Psionic Version of Eldritch Blast?

[kalos72]

I haven't spend much time in the 5e stuff, but I did read an article that documented how insane Eldritch Blast was.

Anything about making it psionic or a comparable psionic power? Hell does 5e even have psionics?

[Solusek]

Eldritch Blast is basically a warlock class feature, and the class is built around it being a core ability. Other cantrips are not supposed to be so powerful since other casting classes get to cast more than 2 spells per combat.

[Kane0]

Mind sliver is a psionic flavored cantrip, instead of notably higher than average damage output it has a better than average rider.
I believe Warlocks get access to it too.

Edit: if you want to power it up like Eldritch Blast just ask your DM if you can apply EB invocations to it.

[loki_ragnarock]

Mind sliver is a psionic flavored cantrip, instead of notably higher than average damage output it has a better than average rider.
I believe Warlocks get access to it too.

Edit: if you want to power it up like Eldritch Blast just ask your DM if you can apply EB invocations to it.

"Better than average" is a measured way of describing broken.

But OP for the OP might work out after all.

[Forechosen]

Mind sliver is a psionic flavored cantrip, instead of notably higher than average damage output it has a better than average rider.
I believe Warlocks get access to it too.

Edit: if you want to power it up like Eldritch Blast just ask your DM if you can apply EB invocations to it.

Dumb question, but this is the second time today I've read "rider" in a D&D context - what do people mean when they say this?

I'm sure I'm being a dunce here, I just can't work it out!

[kalos72]

So the thought appears to be that the whole EB line is OP?

[PhantomSoul]

Dumb question, but this is the second time today I've read "rider" in a D&D context - what do people mean when they say this?

I'm sure I'm being a dunce here, I just can't work it out!

Secondary effect (though honestly, the rider often seems to be a bigger attraction than damage, at least for me!)

[Darth Credence]

Dumb question, but this is the second time today I've read "rider" in a D&D context - what do people mean when they say this?

I'm sure I'm being a dunce here, I just can't work it out!

A rider would be an additional effect beyond the main one. In this case, the rider would be the victim gets a 1d4 penalty on their next saving throw. It's like a rider on a contract - a famous one is where in all concert contracts that Van Halen (an 80s band, and I just realized I'm old because I have to specify who they are) signed, they specified that they needed a bowl of M&Ms with absolutely no brown ones in their green room.

[Forechosen]

Secondary effect (though honestly, the rider often seems to be a bigger attraction than damage, at least for me!)


A rider would be an additional effect beyond the main one. In this case, the rider would be the victim gets a 1d4 penalty on their next saving throw. It's like a rider on a contract - a famous one is where in all concert contracts that Van Halen (an 80s band, and I just realized I'm old because I have to specify who they are) signed, they specified that they needed a bowl of M&Ms with absolutely no brown ones in their green room.

Oh I seee, thanks guys! I'm surprised I'd never seen it mentioned before, or maybe I had and just glazed over it. Still, you learn something new every day :smallsmile:

[Grod_The_Giant]

So the thought appears to be that the whole EB line is OP?
Not exactly.

On its own, Eldritch Blast is a good option. It has a better damage type than Fire Bolt, and getting more small attacks at higher levels gives you better consistency. But in isolation I'd lean more towards things like Frostbolt, Mind Sliver, and Vicious Mockery-- no cantrip is going to do very much damage without extensive class feature support, and I'd rather have a useful rider than a slightly-less-insignificant amount of damage.

The key there is "extensive class feature support," though. The Warlock has two very good ways of boosting damage per hit, Agonizing Blast and Hex. The former puts you on par with weapon-using martial for consistent damage; combined with the latter you've got something on par with a Fighter drawing on their class and subclass features.

On the Warlock chassis that's fine. The class only gets two spells per short rest; dedicating one of them (and your concentration slot) to bonus damage is a significant cost. You're not a spellcaster so much as you are an archery-Fighter who can throw the odd curse or buff around. A single-class Warlock is more likely to get into trouble for being underpowered because the party doesn't take enough short rests than they are to get yelled at for doing extra damage.

