RHoD for Non-killing PCs

[dschiffmiller]

TL;DR at the bottom.

So I'm running the Red Hand of Doom for my nephew (11), my sister (37), and their friend (32). My nephew has decided he doesn't want to kill anyone or anything and gets very upset and will even attack the other PCs if anyone uses lethal force. I've spoken with him and with the group about some options they have to incapacitate some enemies without killing them, but it's been proving to be a challenge. They've all agreed that they won't use lethal force unless they've exhausted all other options. The only time they've been ok with lethal force was if they were fighting a summoned monster because I've told them that when a summon monster "dies" they're actually just sent back to their home plane, so it doesn't count as killing.

Additionally, I'm finding that for the most part they don't really love combat all that much. Partially because all the PCs are new to the game and they don't quite have the hang of it, but mainly because they always want to attempt to resolve things diplomatically. I told them I'd try to make the game less combat heavy and more focused on role play and they all say they'd like that better. But reading through the Red Hand of Doom, I'm finding the majority of the encounters are combat encounters (as with most D&D).

We're nearly at the end of part 1 and so far they've basically skipped over Vraath Keep, destroyed the dwarf bridge without any killing, and are telling the townsfolk to flee. The one big encounter change I've made was that I made the Hydra a mother hydra whose two babies had been kidnapped by goblins to be eaten. The PCs saw the hydra's nest with two broken eggs and a dozen pacifiers inside. They had to track down the goblins and managed to save one of the babies to return it to its mother. They said that's been their favorite part so far.

Do you guys have any other ideas for changes I can make to the campaign from part 2 onward so they aren't engaged in combat as much and/or can solve more puzzles, role play, or stealth their way to victory?

TL;DR: RHoD has too much combat/killing. How adjust to be more RP/puzzles?

[Kalkra]

While not really what you're asking, I'll mention that Power Word: Pain is a good non-lethal option.

[mattie_p]

Not exactly what you are asking either. I think you might be running the wrong module for the group. As act 1 ends, just wave the DM wand and they all live happily ever after whilst you find a different book.

Also, I believe that there are rules in BoED under vows for adaptations for non violent campaigns. Might want to take a look.

[Starbuck_II]

TL;DR at the bottom.

So I'm running the Red Hand of Doom for my nephew (11), my sister (37), and their friend (32). My nephew has decided he doesn't want to kill anyone or anything and gets very upset and will even attack the other PCs if anyone uses lethal force. I've spoken with him and with the group about some options they have to incapacitate some enemies without killing them, but it's been proving to be a challenge. They've all agreed that they won't use lethal force unless they've exhausted all other options. The only time they've been ok with lethal force was if they were fighting a summoned monster because I've told them that when a summon monster "dies" they're actually just sent back to their home plane, so it doesn't count as killing.

Additionally, I'm finding that for the most part they don't really love combat all that much. Partially because all the PCs are new to the game and they don't quite have the hang of it, but mainly because they always want to attempt to resolve things diplomatically. I told them I'd try to make the game less combat heavy and more focused on role play and they all say they'd like that better. But reading through the Red Hand of Doom, I'm finding the majority of the encounters are combat encounters (as with most D&D).

We're nearly at the end of part 1 and so far they've basically skipped over Vraath Keep, destroyed the dwarf bridge without any killing, and are telling the townsfolk to flee. The one big encounter change I've made was that I made the Hydra a mother hydra whose two babies had been kidnapped by goblins to be eaten. The PCs saw the hydra's nest with two broken eggs and a dozen pacifiers inside. They had to track down the goblins and managed to save one of the babies to return it to its mother. They said that's been their favorite part so far.

Do you guys have any other ideas for changes I can make to the campaign from part 2 onward so they aren't engaged in combat as much and/or can solve more puzzles, role play, or stealth their way to victory?

TL;DR: RHoD has too much combat/killing. How adjust to be more RP/puzzles?

Treat most the enemies like Conan The Barbarian cartoon: the snake enemies do not die they are sent back to their own realm (like summoned monsters).

Granted, only do this for mooks (weak ones), plus it would change the story a lot.
You can reflavor that Maglubiyet, the hobgoblin god, summoned all the hobgoblins in conjugation with Tiamat.
So, all the rank and fill minions are summoned creatures.

That still leaves the priests, Minotaur, Koth, etc.

Another idea, run another module? Because yeah, way too much combat in comparison.

Maybe try Kingmaker?

