OOTS #1235 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[EmperorSarda]

How does anyone live like that?

We don't. We distract ourselves the best we can from those thoughts.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Not even trying to talk to Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy I see.

[mjasghar]

Thanks Rich

[RMS Oceanic]

Never seen that face before :smallsmile:

[UnintensifiedFa]

Ooh, I love this!

Honestly after those previous two strips (which were good, but also very heavy) this is kind of a nice break.

Elan never ceases to be endearing (as always), and Haley proves herself as one of the strongest characters alive (osquip head lifting is a real sport right?)

And Belkar coming in with a surprisingly accurate prediction (if a bit tainted by his perspective).

[Psepha]

"...and the ensuing meal was excellent"

Oh that got a loud laugh out of me :biggrin:

[Zhorn]

Never seen that face before :smallsmile:

Loved it, feels like a peanuts strip with that face.

Very much enjoyed each character's responses to Elan.

[EmperorSarda]

Also, I can't help think but wonder how difficult it would be to try and peel potatoes with a greatsword.

[danielxcutter]

"...and the ensuing meal was excellent"

Oh that got a loud laugh out of me :biggrin:

Well, Belkar does have levels in Profession(gourmet chef).

[Jayrius]

I can relate to Elan's thougts more than I like to admit... And I'm not sure how to feel about that. :smalleek:

[Yxylu]

He’s exhausted all the humanoid conversationalists, but I bet he could entertain himself thinking with Blackwing.

[Reboot]

Wait, why isn't Haley sitting on the OTHER side, facing inward, if she wants to be ready for Xykon & co? We know from when Roy shoved his head through that the portal is double-sided in that respect (i.e., you can see in toward the dungeon), and it would give her more than "a moment's notice".


Not even trying to talk to Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy I see.

I don't think Scruffy is even in the bond...but yeah, I'm sure he could find some drama to bond with Blackwing over...

[Edreyn]

Finally something really funny after all that seriosness!

[mjasghar]

So does the sword also give a +5 circumstance bonus to Profession (culinary)?

[UnintensifiedFa]

I don't think Scruffy is even in the bond...but yeah, I'm sure he could find some drama to bond with Blackwing over...

Could a creature that doesn't know any languages still communicate under a telepathic bond? Or would it just by Mr. Scruffy Meowing?

[danielxcutter]

I can relate to Elan's thougts more than I like to admit... And I'm not sure how to feel about that. :smalleek:

I get where he's coming from, but I think I'd manage for a bit longer than that.

Also "sharp as a bag of wet chalk" doesn't mean "always wrong".


I don't think Scruffy is even in the bond...but yeah, I'm sure he could find some drama to bond with Blackwing over...

I wonder what the others would hear if Mr. Scruffy was in the bond?

[Last_Riot]

Also, I can't help think but wonder how difficult it would be to try and peel potatoes with a greatsword.

Presumably with the potatoes close to the table's edge, so that the hilt doesn't hit the table, and with a large enough table so that the tip of the sword can rest on it while you chop at the potatoes with a guillotine motion using the edge of the blade close to the hilt.

[Schroeswald]

Great strip, very funny, very in character for everyone.

[Robots]

"How does anyone live like this?!?"

Eh, you get used to it sometimes, Elan.

This strip was cute. (To be honest, I thought there was going to be a punchline involving everyone else being like "Hey Durkon, Roy, we can hear your ultra-private conversation because we're all hooked up to V's telepathy thought phone line" or whatever.)

[elros]

I feel bad for Elan, he is living the extroverts nightmare!

[Roselily2006]

I'm glad we can all enjoy the period of idle conversation before The Debate drifts over to this thread like a cloud of annoyance and repeated arguments.
But maybe I'm being pessimistic.

[DavidSh]

Presumably with the potatoes close to the table's edge, so that the hilt doesn't hit the table, and with a large enough table so that the tip of the sword can rest on it while you chop at the potatoes with a guillotine motion using the edge of the blade close to the hilt.
I think I would keep the sword fixed, and move the potato instead, if I were peeling them. But I don't peel potatoes any more, as long as they are a smooth-skinned variety that is easy to wash clean.

[dancrilis]

That was nice - something a little lighter I think was needed.

Edit: Agreed that he should have probably tried Blackwing.

[Crusher]

Absolutely perfect amuse bouche after the last few strips.

I agree that Elan made a mistake not at least trying to chat with Blackwing. I'd think those two would get along really well.

[LtPowers]

... in which we learn that the spell does indeed allow for private communications if the participants so desire.


Powers &8^]

[Fyraltari]

Sweet! A breather after some heavy stuff. Elan is adorable.

There's a typo, though: V says "equivilent" instead of "equivalent".



And Belkar coming in with a surprisingly accurate prediction (if a bit tainted by his perspective).
Belkar has always had a surprisingly good read of people and what makes them tick. Even Roy acknowledges that he should have listened to him last book.

Wait, why isn't Haley sitting on the OTHER side, facing inward, if she wants to be ready for Xykon & co? We know from when Roy shoved his head through that the portal is double-sided in that respect (i.e., you can see in toward the dungeon), and it would give her more than "a moment's notice".
The party couldn't see her, then so they'd be surprised too.

And even if she would have time to move back with them before the ambush, she'd spend a ling time isolated from the others... In a dungeon.

They've had a whole book titled after the one thing you never do in a dungeon.

[drazen]

"How does anyone live like this?!?" :elan:

Usually by slowly going insane, Elan. But hopefully eventually turning into one of the happy kinds (http://https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-06-13)! :smallcool:

[Sir_Norbert]

Quite a funny strip. I don't have much to say about it.

[Corian]

Is it me, or do I get a vibe that the giant may also be commenting on his endeavour to communicate his thoughts through the comic, and the occasionally harsh reception thereto?
Or at the very least the endeavour of artistic expression in general.

[DaFlipp]

Also, I can't help think but wonder how difficult it would be to try and peel potatoes with a greatsword.

Only answering this because I pondered this myself and came up with a potential solution: Hold the greatsword still, move the potato against it, instead of vice-versa.

EDIT: Alas, potato-ninja'd.

[Precure]

Do you think that Elan's position is in some way reflective of Rich Burlew's own luminations about sharing his thoughts about certain issues?

[pendell]

"Feeling guilty about not being perfect enough." -- Heh. Exactly, Belkar. Exactly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Psyren]

Uh hello Elan, talk to Blackwing, I'm sure he's craving a social outlet just as much as you are.


Not even trying to talk to Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy I see.

Mr Scruffy isn't "in the network," animal companions are too low Int for telepathic bond.


"...and the ensuing meal was excellent"

Oh that got a loud laugh out of me :biggrin:

Was the potato-sword thing a past strip that I'm not remembering? Or just an unseen noodle incident?

[Last_Riot]

I think I would keep the sword fixed, and move the potato instead, if I were peeling them. But I don't peel potatoes any more, as long as they are a smooth-skinned variety that is easy to wash clean.

This is what I meant by the guillotine motion. You could move the sword a little, but it would mostly remain with the tip rested at the same location, in order to avoid having to lift the blade's entire weight, so you'd mostly be moving the potatoes and not swinging the blade left and right too much.

[Jayrius]

Also "sharp as a bag of wet chalk" doesn't mean "always wrong".


I never heard that expression but I already like it. In Germany we say " as smart as 100 meter of farm path". All paths lead somewhere, some just lead to Nowhere. :smallbiggrin:

[snowblizz]

Do you think that Elan's position is in some way reflective of Rich Burlew's own luminations about sharing his thoughts about certain issues?
No because Rich don't read these boards much for precisely that reason (and many others am sure).

If a strip happens to answer something the people are discussing that's just something he was thinking of already or people are seeing what's not necessary there.

[Ionathus]

Hah! Me too, Elan. Me too.

Nice that V has learned enough manners to at least couch "don't talk to me, it's a waste of my brain time" in almost-acceptable language!

Fun to see the rest of the Order talking about Durkon & Roy's private chat. Maybe a little dig at the "two characters have a long conversation surrounded by other people" convention?

[danielxcutter]

I never heard that expression but I already like it. In Germany we say " as smart as 100 meter of farm path". All paths lead somewhere, some just lead to Nowhere. :smallbiggrin:

Eh, it's mostly a patchwork of this and that.

[Jayrius]

Was the potato-sword thing a past strip that I'm not remembering? Or just an unseen noodle incident?

I'm pretty sure that happened off panel. I also wonder what Belkar would be capable of with that sword? Great things. And probably terrible things. Better not try it...

[UnintensifiedFa]

Was the potato-sword thing a past strip that I'm not remembering? Or just an unseen noodle incident?

Noodle Incident I believe.

On that note, it's interesting to see Elan taking the culinary reigns, given Belkar's apparent propensity for the craft.

I never fancied Elan a cook but I can't say it doesn't suit him. I'd imagine he'd be messy and somewhat childish in his palette, but I think he'd make something good. (After all, who but Elan could appreciated the narrative significance of a grand heroes feast).

[FlawedParadigm]

Of course this probably means the most important part of Roy and Durkon's conversation is happening right now and we're missing out. ;)

[danielxcutter]

Noodle Incident I believe.

On that note, it's interesting to see Elan taking the culinary reigns, given Belkar's apparent propensity for the craft.

I never fancied Elan a cook but I can't say it doesn't suit him. I'd imagine he'd be messy and somewhat childish in his palette, but I think he'd make something good. (After all, who but Elan could appreciated the narrative significance of a grand heroes feast).

Eh, probably Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.

[Ionathus]

But I don't peel potatoes any more

What, uh...what happened? :smalleek:

[Robots]

Eh, probably Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.
...That's actually kind of a cute mental image.

[mjasghar]

What, uh...what happened? :smalleek:

From the post I’m guessing they cook them with skin on

[MReav]

Not even trying to talk to Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy I see.

Well, Mr. Scruffy is a non-sapient being, and he probably still hasn't figured out that Blackwing is.

[Blindfolded Ape]

Eh, probably Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.

Or possibly Belkar trying to see what he could get away with, a la "I need that guy's arm"

[Fyraltari]

Of course this probably means the most important part of Roy and Durkon's conversation is happening right now and we're missing out. ;)

I think this is happening concurrently to the two previous strips. I'm not sure, though. Roy did that pointing motion twice already but he had expressive eyebrows both times.

[Giggling Ghast]

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, but you misspelled ‘equivalent’ in V’s speech bubble, Rich.

[MoonCat]

Oh, this felt like such classic OoTS, I forgot how much I missed this aspect of the comic alongside all the brilliant writing and narrative and character development we get to feast on.

[Precure]

I really doubt that Belkar would be willing to cook for them regularly.

[Ivrytwr]

Just this "HA!"
Very funny. Thanks Giant.

[gatemansgc]

"how does anyone live like this?!?"

elan you're adorable.

also LOL at using the greenhilt sword to peel potatoes. hope it was washed first!

[ti'esar]

This strip suddenly gave me a terrifying vision of Elan discovering social media.

[Dion]

Thank heavens I’m not like Elan. I never have to sit quietly with my own thoughts. I get to argue with people on the internet.

Amd I don’t even have to pay for an argument. People do it for free!

[danielxcutter]

Well he cooked for them at least once, since Haley knew he had proficiency in it

Technically twice; once he cooked the tropical birds for Haley and Celia and once the scorpions that chased Mr. Scruffy.

