Nautical campaign spell #3

[Guy Lombard-O]

So, this spell is one where I could definitely use some feedback. I suspect that it has some design issues which I'm overlooking (in addition to the fact that it's a ritual, but can also be upcast while using spell slots, which nickl_2000 pointed out may not be part of standard 5e design). It also feels a little overly complex to me, and I worry that it may not really have a lot of value in many instances. But it's designed for clerics, so at least the obvious situationality should be mitigated by being for prepared casters.

Anyhow, please let me know if this one's a waste of time?

Longship

4th-level conjuration (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (enough water to form a 20-foot long ship)
Duration: 1 hour

You cause the sea foam to bubble up and take solid form, creating a large, quasi-real ship of spongy, solidified water approximately 20 feet long. Creatures and items placed upon the Longship’s deck will find solid footing and their weight will be supported as if upon a solid wooden deck. The Longship is complete with oars and sails, and can be sailed or rowed in the same manner as any other similar ship. The Longhip will travel the normal speed at which those rowing or sailing the ship would normally propel a wooden ship of the same dimensions. Though magically stable, the Longship has only a 1-inch draft, and can hold up to 10 Medium sized creatures. A Large creature takes up the space of 3 Medium sized creatures on the Longship, and a Huge creature takes up the space of 10 Medium sized creatures. Additionally, cargo of up to 500 lbs. and no more than 5 cubic feet in size takes up the space of 1 Medium creature, although the extra weight itself is not an issue for the Longship.

The ship cannot be damaged by magical or non-magical means, except through magic which specifically targets water (Destroy Water, Tidal Wave, Control Water, etc.). Treat any such spell as a Dispel Magic cast against the Longship, but if the other water spell is 2nd level or lower the dispel ability check is made at disadvantage. Dispel Magic itself also works as per normal against the Longship.
At the end of the duration, the Longship and all its equipment liquefy and return to normal water.

At Higher Levels. When you invoke this miracle using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, you may either double the spell’s duration, or increase the Longship’s carrying capacity by 10 Medium creatures, for each spell slot level above the 4th (e.g. a Longship created with a 8th level spell slot could be made to hold 30 Medium sized creatures and to last 4 hours).

[Anymage]

I mentioned on your other thread, but the design space for spells that can be upcast and that can also be upcast as rituals does exist. Read the "rituals" section in the book, they wouldn't have added the bit they did if they didn't want the design space there.

One round does seem awfully fast for a whole ship to form. I don't remember how fast the other "magic a major construction into existence" spells cast so one round might be just fine, but I also have a feeling that making this thing in six seconds is just asking for "creative uses" that will really mess something up.

[Guy Lombard-O]

One round does seem awfully fast for a whole ship to form. I don't remember how fast the other "magic a major construction into existence" spells cast so one round might be just fine, but I also have a feeling that making this thing in six seconds is just asking for "creative uses" that will really mess something up.

Fair point. And I was really thinking of the spell's purpose for being more like replacing the need for a ship, or from being shipwrecked or something. Not really anything that needs to be created in 6 seconds. Probably a minute is more appropriate thematically.

Any other thoughts about the general usefulness of this one?

[sandmote]

I'd allow upcasting, but have it increase the duration of the spell rather than the carrying capacity. I think it feels cheap if the spell could do whatever it is you want but you need but can't because you expended your higher level spells.

If the spell creates a ship from the water, it would be of the transmutation school. Conjuration would be if you're summoning an existing ship to yourself. Or if you're creating the ship from raw magic, it would be evocation.

Also this is listed as #3, but I missed the first two. Can you link them? I have a few myself (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610860-Marine-Spells) if the self plug isn't too egregious.

[Eurus]

That duration seems awfully short for nautical journeys. How far can you really get in 1-4 hours? Even loading cargo onto it seems like it'd eat up most of that time... :smallconfused: Since it's a ritual anyway, I don't think there's any problem with having the duration be longer as long as you specify that a caster can only have one ship created at a time.

[Squire Doodad]

I'd suggest something like 5 minutes of casting with a much lengthier stretch of time for the boat to exist.
If you're worried about people not being able to make use of it when trapped in a perilous situation, something like "the frame and bottom of the ship manifest in under a minute and can be stood on during the casting duration" would fix that. Or maybe make the time spent casting dependent on the size of the ship.

More importantly, a ship that lasts for a few hours is worthless. It needs to be seaworthy for days in any scenario past "ferry passengers across the short channel".
If there's any concern that making a ship that will last for days could be abused by players to sell "ships" that will collapse before they can finish their journey, you could make it so anyone looking at the ship can take a moment and clearly see it's a magic ship which will fade at some point.
Perhaps telling it's a magicked water-longship has no check unless its the heat of battle, but telling how long it's going to last requires a middling DC Perception check?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Thank you all for the feedback! So it looks like I need to make at least two changes:

1. As Sandmote pointed out, this is really a transmutation spell. I don't know why I keep thinking things are conjurations?!?