But in 5e, cantrips scale with character level, not class, so the Warlock 20 and the Fighter-20-with-Magic-Initiate will do exactly the same damage with each casting of Eldritch Blast. The issue is that the Warlock's attack-boosting class features also scale with character level, not class, and come online very early.

In short: for the price of two class levels, anyone can pick up an offensive ability that's supposed to be a class' main combat ability. Suddenly the Bard has phenomenal support spells and an excellent offense. The Sorcerer can burn through their spell slots tossing around Fireballs and have a very powerful at-will.

Tl;dr: Eldritch Blast is supposed to be the Warlock class' main combat ability, but can be added onto other classes with compatively little investment.

EDIT: Also, no, 5e doesn't really have psionics. There are a couple options--feats, races, subclasses--that play with the thematics, but it's just reflavored magic with the odd tweak like "you can cast Mage Hand but it's invisible, ooOOOoo." The developer's attempt at an actual subsystem, the Mystic, died a messy death years ago.

[loki_ragnarock]

So the thought appears to be that the whole EB line is OP?

Eldritch blast is basically fine; damage only gets you so far in isolation. Invocations can make it interesting.

Mind Sliver is pretty much OP. Adding invocations on top is madness.

[kalos72]

So we are saying that a level 20 Psion that takes a 2 level dip in warlock, can get a lv 22 scaled cantrip x 4 rays.

Add AB, for CHA modifiers

RB pushes back 10 PER blast - use all 4 on the same target and push back 40'

ES doubles range

Sniper Feat doubles again to 600'

Are invocations class level or character level? Can I get more incantations at a 2lv dip?



https://www.quora.com/I-don-t-understand-how-the-Eldritch-Blast-is-strong-in-D-D-5e-It-does-1D10-damage-How-is-it-good-for-a-warlock

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yup! Invocations are class level based, so you can't get anything requiring "Warlock level 5" or whatnot on the dip. You only get two with the two-level dip, but you can learn more with the Eldritch Initiate feat.

Not sure what you're thinking of when you say "psion," though--there's nothing of that name in 5e. Aberrant Mind Sorcerer is probably your best bet.

[kalos72]

Gotcha, no psions.

SO 2 lv dip, 4 rays that use CHA mods for dmg per ray and the 10' pushback per ray.

Add 1 feat Sniper and double range to 600 after Eldritch Spear.

Another other feats to pump up damage? 1d10 +CHA mod x isnt awesome...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not feats, but there are spells--at low levels Hex adds 1d6 per attack, and at higher levels, Spirit Shroud can bump that up to 2d8. And if you are doing a Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18 build, you can use the Quicken Spell metamagic on Eldritch Blast pretty easily. (Consider: Eldritch Blast alone is comparable to a Fighter with a longbow; Quicken Spell gets you (sorcerer level) Action Surges a day, and that's before recycling spell slots)

[kalos72]

Yea, I am just thinking about the 2 level dip vs anything longer.

Other then 4 beams at 600ft...its underwhelming. No?

At level 2 I get it but still...am I missing the dmg here?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yea, I am just thinking about the 2 level dip vs anything longer.

Other then 4 beams at 600ft...its underwhelming. No?

At level 2 I get it but still...am I missing the dmg here?
I'm guessing you're used to 3.5 numbers?

Let's say you're a level 20 fighter with a heavy crossbow. That's four attacks at 1d10+5, same as your Warlock. They've got an extra +2 to hit thanks to the Archery Fighting Style; adding a subclass like Arcane Archer using one of your two Arcane Shots/short rest (to parallel the Warlock using one spell slot) and we've got... oh... (4 attacks)*(75% hit chance)*(1d10+5)+(4d6)=45.5 damage, average.

Compare to a straight Warlock 20 using Eldritch Blast. That's four attacks at 1d10+5, just like the Warlock, but Spirit Shroud gives us an extra 2d8 per shot. Using the same logic, (4 attacks)*(65% hit chance)*(1d10+2d8+5)=50.7 average damage.

Now let's say you're a Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18. Same 1d10+5 damage... and you're probably stuck with Hex since Spirit Shroud isn't on the Sorcerer list, but you can Quicken Spell to do it all over as a bonus action eighteen times a day. Or way, way more if you convert spell slots to Sorcery Points. (8 attacks)*(65% hit chance)*(1d10+1d6+5)=72.8 average damage.

