Honestly? I run the adventure anyway and see if "instantly solving everything" is actually what happens, or just what could theoretically happen. And then I hand out XP and congratulate them a victory... while wearing the evilest smirk I can put on my face (to evoke player paranoia).


Already did, not trying that again any time soon. Well, it didn't come down the xp reward and smirking.

It didn't even register with the players and I was so disappointed with how it played out I didn't even make an issue out of it. They met the NPC, cast Greater Restoration, and there was no need to go digging for clues why he got infected in the first place. The whole revenge plot-line was left unexplored, none of the challenges were encountered. On the plus side I have a good idea for an adventure to run next time we start out low, right? Whenever that happens.

-DF

[Pex]

My initial thought was to up the power level of the situation - enemies are stronger, they're using more magic to cover their tracks, etc.

Instead I think you should just run it as you've constructed it. Give them a few sessions of feeling really powerful, let them flex their level 10 muscles, dominate the enemy, fix the problem, and generally speedrun whatever 'story' you've arranged for them. And after they do really well, solve the problems, rescue the dude in distress, the speed of their heroism grabs the attention of someone who either a) asks them to fight an actual threat to them or b) is an actual threat to them and wants to kill them.

I like this idea. Maybe put in a level 10 appropriate monster(s) than originally intended here and there, but if they bypass the non-monster obstacles let them. This is the players' moment to shine and appreciate the power level they achieved. There's no need for an evil grin. You aren't the players' enemy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Either scale it up, or save it for another campaign.

[MaxWilson]

Already did, not trying that again any time soon. Well, it didn't come down the xp reward and smirking.

It didn't even register with the players and I was so disappointed with how it played out I didn't even make an issue out of it. They met the NPC, cast Greater Restoration, and there was no need to go digging for clues why he got infected in the first place. The whole revenge plot-line was left unexplored, none of the challenges were encountered. On the plus side I have a good idea for an adventure to run next time we start out low, right? Whenever that happens.

-DF

Oh, sorry. When you said "all the tools they need to instantly solve the mystery, defeat the puzzles, overwhelm the guardians, see through the distractions and so on" I didn't realize you just meant "I don't have a hook for the adventure that makes adventuring more logical than casting Greater Restoration."

If it's that kind of thing (not having a hook), I could just make it a curse (so that Remove Curse is needed instead of Greater Restoration, which the players probably won't guess) and add in a secondary threat vector by making the curse contagious and demonstrate that he's already spread out to several others, so that investigating the source is the best way to find a general cure and prevent an epidemic.

[Unoriginal]

Ok, so you have your campaign running, and your players hit level 10. Then over the weekend you come up with this great plot for an adventure, but you realize that it is unplayable: At this point the PCs have all the tools they need to instantly solve the mystery, defeat the puzzles, overwhelm the guardians, see through the distractions and so on. To put it simply: You came up with the plot too late and the PCs have advanced too far.

How would you go about scaling it back so that your Level 3 adventure can be played in your Level 10 campaign?

(Let's assume whatever you come up with will be fine with the players, otherwise what's the point?)

-DF

Two ideas:

1) Have the current PCs retire, now renowned heroes, and start a new campaign with the low-level PCs as the "new generation".

2) Have the current PCs retire, now renowned heroes... and have a massive timeskip, followed by the PCs, now decades out of the action, going back in the saddle for one last adventure when something linked to their past happens.

As old folks they'll have their past gears, plus allies, power bases, etc they wouldn't have the first time they were first low-level, of course.



Already did, not trying that again any time soon. Well, it didn't come down the xp reward and smirking.

It didn't even register with the players and I was so disappointed with how it played out I didn't even make an issue out of it. They met the NPC, cast Greater Restoration, and there was no need to go digging for clues why he got infected in the first place. The whole revenge plot-line was left unexplored, none of the challenges were encountered. On the plus side I have a good idea for an adventure to run next time we start out low, right? Whenever that happens.

-DF

The Van Richten's has interesting stuff about curses (incuding monster-transmitted curses) and how to make them harder (and such more thematically interesting) to handle.

[solidork]

The flashback idea is good, but I'd also at least consider doing a one shot with the players playing other characters but set in the same world/continuity.

