PDA

View Full Version : Building the best Batman Wizard



Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-12, 04:53 PM
{Scrubbed}

We get a large number of threads complaining that the legendary goddamn batman wizard build is unworkable, or simply fulfils its purpose badly.

The purpose of this thread is to build that iconic batman wizard; to make it as good as we can, at its best points - game-breaking effects, near-invulnerability through preparation, and the ability to make use of pretty much any sort of effect.

So, without further ado, what should the build be?

I think that the best bet would be something along these lines:

Cloistered Cleric 1 (domains - planning, magic; feat - magical training) / Archivist 4 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / PrC that continues divine casting 5.

Salient abilities -

- can cast any arcane or divine spell that it can find a scroll, or spellcaster, of. Thus, all of the batman abilities, plus anything that druids, clerics, or domains get

- slightly better spell slots than a generalist wizard, the same number as a specialised one (but doesn't need to ban a school).

- can cast spells in armour (not that good, I realise, but things like soulfire are quite useful).

- Divine Metamagic. 'nuff said.

- Supernatural spell. Again ...

Any thoughts/refinements?

Jack Zander
2007-11-12, 04:55 PM
Making a batman wizard without taking a single level in wizard? Blasphemy!

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-12, 05:03 PM
Making a batman wizard without taking a single level in wizard? Blasphemy! Madness!

Madness ... this! is! CO!

Yeah, I know that this doesn't include any wizard, but the wizard is soft, squishy, and offers few class features save spell casting.

Rodimal
2007-11-12, 05:03 PM
Well, I went a different way when I build "Batman" for one of my campaigns. He's a gestalt character: Rogue/Ninja 7, Monk/Samurai 7, Vigilante 3 (ooc I couldn't figure a class to gestalt Vigilante with). He's the owner of a shipping company by day and a 'hero' called The Switch by night.


Out

Temp
2007-11-12, 05:05 PM
Artificer 20: Any Spell, any item, you only need time to prepare.



...Nifty gear has always been the Batman's real power.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 05:07 PM
Cloistered Clerics pick up a third bonus domain Knowledge right?

Batman is a lot easier to make as a Gestalt in a non gestalt world.

Rogue -1, Monk -2, Factotutm - 8,War Blade - 3, F-2, Crusader -3, Sword Sage -1//Druid -3, Wizard -3, MT -4, AH - 10 (or if permissable in campaign with a Bamboo Spirit Folk PC Beguiler -1 with Precocious Apprentice, Archivist-3, MT-6, AH - 10 (Beguiler - 17 spellcasting (level 8 spells but lots of spell utility options) and Archivist - 19 spellcasting).

Jack Zander
2007-11-12, 05:18 PM
Let's clarify. Are you trying to make batman, or a better batman wizard (with or without wizard levels)?

Grynning
2007-11-12, 05:21 PM
Just make sure whatever you build to give them the Bat-belt item out of complete arcane. I swear someone was giving a nod to the Batman wizard when they designed that.

Temp
2007-11-12, 05:21 PM
Rogue -1, Monk -2, Factotutm - 8,War Blade - 3, F-2, Crusader -3, Sword Sage -1//Druid -3, Wizard -3, MT -4, AH - 10 This strikes me as "just taking a bunch of classes for the hell of it." How about Artificer20//Factotum 20?

mostlyharmful
2007-11-12, 05:28 PM
Batman = Wiz20, anything beyound this is pure gravy.:smallbiggrin:

Edit: really Batman isn't just a wizard, or rather they don't have to be a wizard at all. It's the idea of an intelligent, Hyper-intelligent character that spends their downtime planning for anything that comes along. When you can have Int scores that translate to better than 250IQ points and reality warping power at your finger tips then the obvious question is rather how a DM can explain how any wizard (a class all you need to enter which is a reasonable Int score to begin with) can be built, played or portayed that ISN'T batman.