[locksmith of lo]

and belkar hits it right on the head again! :smallbiggrin:

[UnintensifiedFa]

This strip suddenly gave me a terrifying vision of Elan discovering social media.

You say terrifying, but honestly, I'd love to see a Twitter account that's just an unadulterated stream of Elan's thoughts. I think it could be simultaneously hilarious and very intriguing to see how Elan thinks (even if we already get a lot of his throughs narrated to us (by him of course) in the strip.

Kind of like what Girl Genius did with the Othar Tryggvassen Twitter account. No pressure, but if ever anyone needs an OOTS related project to start...

[Fyraltari]

Well he cooked for them at least once, since Haley knew he had proficiency in it

She knew because he told her in the dragon magazine strips and neither of them know if those are canonical or not.

[The_Weirdo]

"The ensuing meal was excellent"

Aww, look at V, praising Elan's cooking to make him feel better. :smallsmile:


Thank heavens I’m not like Elan. I never have to sit quietly with my own thoughts. I get to argue with people on the internet.

Amd I don’t even have to pay for an argument. People do it for free!

Room 12.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k

[Haluesen]

This comic was nice, me likey. Elan continues to be a favorite


"...and the ensuing meal was excellent"

Oh that got a loud laugh out of me :biggrin:

That got me too, always surprises and delights me when V has something nice or nice-ish to say.


This strip suddenly gave me a terrifying vision of Elan discovering social media.

Or perhaps glorious vision of Elan on social media. Him posting online is something I would actually use social media to see. :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

"The ensuing meal was excellent"

Aww, look at V, praising Elan's cooking to make him feel better. :smallsmile:

I think it's likely that Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking due to having ranks in Profession(gourmet chef).

[The_Weirdo]

I think it's likely that Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking due to having ranks in Profession(gourmet chef).

It's possible, yeah, but it's still a sweet touch for V to mention that.

[Fyraltari]

I just realized that V implied that all Roy brings to the team is his sword.

The sass this man has to live with, I tell you.

[Dr.Zero]

Also, I can't help think but wonder how difficult it would be to try and peel potatoes with a greatsword.

As long as the blade is very sharp (which is to be expected by a +5 sword), you can block the sword between to bench vises and move the potato, using the blade as a giant razor.


Only answering this because I pondered this myself and came up with a potential solution: Hold the greatsword still, move the potato against it, instead of vice-versa.

EDIT: Alas, potato-ninja'd.

Eh, ok. I see this was already replied.

Alternative: moving the sword, but the potato is a giant potato monster.

[danielxcutter]

I just realized that V implied that all Roy brings to the team is his sword.

The sass this man has to live with, I tell you.

To be fair, Roy's hyperspecialized in using it. At least in terms of his build.

[Hotu]

I really like this strip- it harkens back to the days in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Something light and funny to break up the action. It's nice to see after all the drama :smallbiggrin:

[ref]

Elan being Elan. That's always good. Chaotic good, to be precise.

[Bedinsis]

"...and the ensuing meal was excellent"

Oh that got a loud laugh out of me :biggrin:

Me likewise.

[Quercus_Arbor]

Why is Haley holding the mummified head in the air, waiting for the perfect second to drop it? I must have missed the rational for that.
It seems like anybody could pass through the portal in either direction at any time.

[hamishspence]

The head needs to be on the line, to open the portal back. It only lasts 20 seconds, too:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

if they go through without the head on the line, they end up in a tiny dead end:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html


They are waiting for the moment when Xykon returns from the area of the dungeon he's in,


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html


so they can jump out and ambush him:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html

[Fyraltari]

Why is Haley holding the mummified head in the air, waiting for the perfect second to drop it? I must have missed the rational for that.
It seems like anybody could pass through the portal in either direction at any time.

Dropping the head would disarm the trap. This would separate whichever members of Team Evil was in front from those in the back allowing the Order to get the drop on them as well as attack them already battle-weary and at half-strength. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html)

[bunsen_h]

I never fancied Elan a cook but I can't say it doesn't suit him. I'd imagine he'd be messy and somewhat childish in his palette, but I think he'd make something good. (After all, who but Elan could appreciated the narrative significance of a grand heroes feast).

:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"

:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."

:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"

:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them."

[gatemansgc]

This strip suddenly gave me a terrifying vision of Elan discovering social media.

OMG that would be amazing!

[hamishspence]

:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"

:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."

:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"

:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them."
That, or it all took place in the Dungeon of Dorukan when the sword was nonmagical. Elan did say "a long time ago."

[Riftwolf]

I feel like 'feeling guilty for not being perfect' is a great description of how CE sees LG

[danielxcutter]

:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"

:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."

:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"

:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them."

Hah!


OMG that would be amazing!

Agreed very much.


That, or it all took place in the Dungeon of Dorukan when the sword was nonmagical. Elan did say "a long time ago."

I think it's possible that Roy's sword was always magical and the starmetal just made it stronger. Because for real, you think a fighter of his level would just be using a masterwork weapon? His grandfather did fight dragons with it, remember, and dragons have DR/magic.


I feel like 'feeling guilty for not being perfect' is a great description of how CE sees LG

Eh, seems a bit more Neutral than Evil. Note: having Neutral thoughts does not mean said being is Neutral, though I think Belkar's closer to CN than he was at the beginning.

[gatemansgc]

:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"

:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."

:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"

:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them."

that is... exactly how i could see belkar persuading elan to do that!

though as others said, belkar probably did the actual cooking since he has ranks in the chef profession.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Wee can't stay serious for too long

[hamishspence]

I think it's possible that Roy's sword was always magical and the starmetal just made it stronger. Because for real, you think a fighter of his level would just be using a masterwork weapon? His grandfather did fight dragons with it, remember, and dragons have DR/magic.


That could be resolved with "party wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the blade".


The main hint that it went from "nonmagical" to "+5" is here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

[Jayrius]

"Magicae Est Potestas" in the signature



I just looked at your signature and seriously read "Magicae Est Potatoes". Which opens a lot of room for speculation about a former world filled with conscious vegetables and fruits. :smallconfused:

[Nephrahim]

That could be resolved with "party wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the blade".


The main hint that it went from "nonmagical" to "+5" is here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

Huh. You know I always interpreted that as it going from a plus four to plus five, since that would be a 25% increase. T never occurred to me that might indicate going for my 20 to a 25 in d20.

[hamishspence]

It's strongly implied that Xykon destroyed it by casting Shatter on it, and Shatter only works on nonmagical objects:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

[Riftwolf]

It's strongly implied that Xykon destroyed it by casting Shatter on it, and Shatter only works on nonmagical objects:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm

The comic had a massive level jump for Xykon retroactively. Whereas before it was feasible Roy didn't have a magic sword (because they were low level dungeon crawlers), now its more feasible that Xykon has some Superb Shatter epic spell, researched and designed solely to be a git to anyone fighting in melee.

[Hasric]

Elan's face in the last panel looks like he's about to burst with all the thoughts he's holding in.

Couldn't help notice the childlike expression. Its a bit like Belkar when they were hunting for the restrooms in the Dungeon of Dorukan....

Similar pressure. Similar distress.

[arimareiji]

A hearty LOL and applause to the Giant, for the stealth burn on Elan at the end. It seems Wrecan's joke about Veldrina in panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) might be literally true for Elan. <3

[hamishspence]

The comic had a massive level jump for Xykon retroactively. Whereas before it was feasible Roy didn't have a magic sword (because they were low level dungeon crawlers), now its more feasible that Xykon has some Superb Shatter epic spell, researched and designed solely to be a git to anyone fighting in melee.

Xykon may have been jumped up - but the Order hasn't. Roy is still, backstory-wise, a low-level character when he began adventuring, with the sword.

[KorvinStarmast]

Only answering this because I pondered this myself and came up with a potential solution: Hold the greatsword still, move the potato against it, instead of vice-versa. Worked.

The head needs to be on the line, to open the portal back. It only lasts 20 seconds, too:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html
if they go through without the head on the line, they end up in a tiny dead end:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html
They are waiting for the moment when Xykon returns from the area of the dungeon he's in,
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html
so they can jump out and ambush him:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html Thanks for the recap, given how long the digression from the mission (take out Xykon) has been.
:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"
:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."
:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"
:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them." Plausible conversation is plausible. :smallsmile:

Elan's face in the last panel looks like he's about to burst with all the thoughts he's holding in. All two of them?

Scoreboard:
1. V gets 1 point
2. Belkar gets 1 point
3. Haley gets 2 points
4. Minrah gets 1 point
5. Roy and Belkar, no score
6. Elan, no point

Rich can deliver a punch line. ( I particulary like V's in this case)

[bunsen_h]

I just looked at your signature and seriously read "Magicae Est Potatoes". Which opens a lot of room for speculation about a former world filled with conscious vegetables and fruits. :smallconfused:

The possibility of it was raised for this world, in "That's The Spirit" in GGGU. Not just conscious but Evil.

[danielxcutter]

That could be resolved with "party wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the blade".


The main hint that it went from "nonmagical" to "+5" is here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html


Huh. You know I always interpreted that as it going from a plus four to plus five, since that would be a 25% increase. T never occurred to me that might indicate going for my 20 to a 25 in d20.

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.


I just looked at your signature and seriously read "Magicae Est Potatoes". Which opens a lot of room for speculation about a former world filled with conscious vegetables and fruits. :smallconfused:

Hah! We've already made that joke ourselves a few times.


The comic had a massive level jump for Xykon retroactively. Whereas before it was feasible Roy didn't have a magic sword (because they were low level dungeon crawlers), now its more feasible that Xykon has some Superb Shatter epic spell, researched and designed solely to be a git to anyone fighting in melee.

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?


The possibility of it was raised for this world, in "That's The Spirit" in GGGU. Not just conscious but Evil.

...Huh?

[bunsen_h]

The possibility of it was raised for this world, in "That's The Spirit" in GGGU. Not just conscious but Evil.


...Huh?

Death bananas. With little scythes.

[hamishspence]

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?

That can be resolved with "V used the Greater Shadow Conjuration version - which is an illusion spell"


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjurationGreater.htm

V would only need to be 13th level to cast it.

[arimareiji]

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.
Ditto

Hah! We've already made that joke ourselves a few times.
As a Latin nerd the ae/as combo and word order bug me, which is probably why I hadn't noticed Potestas is close to an anagram of Potatoes. But certainly worth notice. (^_^)b

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?
Technically an off-brand borderline-Evil hentai spell, so maybe the spell creator in the Stickverse wrote it to grab even flying critters if they're within reach.

...Huh?
Haven't read it myself, but it sounds like this means that GGGU featured an Evil vegetable.
(Like f'rinstance Brussels sprouts if you ask me, but that could be a genetic taste mutation.)
Edit: Ah, ninjaed, thank you. (^_^)b

[Spartan360]

Belkar and Elan reminding me of why those two are my favorites.


Shame about not seeing the potato part though, could have been a decent cutaway to just add to the moment of levity.

[PontificatusRex]

Dang, major points to Belkar for being exactly right about what Roy and Durkon were thinking.

[Mariele]

What the hell, has Belkar taken a level in Psionic that we don't know about and is altering the spell to his will?