This can be a fun change of pace, especially if there are interesting NPCs the party has met before that they can play as. You'd have to trust your players but I'd personally jump at the chance.

[Kane0]

I like the sound of letting them bulldoze the adventure which itself operates like a hook to the next one, which conveniently also gives you time to think of said next one.

[Lupine]

Either scale it up, or save it for another campaign.

Grod, once again, nails it.

Forcing the players to a lower level will just annoy them. As I see it, your problem is probably magic users, as martials don’t gain a lot of capability that a higher hp sac can’t fix (also, if you can’t run this because you want yo run a specific monster, scale that monster. For example, if you want to run a green hag based thing, make the green hag a auntie or even grandmother hag. If you want a wraith, try a “greater wraith,” with buffed stats)

Because of that, make magic sometimes that player want to think about using, not something they can’t use easily. Perhaps the local residents are highly anti-magic. Or maybe magic is a thing reserved for warlords, catching the attention of the current warlord, who tracks down the party to silence a threat to his power.
This would have the effect (making magic less available) without making a cop-out type thing such as an anti-magic field. It also allows the players to use magic, but as something which is dangerous to display, and needs secret preparation to use.

But to grod’s point. Either change the setting to make caution advisable, scale the monsters, or save the puzzle.

[Composer99]

I think the following ideas are viable, if you feel compelled to run this adventure in the near future without scaling up (assuming scaling up is possible):
- flashback session
- one-shot with different characters
- the party bulldozes through the obstacle, with, as Kane0 suggests, hooks leading to the next, more challenging adventure

Otherwise, saving the idea for a subsequent campaign makes more sense.

[heavyfuel]

If you don't want high level abilities doing what high level abilities do, don't play at high levels where such abilities exist.

Don't arbitraly negate player's abilities with liberal usage of AMFs whenever they are convenient, as opposed to whenever they would make sense.

My suggestion is that you shelf this idea. You can use it for another lower level campaign in the future. It's not going to go to waste if you don't use it immediately.

[DwarfFighter]

The flashback idea is good, but I'd also at least consider doing a one shot with the players playing other characters but set in the same world/continuity.

This can be a fun change of pace, especially if there are interesting NPCs the party has met before that they can play as. You'd have to trust your players but I'd personally jump at the chance.

I've done a few "the other guys" shorts in the past, worked pretty well in Star Trek and Star Wars, but there is no denying that there is a character disconnect. The story is part of the campaign, but not the character the players are running.

[Kane0]

Ooh, another idea: introduce a third party. The challenge comes from not doing the adventure, but doing it faster/better/in spite of that third party in opposition to your party (it doesn't necessarily have to be an actual party, but Oots proves that totally works).

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've been running an open world for a few years now where every player has multiple characters. Sometimes I give them an adventure they'd like to do, but all their characters seriously outlevel it- cause for me to award no XP if they use them. To remedy this, I introduced a deleveling system, where a player may choose to 'set' the adventure at a previous point in their career, and we openly ignore issues this causes with linear time. They return their level to the appropriate one for the adventure and take the average HP for that level (normally I let them roll HP or take average as they want, but tracking that's too much of a headache for deleveling). I allow them to use whatever items they've got as normal, since the players already have a rather flourishing ecosystem of goodies to transfer around at will anyway and inheriting better gear from veterans has been a staple.

But sometimes, I have a one-off that still doesn't work this way, usually a holiday adventure. For those I have them make new characters, with a couple rules to keep things fun for the main game: any magic item you earn goes to your normal characters, and gold earned can either also go to them or be gambled away on a few random rolls on the magic item tables. They usually opt for spending all their money on gambling since these adventures are typically low level and thus not particularly lucrative. Adding to this, I throw some modifiers in place according to the level they choose. If they start play at the intended level, they earn as normal. One level below, and I increase their profits by 20%. Two levels below, and it's 50%. I let the players 'game' this system by deciding who will go low and who will go high in order to maximize profits without risking too much. It's a fun little meta game. On rare occasions, I also let them ascend these characters to the main game if they happened to like them.

[DwarfFighter]

Grod, once again, nails it.

Forcing the players to a lower level will just annoy them.

But to grod’s point. Either change the setting to make caution advisable, scale the monsters, or save the puzzle.