MCerberus
2007-11-12, 05:41 PM
It's not just the specifics it's a way of thought. You need to look at an ability/spell and ask yourself "can I horribly abuse this in a game breaking DM suiciding way?" If you can picture your DM having a stroke after bringing this ability out, and you can oddly smell cheddar in the air, get the ability.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-12, 05:47 PM
Let's clarify. Are you trying to make batman, or a better batman wizard (with or without wizard levels)?


Batman = Wiz20, anything beyound this is pure gravy.:smallbiggrin:

Edit: really Batman isn't just a wizard, or rather they don't have to be a wizard at all. It's the idea of an intelligent, Hyper-intelligent character that spends their downtime planning for anything that comes along. When you can have Int scores that translate to better than 250IQ points and reality warping power at your finger tips then the obvious question is rather how a DM can explain how any wizard (a class all you need to enter which is a reasonable Int score to begin with) can be built, played or portayed that ISN'T batman.

Yes, I do mean the ultra-wizard. Imagine Emperor Tippy's ideal object of worship, with a dash of Bears with Lasers thrown in.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-12, 06:02 PM
Yes, I do mean the ultra-wizard. Imagine Emperor Tippy's ideal object of worship, with a dash of Bears with Lasers thrown in.

Well, if you're hoping for an Ulta-wizard build then it'd be really hard to come up with as half of batmans schtick is to be taylered around what he's going to meet. which isn't hard with div and planer allies. so it becomes a question of building different spell lists and equipment rostas for each diferent sort of encounter. Then you get the question of how to portray a character with an Int score so far beyound the human range it is impossible to even envision (I've tried to play this and it's frankly impossible, all you can do is try to come up with ways that they'd hinder themselves such as forgetfulness, absentmeindedness, the desire for a challenge, etc..). A good place to start in this is to say that not only is metagaming ok, it's almost manditory. With Kowledge skills and Int soooo far up the scale there's nothing that isn't fair game. and no spell/monster/build/environment that's outside their experience and planning.

Now try to play that convincingly.:smallfrown:

Batman attempts should involve lots of ways of finding out information before the events in question take place as a start. preferrably without using spell slots. They should have a huge backlog of spell scrolls and the ability to Nova magic at the drop of a hat. the ability to research new spells that no-one else has ever seen is a big bonus. equipment should be synergiztic and effecient to the absolute maximum. and all feats/spells/gear should be as cose to the cheese threashold as possible. If the Dm lets you get away with it just once and then bans it, the obvious answer is to come up with multiple other plans that'd only work the once..... Batman is pretty much how a games tester approaches a new product.

Temp
2007-11-12, 06:10 PM
Yes, I do mean the ultra-wizard. Imagine Emperor Tippy's ideal object of worship, with a dash of Bears with Lasers thrown in.Wait, wasn't BWL...
Never mind.

Anyway, either character--the Batman or the UberMerlin--would likely work best with Artificer: that class is based on a broken concept. Its only limitations are cash flow and time: Neither Batman nor Tippy's Wizard have a scarcity of either.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 06:10 PM
Could you justify this? How does it trump Artificer20//Factotum 20?

IMO since equal wealth by level is a game standard, how well it is utilized generally has more to with how knowledgable a player is regarding the game so using equally knowledgeable players wealth by level should generally have a comparable impact in a game unless specifically targeted for specific situations like arena fights.

Break it down to the class basics. Strip both builds of their wealth by level. Druid spells and wild shaping will normally trump the build without gear. Even if both builds were also stripped of spellcasting and infusions the Druid side only has to pray to recover level 9 spellcasting which I believe will normally trump infusions in this situation.

My build uses 8 levels of Factotum and other classes so I obviously considered the merits of Factotum - 20 on one side of the build and I don't believe the ECS Artificer is as good a class for the build.

There are so many different ways to make Batman with all those options in game doubtful everyone will agree there is a single best Batman.

I see Batman as a spellcasting skill monkey. Take away all his magical gear and he is still very formiddable because he still has lots of options available to him via skills and class specials. He doesn't have to be the best at everything in a single class to be great, plenty of times just being good enough at something else to survive a non standard situation will be enought like being stripped of spellcasting and magical gear.