Poor Elan. I feel sorry for him, it's a shame everyone else has to be, well, prepared for a fight. :smallwink:


Loved it, feels like a peanuts strip with that face.

Very much enjoyed each character's responses to Elan.
Hah, you're right! Probably why I liked that face so much.

[hamishspence]

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.


The Giant said at the time that:


Yeah, players I have played with usually try to metagame the plusses on swords by referring to their &quot;precentage increase in accuracy&quot; based on the idea that each +1 on a d20 roll was a 5% increase. So you'll get conversations like:

Bob: Girolous, tell me, how much better than a standard bow is your elven longbow?
Tim: Why, it is 15% better than a nonmagical one, Firion, why do you ask?
Bob: I wish to enchant it further with a spell that will increase its effectiveness to 20% greater accuracy.
Tim: Outstanding!
Bob (to the DM): I cast Greater Magic Weapon for +4 enhancement bonus on Girolous' bow.
DM: Grumble.

If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".

[danielxcutter]

As a Latin nerd the ae/as combo and word order bug me, which is probably why I hadn't noticed Potestas is close to an anagram of Potatoes. But certainly worth notice. (^_^)b

Ah, there's a funny story about that title; the writer of the Artemis Fowl series was apparently not as fluent as Latin. The family motto of the Fowl family is "Aurum Est Potestas", which is grammatically incorrect as you note but is supposed to mean "Gold Is Power".

The title of the fic is an intentional parallel to that; "magic is power". Post-Pacifist Run, Post-The Last Guardian, on a bit of a hiatus but Somnium's got the outline for the next channel finally, probably a bit darker than most post-Pacifist fics.

Apparently it's quite good.

[Kaed]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

[Neoriceisgood]

I can see Roy's sword being excellent for culinary purposes.

[CountDVB]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

I do believe this moment of levity would count as bathos in regards to storytelling. I mean, it is still, as Thor put it, a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Cutting back to others waiting does release the built-up tension and point out the oddity of stuff. Although, I am now curious; the dialogue exchange between V and Elan reveals that Elan once borrowed the Greenhilt sword to peel potatoes, but the way V mentions the meal was excellent, that implies that Elan was the one who cooked the meal. Does this mean Elan knows how to cook well? I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?

[hamishspence]

I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?

Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Class Skills
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

However, Elan's WIS is thought to be abysmal by the rest of his party.

[CountDVB]

Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Class Skills
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

However, Elan's WIS is thought to be abysmal by the rest of his party.

Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ayyy some much needed comic relief! Pun most definitely intended! :smallbiggrin:

[Jayrius]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

While it's true that nothing important for the story happened in this strip, I read it as a analogy to what extroverts like Elan struggle with during a lockdown. Getting your energy from contact with others is quite hard when you can't go out, everybody else is too busy for virtual meetings/ telepathic conversation and you suddenly are alone with yourself. But that is just my interpretation. :smallwink:

edited for additional sentence

[Petrocorus]

*Monty Python video*
I side with Palin here, this is not an argument. :smallbiggrin:


The head needs to be on the line, to open the portal back. It only lasts 20 seconds, too:

What i don't get is why she needs to hold it like this. She could lay it on her lap, that wouldn't make much difference.




Eh, seems a bit more Neutral than Evil. Note: having Neutral thoughts does not mean said being is Neutral, though I think Belkar's closer to CN than he was at the beginning.
Indeed. I do wonder if we'll see his ring of Protection against Evil suddenly stop hurting him. Probably right before the end.


NBITP

May i ask you what NB means in this instance?

[TuringTest]

Ok, this was worth a good chuckle. :smallbiggrin:

I often wonder the opposite, how people like Elan can live with a compelling need to share everything that goes through their heads.




Although, I am now curious; the dialogue exchange between V and Elan reveals that Elan once borrowed the Greenhilt sword to peel potatoes, but the way V mentions the meal was excellent, that implies that Elan was the one who cooked the meal. Does this mean Elan knows how to cook well? I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?


Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.



Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?


There's another likely possibility: that Elan did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.

[pendell]

Is it me, or do I get a vibe that the giant may also be commenting on his endeavour to communicate his thoughts through the comic, and the occasionally harsh reception thereto?
Or at the very least the endeavour of artistic expression in general.

Not really. Each of the party members are reacting "in character". Roy and Durkon have highly developed consciences, so they worry and fret about things and are wont to find fault with themselves. Belkar doesn't care. No one else besides Elan has leisure for any thoughts beyond preparation for their confrontation with an epic-level lich, and Elan's thoughts are not notable for anything save being silly.

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rbetieh]

Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?


Funny thing about Wisdom. It's hard to really imagine it as a stat score, since true Wisdom comes from Experience. Luckily, at least for the Bard class, that is kind of built in. Bards get bonuses to Will save (wisdom based) and bardic knowledge so for that class, above all others Wisdom does come from Experience. For fighters, no matter how hard you hit things, you will still struggle understanding WHY you hit things unless you are a natural.

[toodeep]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

[CountDVB]

Not really. Each of the party members are reacting "in character". Roy and Durkon have highly developed consciences, so they worry and fret about things and are wont to find fault with themselves. Belkar doesn't care. No one else besides Elan has leisure for any thoughts beyond preparation for their confrontation with an epic-level lich, and Elan's thoughts are not notable for anything save being silly.

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah though also Haley could add. Haley did grow up in Greysky City and thus know about the shady stuff of life along with showcasing the stresses of living in a hostile environment and how that shapes you to be distrustful, along with showing how messed up that makes. Elan meanwhile could also note the nature of story elements and how that would work along with his own experiences. After all, he has seen Hinjo be hamstrung by political BS and likely point out that is why the good gods can't just do anything. That and well, how best the story could go.

[Riftwolf]

Just a thought: does the Telepathy spell allow for psychic partitions like this comic suggests? Do participants have to subvocalise towards their targets?

[Mariele]

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

I'm still looking forward to seeing how all of the party members react to this new topic, eventually.

[KorvinStarmast]

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.
He did indeed, thanks to a childish desire to emulate a Vin Diesel movie. Let's take a look at Hanlon's Razor:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
In the dictionary of familiar quotations, Elan's face sits above that entry.

[Quizatzhaderac]

For fighters, no matter how hard you hit things, you will still struggle understanding WHY you hit things unless you are a natural.You hit things because they are moving and you don't want them to be.

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.He knew perfectly well that the castle wouldn't blow up until just after everyone got out.

Or if you're unwilling to accept genre savviness as knowledge, there's no reason to expect the self destruct spell to work as if a mechanical clock was triggered. The spell simply waited for everyone who was trying to flee to get out. Then Elan stopped fleeing and the Dungeon immediately exploded.

[Rhyvurg]

Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

[Robots]

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

I mean, Elan's definitely matured since those days. He's still pretty goofy and childish, but I think he's come a long way from "follow my impulses because it would be cool".

[PontificatusRex]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

You seem to be assuming that there would be an "after". I'm sure the Order is assuming that they have one chance - they defeat Xykon, or they lose and all die. And if that's the case, no one else is coming to stop him so eventually Team Evil would figure everything out regardless.

[Ruck]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

I wouldn't call it a strategic mistake, so much as a risk they are willing to take in order to destroy Xykon. If they win the fight, there's no Team Evil to find the gate.

Oh, right, or I could have just quoted this:


You seem to be assuming that there would be an "after". I'm sure the Order is assuming that they have one chance - they defeat Xykon, or they lose and all die. And if that's the case, no one else is coming to stop him so eventually Team Evil would figure everything out regardless.


Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

Huh?

Never mind, I don't think I should try to parse a calculus where the Chaotic Evil team member is "based."

[Fyraltari]

What i don't get is why she needs to hold it like this. She could lay it on her lap, that wouldn't make much difference.

Because if Team Evil come out in close proximity to one another, she'll have to act fast to split them up.

[toodeep]

You seem to be assuming that there would be an "after". I'm sure the Order is assuming that they have one chance - they defeat Xykon, or they lose and all die. And if that's the case, no one else is coming to stop him so eventually Team Evil would figure everything out regardless.

They know there is a chance that they lose. Doing it this way means that if they lose they also hand the secret of the gate location over to Xykon, whereas, if they just hid outside the door waiting for him to come back out they would get almost the same surprise and yet not reveal to traps hiding the gate. Plus, at this level kills are very difficult to accomplish. There is a nonzero chance that either they or Xykon will escape the fight somehow rather than have a final showdown, and giving him the final secret is dangerous if all you do is drive him off.

[Mike Havran]

It must be a real ordeal for those thoughts, to remain trapped inside Elan's brain. Kinda like being engulfed in a void.

[Ruck]

It must be a real ordeal for those thoughts, to remain trapped inside Elan's brain. Kinda like being engulfed in a void.

Elan's mind is the Astral Plane!

[Jay R]

Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

The gods are who are responsible. That's exactly who Redcloak already wants to lash out at, and it's exactly who Durkon and Roy want to convince Redcloak to help.

Your suggestion is an excellent way to ensure that Redcloak will not help them seal the Snarl's prison.

---

:elan:: How does anyone live like this?"

Elan, we all used to live like that most of the time, before the internet.

---



I wonder what the others would hear if Mr. Scruffy was in the bond?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.png: "When is Haley going to set that down so I can eat it?"

[WanderingMist]

Eh, probably Elan just did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.
Elan's mom is a barmaid. Pretty sure he's probably got at least some cooking skill.

I just realized that V implied that all Roy brings to the team is his sword.

The sass this man has to live with, I tell you.
Well, it is a magical sword that's super effective against undead creatures on occasion, and while V may value Roy's advice, V probably still considers V the smartest person in the room.

:elan: "What can I do to help? Let me help!"

:belkar: *sigh* "How about you peel the potatoes? You can use Roy's sword. I'm sure he won't mind."

:elan: "... Are you sure about that?"

:belkar: "Maybe they're Evil potatoes. In which case that green energy stuff will also cook them."
Roy's sword works better on undead, not Evil. It'd be equally effective against an arch-lich as it would against Xykon.

The comic had a massive level jump for Xykon retroactively. Whereas before it was feasible Roy didn't have a magic sword (because they were low level dungeon crawlers), now its more feasible that Xykon has some Superb Shatter epic spell, researched and designed solely to be a git to anyone fighting in melee.
The sword wasn't magical before the starmetal got added.

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.
Who is this Zykon, and does Xykon know of his existence?


It must be a real ordeal for those thoughts, to remain trapped inside Elan's brain. Kinda like being engulfed in a void.

Elan's mind is the Astral Plane!
Can't believe it's been this many pages and no one's made the obvious connection to when Haley was in cryptogram mode.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan's mind is the Astral Plane!

With Timothy Leary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EXCIWlm1fs)

[Robots]

Roy's sword works better on undead, not Evil. It'd be equally effective against an arch-lich as it would against Xykon.
Well, the potatoes technically aren't "living"... :smalltongue:

[bunsen_h]

Elan's mind is the Astral Plane!

"I've got to concentrate concentrate concentrate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahNAauFgys)..." But that's a different plane disaster.

[DavidSh]

Well, the potatoes technically aren't "living"... :smalltongue:
The potatoes I get from the store are definitely living. If I handle them wrong they will sprout.