Sure, the Fighter can use Action Surge and probably has a better magic weapon... but you've got freaking 9th level spell slots.

[kalos72]

Yeah man...we game a modified 3.5 but one of our PC's is asking about dipping to warlock. I know the mechanics aren't there but am willing to entertain the idea for a home brew.

So you are saying that with Quicken you can cast EB/ES twice per round?

I am looking at this as just a 2 lv dip for just a great ranged attack...for a level 10 PC thats a reroll.


Thanks by the way for all the time helping me here. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah man...we game a modified 3.5 but one of our PC's is asking about dipping to warlock. I know the mechanics aren't there but am willing to entertain the idea for a home brew.
I'm... confused. You've got a 3.5e game, and a player is asking about taking a level or two of a 5e class? :smallconfused: Are you sure they're not talking about the 3.5 version in Complete Arcana?


Thanks by the way for all the time helping me here. :)
You've very welcome :)

[kalos72]

Nah, he wants me to replicate it in a 3.5 game and tie it back to the groups patron. Sort of like a pack...

I just need to understand the potential and ways I need to limit it.

[JNAProductions]

Nah, he wants me to replicate it in a 3.5 game and tie it back to the groups patron. Sort of like a pack...

I just need to understand the potential and ways I need to limit it.

I'd recommend asking in the 3.5 section, then.

5E and 3.5, while pretty similar in the vast ocean of TTRPGs, are pretty distinct within the D&D niche. And their numbers are very different.

[kalos72]

I will, thanks.

I was just looking to see what it was capable of in 5e, because thats the effect the PC was asking about.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nah, he wants me to replicate it in a 3.5 game and tie it back to the groups patron. Sort of like a pack...

I just need to understand the potential and ways I need to limit it.
So he wants a 3.5 class with Pact Magic style "very few spells at a time, but full power and quick to recharge" casting? Because again, there is a Warlock class already in the edition... It's where the archetype started, even.

The best way I can think to do that in 3.5 is... well, psionics, actually. Take an... Ardent, maybe. Cut their psi points down to 1/3 the normal amount, figure out how many fully augmented powers that is, and declare that they can use so many powers before running dry. Have their powers always augmented to the limit for their caster level, and let them refresh their castings by resting for one hour.

(That's completely off-the-cuff, crude, and god only knows how the balance would be--it's been depressingly many years since I worked on 3.5 homebrew and I have no instincts anymore--but it's still probably better than trying to back-port something from 5e)

Edit: Taking inspiration is fine, but don't even think about copying numbers from 5e to 3.5 (or vice versa), they're not just "not in the same ballpark," they're playing different games entirely.

The 5e Warlock is... well, it's an attempt to cram the 3.5 Warlock into a rigidly vancean magic system. It has some of the 3.5 class' at-will magic, but not really enough. It's sort of a simpler caster, but not really. It switches from being totally rest-independent to being phenomenally sensitive to changes in the expected number of encounters/rest. It's a weird, quirky mess of a class; I'm honestly not sure what the 5e version has that's worth back-porting.

(well, maybe the "multiple rays at higher levels" bit. Letting 3.5 Warlocks full attack with their Eldritch Blast is a good easy houserule to fix their damage issues)

[Kane0]

Nah, he wants me to replicate it in a 3.5 game and tie it back to the groups patron. Sort of like a pack...

I just need to understand the potential and ways I need to limit it.

May want to raise a new thread about converting between 3.5 and 5e. It isnt too hard but you do have to adjust your assumptipns

[Dark.Revenant]

Eldritch blast is basically fine; damage only gets you so far in isolation. Invocations can make it interesting.

Mind Sliver is pretty much OP. Adding invocations on top is madness.

Mind Sliver is spending an action to, even if you consider fairly ideal circumstances, make the target about 25% more likely to fail a more important saving throw—but only if they fail a different saving throw first. It's still a powerful rider, but hardly broken. In general, I think Mind Sliver is in the top five best unmodified damage cantrips. However, I'd hardly call it OP. Allowing a player to upgrade it is no big deal; getting a measly +CHA to damage, for instance, would only bump its damage rating by one grade (to a C), while it bumps Eldritch Blast by more than two grades.

