Tasha's Favored Foe

[nickl_2000]

Has anyone tried this in game if you have Hunter's Mark? Was it worth having available when you Hunter's Mark available since they both require concentration? Or are you better off getting the extra languages?

[stoutstien]

The maximum damage potential for favor for is much lower than HM but the fact it doesn't cost anything in terms of actions makes it worthwhile for those who have a particularly busy bonus action like horizon walker , monster slayer, or twf concepts. it also works for cantrip slinging as long as they are attack based.

I see it as a different tool than HM rather than a replacement.

[nickl_2000]

The maximum damage potential for favor for is much lower than HM but the fact it doesn't cost anything in terms of actions makes it worthwhile for those who have a particularly busy bonus action like horizon walker , monster slayer, or twf concepts. it also works for cantrip slinging as long as they are attack based.

I see it as a different tool than HM rather than a replacement.

I had a AL (kind of, home game using most of Eberron AL rules) character that I was planning on playing as a Beast Master with shillelagh with the Druidic cantrip fighting style. However, with the party that I'm in, it's just not working. So, I'm looking to re-create the character as a ranged Swarmkeeper instead. So, I won't be spending a lot of my bonus actions and have the space open for Hunter's Mark.


So, I guess I was thinking... if you are using Hunter's Mark a lot of the time do you actually use favored foe ever?

[Segev]

It is my opinion that Favored Foe is just not good. The UA version was probably where it needed to be, even if it had the unfortunate side-effect of making hunter's mark even more of a Ranger Class Feature Disguised As A Spell.

In truth, I'd much prefer Favored Enemy to actually be a useful feature, but...oh well.

[stoutstien]

From my perspective as a DM, HM is rarely worth the hype. It's a solid boost in damage but in the end of the day a well placed entangle or fog cloud is a better use the slot and concentration.
Swarm keeper looks like they would love spike growth for damage over HM.

Neither feature are really worth spending much grey matter worrying about. Id take the languages but I also like having tool prof and like being well rounded over a little damage bonus.

*The only exemption would be for low Wis rangers.*

[DigitalCharlie]

I've really enjoyed it, honestly, since it doesn't take any action to use. In that sense, it's free damage for me so long as I'm regularly using my bonus action. On my magic stone/shillelagh users, that's most turns. On my archers who always find a time to dip into war cleric, that's pretty regularly — and my favorite opening is casting hail of thorns on round 1 and then triggering favored foe on the hit (since both effects happen at the same time I get to decide the order they occur in).

It's not the greatest thing in the world, but I appreciate it as a tiny bonus that I otherwise just wouldn't have. And since it doesn't trigger until a hit, the worst thing that happens is I get an extra 1d4 of damage a couple of times a day. Is it powerful? Eh. Do I enjoy it more than what, in most campaigns, was just a couple of language proficiencies? Yes, yes I do.

[Segev]

From amy perspective as a DM, HM is rarely worth the hype. It's a solid boost in damage but in the end of the day a well placed entangle or fog cloud is a better use the slot and concentration.
Swarm keeper looks like they would love spike growth for damage over HM.


*The only exemption would be for low Wis rangers.*

:cough: The build I'm looking at it for is ranger/monk/rogue, with more monk than anything else at the moment. Hunter's mark is an extra d6 of damage on every attack against the target creature, which is a significant boost when you're a monk. Favored Foe as TCE does it is a smaller die type on only one attack per round.

[stoutstien]

:cough: The build I'm looking at it for is ranger/monk/rogue, with more monk than anything else at the moment. Hunter's mark is an extra d6 of damage on every attack against the target creature, which is a significant boost when you're a monk. Favored Foe as TCE does it is a smaller die type on only one attack per round.

Lol. yea monks can leverage HM, hex, DF to good effect just by the nature of volume of attacks. GS ranger/ fighter also are pretty solid at adding up those attacks. Both concepts also have a good ways of getting HM up before initiative is rolled which is equally impactful.

I just don't think that the bulk of rangers have enough single target attack count potential to really make HM shine.

[Segev]

Lol. yea monks can leverage HM, hex, DF to good effect just by the nature of volume of attacks. GS ranger/ fighter also are pretty solid at adding up those attacks. Both concepts also have a good ways of getting HM up before initiative is rolled which is equally impactful.

