Prestidigitation and Tools

[Segev]

One of the effects is a nonmagical trinket that can fit in your hand that lasts until the end of your next turn. Could you conjure a usable tool with this?

A pen? Pencil?
A screw driver?
A lockpick, shim, or other single thieves' tool?

What else might you be able to conjure and use that isnt just a visual aid?

[Sandeman]

I think it is a very creative way of using a cantrip and as a GM I would allow all those things.

[OvisCaedo]

A pen or pencil probably wouldn't work too well, since I'd imagine the ink/lead/graphite/whatever would disappear along with the implement itself. Though perhaps if the other person didn't know any better, you could try to find SOME use for this. Producing a pen, signing something, and then quickly closing it before they can see that the signature has vanished. But the timing window and need to cast make this... probably not practical!

[Cicciograna]

For what is worth, the 3rd Edition version of the spell included the clause that the created tools were brittle and crude, so barely useful.

If I were to adjudicate this, however, i would probably allow for pen and pencil, and probably also screwdriver and lockpick, with the ruling, however, that whatever check the tool is used for is rolled with disadvantage.

[Unoriginal]

One of the effects is a nonmagical trinket that can fit in your hand that lasts until the end of your next turn. Could you conjure a usable tool with this?

My personal ruling is that you can't. Specifically, the "usable" part. Same way you can produce a small item that looks made of gold but without any value, or a small item that looks like a weapon but you can't stab anything with it, you could produce a small item that looks like a pen, but without the functionality.

[Ogun]

I agree, the objects are supposed to lack any real use.
Even in 3rd edition,the best thing I came up with was using the object creation and flavoring together to make delicious zero calorie treats....

[Segev]

I ask about this because 3e did call out "fragile" and useless, while 5e just says "a trinket that can fit in your hand." And it doesn't say it's illusory or anything, so why a real, short-lived trinket if it's not supposed to have some value to its solidity?

That said, I understand contrary rulings. I think the biggest potential abuse is an Arcane Trickster using prestidigitation to get around having his thieves' tools taken from him.

[EggKookoo]

Use is subjective. Is a trinket useful if you use it to beguile someone?

I would say the trinket or item can be useful, but not mechanically so. So you can make a small knife and even stab someone with it. It just deals 0 HP.

[Segev]

Use is subjective. Is a trinket useful if you use it to beguile someone?

I would say the trinket or item can be useful, but not mechanically so. So you can make a small knife and even stab someone with it. It just deals 0 HP.

CAN you use a trinket that exists for ~6 seconds to beguile somebody? Especially if you just chanted a spell right in front of them before it appeared?

[EggKookoo]

CAN you use a trinket that exists for ~6 seconds to beguile somebody? Especially if you just chanted a spell right in front of them before it appeared?

Hypothetically? Of course. Is it likely..?

But you could use a sharp object to annoy or distract someone by poking them with it in six seconds. Technically the knife "works" in the sense that the pointy end jabbed flesh. It might even draw a drop of blood. What it can't do is cause damage in a mechanical sense (HP loss).

[Segev]

Hypothetically? Of course. Is it likely..?

But you could use a sharp object to annoy or distract someone by poking them with it in six seconds. Technically the knife "works" in the sense that the pointy end jabbed flesh. It might even draw a drop of blood. What it can't do is cause damage in a mechanical sense (HP loss).

I suppose my question is: "Why can't it?" The RAW are silent either way, and as a DM you're free to rule however you like. But: why rule this way? I'm not even arguing you shouldn't. I just investigating the thought process. Why should the trinket be so limited if the RAW don't say it is? And, for those who think it should be able to be a tool or a (small) weapon, why should it? Is there a better reason than "because the spell doesn't say it can't?"

[BoxANT]

I have used it to make a magnifying glass for advantage on investigation.

copy a map (mark) for later use, lasts an hour but just re-mark it as needed.

as for more generic tool usage, a very generous DM may allow you to make a lock pick, but it would be difficult to pick a lock in 6 seconds

[Toadkiller]

I would absolutely allow the use of a conjured tool for something. They should have really made the duration 1 minute (or even an hour to align with the other effects) and I will likely modify it that way next time I run a game. An arcane trickster *should* be able to conjure a lock pick if they have the cantrip. Because that’s kind of cool.

