Create Undead, Lesser

[Shinoskay]

If you were going to make, or approve, a lesser version of create undead... how would you want it to look?

I am planning to incorporate juju zombies and want to make create undead accessible from a lower level. The best way to do this is with magic research for a lesser version of create undead.

I have some thoughts as well and plan to post them shortly.

It can also be a greater version of Flesh puppet

The aim is for a level 4 spell

School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric/oracle 4, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4; Domain death 4, evil 4

CASTING

Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (a clay pot filled with grave dirt and an onyx gem worth at least 100 gp per HD of the undead to be created)

EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one corpse
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION

A slightly more potent spell than animate dead, this evil spell allows you to infuse a dead body with negative energy to create more powerful sorts of undead; Ghouls, Hollow Helms, and any from the Create undead spell with a caster level requirement of 14 or lower.

Relevant mechanics:

Spirit Vessels (Su): You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you. When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.

Bonus Spells: create undead (as a 5th-level spell; juju zombies only; see right) (10th)

Create undead 14 caster level and below list:

11th (or lower) Ghoul
11th (or lower) Hollow helm Corpse must be wearing suit of heavy armor
11th+ Huecuva 1 Corpse of a cleric (preferably an evil cleric)
11th+ Crawling hand Severed hand of a Medium or smaller humanoid
11th+ Juju zombie4 Enervation or energy drain
11th+ Skeletal champion4 Enervation or energy drain
12th-14th Ghast, festrog 2
12th+ Draugr
12th+ Guardian phantom armor Corpse must be wearing suit of heavy armor
13th Attic whisperer Crushing despair, fear, corpse of a humanoid child
14th+ Blast shadow 3
14th+ Crawling hand (giant) Enlarge person, severed hand of a Large or larger humanoid
14th+ Wight Enervation

[unseenmage]

Not sure about lesser create undead, I'm pretty sure Animate Dead has that niche covered to be honest.

For examples here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514107-PF-Lists-of-Undead-Creation-and-Creatable-Undead&p=21669408#post21669408) I'd put together listing as many undead control options as I could find in PF.
Juju zombies are already pretty player accessible from what I remember.

[Shinoskay]

the fundamental difference is that animate undead tends to be pre programmed mindless undead and create undead tends to be undead with some intelligence.

[noob]

the fundamental difference is that animate undead tends to be pre programmed mindless undead and create undead tends to be undead with some intelligence.

The other fundamental difference is that create undead does not grant you control(unlike animate dead) so a "lesser" create undead would not grant control either.
Or you could call it "greater animate dead" it works too.
Regardless you must specify it counts toward the control cap of animate dead if it grants control else it will have its own separate control cap and just from being learned increase massively the controlled undead count.

A bunch of the undead you placed in this list are already in the purview of create undead and are among the strongests it provides. A general rule is that a lower level spell should not replicate specifically listed effects of higher level spells(unless those replicated effects are the low level spells themselves) especially if the spell is mechanically stronger (Here your spell grants control which means that for the same created minion it is way stronger than create undead)

For example skeletal champions are very strong undead and here you directly gain control on top of creating it then it is ridiculously stronger than most of what you can do with create undead (because with create undead when you make a skeletal champion it can then right after try to kill you unless you find another way to control it and succeed).

Furthermore your spell makes create undead useless at level 14: one level after you get it because you picked all the good level 14 and lower undead.

[Shinoskay]

The other fundamental difference is that create undead does not grant you control(unlike animate dead) so a "lesser" create undead would not grant control either.
Or you could call it "greater animate dead" it works too.
Regardless you must specify it counts toward the control cap of animate dead if it grants control else it will have its own separate control cap and just from being learned increase massively the controlled undead count.

Create undead makes intelligent undead, it makes sense that they must then be subjugated. I'm fine with the spell functioning like create undead where there is no inherent control.



A bunch of the undead you placed in this list are already in the purview of create undead and are among the strongests it provides.


By what standard? I used only lower level options



(Here your spell grants control which means that for the same created minion it is way stronger than create undead)


Where is it granting control?



For example skeletal champions are very strong undead and here you directly gain control on top of creating it


Where is it granting control?



Furthermore your spell makes create undead useless at level 14: one level after you get it because you picked all the good level 14 and lower undead.
[/QUOTE]

there are a lot of ways to increase caster level, most level 14 casters should have a caster level of at least 15 if not 16 or even 18. not even including temporary cl buffs.

I can probably cut the list down to level 12 cl creations, this only really cuts out wights, I just felt mummies where the real power house of the create undead list, as well as dullahans and all those beefy big undeads. but 12 wont remove skeleton champions (or zombie lords).