Damage
F-class: Sapping Sting, Vicious Mockery
D-class: Frostbite, Infestation, Mind Sliver, Thorn Whip
C-class: Chill Touch, Lightning Lure, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, Shocking Grasp
B-class: Acid Splash-, Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt, Primal Savagery, Sword Burst-, Thunderclap-, Word of Radiance-
A-class: Poison Spray, Toll the Dead--
S-class: Agonizing Blast+, Booming Blade, Create Bonfire++, Green-Flame Blade-
ex. Vicious Mockery: d4 to 4d4 = 2.5 to 10 (6.25)
ex. Frostbite: d6 to 4d6 = 3.5 to 14 (8.75)
ex. Sacred Flame: d8 to 4d8 = 4.5 to 18 (11.25)
Acid Splash: d6 to 2d6 to 4d6 to 8d6 = 3.5 to 7 to 14 to 28 (13.13)
ex. Fire Bolt: d10 to 4d10 = 5.5 to 22 (13.75)
ex. Sword Burst*: d6 to 2d6 to 4d6 to 8d6 = 3.5 to 7 to 14 to 28 (14.58)
Toll the Dead***: d8 to d12 to 4d8 to 4d12 = 4.5 to 6.5 to 18 to 26 (15)
Poison Spray: d12 to 4d12 = 6.5 to 26 (16.25)
Green-Flame Blade: MinWpn to MaxWpn+CAM to to 3d8+MinWpn to 6d8+MaxWpn+CAM = 3.5 to 13 to 17 to 44 (19.38)
Booming Blade: MinWpn to 1d8+MaxWpn to 3d8+MinWpn to 7d8+MaxWpn = 3.5 to 14.5 to 17 to 43.5 (19.63)
Agonizing Blast: d10+MinCAM to d10+MaxCAM to 4d10+(4xMinCam) to 4d10+(4xMaxCAM) = 6.5 to 8.5 to 26 to 42 (20.75)
Create Bonfire**: d8 to 3d8 to 4d8 to 12d8 = 4.5 to 13.5 to 18 to 54 (22.5)

*Average of 1 target vs 2 targets because >2 targets is rare for most casters, but the 2 targets has double weight because you wouldn't want to use these cantrips against a single creature
**Average of initial target only vs initial target plus two times procced
***Triple weight on higher damage because it is so easy to proc

Damage Type
F-class: Infestation, Poison Spray
D-class: Green-Flame Blade
C-class: Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Frostbite, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost
B-class: Booming Blade-, Lightning Lure, Shocking Grasp
A-class: Acid Splash+, Chill Touch-, Mind Sliver, Primal Savagery+, Sapping Sting-, Toll the Dead-, Vicious Mockery
S-class: Eldritch Blast+, Sacred Flame, Sword Burst+, Thorn Whip-, Thunderclap--, Word of Radiance
Poison: Infestation, Poison Spray (469)
Weapon+Fire: Green-Flame Blade (420, 256, 428, 262, 428, or 260—~342)
Fire: Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Produce Flame (228)
Cold: Frostbite, Ray of Frost (228)
Weapon+Thunder: Booming Blade (332, 73, 341, 80, 339, or 76—~207)
Lightning: Lightning Lure, Shocking Grasp (177)
Necrotic: Chill Touch, Sapping Sting, Toll the Dead (129)
Psychic: Mind Sliver, Vicious Mockery (101)
Acid: Acid Splash, Primal Savagery (95)
Thunder: Thunderclap (43)
Piercing: Thorn Whip (37)
Radiant: Sacred Flame, Word of Radiance (22)
Force: Eldritch Blast, Sword Burst (7)

Range
F-class: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade+, Primal Savagery, Shocking Grasp, Sword Burst, Thunderclap, Word of Radiance
D-class: Lightning Lure, Poison Spray-
C-class: Infestation, Produce Flame, Sapping Sting, Thorn Whip
B-class: Acid Splash, Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Vicious Mockery
A-class: Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt
S-class: Eldritch Spear

