Extended metamagic and you - 240hp from a 3rd level slot - what else works?

[whateew]

I was looking at aura of vitality, which lets you heal 2d6 hit points over a minutes duration, which is already quite a lot (avg of 70 hitpoints. however, with a sorcerers extended spell metamagic, you can heal a phenomenal 140hp with just a 3rd spell slot, a single sorcery point, and two minutes of your time - mark of healing sorcerer as a phenomenal healbot anyone? And with a one level dip into life cleric (or a life cleric with borrowed metamagic), this healing gets a shocking extra 100hp (2 + 3(spells level) X 10 heals X 2 when extended!)

What other spells work very well with extended metamagic? It suits hex / hunters mark well, but with the metamagic adept feat you can use it with pretty much any classes spell now.

The old "conjure X" spells come to mind, getting double mileage for a single sorcery point, as well as aid and darkvision - but what else?

[MaxWilson]

Death Ward, Aid, Foresight before a long rest so you still have them the next day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Death Ward, Aid, Foresight before a long rest so you still have them the next day.

You get your spells back at the end of the long rest, so 7 hours 58 minutes into the long rest you can cast those and they're up for pretty much your whole adventuring day and you've still got all your spell slots.

[PhantomSoul]

You get your spells back at the end of the long rest, so 7 hours 58 minutes into the long rest you can cast those and they're up for pretty much your whole adventuring day and you've still got all your spell slots.

Pending your DM not treating that as ruining your long rest, of course...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pending your DM not treating that as ruining your long rest, of course...

Officially, it works fine. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/646383855964852224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E646383855964852224%7Ctwgr%5E %7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fcasting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest%2F)

[Dork_Forge]

Officially, it works fine. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/646383855964852224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E646383855964852224%7Ctwgr%5E %7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fcasting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest%2F)

That's still a table ruling, I personally don't see spellcasting as a restful activity and using slots in that way is nothing but gaming the system.

[Hytheter]

Officially, it works fine. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/646383855964852224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E646383855964852224%7Ctwgr%5E %7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fcasting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest%2F)

Weird to see Crawford rule on the side of players, especially in such an exploitable way. I guess Mage Armour, Aid and even Foresight are essentially slotless now.

[PhantomSoul]

Officially, it works fine. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/646383855964852224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E646383855964852224%7Ctwgr%5E %7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2Fcasting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest%2F)

1. Good luck getting that at a table (I play in a lot of groups and none of them allow such blatant abuse).
2. Notice he doesn't actually even say it works; he says if you finish a long rest you get your slots back. It implies it might not interrupt/halt the long rest, but he doesn't actually state that (probably because it's blatant abuse).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Good luck getting that at a table (I play in a lot of groups and none of them allow such blatant abuse).
2. Notice he doesn't actually even say it works; he says if you finish a long rest you get your slots back. It implies it might not interrupt/halt the long rest, but he doesn't actually state that (probably because it's blatant abuse).

"If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it."

So unless you spend at least an hour casting spells, it doesn't interrupt the long rest. (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487278381663145984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

[Dork_Forge]

"If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it."

So unless you spend at least an hour casting spells, it doesn't interrupt the long rest. (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487278381663145984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

...You can also read that sentence as the hour only applying to the walking activity which makes far more sense, since no character would spend an hour straight fighting.

Reading it as the hour applying to everything makes that rule seem just nonsensical and ripe for abuse.

[PhantomSoul]

...You can also read that sentence as the hour only applying to the walking activity which makes far more sense, since no character would spend an hour straight fighting.

Reading it as the hour applying to everything makes that rule seem just nonsensical and ripe for abuse.

Yeah, that's how literally everyone I've played with interprets it, which seems like the only sensible thing given, you know, the rules and the game being playable haha

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, that's how literally everyone I've played with interprets it, which seems like the only sensible thing given, you know, the rules and the game being playable haha

Yeah, I only see it interpretted like this by people that would like to take advantage of it (stockpiling Goodberries, applying every buff they have etc.)

I was curious and passed the text by my partner, who is a professional editor that works by the Chicago Manual of Style (which is how WotC writes) and her answer was that the hour applied only to walking.

[Hytheter]

...You can also read that sentence as the hour only applying to the walking activity which makes far more sense, since no character would spend an hour straight fighting.

Of course you wouldn't spend an hour fighting. But you might spend 2 minutes fighting, 50 minutes walking, and ten minutes casting a ritual spell, in which case you would have spent more than an hour doing strenuous activity.

[Dork_Forge]

Of course you wouldn't spend an hour fighting. But you might spend 2 minutes fighting, 50 minutes walking, and ten minutes casting a ritual spell, in which case you would have spent more than an hour doing strenuous activity.