(I don’t think the way to stop rules abuse is to limit cool. It’s to tell the player they need to play nice, on those occasions when they aren’t already.)

[Cicciograna]

That said, I understand contrary rulings. I think the biggest potential abuse is an Arcane Trickster using prestidigitation to get around having his thieves' tools taken from him.

I think this is outside the scope of the spell. A set of thieves' tools contain a lot of stuff, including...


...a small file, a set of lock picks, a small mirror mounted on a metal handle, a set of narrow-bladed scissors, and a pair of pliers.

With Prestidigitation you create one nonmagical trinket. True, the text says that you can cast the spell multiple times and have up to three non-instantaneous effect active...but there's the "lasts until the end of your next turn" clause that effectively means that you can have only one trinket per time. I'd say that:

the scope of the spell doesn't give sufficient finesse to recreate the picks and tools of the right size;
I'm not a real expert on ockpicking, but I think that you need at least two of them to pick a lock (a tensor and the actual pick to act on the pins inside the lock).

So there's that. You can probably conjure a coarse item that can be identified as a lock pick; but then, it would be insufficient to actually pick a lock, and certainly could not duplicate a full set of thieves' tools.

[Segev]

I think this is outside the scope of the spell. A set of thieves' tools contain a lot of stuff, including...



With Prestidigitation you create one nonmagical trinket. True, the text says that you can cast the spell multiple times and have up to three non-instantaneous effect active...but there's the "lasts until the end of your next turn" clause that effectively means that you can have only one trinket per time. I'd say that:

the scope of the spell doesn't give sufficient finesse to recreate the picks and tools of the right size;
I'm not a real expert on ockpicking, but I think that you need at least two of them to pick a lock (a tensor and the actual pick to act on the pins inside the lock).

So there's that. You can probably conjure a coarse item that can be identified as a lock pick; but then, it would be insufficient to actually pick a lock, and certainly could not duplicate a full set of thieves' tools.

Sure, a set of thieves' tools has all of that. But a single tool for a single task could be one trinket. As you say, you could even cast it twice if you need two of them (as for lockpicking). And nowhere does it say the trinkets are "crude." Now, again, I can understand and see argument that you can't make useful tools with it. Mostly, I think that centers around the definition of "trinket." But it is, I think, important to not insert limitations that aren't there.

Now, when you say you think conjuring something a thief needs to make an ability check is beyond the scope of the spell, are you only speaking of the idea that a complete set of thieves' tools is more than one item, or are you speaking more generally that creating a tool - such as one might have a tool proficiency in - is outside the scope of the spell, even if the tool can fit in one hand? Is a tool automatically not a trinket?

[Cicciograna]

Sure, a set of thieves' tools has all of that. But a single tool for a single task could be one trinket. As you say, you could even cast it twice if you need two of them (as for lockpicking). And nowhere does it say the trinkets are "crude." Now, again, I can understand and see argument that you can't make useful tools with it. Mostly, I think that centers around the definition of "trinket." But it is, I think, important to not insert limitations that aren't there.

Now, when you say you think conjuring something a thief needs to make an ability check is beyond the scope of the spell, are you only speaking of the idea that a complete set of thieves' tools is more than one item, or are you speaking more generally that creating a tool - such as one might have a tool proficiency in - is outside the scope of the spell, even if the tool can fit in one hand? Is a tool automatically not a trinket?

Oh no, sorry, I was considering specifically the thieves' tool when I wrote my reply, my bad. As I said in a previous comment, I would probably allow for the use for a check, although maybe with disadvantage.

[CapnWildefyr]

I'd allow it, but might apply some limits, depending. For example, you can make a pen but bring your own ink. I'd allow a pencil but not let it write because it would have to leave part of itself behind, or the marks would vanish after the 6 seconds are up. I'd allow lockpicks, I mean, why not? The real problem is can you pick a lock as a bonus action? Because, you know, you just used your action casting prestidigitation. (Away from books right now, not sure if all rogue options get that but I don't think so? Is it just the thief?)