[Robots]

The potatoes I get from the store are definitely living. If I handle them wrong they will sprout.

:P Yeah my joke was a little dumb.

[Rrmcklin]

Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

I find it fairly easy to both sympathize with the reasons that bring desperate people to their actions, even while also thinking they must be stopped or corrected. And I'm also capable of separating the acts of individuals from the people suffering at large. None of this strikes me as complicated or illogical.

[nolongeralurker]

Little did Elan know that HE would be the one to experience the light character development!!

[WanderingMist]

The potatoes I get from the store are definitely living. If I handle them wrong they will sprout.

Eh, potatoes will sprout no matter what you do. That's why they're a great food crop. You can just stick one in the ground and voilà, now you're growing potatoes.

[The_Weirdo]

I side with Palin here, this is not an argument. :smallbiggrin:

Yes it is.

[Petrocorus]

Yes it is.
No, it isn't.

[Mastikator]

You say terrifying, but honestly, I'd love to see a Twitter account that's just an unadulterated stream of Elan's thoughts. I think it could be simultaneously hilarious and very intriguing to see how Elan thinks (even if we already get a lot of his throughs narrated to us (by him of course) in the strip.

Kind of like what Girl Genius did with the Othar Tryggvassen Twitter account. No pressure, but if ever anyone needs an OOTS related project to start...

I'm not so worried about Elan posting nonsense on social media, there's tons of that. What there's also a lot of is really mean people getting up in your face. They would eat him alive.

[The_Weirdo]

No, it isn't.

Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Buuuuut I'll stop now lest the next reply is by someone else and in red, rather than in blue. :smallbiggrin:

[Robots]

I'm not so worried about Elan posting nonsense on social media, there's tons of that. What there's also a lot of is really mean people getting up in your face. They would eat him alive.
Man, now I'm imagining Elan getting bullied on social media. I don't know why! I'm making myself upset! :smallfrown:

[Teioh]

Dang, major points to Belkar for being exactly right about what Roy and Durkon were thinking.

And right about how lucky Elan and he were

[arimareiji]

If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".
Thank you, that's about as authoritative (ha) as one can get. (^_^)b


Ah, there's a funny story about that title; the writer of the Artemis Fowl series was apparently not as fluent as Latin. The family motto of the Fowl family is "Aurum Est Potestas", which is grammatically incorrect as you note but is supposed to mean "Gold Is Power".

The title of the fic is an intentional parallel to that; "magic is power". Post-Pacifist Run, Post-The Last Guardian, on a bit of a hiatus but Somnium's got the outline for the next channel finally, probably a bit darker than most post-Pacifist fics.

Apparently it's quite good.
Thank you for indulging my nerditry about a subject almost no one would get. (^_^) But now I'm imagining the Stickverse with its own version of Shinra Power (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Shinra_Electric_Power_Company), to run Redcloak's trains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)... (^_~)


You hit things because they are moving and you don't want them to be.
Well-played.

He knew perfectly well that the castle wouldn't blow up until just after everyone got out.

Or if you're unwilling to accept genre savviness as knowledge, there's no reason to expect the self destruct spell to work as if a mechanical clock was triggered. The spell simply waited for everyone who was trying to flee to get out. Then Elan stopped fleeing and the Dungeon immediately exploded.
For a joke, that's an astonishingly-reasonable explanation. Also well-played. (^_^)b


Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?
That's an extremely-unfortunate choice of words, considering how many people have been expressing it.

Also, as wiser people than I have observed: 1) Figuring out who's wrong does nothing to make it right. 2) War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left. 3) "Hate, it has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet." 4) Evil causes problems for others. Neutral leaves problems for others because they didn't cause them. Good solves problems for others because they're problems, not because they caused them.


It must be a real ordeal for those thoughts, to remain trapped inside Elan's brain. Kinda like being engulfed in a void.
Reminds me of an old joke: "How did so-and-so's brain cells die?" ~ "Lonely, for the most part."


:elan:: How does anyone live like this?"

Elan, we all used to live like that most of the time, before the internet.
This deserves a drum sting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHYiyv68q2o). :smallamused:b


Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Buuuuut I'll stop now lest the next reply is by someone else and in red, rather than in blue. :smallbiggrin:
I'm afraid to ask... I know blue means sarcasm or at least non-seriousness, what does red mean?


Man, now I'm imagining Elan getting bullied on social media. I don't know why! I'm making myself upset! :smallfrown:
But that's what social media is best at facilitating! (^_~)

[DavidSh]

I'm afraid to ask... I know blue means sarcasm or at least non-seriousness, what does red mean?


Red text is moderators acting in their official capacity. It's usually better to avoid that.

[Petrocorus]

Good solves problems for others because they're problems, not because they caused them.

No one has disagreed with this point.



I'm afraid to ask... I know blue means sarcasm or at least non-seriousness, what does red mean?
Red is for the moderators.

[Rrmcklin]

No one has disagreed with this point.

I'd say they have, even if not intentionally. A lot of people seem to be taking umbridge with Durkon's and Roy's line of thinking because they're extrapolating that anyone who doesn't agree is supposed to be a "bad" person. I don't think that's the intention, to say the average person is "bad" just that they (Durkon and Roy) strive to be better.

That, in itself, has been a pretty reoccurring theme throughout the story I think, and it's a bit puzzling and/or telling that it's apparently only now causing so much fuss.

[arimareiji]

Red text is moderators acting in their official capacity. It's usually better to avoid that.
Thank you, I don't know how I spaced that.


No one has disagreed with this point.
Not per se, but quite a few people have made arguments that the goblins' lot should never improve -- unless the only ones to be so much as inconvenienced in the process are those who can be proven to have committed explicit wrongs against them. Which is kindofa Catch-22, given the inevitable segue to "such as people who are long-dead". And the fact that even those who are living and don't have plausible deniability, are unlikely to have even a tiny fraction of the resources needed.

Red is for the moderators.
Thank you also.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ha! I think Elan can stand to benefit quite a bit from some quietude, especially considering some of the reflection that was happening earlier. Belkar reacted pretty much as I'd expect him to. I think there should be more discussion about Minrah's great reaction to Elan's fairly invasive questioning. :smallbiggrin:


This strip suddenly gave me a terrifying vision of Elan discovering social media.

Elan would absolutely be one of those Facebook users c. 2010 that posts just about everything that pops into their minds.

[elros]

When the Giant publishes the book about this story arc, I would love a couple of pages showing how Elan handles the alone time. Not only would it be entertaining, but it would probably give me ideas of how I can handle waiting.

[Ruck]

I'd say they have, even if not intentionally. A lot of people seem to be taking umbridge with Durkon's and Roy's line of thinking because they're extrapolating that anyone who doesn't agree is supposed to be a "bad" person. I don't think that's the intention, to say the average person is "bad" just that they (Durkon and Roy) strive to be better.

That, in itself, has been a pretty reoccurring theme throughout the story I think, and it's a bit puzzling and/or telling that it's apparently only now causing so much fuss.

Also telling how many people who complained vociferously about the last two strips haven't posted at all on this one. A more cynical person might think they don't care about the story and just wanted to complain about something they saw as paralleling real-life issues that they don't want to think about.

[Petrocorus]

I'd say they have, even if not intentionally. A lot of people seem to be taking umbridge with Durkon's and Roy's line of thinking because they're extrapolating that anyone who doesn't agree is supposed to be a "bad" person. I don't think that's the intention, to say the average person is "bad" just that they (Durkon and Roy) strive to be better.

That, in itself, has been a pretty reoccurring theme throughout the story I think, and it's a bit puzzling and/or telling that it's apparently only now causing so much fuss.



Not per se, but quite a few people have made arguments that the goblins' lot should never improve -- unless the only ones to be so much as inconvenienced in the process are those who can be proven to have committed explicit wrongs against them. Which is kindofa Catch-22, given the inevitable segue to "such as people who are long-dead". And the fact that even those who are living and don't have plausible deniability, are unlikely to have even a tiny fraction of the resources needed.

Thank you also.

The thing is that many people (me included) didn't read Durkon's and Roy's point as being:
"We must solve this problem for others because they're problems, not because we caused them."
But rather as being:
"We must solve this problem for others because we benefit from it, not because we caused them."
Or being:
"We must solve this problem for others because we don't have it, not because we caused them."
And this is what people have been debating.

I don't want to open this debate again, i'm just pointing out that "We must solve this problem because it needs to be solved." is not what people were debating. No one had an issue with Roy saying "We must stop Xykon because someone has to stop him" in previous strips.

[Spartan360]

Do I count?

[arimareiji]

The thing is that many people (me included) didn't read Durkon's and Roy's point as being:
"We must solve this problem for others because they're problems, not because we caused them."
But rather as being:
"We must solve this problem for others because we benefit from it, not because we caused them."
Or being:
"We must solve this problem for others because we don't have it, not because we caused them."
And this is what people have been debating.

I don't want to open this debate again, i'm just pointing out that "We must solve this problem because it needs to be solved." is not what people were debating. No one had an issue with Roy saying "We must stop Xykon because someone has to stop him".

For clarity, I was referring to numerous other threads where it's happened. Tbh, I didn't have this thread in mind at all (although that doesn't mean someone hasn't, and I missed reading it or it just didn't register).

[bunsen_h]

Elan would absolutely be one of those Facebook users c. 2010 that posts just about everything that pops into their minds.

I'm so glad that that kind of thing is solidly in the past.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm so glad that that kind of thing is solidly in the past.

Unlike, say, Redcloak's niece.

[Wizard_Lizard]

May i ask you what NB means in this instance?

Sure! In this case it's referring to Non-binary :smallbiggrin:

[Petrocorus]

For clarity, I was referring to numerous other threads where it's happened. Tbh, I didn't have this thread in mind at all (although that doesn't mean someone hasn't, and I missed reading it or it just didn't register).
OK, i understand your point better then.
I was under the impression we were still talking about the recent strips.


Unlike, say, Redcloak's niece.
Redcloak's Niece is love.
Redcloak's Niece is life.

[Mariele]

Redcloak's Niece is love.
Redcloak's Niece is life.
Redcloak's Niece is laughter.
You forgot the Holy Trinity (that no stereotypical white suburban home is complete with) there, pal.

I'm sure you're all glad I'm being kept awake and barely coherent by this horrendous toothache so I can continue to crappost on this forum.

[Fincher]

As someone who wasn't a fan of the last two strips (and really, there aren't many strips in the comic I don't like), I thought this one was pretty much a perfect pivot away from that discussion. Elan and Belkar make everything better.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm sure you're all glad I'm being kept awake and barely coherent by this horrendous toothache so I can continue to crappost on this forum.

Oh geez, you okay? Definitely call a doctor or something if that keeps up.

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak's Niece is laughter.
You forgot the Holy Trinity (that no stereotypical white suburban home is complete with) there, pal.

I'm sure you're all glad I'm being kept awake and barely coherent by this horrendous toothache so I can continue to crappost on this forum.

Get well soon. *Hugs, if you allow*

[Rhyvurg]

Huh?

Never mind, I don't think I should try to parse a calculus where the Chaotic Evil team member is "based."

Because he's the only one talking sense.


The gods are who are responsible. That's exactly who Redcloak already wants to lash out at, and it's exactly who Durkon and Roy want to convince Redcloak to help.