Which still leaves the rule open to nonesense like:

-You can be subject to 599 rounds of combat without it counting as strenuous enough to disrupt your rest

-The notion that whilst combat is regarded as a strenuous activity, it is not strenuous enough to interupt a rest unless taken to the extreme

-You can concentrate on a spell for a chunk of your rest but that doesn't interupt you resting

[Willowhelm]

One reply before a thread derail. Is that a record?

[ff7hero]

Which still leaves the rule open to nonesense like:

-You can be subject to 599 rounds of combat without it counting as strenuous enough to disrupt your rest

-The notion that whilst combat is regarded as a strenuous activity, it is not strenuous enough to interupt a rest unless taken to the extreme

-You can concentrate on a spell for a chunk of your rest but that doesn't interupt you resting

Yup, all those things are true based on the rules. Cats also lack darkvision and routinely die from 10 ft falls. But every Half Orc can survive falling from orbit once every day. The universe of the game is not the universe in which we live and it does not follow the same rules.

I'm curious how your partner would have written the rule to indicate that "one hour of walking or one hour of fighting or one hour of spellcasting..." invalidated a rest, because that was my best crack at it and it seems super wordy and repetitive.


Yeah, that's how literally everyone I've played with interprets it, which seems like the only sensible thing given, you know, the rules and the game being playable haha

So the word of 2 of the game's designers doesn't pass snuff but your anecdote is supposed to. I'll check your anecdote and raise one of my own. Both of my regular games allow you to cast spells 7 hours and 54 minutes into a Long Rest. They're both following the rules and 100% playable. Most of the people I game with are sensible people too ;).


One reply before a thread derail. Is that a record?

For better or worse, this is relevant to which spells are most benefitted by Extend Metamagic.

[Willowhelm]

I'm curious how your partner would have written the rule to indicate that "one hour of walking or one hour of fighting or one hour of spellcasting..." invalidated a rest, because that was my best crack at it and it seems super wordy and repetitive.

“An hour of strenuous activity such as...thing a, thing b, thing c etc”

You can also write it so the other reading is clear too.

“Activities such as thing a, thing b, or an hour of thing c.”

They did neither and left it ambiguous.

[PhantomSoul]

Wouldn't it be great if the game was designed around rulings-not-rules not out of necessity to deal with unclear, ambiguous or inconsistent rules? (I'm aware that wasn't their intent, but really, they made rulings necessary with how they wrote the rules.)



So the word of 2 of the game's designers doesn't pass snuff but your anecdote is supposed to. I'll check your anecdote and raise one of my own. Both of my regular games allow you to cast spells 7 hours and 54 minutes into a Long Rest. They're both following the rules and 100% playable. Most of the people I game with are sensible people too ;).


Well that's a strange choice they've made. (Not incoherent with RAW, but, well, there are multiple parses to pick and that's never one I'll go for.)

[MaxWilson]

You get your spells back at the end of the long rest, so 7 hours 58 minutes into the long rest you can cast those and they're up for pretty much your whole adventuring day and you've still got all your spell slots.

I don't buy that interpretation (that casting spells two minutes before the end of a rest still gives you those slots back two minutes later--what is this, Diablo II?) but if your DM lets you do it, you really don't need Extended Spell.


I'm curious how your partner would have written the rule to indicate that "one hour of walking or one hour of fighting or one hour of spellcasting..." invalidated a rest, because that was my best crack at it and it seems super wordy and repetitive.

"One hour of strenuous activity--walking, fighting, or casting spells--"

[ff7hero]

I don't buy that interpretation (that casting spells just before the end of a rest still gives you those slots back two minute later--what is this, Diablo II?) but if your DM lets you do it, you really don't need Extended Spell.

As long as nothing happens 8+ hours after you finish your long rest for most of the spells you'd use this with.

[MaxWilson]

But every Half Orc can survive falling from orbit once every day.

Half orcs still die instantly to massive damage. It takes ~35 HP for a half orc to (potentially) survive a fall from orbit, same as anybody else.

[Dork_Forge]

Yup, all those things are true based on the rules. Cats also lack darkvision and routinely die from 10 ft falls. But every Half Orc can survive falling from orbit once every day. The universe of the game is not the universe in which we live and it does not follow the same rules.

Whilst I find the cat thing idiotic, if you were to try and model animals on real life then a great number (most?) of them would keen senses and darkvision. The differences between animal and human senses are great and granular, the game doesn't support this level of granularity.

A Half Orc is not protected from instant death.