[Eurus]

It's totally possible to run any adventure in a non- or less-violent way, but if you're using a printed module, you're going to end up not using and needing to revise a lot of the content that's provided. Which loses most of the benefits of running a module, unfortunately. So I guess my advice would be to use RHoD as an inspiration but basically write or improvise your own campaign and not expect things to go quite according to plan.

[Cygnia]

Not only that, it's a module that the PCs can't really negotiate their way to total victory as written

[Starbuck_II]

Not only that, it's a module that the PCs can't really negotiate their way to total victory as written

I mean, alternatively if they join the Horde?
Granted, taking Bristol will still be lots of combat even with Horde on your side.

[Elves]

There are a lot of noncombat adventures you can make up. Running a module that's about a big war for players who don't like hack and slash seems like a pain for both of you. Even if you make it more noncombat at the encounter level, the theme of the story won't engage them.

If you have to continue, I'd use the idea that Azarr Kul and a small group of Tiamat fanatics are taking advantage of the goblin tribes for their own purposes. When the Red Hand soldiers realize they're being exploited, the two sides can work together against the Dragon Cult.

When I ran it years ago, I put in the twist that the battle at Brindol was a kind of mass blood sacrifice to fuel Azarr Kul's ritual to summon Tiamat. From the start of the module, the players found every Red Hand soldier's hand was carved with a ritual mark. The real purpose of these marks was to contribute that goblin's soul to Azarr Kul's ritual should they die. So the climactic battle was a win/win for Azarr Kul: even if he lost and his troops were killed, he'd get enough soul energy to summon Tiamat. (The mark or tattoo on the hand also adds a new meaning to the title of the module). Maybe in your version it's not just a win/win: in fact, he's intentionally marching his soldiers to their deaths. When the players discover this they can convince the Red Hand army to turn against the dragon cult leadership, bypassing the big battle scene.

[dschiffmiller]

While not really what you're asking, I'll mention that Power Word: Pain is a good non-lethal option.

Nice! I bet they'll like that one. Thank you.



Treat most the enemies like Conan The Barbarian cartoon: the snake enemies do not die they are sent back to their own realm (like summoned monsters).

While I haven't been doing that for the first batch of enemies they've faced, I could totally do that for the majority of the future enemies they might face. Thanks!



As for most other replies, thank you all for the advice. I don't really want to entirely throw out the module as they've already started and I think they at least want to "defeat the Red Hand" in some way or another. I'm fine with changing a ton of stuff after part 1, but I do want them to resolve the fact that some big army is trying to destroy everything in Elsir Vale. Outside of that, I'm fine with going totally off book to accomplish that main goal.

[Zombimode]

TL;DR: RHoD has too much combat/killing. How adjust to be more RP/puzzles?

To be frank: this is not the fault of the adventure. RHoD is a war scenario. It is about a small group of brave souls making the difference.

If the players have no interesst in playing war heroes than don't run RHoD for them.

Edit: that is not to say that you can't use the overall setting and plot of RHoD to run a different adventure in there. But most of the actual content provided by book is for war heroes.

[dschiffmiller]

To be frank: this is not the fault of the adventure. RHoD is a war scenario. It is about a small group of brave souls making the difference.

If the players have no interesst in playing war heroes than don't run RHoD for them.

Edit: that is not to say that you can't use the overall setting and plot of RHoD to run a different adventure in there. But most of the actual content provided by book is for war heroes.

I mean, my nephew didn't tell me ahead of time that they weren't gonna want to do the traditional hacking and slashing, otherwise yeah I wouldn't have picked this adventure. But since we've already started it, I'm hoping to figure out a way to make it work. I'm fine with throwing out most if not all of the rest of the campaign, but I want to finish the plot line of "big army of goblins want to destroy the local towns and junk."

[noob]

TL;DR at the bottom.

So I'm running the Red Hand of Doom for my nephew (11), my sister (37), and their friend (32). My nephew has decided he doesn't want to kill anyone or anything and gets very upset and will even attack the other PCs if anyone uses lethal force. I've spoken with him and with the group about some options they have to incapacitate some enemies without killing them, but it's been proving to be a challenge. They've all agreed that they won't use lethal force unless they've exhausted all other options. The only time they've been ok with lethal force was if they were fighting a summoned monster because I've told them that when a summon monster "dies" they're actually just sent back to their home plane, so it doesn't count as killing.