Your suggestion is an excellent way to ensure that Redcloak will not help them seal the Snarl's prison.


Completely wrong. Because it isn't "gods," it's just one god. Fenrir made that decision all on his own, Redcloak however wants to hold completely innocent people responsible for that choice and make them suffer for it.


I find it fairly easy to both sympathize with the reasons that bring desperate people to their actions, even while also thinking they must be stopped or corrected. And I'm also capable of separating the acts of individuals from the people suffering at large. None of this strikes me as complicated or illogical.

They deserve no sympathy. If a man burns down his neighbor's house, that neighbor doesn't get to drive to the next street and burn down someone else's house because he's mad about it. The goblins have been lashing out at the wrong people. They had no way of knowing, but evil acts are evil acts. There is no subjective good and evil in D&D, good and evil are objectively defined cosmic forces. No grey areas exist.



That's an extremely-unfortunate choice of words, considering how many people have been expressing it.

Also, as wiser people than I have observed: 1) Figuring out who's wrong does nothing to make it right. 2) War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left. 3) "Hate, it has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet." 4) Evil causes problems for others. Neutral leaves problems for others because they didn't cause them. Good solves problems for others because they're problems, not because they caused them.


Knowing who's responsible gives you the opportunity to redeem yourself of the evil you've done. What Roy and Durkon are suggesting is they're partially responsible for the goblins' situation, because they benefitted from it. That's not how that works, they're not obligated to do anything. The first two panels of the previous comic, Roy called it "passing the buck." It's not. Roy's just feeling guilt over something he absolutely should not be. Tell the goblins which specific god screwed them over, if their very next act is not to leave Azure City, they're irredeemable villains and deserve the sword.

[Yirggzmb]

Elan is me at 3am, when I really wanna spout off whatever nonsense is going through my head. But everyone's asleep, and even random posts on social media get no attention.

[Fyraltari]

Elan is me at 3am, when I really wanna spout off whatever nonsense is going through my head. But everyone's asleep, and even random posts on social media get no attention.

If you're awake at 2am you should just go to bed. Nothing good ever happens at 2am.

Unless you've got an actual reason to be awake at 2am like working the night shift or a condition that keeps you awake or something.


This goes even more for 3am.

[arimareiji]

If you're awake at 2am you should just go to bed. Nothing good ever happens at 2am.
*coughs halfway to purple* Ahem. To quote Shojo, "you haven't been eating at the right tables". (^_~)
Although I have to admit you may have circumvented my objection, by not phrasing it as "go to sleep".
More seriously, as a general rule this is overwhelmingly true if you add "in Internet discussion forums".

[Athas]

The Giant said at the time that:



If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".

isn't it 27.62% increase?

[warmachine]

Vaarsuvuis's response made me laugh out loud.

[hamishspence]

Knowing who's responsible gives you the opportunity to redeem yourself of the evil you've done. What Roy and Durkon are suggesting is they're partially responsible for the goblins' situation, because they benefitted from it. That's not how that works, they're not obligated to do anything.

One can be "not in any way responsible for a bad thing" and still be responsible for fixing it because one benefits from that bad thing.

Specifically, when one has bought stolen goods, and then found out that they are stolen.

You are not in any way responsible for the theft, but you are obliged to hand the stolen goods over to law enforcement, rather than keep them.


good and evil are objectively defined cosmic forces. No grey areas exist.

Even BOVD, one of the most "black and white morality" 3e splatbooks, admits that there are grey areas.

The point of Celia's big speech at the Order's trial, is that nuance and exception exist:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html

[Fyraltari]

isn't it 27.62% increase?
It's five additional percent from the base value, not from each successive value.


Because each side of a fair 20-sided die has a 5% chance of coming up. So a +1 bonus is 5% more chance you'll suceed at whatever it is you're trying to do.

[Ruck]

One can be "not in any way responsible for a bad thing" and still be responsible for fixing it because one benefits from that bad thing.

Specifically, when one has bought stolen goods, and then found out that they are stolen.

You are not in any way responsible for the theft, but you are obliged to hand the stolen goods over to law enforcement, rather than keep them.

I feel like some people are forgetting that Roy and Durkon are Lawful Good characters with, respectively, a strong sense of responsibility and duty. If they become aware of an injustice, of course they're going to consider what they can do to fix it.


Even BOVD, one of the most "black and white morality" 3e splatbooks, admits that there are grey areas.

The point of Celia's big speech at the Order's trial, is that nuance and exception exist:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html

If no grey areas existed, what would even be the point of having a Deva review your life (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), since it would be black-and-white anyway?

[Werbaer]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance.
It looks like that.

Remember strip #418 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html) about Hinjos junk? Looked like a simple gag filler strip when it was published.
But was used to provide the information why there was a single boat still waiting in the harbour much later, at the end of the third book.

Maybe it gets important later that the Telepathic Bond spell, although cast on multiple targets, allows several different 1-on-1 conversations at once.

Or maybe it's just to switch away from Roy and Durkon for a moment, so that they might have divised a plan in the meantime without us readers listening.

[Czhorat]

It looks like that.

Remember strip #418 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html) about Hinjos junk? Looked like a simple gag filler strip when it was published.
But was used to provide the information why there was a single boat still waiting in the harbour much later, at the end of the third book.

Maybe it gets important later that the Telepathic Bond spell, although cast on multiple targets, allows several different 1-on-1 conversations at once.

Or maybe it's just to switch away from Roy and Durkon for a moment, so that they might have divised a plan in the meantime without us readers listening.

IT's also a weird way to read a comic; if you had the book completed you'd not stop to analyze each page on its own. Once this arc is written and read as a single piece it will probably read better, or at least differently.

The serial nature of publication one page at a time means that we keep getting slightly unnatural stopping points (and that each page has to end with a bit of a conclusion).

[danielxcutter]

I mean, if everything was black-and-white, what would Neutral be for?

[Worldsong]

I mean, if everything was black-and-white, what would Neutral be for?

Characters who only want to fix problems they themselves caused.

[Vikenlugaid]

What Roy and Durkon are suggesting is they're partially responsible for the goblins' situation, because they benefitted from it. That's not how that works, they're not obligated to do anything. The first two panels of the previous comic, Roy called it "passing the buck." It's not. Roy's just feeling guilt over something he absolutely should not be.
That maybe works for a neutral, but Roy and Durkon are good, not just good, maybe the "goodest" characters in the comic. They both have sacrificed their own lifes to protect others and that wasn't their "duty" at all, they just did it couse they are that good. We are not talking about "normal" people who just live their lifes on their own, being "more or less good", Roy and Durkon are real Heros of Goodness.

And yes, if you are that good, you feel guilty when you realize that you are not doing "your best".


It's five additional percent from the base value, not from each successive value.


Because each side of a fair 20-sided die has a 5% chance of coming up. So a +1 bonus is 5% more chance you'll suceed at whatever it is you're trying to do.

But that is "logic" if we are talking about the attack bonus... but that blacksmith is talking about the damage bonus increasing 25% too, and if the greatsword damage is 2d6, a +5 is almost a +50% not a +25%. So i also think is talking about "+4 -> +5" couse then that is a +25% in both attack and dmg bonus, and not "non magical -> +5" couse then the bonus in damage has no sense.

[Roselily2006]

I'm afraid to ask... I know blue means sarcasm or at least non-seriousness, what does red mean?


I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?

[KorvinStarmast]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. This is not the first strip that has done this. And I doubt it will be the last. Rich spends a lot of time with character "inner monologues" using various artifices (V's is with Blackwing, Roy just talks, Haley had her alter egos and now Elan, and so on)

Characters who only want to fix problems they themselves caused. Which leads us in this direction:
Hi, I'm chaotic neutral. I'm part of the problem, not part of the solution. :smallcool:

[Worldsong]

Which leads us in this direction:
Hi, I'm chaotic neutral. I'm part of the problem, not part of the solution. :smallcool:

Oh, sure, blame Chaos. Next you'll tell me the Warp is a bad place to be.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, sure, blame Chaos. Next you'll tell me the Warp is a bad place to be.

HERETIC! (*smashes Exterminatus button*)

[Shining Wrath]

Alas, poor Elan. To have a deep thought he'd have to fall down a well.

[Worldsong]

HERETIC! (*smashes Exterminatus button*)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI

[Fyraltari]

I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?

Red is for moderator action. Everything else is whatever you want to itnto be.

Blue is quite popular to denote sarcasm. There is no other consensus I am aware of. Except for white, which to hide text for later.

I used purple once to "autoscrub", that is to say, to remove something I wrote, that in hindsight I doubt was rules-compliant but I didn't want to use red, not beind a moderator.

[hroþila]

*scrubbed*

[pendell]

Red is for moderator action. Everything else is whatever you want to itnto be.

Blue is quite popular to denote sarcasm. There is no other consensus I am aware of. Except for white, which to hide text for later.

I used purple once to "autoscrub", that is to say, to remove something I wrote, that in hindsight I doubt was rules-compliant but I didn't want to use red, not beind a moderator.

Red is also used in-story for fiends. Is there something the mods are trying to tell us?

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Also telling how many people who complained vociferously about the last two strips haven't posted at all on this one. A more cynical person might think they don't care about the story and just wanted to complain about something they saw as paralleling real-life issues that they don't want to think about.

A less cynical person would posit this is pretty much a humor strip and doesn't impinge on issues important to people, so they have nothing to say. I've commented less on this one because I didn't find that much interesting to say. Unlike Roy and Durkon's dialog, which spawned many pages of fascinating discussion (and got multiple threads locked repeatedly), there's really not much to:

:Haley: I'm holding a rat skull.
:Vaarsuvius: I'm preparing for battle.
:Elan: I'm bored.
:Belkar: I'm making a cynical observation about Roy and Durkon
Which, incidentally, I view as true as far as it goes: Roy and Durkon DO over-think things. But just because Roy and Durkon sometimes try to be good doesn't mean Belkar's any kind of role model.


I've said it before; this comic is about characters and their development NOT about propagandizing for real world views. Though Rich certainly has them and isn't shy about sharing those. Besides, even if Rich did want to make the comic all about certain issues , we've still had two full pages of serious dialog so it's now time for some comic relief. This IS supposed to be a humor comic, after all.

I admit I sometimes miss the zaniness of the snack food trio and Fruit Pie the Sorcerer. I know Rich has grown as a writer and as an adult human being, but I was already an adult human being when I started reading these stories. I don't need a comic to talk to me about serious issues because I deal with serious issues in the real world all the time. I come to comics for light-hearted fun and escape from the daily grind.

Which isn't to say I want Rich to shut up and be a clown; that isn't his style or where he's going as a person. But the comic used to be more funny and less serious.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

*scrubbed*

[Feruk]

I come to comics for light-hearted fun and escape from the daily grind.

Which isn't to say I want Rich to shut up and be a clown; that isn't his style or where he's going as a person. But the comic used to be more funny and less serious.


Such escapism is viewed by the Giant as explicitly bad, so I doubt we'll get that kind of thing again. The only worth in fantasy [maybe in all, not got the quote to hand] writing is in how it's applicable to the real world, as per WoG. Still doesn't stop someone like me not being invested and enjoying, though :) That and the overreliance on print-only do impact my enjoyment a bit, honestly, but it's still fun enough, and yes, he has to sell print stuff to make a living - that's how the world works, unfortunately.