Components
F-class: Create Bonfire (Concentration, V/S)
C-class: Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt, Frostbite, Poison Spray, Produce Flame, Primal Savagery+, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, Sapping Sting, Shocking Grasp, Thunderclap+, Toll the Dead (V/S or S)
B-class: Booming Blade+, Green-Flame Blade+, Infestation, Thorn Whip (V/S/M or S/M)
A-class: Lightning Lure, Mind Sliver, Sword Burst, Vicious Mockery, Word of Radiance- (V/M or V)

Targeted Defense
D-class: Frostbite, Infestation, Lightning Lure+, Poison Spray, Sapping Sting, Thunderclap, Word of Radiance (Strength saving throw or Constitution saving throw)
C-class: Acid Splash, Create Bonfire, Sacred Flame+, Sword Burst, Toll the Dead+, Vicious Mockery+ (Dexterity saving throw or Wisdom saving throw)
B-class: Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt, Mind Sliver, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost (Intelligence saving throw, Charisma saving throw, or ranged spell attack)
A-class: Booming Blade-, Green-Flame Blade-, Primal Savagery, Shocking Grasp+, Thorn Whip (Melee spell attack or melee weapon attack)

Rider
F-class: Acid Splash, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, Green-Flame Blade, Poison Spray, Primal Savagery, Sacred Flame, Sword Burst-, Thunderclap--, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance (No beneficial rider—only damage)
D-class: Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt+, Produce Flame (Rider with little to no direct combat benefit)
C-class: Infestation (Unreliable rider)
B-class: Chill Touch-, Lance of Lethargy, Mind Sliver+, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp+, Thorn Whip (Powerful-but-situational rider or average strength rider)
A-class: Frostbite, Grasp of Hadar, Lightning Lure, Vicious Mockery (Powerful rider)
S-class: Repelling Blast+, Sapping Sting (High-impact, strategy-enabling rider)

Overall
F-class: Infestation
D-class: Poison Spray-, Sapping Sting++, Thunderclap
C-class: Frostbite-, Produce Flame-, Word of Radiance
B-class: Acid Splash-, Fire Bolt+, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Primal Savagery-, Ray of Frost-, Sacred Flame--, Shocking Grasp-, Sword Burst--, Thorn Whip++, Toll the Dead+, Vicious Mockery
A-class: Booming Blade, Chill Touch-, Create Bonfire-, Eldritch Blast, Mind Sliver-
EX-class: Agonizing Repelling Spear
Damage is weighed 2x
Eldritch Blast: 20.3 to 31.5 (A to EX)
Booming Blade: 19.7 (A)
Chill Touch: 19.4 (A-)
Mind Sliver: 19.3 (A-)
Create Bonfire: 19 (A-)
Thorn Whip: 18.7 (B++)
Fire Bolt: 18.3 (B+)
Toll the Dead: 18 (B+)
Green-Flame Blade: 17.7 (B)
Vicious Mockery: 17.6 (B)
Lightning Lure: 17.3 (B)
Ray of Frost: 17 (B-)
Acid Splash: 16.7 (B-)
Primal Savagery: 16.6 (B-)
Shocking Grasp: 16.6 (B-)
Sword Burst: 16.4 (B--)
Sacred Flame: 16.3 (B--)
Word of Radiance: 15.1 (C)
Frostbite: 14 (C-)
Produce Flame: 14 (C-)
Sapping Sting: 13.7 (D++)
Thunderclap: 12.7 (D)
Poison Spray: 11.7 (D-)
Infestation: 10 (F)

[loki_ragnarock]

Mind Sliver is spending an action to, even if you consider fairly ideal circumstances, make the target about 25% more likely to fail a more important saving throw—but only if they fail a different saving throw first. It's still a powerful rider, but hardly broken. In general, I think Mind Sliver is (narrowly) the best unmodified damage cantrip, narrowly beating out Thorn Whip and Chill Touch. However, I'd hardly call it OP. Allowing a player to upgrade it is no big deal; getting a measly +CHA to damage, for instance, would only bump its damage rating by one grade (to a C), while it bumps Eldritch Blast by more than two grades.