Additionally, I'm finding that for the most part they don't really love combat all that much. Partially because all the PCs are new to the game and they don't quite have the hang of it, but mainly because they always want to attempt to resolve things diplomatically. I told them I'd try to make the game less combat heavy and more focused on role play and they all say they'd like that better. But reading through the Red Hand of Doom, I'm finding the majority of the encounters are combat encounters (as with most D&D).

We're nearly at the end of part 1 and so far they've basically skipped over Vraath Keep, destroyed the dwarf bridge without any killing, and are telling the townsfolk to flee. The one big encounter change I've made was that I made the Hydra a mother hydra whose two babies had been kidnapped by goblins to be eaten. The PCs saw the hydra's nest with two broken eggs and a dozen pacifiers inside. They had to track down the goblins and managed to save one of the babies to return it to its mother. They said that's been their favorite part so far.

Do you guys have any other ideas for changes I can make to the campaign from part 2 onward so they aren't engaged in combat as much and/or can solve more puzzles, role play, or stealth their way to victory?

TL;DR: RHoD has too much combat/killing. How adjust to be more RP/puzzles?

If your team is high in non casters one of them taking ranks in the right skill can alter the weapons of all the party member to deal non lethal damage by default instead of dealing lethal damage.
If you have a lot of casters it is just a matter of preparing the right spells.

[Elves]

How about expediting the adventure so you can move on to something else? If you're at the end of part 1, after they break the bridge, have them trek through the Wyrmsmokes and go straight to a scaled-down version of the Fane of Tiamat. They've bought some time but the Horde is still coming so now it's time to strike at the head. Maybe the Horde has magically enslaved its dragons and you have to break the macguffin that's keeping them enchained. The freed dragons roast Azarr Kul to ashes and then fly off, leaving the Horde a mere rabble.

[Tiktakkat]

Part 2
As Written
Kill the Wyrmlord
Destroy the dragonspawn hatchery
Get the lich phylactery as a push for Part 3

Adjustment
Recover the lich phylactery without getting caught - Mission Impossible rather than running battle. You would really need to expand the map so there is room to avoid patrols rather than fight them, and encourage the party to have and use stealth.
For the dragonspawn, if they refuse to kill even blatantly evil monsters that cannot be reasoned with, then either a refluff making the dragonspawn more like summoned devils, and possibly refluff the eggs Dragonlance draconian style, and have them be eggs of other critters being turned into dragonspawn that can be "healed" or what not. That would likely require some magical transport device to carry the eggs to safety rather than destroy them.

Part 3
As Written
Kill the Wyrmlord
Negotiate with the lich

Adjustment
Negotiating with the lich is written into the adventure, so that part requires little effort.
As for the Wyrmlord and her forces, again the biggest issue is the map, and the near inability to bypass them without fighting. So again, if you can expand the map and give the PCs ways to evade patrols, you can turn it into a mission to "rescue" the evil undead. You might add to it stealing the staff the Wyrmlord has to reduce her power.

Part 4
As Written
Waves of combat

Adjustment
Switch the focus of the missions:
The giants are siege engines that have to be sabotaged.
The dragon fight is rescuing civilians from the fires.
The street fight is saving wounded soldiers.
The assassin needs to be captured to be interrogated, or focus on protecting the targets while NPCs do the fighting off-camera.
There really should be one boss battle, but between merciful weapons and subdual damage spells, you can avoid actual killing.

Part 5
As Written
Hack through guards and stop the ceremony

Adjustment
There are undead and devils, and most of the rest can be converted to such. Otherwise, yet again, go with infiltration over direct combat. There is a bit more space for maneuver on this map so you should not need to redo it, just play up the "sneak past the all the crew of the Death Star" aspect, maybe adding the equivalent of a trash compactor for them to get caught in while hiding.
For the grand finale, you again have to "these are not people, these are devils" bit for combat. Otherwise add options for disrupting the ritual. This can combo with all the sneaking, having the players do a bit of a scavenger hunt to find various junk that can be combined at the last minute to wreck things. Some of these can involve negotiations with various NPCs, prisoners with critical information, or treacherous underlings convinced to betray the boss, or turn over a new leaf and be good, for more skill and interaction options.

General
Merciful weapons mean the melee types never have to kill anyone. You can handwave DR as needed.
For wizards: sunstroke, whelm, malevolent miasma, whelming blast, (Bigby's) striking fist, inevitable defeat, dancing web, mass whelm, glimpse of eternity, overwhelm, all deal nonlethal damage, and include spells up to 6th level. Toss in all the spells that cause fatigue and exhaustion plus ray of enfeeblement and ray of clumsiness for Str and Dex penalties, and that should be more than enough for them to contribute in "non"-combat.