[danielxcutter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI

Ah, I see you too are a man of culture.

[pendell]

Such escapism is viewed by the Giant as explicitly bad, so I doubt we'll get that kind of thing again. The only worth in fantasy [maybe in all, not got the quote to hand] writing is in how it's applicable to the real world, as per WoG. Still doesn't stop someone like me not being invested and enjoying, though :) That and the overreliance on print-only do impact my enjoyment a bit, honestly, but it's still fun enough, and yes, he has to sell print stuff to make a living - that's how the world works, unfortunately.

Rich has one view, Tolkien has another (https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-say-%E2%80%9CFantasy-is-escapist-and-that-is-its-glory-If-a-soldier-is-imprisoned-by-the-enemy-dont-we-consider-it-his-duty-to-escape-And-if-so-where)



I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which “Escape”is now so often used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give no warrant at all. In what the misusers are fond of calling Real Life, Escape is evidently as a rule very practical, and may even be heroic. In real life it is difficult to blame it, unless it fails; in criticism it would seem to be the worse the better it succeeds. Evidently we are faced by a misuse of words, and also by a confusion of thought. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter. Just so a Party-spokesman might have labelled departure from the misery of the [dictator]'s or any other [tyranny] and even criticism of it as treachery. In the same way these critics, to make confusion worse, and so to bring into contempt their opponents, stick their label of scorn not only on to Desertion, but on to real Escape, and what are often its companions, Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt. Not only do they confound the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem to prefer the acquiescence of the “quisling” to the resistance of the patriot. To such thinking you have only to say “the land you loved is doomed” to excuse any treachery, indeed to glorify it.


I have stripped some of the politically loaded terms for the sake of board-friendliness, but the point remains the same. Tolkien saw validity in fantasy and escapism in its own right, not just to the extent it is a reflection of the world around us. The 'air of Numenor', used aright, can inspire people to greater efforts to make a just world, one like the world of the fairy story, rather than the reverse.

I daresay that, even though Tolkien created escapist fiction, his work did indeed have applicability to the real world. If nothing else, Rich would have a harder time writing this strip if he (and the rest of D&D for that matter) were not relentlessly borrowing or parodying Tolkien's work.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

Such escapism is viewed by the Giant as explicitly bad, so I doubt we'll get that kind of thing again. The only worth in fantasy [maybe in all, not got the quote to hand] writing is in how it's applicable to the real world, as per WoG. Still doesn't stop someone like me not being invested and enjoying, though :) That and the overreliance on print-only do impact my enjoyment a bit, honestly, but it's still fun enough, and yes, he has to sell print stuff to make a living - that's how the world works, unfortunately.

Oh, see, complaining about the lack of debate? Here a quote which can start a debate. :D

The most value in writing, should be the will of the readers to read the writing.
It is usually associated with pleasure (comedy, romance), but sometimes with other feelings (fighting for the good cause, and something).

This is true even for the... I lack the knowledge of the term, in english... commited writings, maybe?
They are not about being applicable to real world. Applicability has nothing to do with a fantasy story. If one wants something applicable to the real world, uses real world logic on real world facts, not story-logic on complicated and not always so-closely-and-stricly-related metaphors.

Commited writings are, like any other kind of writing, related to the feelings they can create in the reader. Mostly pleasure for the already convinced readers who will find something in the story to "prove" their own opinion.

And, if you as writer are lucky and really really good, maybe convincing someone who didn't agree with your vision of the world, initially. But convincing them not because applicability in real world, but because you moved some other feeling that created a chain reaction in their soul (which here means: "reactive, emotional prone and suggestible mind").

[Ionathus]

Rich has one view, Tolkien has another (https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-say-%E2%80%9CFantasy-is-escapist-and-that-is-its-glory-If-a-soldier-is-imprisoned-by-the-enemy-dont-we-consider-it-his-duty-to-escape-And-if-so-where)



I have stripped some of the politically loaded terms for the sake of board-friendliness, but the point remains the same. Tolkien saw validity in fantasy and escapism in its own right, not just to the extent it is a reflection of the world around us. The 'air of Numenor', used aright, can inspire people to greater efforts to make a just world, one like the world of the fairy story, rather than the reverse.

I daresay that, even though Tolkien created escapist fiction, his work did indeed have applicability to the real world. If nothing else, Rich would have a harder time writing this strip if he (and the rest of D&D for that matter) were not relentlessly borrowing or parodying Tolkien's work.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I really like that Tolkien quote, and it brings up some good points I hadn't thought about! The jail metaphor is effective as well. I do think it's important to distinguish Tolkien starts by assuming the prisoner will attempt to leave first, and then if that's impossible will attempt to think of nicer thoughts. I don't think that's wholly incompatible with Rich's quote about "fiction is important because of what it tells us about the real world" – it kind of feels like two people arriving at a similar conclusion through different angles: that it's important to improve the world you live in, whether through telling aspirational/instructional stories or physically working to change it.

The quote also explores the interesting dynamic between "escapism" vs. "desertion" vs. "rebellion": if I write a story where everything is happy and peachy, does that mean I'm shutting my ears to the problems in my real world? Or does it mean I'm fighting against them in some intangible way, or trying to unpack them for myself and others?

For the record, put me down as also not completely agreeing with Rich's "petty escapism" comment – I just don't think it's that easily simplified (as my blathering, meandering response here can attest).

[pendell]

Oh, see, complaining about the lack of debate? Here a quote which can start a debate. :D

The most value in writing, should be the will of the readers to read the writing.
It is usually associated with pleasure (comedy, romance), but sometimes with other feelings (fighting for the good cause, and something).

This is true even for the... I lack the knowledge of the term, in english... commited writings, maybe?
They are not about being applicable to real world. Applicability has nothing to do with a fantasy story. If one wants something applicable to the real world, uses real world logic on real world facts, not story-logic on complicated and not always so-closely-and-stricly-related metaphors.

Commited writings are, like any other kind of writing, related to the feelings they can create in the reader. Mostly pleasure for the already convinced readers who will find something in the story to "prove" their own opinion.

And, if you as writer are lucky and really really good, maybe convincing someone who didn't agree with your vision of the world, initially. But convincing them not because applicability in real world, but because you moved some other feeling that created a chain reaction in their soul (which here means: "reactive, emotional prone and suggestible mind").

I'm sorry, but I don't know what 'committed writings' are. It's not an English term. Your profile says you're from Italy. What is the term in your native language? Maybe I can do some googling and find out what the correct English analog is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what 'committed writings' are. It's not an English term. Your profile says you're from Italy. What is the term in your native language? Maybe I can do some googling and find out what the correct English analog is.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Eh, I tried google, but I suppose it betrayed me. "Scritti impegnati". Which is short for "writings talking about social, politics, and similar issues, which try to explain to the reader what are the problems with the world and, maybe, how to make it a better place. According to the writer's opinions, of course."

[Fyraltari]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what 'committed writings' are. It's not an English term.

There exists a similar term. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committed_literature)

[pendell]

There exists a similar term. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committed_literature)

Perhaps it is a word, then, simply one I hadn't encountered before. And I've been studying English for four decades. But I suppose there's something to learn every day!

The analog I am familiar with is Utopian literature (https://www.masterclass.com/articles/what-is-utopian-literature#:~:text=Utopian%20fiction%20is%20a%20st yle,works%20are%20free%20from%20conflict.), in which the author posits an ideal world or country (the word literally means "no place") as a way of critiquing the real world. It's opposite, Dystopia, posits a crapsack world in which all the worst parts of this world are exaggerated , again, for the purpose of Critique. See: Warhammer 40K, Handmaid's Tale.

There's also satire, in which the real world is parodied both for the sake of humor and for the sake of critiquing the real world. Gulliver's Travels is one of the greats in English literature for this phenomenon.

All of these are similar to 'committed writings'. I've just never heard of committed writing referred to as a class. Normally we talk about one of the subclasses: Utopia, Dystopia , Satire.

I would classify OOTS as satire ; specifically, it's poking fun both at RPGs and the way they are often played. I'm not sure it qualifies as a 'committed writing' because, according to Fyaltari's link, a work must have status in society in order to be 'committed writing' and the status of a self-aware stick figure comic is not high :smallamused:. Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings might qualify from the perspective of status within the gaming community, OOTS doesn't, yet.

It's still a great story with good points to make about the world and great character development besides. That's why I've been reading it for fifteen years, after all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

There exists a similar term. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committed_literature)

Ah, I might being in the need to make my excuses to google, then.



The analog I am familiar with is Utopian literature (https://www.masterclass.com/articles/what-is-utopian-literature#:~:text=Utopian%20fiction%20is%20a%20st yle,works%20are%20free%20from%20conflict.), in which the author posits an ideal world or country (the word literally means "no place") as a way of critiquing the real world. It's opposite, Dystopia, posits a crapsack world in which all the worst parts of this world are exaggerated , again, for the purpose of Critique. See: Warhammer 40K, Handmaid's Tale.

There's also satire, in which the real world is parodied both for the sake of humor and for the sake of critiquing the real world. Gulliver's Travels is one of the greats in English literature for this phenomenon.

All of these are similar to 'committed writings'. I've just never heard of committed writing referred to as a class. Normally we talk about one of the subclasses: Utopia, Dystopia , Satire.

I would classify OOTS as satire ; specifically, it's poking fun both at RPGs and the way they are often played. I'm not sure it qualifies as a 'committed writing' because, according to Fyaltari's link, a work must have status in society in order to be 'committed writing' and the status of a self-aware stick figure comic is not high :smallamused:. Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings might qualify from the perspective of status within the gaming community, OOTS doesn't, yet.

It's still a great story with good points to make about the world and great character development besides. That's why I've been reading it for fifteen years, after all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yes, utopias and satires can be example. But there is even something more down to earth. Eh, a bland example of that in cinema -mixed with comedy- is "Brassed off". Or, without comedy, "Philadelphia".

[Rrmcklin]

That maybe works for a neutral, but Roy and Durkon are good, not just good, maybe the "goodest" characters in the comic. They both have sacrificed their own lifes to protect others and that wasn't their "duty" at all, they just did it couse they are that good. We are not talking about "normal" people who just live their lifes on their own, being "more or less good", Roy and Durkon are real Heros of Goodness.

And yes, if you are that good, you feel guilty when you realize that you are not doing "your best".

Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it has to do with the issues of some people thinking "good people make for bad/boring writing" issues. I think it starts from the reasonable position that perfect characters are boring and such in order to be compelling or relatable they need flaws, but then a lot of people act like flawed people still can't be good or altruistic, and thus comes the complaint about it not making sense that characters like Roy and Durkon, would be thinking of this situation like this despite it fitting with literally everything we know about them.

This isn't the only time it's happened either. I remember when it was revealed that Sigdi gave up the chance to get her arm and husband back to save five strangers how it was "stupid" and "not relatable".

[arimareiji]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

Would green be for playing devil's Redcloak's advocate?

[bunsen_h]

But that is "logic" if we are talking about the attack bonus... but that blacksmith is talking about the damage bonus increasing 25% too, and if the greatsword damage is 2d6, a +5 is almost a +50% not a +25%. So i also think is talking about "+4 -> +5" couse then that is a +25% in both attack and dmg bonus, and not "non magical -> +5" couse then the bonus in damage has no sense.