I just don't think that the bulk of rangers have enough single target attack count potential to really make HM shine.

Worse, their best ways to try to get that kind of potential compete for Concentration.

[Dork_Forge]

Tasha's favored Foe is absolutely awful, with the exception of Rangers that make heavy use of their bonus actions. For a Swarmkeeper you'd be better off just using Hunter's Mark.

If it didn't require concentration then it'd actually be pretty good, you could stack it with Hunter's Mark in the same turn for a pretty decent nova combat.

One other niche I can think of is a party that is low on healing, Favored Foe would free up some slots for the Ranger to bridge that gap, but that's a very niche benefit.

[Quietus]

I've been playing a beastmaster in Adventurer's League, we just hit 5 so I can only comment on levels 1-4. At level 1 it competes against nothing, so that's irrelevant. At 2 it's competing with Hunter's Mark, and loses. However, at 3-4? I'm spending my bonus action to give my pet an action, every single round. I would have to give up 1d8+4 plus a rider (prone or grapple) to get 1d6 damage, with HM, and that's just not a good tradeoff. So I have truly enjoyed being able to drop Favored Foe on a target, which a couple times has resulted in absurd damage, but mostly just serves to slightly ease the bell curve. 1d10+1d4+3 will very rarely do minimum damage, you're pretty reliably going to be landing in around that 8-12 range, and in tier 1 that is significant. I only get two uses, but I've specifically used them to target Big Threats, something that was going to wreck a party member, and generally end up taking that foe out.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not, I'd love if it were closer to a Hexblade's Curse sort of thing. But overall I have been happy with how it has worked out, in practice. We'll see if it sticks to that route in tier 2.

[Dark.Revenant]

~5 bonus guaranteed damage, costing essentially nothing.
Possibly ~11 bonus damage, if you include two subsequent rounds. ~13.5 if you're TWFing, due to the higher likelihood of a hit.

Action Surge gives you about ~13.5 bonus damage as well, assuming you get a short rest and are GWFing a greatsword.

So, yeah. Even at level 2, Favored Foe is worth it. Eventually it's about ~27 guaranteed damage, though that's only if you happen to hit someone with an attack on six different turns when you're not concentrating on anything.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm a little confused, though. Not sure why it's a comparison at all.

You compare Strength to Dexterity because you can only pick one. Same goes with melee vs. range.

Hunter's Mark vs. Favored Foe? They don't compete. You can do both 100% of the time.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm a little confused, though. Not sure why it's a comparison at all.

You compare Strength to Dexterity because you can only pick one. Same goes with melee vs. range.

Hunter's Mark vs. Favored Foe? They don't compete. You can do both 100% of the time.

They compete for concentration.

[Man_Over_Game]

They compete for concentration.

Oh, snap, I must have blanked and missed that change when they moved it over from UA. My bad, that does suck.

[stoutstien]

Oh, snap, I must have blanked and missed that change when they moved it over from UA. My bad, that does suck.

Almost you still have the concentration conflicts to address.

I do agree they are slightly different tools.

[Segev]

Oh, snap, I must have blanked and missed that change when they moved it over from UA. My bad, that does suck.

In UA, Favored Foe gave you the ability to cast hunter's mark a few times without a spell slot, and made it a spell known. It didn't compete because it just gave you the spell.

[Ettina]

In UA, Favored Foe gave you the ability to cast hunter's mark a few times without a spell slot, and made it a spell known. It didn't compete because it just gave you the spell.

And most importantly, it made hunter's mark not require concentration.

[Hytheter]

~5 bonus guaranteed damage, costing essentially nothing.
Possibly ~11 bonus damage, if you include two subsequent rounds. ~13.5 if you're TWFing, due to the higher likelihood of a hit.

Action Surge gives you about ~13.5 bonus damage as well, assuming you get a short rest and are GWFing a greatsword.

Where are you getting these numbers? I can't make any sense of them.

[Segev]

And most importantly, it made hunter's mark not require concentration.

Wow, I had forgotten that part. It only does so for the freebie uses that are cast as level 1 spell slots, but that's still a major upgrade, since with that it isn't suffering anti-synergy with spells like swift quiver.