Small mirror, magnifying glass, bolt, dice, flint or steel, hair brush, flowers... just no rabbits, that's a different spell. :smallwink:

But the cool thing of the spell is exactly being able to conjure little things like that, to clean your clothes, start fires in the rain, etc. I'd even allow characters to use it to 'take a bath,' -- if you can dirty or clean cloth, why not your body too? Just do one body part at a time.

[UnintensifiedFa]

One of the effects is a nonmagical trinket that can fit in your hand that lasts until the end of your next turn. Could you conjure a usable tool with this?

A pen? Pencil?
A screw driver?
A lockpick, shim, or other single thieves' tool?

What else might you be able to conjure and use that isn't just a visual aid?

If it's an element of a toolset, I'd require proficiency with that toolset to make it. It's not necessarily about being able to make it, it's knowing how the tool works and which tools (in the toolset) you might need to accomplish a task. If it's an implement anyone can use, I have no problem allowing anyone to make it.

The main thing to worry about with this kind of creation spell is replicating things that cost substantial amounts of money, but toolsets probably are okay as they don't tend to be amazingly expensive.

[Segev]

I'd allow it, but might apply some limits, depending. For example, you can make a pen but bring your own ink. I'd allow a pencil but not let it write because it would have to leave part of itself behind, or the marks would vanish after the 6 seconds are up. I'd allow lockpicks, I mean, why not? The real problem is can you pick a lock as a bonus action? Because, you know, you just used your action casting prestidigitation. (Away from books right now, not sure if all rogue options get that but I don't think so? Is it just the thief?)5e prestidigitation (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Prestidigitation#content) actually has the trinket last until the end of your next turn, so you could do anything you could do as a bonus action or as an action before the trinket vanished.


Small mirror, magnifying glass, bolt, dice, flint or steel, hair brush, flowers... just no rabbits, that's a different spell. :smallwink:

But the cool thing of the spell is exactly being able to conjure little things like that, to clean your clothes, start fires in the rain, etc. I'd even allow characters to use it to 'take a bath,' -- if you can dirty or clean cloth, why not your body too? Just do one body part at a time.The cleaning use is the most common, I've found. Conjuring stuff is almost always forgotten about.


If it's an element of a toolset, I'd require proficiency with that toolset to make it. It's not necessarily about being able to make it, it's knowing how the tool works and which tools (in the toolset) you might need to accomplish a task. If it's an implement anyone can use, I have no problem allowing anyone to make it.

The main thing to worry about with this kind of creation spell is replicating things that cost substantial amounts of money, but toolsets probably are okay as they don't tend to be amazingly expensive.
I could see that. "Sure, you can conjure the tool, but do you know which tool to conjure?"

[CapnWildefyr]

5e prestidigitation (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Prestidigitation#content) actually has the trinket last until the end of your next turn, so you could do anything you could do as a bonus action or as an action before the trinket vanished.

Missed that, didn't have it in front of me, thanks.


The cleaning use is the most common, I've found.

Now you're making me want to roll up a Gnome wizard/detective named Drebbin, just so I can ask, "Isn't that right, Mr Poopy-Pants?" :smallbiggrin:

[lall]

Spellcasting foci and bars of soap are handy.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

5e prestidigitation (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Prestidigitation#content) actually has the trinket last until the end of your next turn, so you could do anything you could do as a bonus action or as an action before the trinket vanished.

The cleaning use is the most common, I've found. Conjuring stuff is almost always forgotten about.


I could see that. "Sure, you can conjure the tool, but do you know which tool to conjure?"

I see more use for the taste and temperature changes.
Want your class of water to feel like warm tea?
No problem.
Want that piece of plant to taste line cake?
No problem.
What your water to taste and look like rum?
The only problem is that you are not going to get drunk.

I also saw some use of it in sabotage.
Someone need to find marked stones?
The marks are gone.

You can also use it to write massage quickly.
Who need pen when you have a spell to do it for you?