2. I'm getting a pretty consistent response that this 1 hour duration is too short. My original thought was mostly that this spell would allow the caster to create the ship and keep it in existence, but only so long as he basically stayed on it and kept chanting to keep it together. The idea of selling the ship off or sending others off in it without you wasn't really in my mind (but of course, it should have been since players would obviously do that!). The upcasting (which since it's normally a ritual would be rather expensive spell slot-wise), was really more of an afterthought. But I can see how I may have underpowered that part of it. And maybe the spell in general (I usually err on the side of underpowering rather than overpowering homebrew stuff)?

Anyhow, I'm open to solid ideas about just how long this ship should last. Is a day too long for 4th level/ritual casting? Do people not like the flexibility in upcasting choices, so that you can transport a larger force with the higher levels, and think it should strictly increase duration?

EDIT: Oh, and for Sandmote, thanks for those spells, they're cool! And here's the links for my others:https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632024-Nautical-utility-cantrip-balance-help! &
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632042-Nautical-themed-spell-feedback-if-you-please

[Cicciograna]

The 1 hour is too short, but you can change the spell in a way that it ends if the original caster leaves the ship for more than 10 (or 5) minutes; and that he can keep casting the spell to keep the ship in existence.

With the first addition, the caster can actually leave the ship for boarding purposes or something like that, but not for too long, so fat chance of selling it or leaving other people on it; and with the second, you can actually get some usefulness from the ship even if the spell has a limited duration. I would still increase the duration to 8 hours or so, so that sleeping becomes possible.

[Squire Doodad]

The 1 hour is too short, but you can change the spell in a way that it ends if the original caster leaves the ship for more than 10 (or 5) minutes; and that he can keep casting the spell to keep the ship in existence.

With the first addition, the caster can actually leave the ship for boarding purposes or something like that, but not for too long, so fat chance of selling it or leaving other people on it; and with the second, you can actually get some usefulness from the ship even if the spell has a limited duration. I would still increase the duration to 8 hours or so, so that sleeping becomes possible.

That does pose major problems if the caster is taken away by a boarding party to "discuss" terms of surrender, though, or if the caster is hurled overboard, gets on a life preserver so they're still dangling along with the ship, but can't actually get back on until after they're clear of the massive storm.

The latter is particularly concerning, as that would probably happen at least once in a high seas game with normally abnormal weather.

[Cicciograna]

That does pose major problems if the caster is taken away by a boarding party to "discuss" terms of surrender, though, or if the caster is hurled overboard, gets on a life preserver so they're still dangling along with the ship, but can't actually get back on until after they're clear of the massive storm.

The latter is particularly concerning, as that would probably happen at least once in a high seas game with normally abnormal weather.

Those sound to me as very interesting scenarios especially when connected to the ephemeral nature of the ship.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The 1 hour is too short, but you can change the spell in a way that it ends if the original caster leaves the ship for more than 10 (or 5) minutes; and that he can keep casting the spell to keep the ship in existence.

With the first addition, the caster can actually leave the ship for boarding purposes or something like that, but not for too long, so fat chance of selling it or leaving other people on it; and with the second, you can actually get some usefulness from the ship even if the spell has a limited duration. I would still increase the duration to 8 hours or so, so that sleeping becomes possible.

8 hours and 10 minute caster limiter sounds about right to me.

Does this spell actually hold interest with these modifications?

[brian 333]

Casting time: 5 minutes per spell level

Duration: one voyage +1d4 hours

A voyage being from the creation of the longship until the caster steps off of it onto land. A second casting at 1 round per spell level may be used by the same caster on a longship which has not yet dissolved after having stepped off. The second casting allows one additional voyage.

The voyage presumes a nominal attention to the spell. Normal sleep does not affect the spell; however, if during the voyage the caster is rendered unconscious or unable to cast spells the d4 hour countdown to end the spell begins. Simply regaining consciousness or spellcasting ability before the spell ends resets the clock.

[Old Harry MTX]

I personally prefer a shorter duration (1 hour), which can be extended by as much by replicating the ritual once per hour when aboard the ship.

[brian 333]

I personally prefer a shorter duration (1 hour), which can be extended by as much by replicating the ritual once per hour when aboard the ship.

That duration would preclude almost all potential uses of a longship, which were the only true ocean-going vessels of their era and region.

[Guy Lombard-O]

That duration would preclude almost all potential uses of a longship, which were the only true ocean-going vessels of their era and region.

It was originally conceived much more as Old Harry MTX describes. The only reason I didn't use concentration was that I didn't want the ship to be near-useless in combats.

But the idea of having the caster basically holding the ship together by force of will alone, chanting part of every hour for as long as the ship is needed, has some distinct appeal to me. If the voyage ends up taking too long, then it would start to become a test of endurance for the caster, with the ship searching for islands or places where they could let the caster rest before the exhaustion rules render it impossible for the caster to go on. If the caster is strong enough and has high enough levels, they could even buy themselves a long rest by expending higher level spell slots.

But I can see where that's not necessarily the sort of fun that many players are looking for. So I'm flexible about the duration.

[brian 333]

No, I don't wish to alter your vision of the spell. I simply misunderstood your intent. I was thinking this was intended to be an alternate means of seagoing transport, while you were perhaps thinking of something to use in an emergency.