[RogueJK]

I'm looking to re-create the character as a ranged Swarmkeeper instead. So, I won't be spending a lot of my bonus actions and have the space open for Hunter's Mark.

Consider a 2 level dip into Stars Druid instead, provided you have a decent WIS (16+ish). Stars Druid's Archer form gives you a solid ranged use for your Bonus Action, and results in a slightly better damage increase than Hunter's Mark:

Ranger with 18 DEX, Longbow, and Hunter's Mark: 1d8+1d6+4 (12 average). Once Extra Attack comes online at Ranger 5, that bumps up to a potential total of 2d8+2d6+8 (23 average)

Ranger with 2 levels in Stars Druid, 18 DEX, 16 WIS, and a Longbow: 1d8+4 plus 1d8+3 (16 average). After Ranger 5's Extra Attack, it's a potential total of 3d8+11 (24.5 average).


More important than the few points of better damage is the fact that Archer Form doesn't require your Concentration, so it doesn't interfere with spells like Entangle/Web/Faerie Fire/Spike Growth/Summon Beast or Fey/Conjure Animals/etc. And you could even tag on that additional 1d4 damage per turn from Favored Foe if you have nothing better to Concentrate on at the time.

It also doesn't cost a spell slot, instead working off your 2x/short rest Wild Shapes (which a Ranger with Druid dip wouldn't be using in combat anyway).

Plus the BA Stars attack gives you an additional 2nd/3rd chance each turn to land your Swarm ability, if you miss with the bow attack(s). Gathered Swarm only requires that it be an attack, not specifically a weapon attack. So it can even be used with attack roll cantrips/spells, or other types of attacks like Archer form.

[nickl_2000]

Consider a 2 level dip into Stars Druid instead, provided you have a decent WIS (16+ish). Stars Druid's Archer form gives you a solid ranged use for your Bonus Action, and results in a slightly better damage increase than Hunter's Mark:

Ranger with 18 DEX, Longbow, and Hunter's Mark: 1d8+1d6+4 (12 average). Once Extra Attack comes online at Ranger 5, that bumps up to a potential total of 2d8+2d6+8 (23 average)

Ranger with 2 levels in Stars Druid, 18 DEX, 16 WIS, and a Longbow: 1d8+4 plus 1d8+3 (16 average). After Ranger 5's Extra Attack, it's a potential total of 3d8+11 (24.5 average).


More important than the few points of better damage is the fact that Archer Form doesn't require your Concentration, so it doesn't interfere with spells like Entangle/Web/Faerie Fire/Spike Growth/Summon Beast or Fey/Conjure Animals/etc. And you could even tag on that additional 1d4 damage per turn from Favored Foe if you have nothing better to Concentrate on at the time.

It also doesn't cost a spell slot, instead working off your 2x/short rest Wild Shapes (which a Ranger with Druid dip wouldn't be using in combat anyway).

Plus the BA Stars attack gives you an additional 2nd/3rd chance each turn to land your Swarm ability, if you miss with the bow attack(s). Gathered Swarm only requires that it be an attack, not specifically a weapon attack. So it can even be used with attack roll cantrips/spells, or other types of attacks like Archer form.

An interesting concept and one that I will think over as I level. It certainly wouldn't hurt the group to have Healing Word and guidance available as well.

[Dark.Revenant]

Where are you getting these numbers? I can't make any sense of them.

You can activate Favored Foe on a hit, so you can guarantee each use of Favored Foe will do, at the least, the amount of damage one of its dice can do. At level 2, that's 2d4 = ~5 damage, unless you use them when you crit (in which case it would do double).

If you continue concentrating on Favored Foe afterwards and attack for two rounds, that's four attacks that you might hit with to get more d4s of bonus damage. Not including crits and assuming a 60% chance to hit, that works out to about ~6 more damage for a total of ~11. If you're TWFing, you have twice as many opportunities to hit, so that's 84% to proc the d4 of damage rather than 60%: a total of ~13.5 instead of ~11.

A 16-Strength fighter with GWF attacking once with a greatsword, not including crits and assuming a 60% chance to hit, does about ~6.5 damage. Thus, if you use your Action Surge to attack, that's how much extra damage you're gaining. If you do that twice (because you had a short rest), the total is about ~13.5.