The exact words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) were that there would be a "corresponding enhancement to damage", not "equal" or "equivalent" much less "25%". "Corresponding" is a pretty loose term.

It never occurred to me that that conversation could imply anything other than that the sword was non-magical before. It was described as "everday [sic] terrestrial steel", which I suppose doesn't necessarily mean that it was non-magical. If a magical weapon is broken and then repaired, does it regain/retain its magic?

Roy blows off the smith's attempt to explain how the "deadly green energy" effect could be counteracted. This suggests (weakly) that Xykon might find a way to protect himself, and also raises the possibility that Roy might find himself in a situation of not wanting to have the effect go off, but not knowing how to exert that control. Something along the lines of wanting to subdue Xykon without destroying him, maybe? -- I'm not familiar with the details of subduing opponents even as they apply to older versions of D&D, let alone in 3.5e.

[Jasdoif]

The exact words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) were that there would be a "corresponding enhancement to damage", not "equal" or "equivalent" much less "25%". "Corresponding" is a pretty loose term.

It never occurred to me that that conversation could imply anything other than that the sword was non-magical before. It was described as "everday [sic] terrestrial steel", which I suppose doesn't necessarily mean that it was non-magical.Indeed. I believe "a 25% increase in accuracy" was used to reflect "+5" because "a 25 percentage point increase in accuracy in optimally relevant situations" is even less clear to read, and the enhancement to damage corresponded to the "+5".


If a magical weapon is broken and then repaired, does it regain/retain its magic?No. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#damagingMagicItems)

Damaging Magic Items
....
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

[Fyraltari]

Perhaps it is a word, then, simply one I hadn't encountered before. And I've been studying English for four decades. But I suppose there's something to learn every day!

The analog I am familiar with is Utopian literature (https://www.masterclass.com/articles/what-is-utopian-literature#:~:text=Utopian%20fiction%20is%20a%20st yle,works%20are%20free%20from%20conflict.), in which the author posits an ideal world or country (the word literally means "no place") as a way of critiquing the real world. It's opposite, Dystopia, posits a crapsack world in which all the worst parts of this world are exaggerated , again, for the purpose of Critique. See: Warhammer 40K, Handmaid's Tale.

There's also satire, in which the real world is parodied both for the sake of humor and for the sake of critiquing the real world. Gulliver's Travels is one of the greats in English literature for this phenomenon.

All of these are similar to 'committed writings'. I've just never heard of committed writing referred to as a class. Normally we talk about one of the subclasses: Utopia, Dystopia , Satire.

My understanding of committed literature is that it is more relevant to talk about committed authors, people whose body of work intend to bring an issue to the front of the public debate. To say, there's something to correct there. It's not a genre of fiction, it's about the intent of the authors. Realist, grounded works can be committed literature, in fact that's what the majority of this literature is. Charles Dickens and MArk Twain are two examples of English-language committed authors that come to mind, yet neither The adventures of Huckleberry Finn nor Oliver Twist fit in either genres you listed.


Fyaltari's
Fy-r-altari.

[bunsen_h]

No. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#damagingMagicItems)


Hmm. Which could mean that it's "a 25% increase compared to what you'd get if I just reforged it, since even if it was magical before it was broken, that's gone now". So we don't seem to have any solid evidence regarding the sword's magical status before it was broken, apart from the implications of Horace (a high-level fighter) having used it against dragons.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Although I have to admit you may have circumvented my objection, by not phrasing it as "go to sleep".More innocently than "go to bed :smallwink:", but less innocently than "go to bed :yawn:", there are dances that are only done after 2 AM.

isn't it 27.62% increase?percentage point increase. D&D mechanics don't allow a sword to be 5 percent more accurate, because that would be need to depend on the AC of the target and the other attack bonuses.

[Ruck]

A less cynical person would posit this is pretty much a humor strip and doesn't impinge on issues important to people, so they have nothing to say.

Given the nature of the complaints about the strip and that the people who were making them barely if at all commented on the actual comic before or since-- or in any way that wasn't to voice their complaints that, essentially, "How dare you make me think about things! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)", I'm comfortable with the more cynical view.


Rich has one view, Tolkien has another (https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-say-%E2%80%9CFantasy-is-escapist-and-that-is-its-glory-If-a-soldier-is-imprisoned-by-the-enemy-dont-we-consider-it-his-duty-to-escape-And-if-so-where)

Rich is writing this story, Tolkien is not.

[Doug Lampert]

Hmm. Which could mean that it's "a 25% increase compared to what you'd get if I just reforged it, since even if it was magical before it was broken, that's gone now". So we don't seem to have any solid evidence regarding the sword's magical status before it was broken, apart from the implications of Horace (a high-level fighter) having used it against dragons.

And the fact that Shatter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) worked on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), and shatter doesn't do anything to magical objects.

I agree, that the most likely explanation is "magical sword prior to breaking, and Rich simply forgot that shatter doesn't work on magical weapons," but in fact, the only actual in-comic evidence we have indicates non-magical.

[WanderingMist]

Knowing who's responsible gives you the opportunity to redeem yourself of the evil you've done. What Roy and Durkon are suggesting is they're partially responsible for the goblins' situation, because they benefitted from it. That's not how that works, they're not obligated to do anything. The first two panels of the previous comic, Roy called it "passing the buck." It's not. Roy's just feeling guilt over something he absolutely should not be. Tell the goblins which specific god screwed them over, if their very next act is not to leave Azure City, they're irredeemable villains and deserve the sword.

You are implying that every single goblin living in Azure City was part of the conquering army which is emphatically untrue. You are also assuming that Azure City wasn't originally a goblin settlement that humans invaded and took over long in the past, in which case, by your own logic, the humans should be driven from it and be considered irredeemable for refusing to leave conquered lands.

[arimareiji]

You are implying that every single goblin living in Azure City was part of the conquering army which is emphatically untrue. You are also assuming that Azure City wasn't originally a goblin settlement that humans invaded and took over long in the past, in which case, by your own logic, the humans should be driven from it and be considered irredeemable for refusing to leave conquered lands.

It shouldn't. But sometimes, it astonishes me how quickly people can transition from "Bad things happened to goblins in the past, so what get over it that's how things are now" to "And that's why the goblins in Gobbotopia Azure City should be put to the sword posthaste, because they have something that used to belong to humans".

[bunsen_h]

And the fact that Shatter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) worked on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), and shatter doesn't do anything to magical objects.

I agree, that the most likely explanation is "magical sword prior to breaking, and Rich simply forgot that shatter doesn't work on magical weapons," but in fact, the only actual in-comic evidence we have indicates non-magical.

I'd argue that in that strip, "shatter!" was a sound effect. Xykon hit the sword with a blast of negative energy, but the spell isn't identified, unlike in earlier panels in which he calls "Magic Missile".

[Jasdoif]

And the fact that Shatter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) worked on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), and shatter doesn't do anything to magical objects.

I agree, that the most likely explanation is "magical sword prior to breaking, and Rich simply forgot that shatter doesn't work on magical weapons," but in fact, the only actual in-comic evidence we have indicates non-magical.To be fair, the spell description could be cleaner; like repeating "a single solid, nonmagical object" from the lede sentence instead of using "a single solid object" where it describes the single-target effect.

[Ginasius]

Also, I can't help think but wonder how difficult it would be to try and peel potatoes with a greatsword.

May be they were greatpotatoes.

Ba Dum Tsssssss

[Robots]

may be they were greatpotatoes.

Ba dum tsssssss

AAAARGH! The pun! It BUUUUURNS ME!!!

[j_scheibel]

I really wanted Banjo the Clown to make an appearance at the end. ah well, there is still time :)

[Petrocorus]

I really wanted Banjo the Clown to make an appearance at the end. ah well, there is still time :)

Given OotS cosmology, Giggles could actually end up becoming a real god at some point.

[F.Harr]

Going from deep philosophical musings to undercutting those musings to hilarious character growth. That's how I like my OotS. :)

[tanonx]

Given the nature of the complaints about the strip and that the people who were making them barely if at all commented on the actual comic before or since-- or in any way that wasn't to voice their complaints that, essentially, "How dare you make me think about things! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)", I'm comfortable with the more cynical view.

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

[Ruck]

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

I also think most of the complaints are not really regarding how the strips will fit into the final story and in book format; but still, it's only been a few pages of talking. By my count, we're 46 strips into the final book? Overall it's still been pretty action-heavy for how early in the book we are, although a more action-packed final book is also to be expected, given that everything is headed to the series climax.

[mjasghar]

I mean, if everything was black-and-white, what would Neutral be for?

And there’s literally 3 different LG planes depending on wether you’re more lawful or more good yet you’re still LG.

[Taevyr]

Roy's greatsword was obviously magical before Xykon destroyed it: it's the one thing that made it a great sword

[mjasghar]

Roy's greatsword was obviously magical before Xykon destroyed it: it's the one thing that made it a great sword

Reminds me of a certain movie with Samuel l Jackson

[Dr.Zero]

To be fair, the spell description could be cleaner; like repeating "a single solid, nonmagical object" from the lede sentence instead of using "a single solid object" where it describes the single-target effect.

Alternative 1: shatter works differently from the rules (and we have plenty of examples)

Alternative 2: an epic researched version of shatter, which can shatter even magical objects and is generally more powerful. I'm not sure that would be the most useful use of an epic spell for a sorcerer, but I'd say it depends on how much you manage to make it stronger than basic version: if one can shatter all magical weapons of the heroes with a single area spell, for example, it wouldn't be bad at all.

"We quested for years, but now we collected the Infinite+1 Sword of killing The Evil Lich, the Hammer which works almost like Thor's one, the Daggers of Psionic Kickassing and the Baubles of More Arcane Power. Be ready for your doom, your end is nigh!"

"I've two words to say about this: Superb Shatter!"

[danielxcutter]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.

[arimareiji]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.

Touché. I could actually see him naming it the "Ha Ha Ha Eff You" spell. (^_~)

[Ionathus]

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

People always seem quick to assume that Rich is actively reading these forums and taking notes about "plot holes" (i.e. things that 1 or 2 vocal posters didn't like) so that he can address all of them in the next strip. I get that he's been an active participant on the forums in years past, so it's not like there's no precedent for this.

But consider for a brief moment, if you will, an alternative possibility: Rich was always going to have Elan and Belkar poke fun at Durkon & Roy's silent moralizing. That's what I would do if I was shifting perspective to the comic relief characters after several pages of high-concept talk.

While we are important to the comic as an entire audience that reads and supports and promotes OotS en masse, I think we flatter ourselves by imagining that each forum poster's individual concerns or opinions have any affect on how Rich chooses to tell his story. That's drifting into a parasocial fandom mentality, and IMO the forums are all the poorer for it.

[danielxcutter]

I also remember something on the lines of Rich actively avoiding the forums, though that was more about seeing guesses about the plot that are actually right and having a kneejerk reaction to want to change it or something.

[mjasghar]

There’s also the issue that there’s a history of people on other writers fan forums posting stuff and then claiming the author stole their idea.

[Worldsong]

And how some of the posts Rich has responded to in the past probably have given him a strong desire to not have to keep doing that in the future.