I'm curious how your partner would have written the rule to indicate that "one hour of walking or one hour of fighting or one hour of spellcasting..." invalidated a rest, because that was my best crack at it and it seems super wordy and repetitive.

I asked her and she wrote this:



Easy:

"One hour of either walking, fighting, or spellcasting."

Which isn't wordy, but if you want wordy, I can still do better:

"One hour of the following: walking, fighting, or spellcasting."


So the word of 2 of the game's designers doesn't pass snuff but your anecdote is supposed to. I'll check your anecdote and raise one of my own. Both of my regular games allow you to cast spells 7 hours and 54 minutes into a Long Rest. They're both following the rules and 100% playable. Most of the people I game with are sensible people too ;).

Did I miss something? When did tweets become official again and when did Crawford start giving out clear and concise answers to questions? His answers are almost always just a parroting of the rules, in an attempt to teach a man to fish when he went to a restaurant for lunch.

[Frogreaver]

Healing only works if there is hp that needs healed. Damage only works if there are enemies that need damaged. There will be many times your extended Aura of Vitality doesn't heal more than the non-extended version.

[Contrast]

On topic:

A lot of spells with 10 minute durations can get mileage from Extend. Spirit Guardians or Telekinesis for example will in the right circumstances potentially suddenly be lasting through 2 or 3 combats.

Then you have spells with an 8+ hour duration - Mind Blank, Planar Binding, Magnificent Mansion, Suggestion, Seeming. You can get a lot of utility from extending the duration of these spells, often allowing them to last all day or save spell slots by using slots from the previous day to carry over.

Off topic:

Groups in my area have interpreted it so that the rules allow for a party to be ambushed while asleep, fight a combat and then go back to sleep without disrupting the rest. Of course if you want to move camps (which you may well want to after getting attacked) thats likely to take longer than an hour and will disrupt the rest.

I don't think I've ever had a DM rule that casting a spell was sufficient to entirely disrupt a long rest and reset the 8 hour timer, though admittedly I've also never seen a PC try to argue they wait until 7 hours 59 minutes into a long rest to cast a spell either.

[RSP]

Which still leaves the rule open to nonesense like:

-You can concentrate on a spell for a chunk of your rest but that doesn't interupt you resting

Concentrating on a spell does not in anyway invalidate rests, RAW.

If you need to sleep, though, that adds conditions that would break concentration; but resting in and of itself, does not.

[Chronic]

Most of the spells you cited aren't on the sorcerer spell list. Sure a wizard might take the feat and chose extanded, but honestly it's a bad choice. Extended metamagic is a fairly bad metamagic outside of edge case, which are mostly found in the divine soul spell list. And still, considering you only have four metamagic option and that the 4th only come at 17, extend is really low on priority. Even for divine soul, which is more likely to take twinning spell, which is of rather situational use for other subclass too.

[whateew]

Most of the spells you cited aren't on the sorcerer spell list. Sure a wizard might take the feat and chose extanded, but honestly it's a bad choice. Extended metamagic is a fairly bad metamagic outside of edge case, which are mostly found in the divine soul spell list. And still, considering you only have four metamagic option and that the 4th only come at 17, extend is really low on priority. Even for divine soul, which is more likely to take twinning spell, which is of rather situational use for other subclass too.

What you mention about spell lists is pertinent - the mark of healing halfling brings the aura of vitality, but the rest aren't necessarily there (although a clockwork soul sorcerer could get some neat abjuration spells)

However, given that the cleric gets aura of vitality in expanded Tasha's spell lists, seems worthwhile for a healing focused player to take the extended metamagic as part of a metamagic adept feat - it's a lot of healing, and it applies very well to aid like others have said - spend 2 spellslots and 2 sorcery points just before calling it a day, and wake up to get these resources back and an extra 5 / 10 / 15 hp etc for 6 party members or 2 deathwards - seems worth it to me, especially as you could take other good options such as subtle spell, or even transmute spell if you want divine strike to not be as awful as it is.

I guess the question is, do you think it'd be worth it



Also, honoured that my thread is a contender for most-quickly-derailed

[RogueJK]

Aura of Vitality is also a Paladin spell, so this is an option for Sorcadins going Paladin 9+. (Though most Sorcadins will stick to 2/X, 6/X, or 7/X.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tasha's added Aura of Vitality and a number of other spells to the Cleric list, making it fair game for a Divine Soul Sorcerer without any additional effort. Take Metamagic Adept and you've got two more metamagic options to pick from right off the bat, so there's less of an opportunity cost for picking Extend.

[MaxWilson]

Aura of Vitality is also a Paladin spell, so this is an option for Sorcadins going Paladin 9+. (Though most Sorcadins will stick to 2/X, 6/X, or 7/X.)