In summary: at level 2, Favored Foe is a very competitive damage option.


Also, just for some other points: Rage's damage boost reaches ~13.5 total damage dealt after 8 rounds of Reckless Attacking. Flurry of Blows does ~6.5 extra damage (over just using Martial Arts) after spending both of your Ki points; the total is ~13 damage if you get a short rest.

[RogueJK]

You can activate Favored Foe on a hit, so you can guarantee each use of Favored Foe will do, at the least, the amount of damage one of its dice can do. At level 2, that's 2d4 = ~5 damage, unless you use them when you crit (in which case it would do double).

If you continue concentrating on Favored Foe afterwards and attack for two rounds, that's four attacks that you might hit with to get more d4s of bonus damage. Not including crits and assuming a 60% chance to hit, that works out to about ~6 more damage for a total of ~11. If you're TWFing, you have twice as many opportunities to hit, so that's 84% to proc the d4 of damage rather than 60%: a total of ~13.5 instead of ~11.


Favored Foe is +1d4 once per turn. Not added to each attack. You cannot get more than +2.5 extra damage per turn, no matter how many attacks you make. (With the exception that it would double on a crit like other damage dice.)

"The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you can increase that damage by 1d4."

[Dark.Revenant]

Favored Foe is +1d4 once per turn. Not added to each attack. You can never get more then 2.5 extra damage per turn, no matter how many attacks you make.

"The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you can increase that damage by 1d4."

Yes, which is why I'm calculating TWF as 40% better instead of 100% better.

[RogueJK]

Then where are you getting 2d4 (5) per turn? It's not possible to get +5 damage per turn from Favored Foe.

Your outcome with a single attack at Level 2 would be:
Hit: +1d4 (2.5)
Miss: +0

Your outcome with TWF at Level 2 would be:
2 Hits: +1d4 (2.5)
1 Hit/1 Miss: +1d4 (2.5)
2 Misses: +0

None of those outcomes allows for +2d4 (5), except on a crit.

[Dark.Revenant]

Then where are you getting 2d4 (5) per turn?

I'm not. 2d4 is just the guaranteed total damage from two separate uses of Favored Foe. 1d4 each.

[quindraco]

I'm not. 2d4 is just the guaranteed total damage from two separate uses of Favored Foe. 1d4 each.

I'm not following any of this, so here's twf hand-axe damage, with and without favored foe, assuming an S16 attacker and AC 13:

Base: 8.8
With: 11.1625
Net: +2.3625

Naturally, that's per round.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not following any of this, so here's twf hand-axe damage, with and without favored foe, assuming an S16 attacker and AC 13:

Base: 8.8
With: 11.1625
Net: +2.3625

Naturally, that's per round.

All they're saying is that you're guaranteed 2d4 damage minimum from using both of your 2 usues of Favored Foe in Tier 1, because unlike Hunter's Mark it triggers on a hit.

Edit: and why is the net gain less than the average of a d4 when it's guaranteed damage the first time you use it? Accuracy doesn't matter here.

[Segev]

If you're using any other Concentration effect, Favored Foe breaks it, even if you only use it as a one-off +1d4 to an already-made hit.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're using any other Concentration effect, Favored Foe breaks it, even if you only use it as a one-off +1d4 to an already-made hit.

Was this in response to anything in particular?

I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.

[Segev]

Was this in response to anything in particular?

I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.

More pointing out that the statement that it can just be used as a bonus d4 of damage is not quite right. It is not compatible the way a smite or other such ability would be. Whether it was intended to be taken that way or not, I felt the clarification was needed.

[jas61292]

I'm in the weird camp of people who things Favored Foe is decent, if only because I think Hunter's Mark is horribly overrated, and getting an effect (even if slightly worse) without using a spell slot resource is therefore a good deal. That being said, I'd rather not use concentration on either, and so I'd rather just take the old Favored Enemy.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I’m playing a Goblin Gloomstalker in a gritty realism campaign and Favored Foe has been wonderful because spell slots are really precious. Nimble Escape always give a good use for bonus action.

It’s important to reinforce that Horizon Walkers Monster Hunters and Beastmasters also have a good use for bonus action, so Favored Foe can be a good additional damage.