In a bounded accuracy system, being able to throw a save penalty on creatures that - typically - don't add their proficiency to saves is a sizable boost for any caster. Sure, Legendary Resistance and all that, but you weren't throwing save or suck encounter enders against those targets anyway. But an Int save - probably hardest general save for monsters in the game - as the prerequisite isn't at all an issue when you're looking to lay on a series of riders; adding some damage is lame, but being able to fairly reliably do the other eldritch blast riders in addition to the terribly powerful rider the cantrip already comes with is a bridge too far.

Because I like to look at the MM to challenge my own suppositions, here's some information I used to produce that opinion.


Int Saves Proficiency:
Aboleth
Solar
Beholder
Death Tyrant
Cambion
Demilich
Nalfeshnee
Yochlol
Bone Devil
Empyrean
Dao
Efreeti
Githyanki Warrior
Githyanki Knight
Githzerai Monk
Githzerai Zerth
Hobgoblin Warlord
Kraken
Lich
Mindflayer
Mummy Lord
Guardian Naga
Sahuagin Baron
Androsphinx
Tarrasque
Arcanoloth
Archmage
Mage
=28


Psychic Resistance/Immunity:
Animated Armor/Flying Sword/Rug of Smothering – Note, Int is 1. No proficiency.
Couatl
Demilich
All 4 Golem
Revenant
Androsphinx
Gynosphinx
= 12


Intelligence Penalty:
Animated Armor/Flying Sword/Rug of Smothering
Ankheg
Basilisk
Behir
Needle/Twig/Vine Blight
Bugbear
Bulette
Bullywug
Carrion Crawler
Centaur
Chimera
Chull
Cockatrice
Crawling Claw
Cyclops
Darkmantle
Dretch
Goristro
Hezrou
Manes
Quasit
Vrock
Bearded Devil
Lemure
All 6 Dinosaurs
Displacer Beast
Adult/Young/Wyrmling White Dragon
All 4 Elementals
Ettercap
Ettin
Formian
All 3 Fungus… should these count as monsters or hazards? Ah, well.
Gargoyle
Ghoul
Frost Giant
Hill Giant
Gibbering Mouther
Gnoll
Gnoll Pack Lord
All 4 Golem
Gorgan
Grick
Grick Alpha
Griffon
Grimlock
Harpy
Hell Hound
Hippogriff
Hook Horror
Hydra
Kobold
Winged Kobold
Lizardfolk
Magmin
Manticore
4 of 6 Mephits
Merrow
Mimic
Minotaur
Monodrone/Duodrone/Tridrone
Mummy
Myconid Sprout
Quaggoth Spore Servant
Ogres
Half Ogre
All 4 Oozes
Orc
Orc Eye of Gruumsh
Otyugh
Owlbear
Peryton
Piercer
Purple Worm
Quaggoth
Remorhaz
Young Remorhaz
Roc
Roper
Rust Monster
Fire Snake
Shadow
Shambling Mound
Shield Guardian
All 3 Skeleton
3 of 6 Slaad
Stirge
Tarrasque
Thri-Kreen
Troglodyte
Troll
Umber Hulk
Wyvern
Yeti
Abominable Yeti
Mezzoloth
All 3 zombies
92 out of 95 animals.
Berserker
Tribal Warrior
= 224

Psychic Vulnerability:
Flumph

For the damage type, it's better than fire. But not better than force. But the damage is largely irrelevant when compared to the rider; basically the rider hits everything that fails the save.

And what fails that int save is *alot* of entries. Many of the things that have int penalties have substantial penalties, and I'd be willing to bet that even omitting the animal entries it would average to a -2 penalty for the category or lower. Everything with an int penalty that isn't offsetting it with proficiency (Tarrasque is the only thing that comes to mind) is essentially the same as having an AC of less than 10; it's going to hit most things and bestow a very powerful effect that negates whatever good stats they might have.
The game wasn't really designed around an at will intelligence save effect, and it shows.

If it had come with qualifiers like "creatures immune to charm, psychic damage, or have an int of 3 or lower are unaffected" I'd maybe buy it as a cantrip. As it is? Bleck.

But an incredibly powerful rider coming off the most glaringly weak save in the MM? And then adding even more riders to that? Yuck. It's already okay for a warlock without the ability to add additional riders; when you've only got two spell slots to shift the tide of battle, making sure they stick has a schtick. It's particularly bad on sorcerers, but letting warlocks add push, shove, and slow effects to something that is surefire to hit against a majority of entries in the Monster Manual isn't a great look either.