I routinely recommend Pal 9/Sorc 3+ splits with Quickened and Extended for just this reason. Extended Aura of Vitality is a gamechanger.


Tasha's added Aura of Vitality and a number of other spells to the Cleric list, making it fair game for a Divine Soul Sorcerer without any additional effort.

You are mistaken, sir. Tasha's does not alter the cleric spell list. Rather, it has an optional ability for some 1st level clerics to gain access to extra spells not on the cleric list. You'd have to go Cleric 1/Divine Soul X and get DM permission to get access to Aura of Vitality as a Divine Soul.

[PhantomSoul]

You are mistaken, sir. Tasha's does not alter the cleric spell list. Rather, it has an optional ability for some 1st level clerics to gain access to extra spells not on the cleric list. You'd have to go Cleric 1/Divine Soul X and get DM permission to get access to Aura of Vitality as a Divine Soul.

Huh... you're right; that's exactly how it's presented. Interesting.

[Dork_Forge]

Concentrating on a spell does not in anyway invalidate rests, RAW.

If you need to sleep, though, that adds conditions that would break concentration; but resting in and of itself, does not.

RAW I mostly agree with you, but as a DM I don't see how concentrating on a spell is restful, especially since it explicitly goes against 'refreshing your mind'

[Yakk]

Walking is not on the same tier as fighting strain wise.

Clearly 1 hour of walking is seperate from any fighting at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Sorcerer can take the Boros Legionnaire background to gain access to Aid and Death Ward without using Divine Soul.



Walking is not on the same tier as fighting strain wise.

Clearly 1 hour of walking is seperate from any fighting at all.

I provided a link earlier (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487278381663145984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) where Mike Mearls clarified that the 1 hour applies to all of the things that follow, not just the first thing. If you get a random encounter while resting, you don't need to start your long rest over unless you spend an hour or more fighting and/or doing any of the other things listed. RAW, anything less than an hour total of any of those things, and you can finish the long rest without issue.

[MaxWilson]

I provided a link earlier (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487278381663145984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) where Mike Mearls clarified that the 1 hour applies to all of the things that follow, not just the first thing. If you get a random encounter while resting, you don't need to start your long rest over unless you spend an hour or more fighting and/or doing any of the other things listed. RAW, anything less than an hour total of any of those things, and you can finish the long rest without issue.

Twitter is not an official rules source for good reason.

[Hytheter]

I'm surprised this is contentious to be honest. I've always thought it obvious that the rule exists specifically so that you can get interrupted with a fight in the middle of the night and still rest afterwards.

[Contrast]

Twitter is not an official rules source for good reason.

I mean sure but in this case but Crawford and Mearls appear to be in agreement that the RAI on the potentially ambiguously worded statement is that it is [1 hour] of [walking, etc] rather than [1 hour of walking], [etc].

If you choose to ignore that no-one is gonna burst into your game through the window and make you play different, but then they wouldn't if they added it to the Sage Advice Compendium either anyway - DMs can do what they want with that information.

[RSP]

RAW I mostly agree with you, but as a DM I don't see how concentrating on a spell is restful, especially since it explicitly goes against 'refreshing your mind'

Gotcha. Certainly your houserules are your houserules, and I’ve no desire to argue them; however, your initial statement did not seem to be indicating you were referring to houserules.

[Valmark]

Planar Binding+any of the various one-hour long conjuring spells. Extend the latter and you have no more issue where you depend on the DM to decide wether Planar Binding can be completed in time.

Regarding the tweets and Sage Advice: the former aren't official and both have rule errors, I'd never take them seriously.

Regarding the long rest: it's ambiguous, kinda pointless to debate it. 5e was specifically designed for rulings-not-rules, so you can't really expect a clear case on (most) things. It's also a fantasy world with superhumans (compared to us) and fantastic creatures where the only natural laws corresponding to ours are the ones we as DMs put in, so any kind of decision based on logic (this is more strenous, it shouldn't take an hour) while valid it's really just your opinion.

For what's worth you can't walk 24 hours without getting tired out but you could fight (or cast spells!) 24 hours and still be as fresh as a rose, so saying that fighting is worst then walking seems a bit of a stretch in D&D. Personally I read it as one hour of [list of activities], if only because I can send an ambush during the night without the party having to restart it.

Or more simply someone can throw a cantrip without having to rest 8 hours again afterwards.

EDIT: Actually given the marching rules most characters can't even walk 24 hours, they'll become unable to move due to exhaustion before then.