Artificer and Factotum are both nice classes. Extra actions with the level 8 Factotum class capstone special ability Cunning Surge is very nice IMO combined with spellcasting. As nice as the level 19 capstone Cunning Brillance is it comes at the opportunity cost of not taking something else in game (LIke Ur Priest or Chameleon - 10). Now if your PC kept acquiring Font of Inspiration feats which increase as more are acquired 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8........ he could do some amazing things in game but it comes at an opportunity cost of other feats in game.

Factotum has a dead level you did nothing with (a single level of Rogue, Barbarian or Monk (especially with the Caramendine Monk feat) would all give the build something more at basically no cost to the build).

Artificer is nice and a strong class but unless you are taking all those crafting feats to double your suggested wealth by level 760,000 GP to 1,520,000 GP (Artificer does not provide enough bonus experience points to do that either since it requires 30,400 experience points the 20 levels in Artificer do not supply by the way).

IMO a PC is less limited by acquring level 9 arcane and divine spellcasting and taking a single feat like PGtF Edit Mercantile Background feat which should give you a +50% wealth boost IMO to a build using standard wealth by Guidelines for what it does in game resell items for 75% vice 50% but that is not necessarily true in all games.

deadseashoals
2007-11-12, 06:22 PM
Kobold...divine...OMG I can't do it.

I like Illiterate Scribe's original build. I would like it better if I understood how it was actually legal - you need the ability to cast arcane and divine spells to enter Dweomer-cheater, how does Cloistered Cleric / Archivist qualify?

The best batman build at involves Wizard levels, to me, will always be Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. It just works.

JaxGaret
2007-11-12, 06:36 PM
Rogue -1, Monk -2, Factotutm - 8,War Blade - 3, F-2, Crusader -3, Sword Sage -1//Druid -3, Wizard -3, MT -4, AH - 10 (or if permissable in campaign with a Bamboo Spirit Folk PC Beguiler -1 with Precocious Apprentice, Archivist-3, MT-6, AH - 10 (Beguiler - 17 spellcasting (level 8 spells but lots of spell utility options) and Archivist - 19 spellcasting).

The second half of the gestalt is illegal.

No dual-casting or hybrid PrCs are allowed as per the gestalt rules.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 06:39 PM
Kobold...divine...OMG I can't do it.

The best batman build at involves Wizard levels, to me, will always be Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. It just works.

Building Pun Pun for a game requires a willing DM accomplice which generally isn't an option for most games.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-12, 06:47 PM
Kobold...divine...OMG I can't do it.

I like Illiterate Scribe's original build. I would like it better if I understood how it was actually legal - you need the ability to cast arcane and divine spells to enter Dweomer-cheater, how does Cloistered Cleric / Archivist qualify?

The best batman build at involves Wizard levels, to me, will always be Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. It just works.

Magical training - gain 3 0th level spell slots and a wizard spellbook, that you can scribe any of your arcane spells in. Then make them divine with alternate source spll :smallbiggrin:

Temp
2007-11-12, 06:51 PM
There are so many different ways to make Batman with all those options in game doubtful everyone will agree there is a single best Batman. Yeah, I agree. I was just trying to put up a simple build because yours seemed needlessly complex; the Martial Adept side, especially. It seems a lot of the "Stat X" threads will have somebody advocating a Archivist/Wizard/Psion/Beguiler/Mystic Theurge/Cerebremancer/Ultimate Magus build to say "Ford Prefect can do ANYTHING" when there's a simpler solution available.



The second half of the gestalt is illegal.

No dual-casting or hybrid PrCs are allowed as per the gestalt rules. Since there are no firm rules to Gestalt, it's really up to the DM and most won't disallow this sort of thing as long as the benefits of a class don't "cross" the build to advance spellcasting/manifesting/whatever else.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 06:59 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500&highlight=batman

/mandatory

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-12, 07:05 PM
Swordsage spellcaster variant. Take Celerity and Time Stop, along with Adaptive Style. Win initiative with Celerity, every time (thanks to Quick to Act, even against wizards, generally), and cast Time Stop. You get a minimum of two rounds, long enough to spend one dazed and one recovering all manuevers using Adaptive Style (including Celerity and Time Stop), and as many as five at best. Repeatedly use Celerity and Time Stop to keep an infinite loop going for as long as you need to drop as many other effects as you like, endlessly. Since, you know, you're repeatedly recovering all of your "spells." Endlessly.