[dschiffmiller]

Part 2
As Written
Kill the Wyrmlord
Destroy the dragonspawn hatchery
Get the lich phylactery as a push for Part 3

Adjustment
Recover the lich phylactery without getting caught - Mission Impossible rather than running battle. You would really need to expand the map so there is room to avoid patrols rather than fight them, and encourage the party to have and use stealth.
For the dragonspawn, if they refuse to kill even blatantly evil monsters that cannot be reasoned with, then either a refluff making the dragonspawn more like summoned devils, and possibly refluff the eggs Dragonlance draconian style, and have them be eggs of other critters being turned into dragonspawn that can be "healed" or what not. That would likely require some magical transport device to carry the eggs to safety rather than destroy them.

Part 3
As Written
Kill the Wyrmlord
Negotiate with the lich

Adjustment
Negotiating with the lich is written into the adventure, so that part requires little effort.
As for the Wyrmlord and her forces, again the biggest issue is the map, and the near inability to bypass them without fighting. So again, if you can expand the map and give the PCs ways to evade patrols, you can turn it into a mission to "rescue" the evil undead. You might add to it stealing the staff the Wyrmlord has to reduce her power.

Part 4
As Written
Waves of combat

Adjustment
Switch the focus of the missions:
The giants are siege engines that have to be sabotaged.
The dragon fight is rescuing civilians from the fires.
The street fight is saving wounded soldiers.
The assassin needs to be captured to be interrogated, or focus on protecting the targets while NPCs do the fighting off-camera.
There really should be one boss battle, but between merciful weapons and subdual damage spells, you can avoid actual killing.

Part 5
As Written
Hack through guards and stop the ceremony

Adjustment
There are undead and devils, and most of the rest can be converted to such. Otherwise, yet again, go with infiltration over direct combat. There is a bit more space for maneuver on this map so you should not need to redo it, just play up the "sneak past the all the crew of the Death Star" aspect, maybe adding the equivalent of a trash compactor for them to get caught in while hiding.
For the grand finale, you again have to "these are not people, these are devils" bit for combat. Otherwise add options for disrupting the ritual. This can combo with all the sneaking, having the players do a bit of a scavenger hunt to find various junk that can be combined at the last minute to wreck things. Some of these can involve negotiations with various NPCs, prisoners with critical information, or treacherous underlings convinced to betray the boss, or turn over a new leaf and be good, for more skill and interaction options.

General
Merciful weapons mean the melee types never have to kill anyone. You can handwave DR as needed.
For wizards: sunstroke, whelm, malevolent miasma, whelming blast, (Bigby's) striking fist, inevitable defeat, dancing web, mass whelm, glimpse of eternity, overwhelm, all deal nonlethal damage, and include spells up to 6th level. Toss in all the spells that cause fatigue and exhaustion plus ray of enfeeblement and ray of clumsiness for Str and Dex penalties, and that should be more than enough for them to contribute in "non"-combat.


Holy **** dude thank you so much! This is above and beyond exactly the kind of help I needed! I'm probably going to end up using every single one of (or a slight variant of) your ideas. I honestly can't thank you enough.

Really, everyone who's answered has given me a lot of useful ideas to work with. Thank you all. I'll let you guys know how the next few sessions go if they like where stuff is headed.

[Quertus]

The one big encounter change I've made was that I made the Hydra a mother hydra whose two babies had been kidnapped by goblins to be eaten. The PCs saw the hydra's nest with two broken eggs and a dozen pacifiers inside. They had to track down the goblins and managed to save one of the babies to return it to its mother. They said that's been their favorite part so far.

I'm not generally a fan of changing published modules, but I a) agree that, in your case, it's called for; b) have to point out that you did an *amazing* job with this particular encounter!

So just keep an eye out for places to use your incredible creativity to create / modify cool encounters like this one.

I don't know the module to comment more than to agree with comments of Merciful / strike for subdual / subdual substitution / various nonlethal spells as good for the party, regardless of the module you're running.

[Tiktakkat]

Holy **** dude thank you so much! This is above and beyond exactly the kind of help I needed! I'm probably going to end up using every single one of (or a slight variant of) your ideas. I honestly can't thank you enough.

You are welcome.
I regularly refluff adventures, or just maps, for my own games, but never a thematic rebuild like that. It was an interesting exercise for me and I am glad you found it useful.
Good luck with your game, and definitely let us know how it works out.