The basic premise for this thread was to ask for suggestions for when you 1) can't scale things up, 2) don't want to save it for later and 3) the players are assumed to be fine with whatever solution you pick, ref. the OP.

If Grod "nailed it", he was hammering a different plank.

-DF

[DwarfFighter]

Oh, sorry. When you said "all the tools they need to instantly solve the mystery, defeat the puzzles, overwhelm the guardians, see through the distractions and so on" I didn't realize you just meant "I don't have a hook for the adventure that makes adventuring more logical than casting Greater Restoration."

If it's that kind of thing (not having a hook), I could just make it a curse (so that Remove Curse is needed instead of Greater Restoration, which the players probably won't guess) and add in a secondary threat vector by making the curse contagious and demonstrate that he's already spread out to several others, so that investigating the source is the best way to find a general cure and prevent an epidemic.

The Greater Restoration thing is just a symptom, not the disease. As all GMs will be aware, the high level toolbox is BIG, and the players know how to use them. Handicapping the PCs with countermeasures I feel is something that should be story and level appropriate, as well as abiding by the rules or at least a plan.

It seems unfair to me to introduce as an arbitrary plot element that Greater Restoration *wouldn't* work against *this* curse due to plot reasons, because that would create the impression that when it is otherwise used successfully, it was the *intended* solution to the problem rather than creative decision of the player that paid off. I don't know if that makes sense, but I feel that makes things feel like a railroading situation where there only solutions pre-planned but the GM will work.

I don't feel it is cool to counter the players creative use of the tools at their disposal by arbitrarily ruling that, for example, "No, Greater Restoration doesn't work in this instance!" I'd feel obliged to tell them that it would ruin the plot if they solved it directly in that manner, which would then make them question what other tools they could reliably use.

There is a difference between drawing a line an saying "These are the tools available for the task!" and saying "That tool won't work!" The former is a challenge, the latter is stonewalling.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The basic premise for this thread was to ask for suggestions for when you 1) can't scale things up, 2) don't want to save it for later and 3) the players are assumed to be fine with whatever solution you pick, ref. the OP.
I mean, if the adventure doesn't fit the current circumstances, and you're not going to change either adventure or circumstances, what kind of answer are you expecting?

[DwarfFighter]

I mean, if the adventure doesn't fit the current circumstances, and you're not going to change either adventure or circumstances, what kind of answer are you expecting?
Frankly, it's all about changing the circumstances in order to make the adventure fit, so why even suggest that answer?

-DF

[Kane0]

I have always liked those tools being solutions but not total success solutions.

Like, say for example the party has a Paladin, and the plot involves a plague striking the local population. The Paladin can easily cure one person per level per day using Lay on Hands, but that doesn't necessarily fix the problem.
1) Plagues spread and it could potentially overtake the Paladin's capacity to cure, and the paladin needs to recover his LoH whereas the plague doesn't rest nor stay conveniently near the Paladin
2) Whatever is the source of the plague could still be creating cases unless dealt with
3) Curing people doesn't necessarily stop them from getting infected again, or infecting others

So the party has a very strong tool available to deal with the plague in some way, but still needs to shut down any sources, instigate countermeasures to the spread and find some method of solving the problem permanently. It's like putting out spotfires versus backburning.

Maybe that example was a bit too... current.


Perhaps a mystery that can be easily countered via charms and divinations.
You can make people talk or even just read their minds with magic, but maybe those people don't actually know what you need to know even with their full cooperation.
You can locate objects and scry people, but in order to do so you need to know what you're targeting. That itself could be potentially obfuscated or a red herring.
You can directly ask the powers that be for guidance, but each of those options also have specific failings. Divination only works up to a week ago and answers can be vague, Augury only gives you a positive/negative response with no real detail, Commune gives 3 yes/no answers and the divine proxy still might not know exactly what you want to know, Speak with Dead requires a jawed corpse and is also fallible, etc.

So yes, the PCs having access to things like Zone of Truth and Detect Thoughts can make their job significantly easier, but it doesn't always work exactly as planned without any further complications or unforeseen consequences. Even with all the tools available the PCs can be expected to think and plan; asking the right questions, putting the pieces together right and acting properly on the information gathered. Then once all that is done there is the acting part where the reveal happens, PCs do the confronting and showing evidence or good ol' fashioned vigilante justice or whatever. There is still fun and engagement to be had even if the PCs make short work with a few spell slots of what used to be a lot of back and forth with Charisma and Wisdom checks.