Profit? :smallbiggrin:

deadseashoals
2007-11-12, 07:10 PM
Magical training - gain 3 0th level spell slots and a wizard spellbook, that you can scribe any of your arcane spells in. Then make them divine with alternate source spll :smallbiggrin:

Oh ho ho sweet :smallbiggrin: Wouldn't it be better then, to take a level of a prestige class that grants turn undead and advances casting (like Sacred Exorcist), rather than taking a level of Cloistered Cleric?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-12, 07:26 PM
Oh ho ho sweet :smallbiggrin: Wouldn't it be better then, to take a level of a prestige class that grants turn undead and advances casting (like Sacred Exorcist), rather than taking a level of Cloistered Cleric?

We need the 'magic' domain.


Swordsage spellcaster variant. Take Celerity and Time Stop, along with Adaptive Learning. Win initiative with Celerity, every time (thanks to Quick to Act, even against wizards, generally), and cast Time Stop. You get a minimum of two rounds, long enough to spend one dazed and one recovering all manuevers using Adaptive Learning (including Celerity and Time Stop), and as many as five at best. Repeatedly use Celerity and Time Stop to keep an infinite loop going for as long as you need to drop as many other effects as you like, endlessly. Since, you know, you're repeatedly recovering all of your "spells." Endlessly.

Profit? :smallbiggrin:

This is the other option - explosive runes + timestop FTW!

This is also what reminded me of the starmantle idea on the other thread.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 07:30 PM
The second half of the gestalt is illegal.

No dual-casting or hybrid PrCs are allowed as per the gestalt rules.

That is incorrect as per the D20 SRD:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

***Under RAW should be prohibited because they unduly complicate the game balance is not the same as prohibited. My build has less spellcasting than a straignt 20//20 full caster and is not unduly complicated IMO but if it wasn't permitted in a game lots of other options to make a Batman:

Beguiler - 19, Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelligence)//Archivist -20 (Before PRCs to the build, possibly Beguiler 18 or Archivist -19 with Spell Thief -1 with the Master Spell Thief feat depending on the game)

or

Archivist -19, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence)//Psion -20 with Spells to Power feat for little things like Miracle at 17 PP, (before PRCs to the build) Temporal Acceleration is a level 6 Power that can be stored in a Psionic Contingency.

or

Archivist- 15, PRC to taste-5//Specialist Wizard-7, MS-4 (with PAF), Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence) with PRC -8 to taste.

or

Factotum -8, Monk -1 (with Carmendine Monk feat), Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelliegence), Ur Priest - 10//Spec wizard -12, MS-4 (with PAF), PRC - 4 to taste.

or

Druid - 10, Planar Shepherd - 10//Archivist - 20 or Spec Wiz -12, MS- 4(3 early at levels 3, 4 & 5 because of Precocious Apprentice), ACM-2, PRC-2 top taste.

The Swordsage variant is nice if not limited to the schools of abjuration, evocation and transmutation as suggested in the adaption text of ToB page 20.

***Please note that PAF is short for the Precocious Apprentice Feat which allows a specialist wizard to take the Master Specialist PRC before level 6 in many games, if it wouldn't in your games I would lose the PRC in the build, four levels of Master Specialist provide a minor capstone.

brian c
2007-11-12, 07:39 PM
The second half of the gestalt is illegal.

No dual-casting or hybrid PrCs are allowed as per the gestalt rules.



Since there are no firm rules to Gestalt, it's really up to the DM and most won't disallow this sort of thing as long as the benefits of a class don't "cross" the build to advance spellcasting/manifesting/whatever else.


I'm usually the one who gets to say this, but (and as CASTLEMIKE quoted, I'm just being specific) gestalt rules do not explicitly ban dual-progression. It is recommended that DMs take a long hard look at them, but by RAW it's legal. PrC//PrC at the same time is banned by RAW though.