[PhantomSoul]

For what's worth you can't walk 24 hours without getting tired out but you could fight (or cast spells!) 24 hours and still be as fresh as a rose, so saying that fighting is worst then walking seems a bit of a stretch in D&D. Personally I read it as one hour of [list of activities], if only because I can send an ambush during the night without the party having to restart it.

To be honest, I see having time decisions come up as a concentration to be a benefit of using the interrupting parse. Sure, it's not going to matter all the time, but it gives some in-game benefit to having made yourself safer [an obviously intelligent objective from the PC perspective] to not be interrupted (meaning it's advantageous for many things: for helping time matter when it's a resource, to avoid nonsense like casting a minute before a long rest ends at no real cost, to make location of rest be an actual decision, and giving potential reward for making an area safer).

[ff7hero]

To be honest, I see having time decisions come up as a concentration to be a benefit of using the interrupting parse. Sure, it's not going to matter all the time, but it gives some in-game benefit to having made yourself safer [an obviously intelligent objective from the PC perspective] to not be interrupted (meaning it's advantageous for many things: for helping time matter when it's a resource, to avoid nonsense like casting a minute before a long rest ends at no real cost, to make location of rest be an actual decision, and giving potential reward for making an area safer).

Because Leomund's Tiny Hut just isn't used often enough...

[Yakk]

I provided a link earlier (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487278381663145984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) where Mike Mearls clarified that the 1 hour applies to all of the things that follow, not just the first thing. If you get a random encounter while resting, you don't need to start your long rest over unless you spend an hour or more fighting and/or doing any of the other things listed. RAW, anything less than an hour total of any of those things, and you can finish the long rest without issue.
Yes, I know Mike is wrong. Nobody who wrote that sentence meant "it takes 1 hour of fighting to interrupt a long rest".

The price of posting without an editor.

[ff7hero]

Yes, I know Mike is wrong. Nobody who wrote that sentence meant "it takes 1 hour of fighting to interrupt a long rest".

The price of posting without an editor.

So a single kobold invades your camp while the Barbarian is on watch, 6 hours into the rest. The Barbarian spots and squishes this glorified pest with a single attack, but now he needs to start his long rest from scratch?

[Dork_Forge]

Gotcha. Certainly your houserules are your houserules, and I’ve no desire to argue them; however, your initial statement did not seem to be indicating you were referring to houserules.

Rulings are not houserules, there's no line between fluff and mechanics in 5e and the text of long rest clearly states refreshing the mind.

[MaxWilson]

So a single kobold invades your camp while the Barbarian is on watch, 6 hours into the rest. The Barbarian spots and squishes this glorified pest with a single attack, but now he needs to start his long rest from scratch?

Maybe. Ask your DM how the adrenaline of combat affected him (was the barb amped up expecting other kobolds to attack? or was it just a casual bug squish). But even in a worst case scenario where the DM says even a casual murder counts as "fighting" and disrupts a rest, at least the other PCs get to rest if they let the barbarian do all the fighting. Then they can watch while he rests, if needed.

Might be good to let the monk or warlock handle the kobold. Barb needs his beauty sleep. :)

[RSP]

Rulings are not houserules, there's no line between fluff and mechanics in 5e and the text of long rest clearly states refreshing the mind.

Disagree. Nothing in the RAW states this. You deciding “no concentrating during a SR” is a houserule. If it works for your table, cool. But it’s not RAW.

[Dork_Forge]

Disagree. Nothing in the RAW states this. You deciding “no concentrating during a SR” is a houserule. If it works for your table, cool. But it’s not RAW.

You disagree with what exactly:

-That there's no line between fluff and crunch in 5e?

-That rulings are not house rules?

-That concentrating does not go with refreshing your mind?

Not sure if a typo or mix up, but we're also talking about long rests, not short.

Conversely, why is this something that has to be denied? Where does it say that you can do this?

[whateew]

You guys ought to create a new thread for debate concerning what you can and can't do during long and short rests, especially concentration wise.

[RSP]

You disagree with what exactly:

-That there's no line between fluff and crunch in 5e?

-That rulings are not house rules?

-That concentrating does not go with refreshing your mind?

Not sure if a typo or mix up, but we're also talking about long rests, not short.

Conversely, why is this something that has to be denied? Where does it say that you can do this?

You’ve already declared the view opposite yours as “nonsense”. I don’t care to argue your houserules.

[ATHATH]

It should be noted that Extend Spell has a duration cap of 24 hours.

Metamagic Adept: Extend Spell is nice for Warlocks who want to cast Extended Armor of Agathys or the like before taking a short rest, as regardless of your opinion on whether or not casting a spell interrupts a long rest, casting a spell almost certainly interrupts a short rest.