[MaxWilson]

I don't feel it is cool to counter the players creative use of the tools at their disposal by arbitrarily ruling that, for example, "No, Greater Restoration doesn't work in this instance!" I'd feel obliged to tell them that it would ruin the plot if they solved it directly in that manner, which would then make them question what other tools they could reliably use.

What are you talking about? Greater Restoration doesn't work against ANY curses that I can think of. Oh wait, no, it does work vote a Vargouille's curse, but not a Mummy Lord or a werewolf or a rutterkin or a cursed Berserker sword or a Bestow Curse spell.

Besides, it's a two-layered hook specifically so even if they do know Remove Curse and are able to help a specific victim, there's still a hook to keep them interested in finding the source of the Squawk Like A Chicken While Tap Dancing Contagious Curse, or the Compelled To Flirt Contagious Curse, or whatever horrible malady you choose to curse the NPCs with.

[Cikomyr2]

Have the Player create new characters. Have the new character directly hired by the PCs, find a reason why the PCs are too busy to do the quest themselves. Maybe they want to do a diversion, maybe there are actual better priority.

Give the choice to your players that they can maybe pay for more experienced adventurers.

Maybe keep the B-team as backup when the PCs want to run other errands, and be honest with your players about it. There's nothing wrong with a good palate cleanser, having a secondary party of low level can be genuinely fun for players. And also mention that they are so badass the adventure you designed is just not appropriate for their current power level, as they are way too awesome.

I cannot emphasize enough : make sure your players are receptive to the idea, and no sneaking up in them. Maybe make it a fun thing that each player has to submit their B-team PC for an interview to the other A-Team PCs.

B-teams are disposable, they are source of more hooks in the future. Can be used as deus ex machina if the PCs gets trapped or TPKed.

[Veldrenor]

What are you talking about? Greater Restoration doesn't work against ANY curses that I can think of. Oh wait, no, it does work vote a Vargouille's curse, but not a Mummy Lord or a werewolf or a rutterkin or a cursed Berserker sword or a Bestow Curse spell.


Greater Restoration absolutely works on mummy rot or a cursed berserker sword. It doesn't work on the rutterkin because that's not a curse, it's a disease that applies the poisoned condition. As for the werewolf and Bestow Curse, those are places where "specific beats general" makes RAW weird. The 5th level spell that costs 100GP and can end curses can't end these curses because they specifically say that a 3rd level spell with no cost ends them. As to the OP -


They met the NPC, cast Greater Restoration, and there was no need to go digging for clues why he got infected in the first place. The whole revenge plot-line was left unexplored, none of the challenges were encountered.



It seems unfair to me to introduce as an arbitrary plot element that Greater Restoration *wouldn't* work against *this* curse due to plot reasons, because that would create the impression that when it is otherwise used successfully, it was the *intended* solution to the problem rather than creative decision of the player that paid off. I don't know if that makes sense, but I feel that makes things feel like a railroading situation where there only solutions pre-planned but the GM will work.

First, this example doesn't sound like a creative decision of the player that paid off. They used Greater Restoration to solve a problem that it's specifically designed to solve - I wouldn't call using a hammer on a nail or a screwdriver on a screw "creative." You know what is creative? "Hey, that thing that usually works? It didn't work. Now what?"

Second, you're right that it may feel like railroading. Or it may not feel like railroading. It honestly depends on the players. Some players will see their solution fail and think "the DM is railroading us." Other players will see their solution fail and think "That's weird, why didn't that work? There must be something else going on" and dig into the mystery. Unfortunately, you can't really control that reaction. Especially because players lack the perspective you have about the adventure. As a result, they're really bad at telling the difference between railroading and bad ideas/bad plans. Greater Restoration fails to end the curse? It could be that you're railroading the group - you didn't remember that Greater Restoration was a thing and said "no" in order to make the players do what you wanted. It could also be that you aren't railroading the group - there's a magic ritual elsewhere that's maintaining and reinforcing the curse, and the players just didn't know that trying to use Greater Restoration was a bad idea.