JaxGaret
2007-11-12, 08:02 PM
That is incorrect as per the D20 SRD:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

***Under RAW should be prohibited because they unduly complicate the game balance is not the same as prohibited.

Wow. Alright, sir. You are correct - by a very literal interpretation of the RAW.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 08:40 PM
Artificer 20: Any Spell, any item, you only need time to prepare.



...Nifty gear has always been the Batman's real power.

It depends a little on campaign down time. Unless the PC is making multiple different types of items at once with constructs, Factotum - 1, Artificer -1, +3X, Chameleon - 2, +8X will do the trick with the Chameleon open bonus feat at level 2 and maxing ranks in UMD for Extraordinary Artificer Item Creation.

If the PC is making lots of different types of items regularly:
Factotum - 3, Artificer -5, Chameleon -2, Ur Priest -10 gives the PC Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous, Craft Homunculus, Craft Magic Arms and Armor plus that open bonus feat which can be filled with a crafting feat and level 9 divine spell casting:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1

Kyace
2007-11-13, 01:58 AM
Beguiler - 19, Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelligence)//Archivist -20 (Before PRCs to the build, possibly Beguiler 18 or Archivist -19 with Spell Thief -1 with the Master Spell Thief feat depending on the game)
Why take 18 or 19 levels of beguiler and not take the last level for overcoming SRs?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 12:45 PM
So many options in game especially gestalting if I leave those base class levels open they can easily be modified and improved with a PRC as Temp posted earlier some of my builds seem needlessly complex.

I agree overcoming SR is a nice capstone. I don't know how what percentage of Beguilers make it to level 20 without taking PRCs but I would think it is rather small like most other classes with all the options available in PRCs. The nice thing about that example is while it works there are plenty of PRC options on either side of the build for a person to tweak it to their tastes and needs and PRCs are generally stronger than base classes.

In that example using No PRCs and Marshal - 1, I was bumping up spell DCs to both sides of the build with the Marshal Aura Motivate Intelligence since the Archivist side should have spells that ignore SR. I really don't want to drop the Archivist side spellcasting because I want to have as many level 9 spell options as possible to augment my fixed known Beguiler spells which don't really change for a Beguiler - 18, 19 or 20 (Just a single advanced learning at level 19) just how many I can cast so give me an extra Miracle if I'm unsure what is happening in game on the Archivist side. PRCing out of the Beguiler side would generally be best at levels 12 or 16 to pick up the most for the build.

If my PC starts facing lots of SR monsters that I'm ineffective against there is always the PHBII and retraining rules for straight Beguiler to pick up overcoming SR.

H0L7
2008-06-24, 12:52 AM
is this build kosher? does it by the rules actualy work this way able to cast arcane spells past the lvl 0 spells given by magical training?

Gorbash
2008-06-24, 04:29 AM
Reading this topic, I realised not many of you are familiar with the concept of Batman Wizard... First of all, it's for wizards. You can apply it to arhivists, sorcerers or whomever do you want, but the author of the guide intended it for wizards. So, when you say a Batman Wizard you actually mean Wizard, not Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 4/Dweomerkeeper 10/ PrC that continues divine casting 5. That's just a broken Archivist build. Call it Robin. Or Batgirl. But not Batman.

Second of all, if you take a look at LogicNinja's guide, you'll see that he specifically noted that broken spells should be avoided (polymorph, celerity etc), so this line:


You need to look at an ability/spell and ask yourself "can I horribly abuse this in a game breaking DM suiciding way?"

Actually isn't the basic premise of the Batman Wizard. Basic premise of a Batman Wizard is Don't take damaging spells, control the battlefield and that's it. No cloistered clerics, draconic polymorph mumbo jumbo. Just Wizard and just good and not broken spells.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-06-24, 08:58 AM
But an archivist IS a wizard if you do it right:smallbiggrin:

Roland St. Jude
2008-06-24, 09:06 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't revive old threads (older than six weeks & farther back than page 3). Please see "Thread Necromancy" in the Forum Rules.