[Kane0]

It's particularly bad on sorcerers, but letting warlocks add push, shove, and slow effects to something that is surefire to hit against a majority of entries in the Monster Manual isn't a great look either.

Isn't that already the case once EB gets multiple attacks? You're trading a better damage type and a fair chunk of damage (extra instances of +Cha and lower damage die) in order to set up a combo with either one of your few spells or more importantly some other party member's. I wouldn't consider it completely out of line

[Dark.Revenant]

In a bounded accuracy system, being able to throw a save penalty on creatures that - typically - don't add their proficiency to saves is a sizable boost for any caster. Sure, Legendary Resistance and all that, but you weren't throwing save or suck encounter enders against those targets anyway. But an Int save - probably hardest general save for monsters in the game - as the prerequisite isn't at all an issue when you're looking to lay on a series of riders; adding some damage is lame, but being able to fairly reliably do the other eldritch blast riders in addition to the terribly powerful rider the cantrip already comes with is a bridge too far.

Because I like to look at the MM to challenge my own suppositions, here's some information I used to produce that opinion.

For the damage type, it's better than fire. But not better than force. But the damage is largely irrelevant when compared to the rider; basically the rider hits everything that fails the save.

And what fails that int save is *alot* of entries. Many of the things that have int penalties have substantial penalties, and I'd be willing to bet that even omitting the animal entries it would average to a -2 penalty for the category or lower. Everything with an int penalty that isn't offsetting it with proficiency (Tarrasque is the only thing that comes to mind) is essentially the same as having an AC of less than 10; it's going to hit most things and bestow a very powerful effect that negates whatever good stats they might have.
The game wasn't really designed around an at will intelligence save effect, and it shows.

If it had come with qualifiers like "creatures immune to charm, psychic damage, or have an int of 3 or lower are unaffected" I'd maybe buy it as a cantrip. As it is? Bleck.

But an incredibly powerful rider coming off the most glaringly weak save in the MM? And then adding even more riders to that? Yuck. It's already okay for a warlock without the ability to add additional riders; when you've only got two spell slots to shift the tide of battle, making sure they stick has a schtick. It's particularly bad on sorcerers, but letting warlocks add push, shove, and slow effects to something that is surefire to hit against a majority of entries in the Monster Manual isn't a great look either.

A -1 to -4 penalty to the saving throw of your choice is, yes, occasionally a very useful feature to have. That's why I scored it as an A-grade rider. It's not completely gonzo good like pushing someone 40 feet away or knocking someone prone (granting both potentially multiple instances of attack advantage AND effectively halving their speed in order to stand back up), but it would certainly serve you well.

Targeting Intelligence is pretty good. I grade it a B, the highest I'm willing to give a save-and-nothing-happens cantrip. Yes, many enemies have terrible Intelligence saves. Most of those enemies are pretty easy to debilitate with saves anyway; you don't need Mind Sliver for those guys. Few monsters are really good at Intelligence saves, which is why I'm not grading it lower. The trouble with saves is, yes, the presence of Legendary Resistance, Magic Resistance, but also that you have many ways to boost attack rolls (high modifiers, advantage, etc.) compared to lowering enemy saving throws and raising your own DC.

[Arkhios]

Eldritch Blast is basically a warlock class feature, and the class is built around it being a core ability. Other cantrips are not supposed to be so powerful since other casting classes get to cast more than 2 spells per combat.

Bold, but not true. Warlock as a class is not built around Eldritch Blast; only a few eldritch invocations (all of which are entirely optional) are built around Eldritch Blast. That's it. The class itself, along with all of its sub-classes, do not care about whether you have Eldritch Blast or not.

Whether a warlock is competetive without Eldritch Blast is a different thing altogether.

[Kane0]

I would say it is. Bladelock aside EB is an above average centrip, and cantrips were designed to be a viable use of your action even as a last resort for casters. Plus you have actual spellcasting (wacky as it is) and invocations to round out the remainder so even if you aren't top of the game in terms of damage, control, utility etc you can still contribute just fine to most if not all functions your party might care about.