[Vikenlugaid]

The exact words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) were that there would be a "corresponding enhancement to damage", not "equal" or "equivalent" much less "25%". "Corresponding" is a pretty loose term.

It never occurred to me that that conversation could imply anything other than that the sword was non-magical before. It was described as "everday [sic] terrestrial steel", which I suppose doesn't necessarily mean that it was non-magical. If a magical weapon is broken and then repaired, does it regain/retain its magic?

Roy blows off the smith's attempt to explain how the "deadly green energy" effect could be counteracted. This suggests (weakly) that Xykon might find a way to protect himself, and also raises the possibility that Roy might find himself in a situation of not wanting to have the effect go off, but not knowing how to exert that control. Something along the lines of wanting to subdue Xykon without destroying him, maybe? -- I'm not familiar with the details of subduing opponents even as they apply to older versions of D&D, let alone in 3.5e.
I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

[Kish]

The Giant said at the time that:



If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".
Yeah, I didn't (and still don't) think there was any ambiguity. Each point on a d20 has a 5% chance of coming up; "+25% increase in accuracy" is +5. I blinked when people started talking about 25% as a percentage of the sword's entirely hypothetical previous enchantment.

[danielxcutter]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

Not to mention that dragons tend to have DR/magic.

[Ionathus]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.


Not to mention that dragons tend to have DR/magic.

Maybe he had a feat/other magic items that made his greatsword attacks magical? Or had his own minor Weapon of Legacy thing going on? I'm not convinced the Greenhilt Blade was nonmagical, but that would be one scenario where it could be.

Mechanics aside, the idea that this mighty hero won all these battles with a nonmagic greatsword would just increase his badass status all the higher.

[Fyraltari]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

I don't think, he was the great hero of his age. For one thing, he was contemporaries to the Order of the Scribble (I think, the calendar's a bit wonky) for another we've never seen anybody react to Roy's last name by mentionning him in any way.

Edit: as to why he wouldn't use a magical sword instead of the Greenhilt sword. Well, it's the Greenhilt sword, his family is named after it, it's important to him. Sometimes you make choices that aren't the best tactically but still makes sense to you.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think, he was the great hero of his age. For one thing, he was contemporaries to the Order of the Scribble (I think, the calendar's a bit wonky) for another we've never seen anybody react to Roy's last name by mentionning him in any way.

The Scribblers intentionally remained obscure, and it seems like the Spellspinter Maneuver is virtually extinct by now except for Roy.

[Fyraltari]

The Scribblers intentionally remained obscure, and it seems like the Spellspinter Maneuver is virtually extinct by now except for Roy.

I don't see you point.

[Dr.Zero]

I don't see you point.

That as the last person knowing one lost (and effective) skill that other fighter know only by name he had to be quite badass.
About being renowned, that's harder to tell: but he saved a princess and Reddragonsville from a Red Dragon.
And then saved again Reddragonsville from a Green Dragon, which, for some reasons, was harder to defeat than the red one.
He had to be the equivalent at least of a local hero.

(Being unknown to the general public matters little: X was unknown to Azurite nobles, apparently, and yet he has some 20+ levels a powerful template, had his own dungeons, and so on)

[danielxcutter]

Horace was probably still one of the greatest fighters of his day, is what I'm saying.

[Doug Lampert]

People always seem quick to assume that Rich is actively reading these forums and taking notes about "plot holes" (i.e. things that 1 or 2 vocal posters didn't like) so that he can address all of them in the next strip. I get that he's been an active participant on the forums in years past, so it's not like there's no precedent for this.

But consider for a brief moment, if you will, an alternative possibility: Rich was always going to have Elan and Belkar poke fun at Durkon & Roy's silent moralizing. That's what I would do if I was shifting perspective to the comic relief characters after several pages of high-concept talk.

While we are important to the comic as an entire audience that reads and supports and promotes OotS en masse, I think we flatter ourselves by imagining that each forum poster's individual concerns or opinions have any affect on how Rich chooses to tell his story. That's drifting into a parasocial fandom mentality, and IMO the forums are all the poorer for it.

I'm particularly impressed when Rich rather obviously goes OUT OF HIS WAY to set up a question, and then when he answers it next comic, someone says "Hey! He's answering the forum posts about this."

No, Rich is a good writer, he anticipates the really obvious reactions, especially when he sets them up. In this case, he has multiple characters argue about the goblin's status in various ways, he doesn't need to read the forums to know that there would be such an argument on the forums and people who disagree with his presentation and conclusions, nor does he need to have read the forums to decide to leave the agonizing over stuff and return to comedy for a strip or two prior to whatever comes next (presumably Serini ambushes them, but that's just one possibility).

Note: To my recollection, it is not true that Rich does not read the forums, summon Banana III, what he said is that he only checks the first couple of pages of each reaction thread to make sure that the comic is showing up for everyone and that there are no obvious typos. So he is aware of some of the reactions on the forum, I just don't think the forum is necessary for him to anticipate obvious reactions.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm going to bet that the green dragon did something to disenchant the Greenhilt, which is why the fight was so hard for Roy's grandfather.

May be they were greatpotatoes. As opposed to small potatoes.

[Jasdoif]

I'm particularly impressed when Rich rather obviously goes OUT OF HIS WAY to set up a question, and then when he answers it next comic, someone says "Hey! He's answering the forum posts about this."

No, Rich is a good writer, he anticipates the really obvious reactions, especially when he sets them up. In this case, he has multiple characters argue about the goblin's status in various ways, he doesn't need to read the forums to know that there would be such an argument on the forums and people who disagree with his presentation and conclusions, nor does he need to have read the forums to decide to leave the agonizing over stuff and return to comedy for a strip or two prior to whatever comes next (presumably Serini ambushes them, but that's just one possibility).

Note: To my recollection, it is not true that Rich does not read the forums, summon Banana III, what he said is that he only checks the first couple of pages of each reaction thread to make sure that the comic is showing up for everyone and that there are no obvious typos. So he is aware of some of the reactions on the forum, I just don't think the forum is necessary for him to anticipate obvious reactions.You're probably thinking of this:

I didn't know there was any such speculation. I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

It's just a logical point that needed to be made in the scene, given that all other paladins so far have had mounts.

However I think these two are more informative on the general subject:


Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.
...I don't mind the analysis (or overanalysis) of the comic anymore because I simply have too many other things to worry about. People are going to say what they are going to say. Some of the things that they say will be insightful; most will be run-of-the-mill; others will be utterly insipid. I don't even read most of what is posted here. There was a time when I would get very angry about people guessing the exact plot before it came to pass, but even that doesn't bother me anymore, simply because there are so many guesses that someone was bound to stumble upon the right answer some of the time.

[Petrocorus]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.
IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spells known.

[danielxcutter]

IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spell known.


A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.


A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

Technically there are ways they can learn more spells(such as certain feats or prestige classes), but not through research.

[bunsen_h]

IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spell known.

That doesn't seem to be mentioned in the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererSpells).

[Petrocorus]

Technically there are ways they can learn more spells(such as certain feats or prestige classes), but not through research.

I stand corrected.
Must have been thinking to another class.

[Jasdoif]

Must have been thinking to another class.Psionics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#addingPowers), possibly.

[Fyraltari]

That as the last person knowing one lost (and effective) skill that other fighter know only by name he had to be quite badass.
Huh, no?
We don't even know Horace was the last one to know that move, just that it was forgotten between his death and now. He may have been third-to-last to know it. And even then being the last one to know it isn't proof of being badass, in fact it more likely points to very few people wanting to learn it. Which makes sense considering it was parried literally the second time we saw it used.

Which is not to say Horace wasn't a badass, as a high-level fighter he most certainly was. But we don't have any reason to think he was the most badass warrior of his generation. The Order of the Scribble was made up of Epic adventurers and they all (except Kraagor obviously) ended up with a private fortress and an army/vast array of monsters.


About being renowned, that's harder to tell: but he saved a princess and Reddragonsville from a Red Dragon.
And then saved again Reddragonsville from a Green Dragon, which, for some reasons, was harder to defeat than the red one.
He had to be the equivalent at least of a local hero.
Yeah, a local hero, not "the Hero of the Age", it's been made pretty clear in this comic that there are a lot of heroes all having suitably impressive adventures at the same time.

I don't think Horace was a world-famous hero because he really doesn't need to be. He's important to the Greenhilts and that's enough for the story. He's Roy's model as a good man and badass single-classed Fighter and another link in a chain of poor father figures.

[danielxcutter]

Psionics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#addingPowers), possibly.

Huh, I thought psionics forbid you from using research to get around the power known limit, but I guess it's more about just not stealing other powers from different lists.

[Jasdoif]

Huh, I thought psionics forbid you from using research to get around the power known limit, but I guess it's more about just not stealing other powers from different lists.Annoyingly, there is a sentence to that effect in the XPH, but it's rather hidden at the end of the guidelines for research, which is probably why it got excluded from the SRD; at the very least arguable either way, especially since powers can't be retrained like spontaneous spellcasters can do with their spells and the XP cost for power research (successful or not) is a more limiting factor for characters than a gold cost would be.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, a local hero, not "the Hero of the Age", it's been made pretty clear in this comic that there are a lot of heroes all having suitably impressive adventures at the same time.

I don't think Horace was a world-famous hero because he really doesn't need to be. He's important to the Greenhilts and that's enough for the story. He's Roy's model as a good man and badass single-classed Fighter and another link in a chain of poor father figures.

Odds are he's an upper-mid or high level single-class fighter, stronger than Roy but not Epic. It's possible the Spellsplinter technique was handed down through the generations and was his signature move, and thus he could be the same level as Roy but heavily invested into that move and related techniques, but without any evidence to that end I'd argue he had a few levels over dead-Roy and so had filled up that entire line of abilities.

He might have been the Greatest Fighter On The Northern Continent TM at one point, but I agree he probably wasn't the top tier person of unspeakable legend.

[goodpeople25]

Annoyingly, there is a sentence to that effect in the XPH, but it's rather hidden at the end of the guidelines for research, which is probably why it got excluded from the SRD; at the very least arguable either way, especially since powers can't be retrained like spontaneous spellcasters can do with their spells and the XP cost for power research (successful or not) is a more limiting factor for characters than a gold cost would be.
Don't some psionic classes have access to retraining the power?

[Kish]

I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?
Red means moderator action.

Nothing else means anything, except that if you post with colors other than standard (black) excessively you shouldn't be surprised if you find the words "excessive formatting" in red on one of your posts, if you take my meaning.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?

Red means moderator action.

Nothing else means anything, except that if you post with colors other than standard (black) excessively you shouldn't be surprised if you find the words "excessive formatting" in red on one of your posts, if you take my meaning.

Some people like myself use certain colors to denote a specific tone, but it's usually in moderation. A lot of the time it's mentioned in their sig; blue in particular seems to be consistently sarcasm but I've seen plenty of meanings behind all sorts of colors. Though no one uses red because it's mod writing

Of course, as Kish said, making your every post look like a Lisa Frank knockoff is problematic.

[Quizatzhaderac]

.....unspeakable legend.Like the giant dwarf?

[Metastachydium]

Like the giant dwarf?

That's not a legend. That's an oxymoron.