If you've got this great idea for an adventure that you're excited to run, run it. If you know that some spell or ability that the players have will crush it and make it unfun, come up with a reason for why that spell/ability won't work. It's up to you to set the initial conditions of the test. It's up to the players to either find a solution within those conditions, or change the conditions of the test to create a new solution. Your players may get frustrated. That's part of the game; players don't like to come up with ideas. They'll come up with one or two ideas and if those don't work (either because they're bad ideas or because the players rolled poorly), they'll get frustrated and give up. Keep them moving. I had this happen in a session a few months ago: the paladin was trying to get into a fancy party, but no one thought to look up the local customs or etiquette in the weeks leading up to said party. So when he got to the front door he discovered that the guard wouldn't let him pass as long as he was armored. To get past the guard, first he tried persuasion and rolled poorly. Then he tried intimidation and rolled poorly. The player threw up his hands and said "what am I supposed to do?! Sit out the session while I walk all the way back to the inn?" I told him "It's my job to create the problems, not solve them. You want to get into the party but this guard is blocking the front door. Persuasion and intimidation didn't work, so what else did you think of?" He calmed down, thought for a moment, and changed the conditions of the test: he went looking for another way in. He ended up taking the place of a caterer and sneaking his armor into the party inside a cask of ale.

[Segev]

If there is a revenge plot afoot, using Greater Restoration only solves this one instance. Does the villain just give up? Of course not! He strikes again, with a new ploy that is not so easily thwarted! Or at least not thwarted the same way. Two or three times saving the same guy from bad fates should get the PCs looking into what is going on.

[Ashe]

What are you talking about? Greater Restoration doesn't work against ANY curses that I can think of. Oh wait, no, it does work vote a Vargouille's curse, but not a Mummy Lord or a werewolf or a rutterkin or a cursed Berserker sword or a Bestow Curse spell.


You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect. You can reduce the target's exhaustion level by one, or end one of the following effects on the target:
• One effect that charmed or petrified the target
• One curse, including the target's attunement to a cursed magic item
• Any reduction to one of the target's ability scores
• One effect reducing the target's hit point maximum

Emphasis my own.

[Amnestic]

I have always liked those tools being solutions but not total success solutions.

Like, say for example the party has a Paladin, and the plot involves a plague striking the local population. The Paladin can easily cure one person per level per day using Lay on Hands, but that doesn't necessarily fix the problem.
1) Plagues spread and it could potentially overtake the Paladin's capacity to cure, and the paladin needs to recover his LoH whereas the plague doesn't rest nor stay conveniently near the Paladin
2) Whatever is the source of the plague could still be creating cases unless dealt with
3) Curing people doesn't necessarily stop them from getting infected again, or infecting others

So the party has a very strong tool available to deal with the plague in some way, but still needs to shut down any sources, instigate countermeasures to the spread and find some method of solving the problem permanently. It's like putting out spotfires versus backburning.

Maybe that example was a bit too... current.

This actually gets touched on in the Pathfinder AP Curse of the Crimson Throne which has an epidemic/plague adventure in it, which I thought was neat:


"Page 138 of the DMG presents a way to determine how many characters of each class reside in a city. According to this method, the average population of a large city like Korvosa includes 3 12th-level clerics, 6 6th-level clerics, 12 3rd-level clerics, and 24 1st-level clerics. Of these clerics, only nine are of high enough level to cast remove disease. Even including the average of 24 paladins—of which there are only three of a high enough level to possess the remove disease ability—and disorganized numbers of rangers, druids, and visiting NPCs with access to healing magic, this is still less than 0.1 percent of the city’s population. With far more victims contracting blood veil every day, it’s easy to see how the city’s curative magics are quickly overwhelmed, even if every healer in the city were casting the maximum possible number of remove disease spells each day. To a certain extent, wands and potions and scrolls can bolster these numbers, but only as long as supplies hold out. When faced with a plague as virulent as blood veil, magic alone is not enough to save a city."


Though the numbers would differ, the same basic thought would apply to 5e. While the party and any NPC healers might be able to cure a few people every day, a full blown epidemic is going to quickly grow beyond them (especially since people can get reinfected!).