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Tor the Fallen
2007-11-12, 05:03 PM
I was reading through 3.0's masters of the wild, and found that both a foe hunters SR vs. her chosen foe stacks with all other SR, as does the Forsaker's. The bloodhound gets see invisibility as an ex (I think) at level seven.

Something with wings ranger2/barb1/forsaker 6/foehunter 4/bloodhound7. That gets you 35 SR, 6 ability boosts, and you can see invisibility. Make sure you take arcanists as your chosen enemy.

Won't stop a dedicated mage on taking you out, but if you got the jump on one, he'd be surprised to find most of his spells failing.


If it changed in 3.5, let me know.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-12, 05:49 PM
I was reading through 3.0's masters of the wild, and found that both a foe hunters SR vs. her chosen foe stacks with all other SR, as does the Forsaker's. The bloodhound gets see invisibility as an ex (I think) at level seven.

Something with wings ranger2/barb1/forsaker 6/foehunter 4/bloodhound7. That gets you 35 SR, 6 ability boosts, and you can see invisibility. Make sure you take arcanists as your chosen enemy.

Won't stop a dedicated mage on taking you out, but if you got the jump on one, he'd be surprised to find most of his spells failing.


If it changed in 3.5, let me know.

Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 06:03 PM
Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

There is no 3.5 version of the foe hunter I am aware of, but if you want a good mage hunter build, I thought this one up a while ago:

Be a githyanki (for the dim door SLA and SR mainly, also they are cool):

ranger 1/fighter 2/hexblade 3/crimson scourge X (found in CityScape), Occult Slayer (found in Cwar)5. Take occult slayer up ASAP, the crimson scourge levels are 'filler' before and after the PrC.

Make sure you take Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection in your feats. All it hurts you for your SLA is distance you are able to blink with Dim Door (who really cares?).

JaxGaret
2007-11-12, 06:09 PM
I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-13, 12:30 AM
I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

I disagree, very tough to kill certainly but not impossible or only by other mages. Wizards are one of the most powerful PCs in game, particularly in a duel because the game is being broken with one of the most powerful PCs in controlled conditions, a PC who is very good at going Nova in controlled conditions for a single encounter. They can still be surprised by the tactics of other opponents.

Here is a nice thread on the lock fighter:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 12:58 AM
Here is a nice thread on the lock fighter:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

Heh, Aelyrinth's Lockdown build, which I see him bring up time and time again over on the Wiz forums. Funny you should link to that.

It only really works against other characters who are focused on melee. It's not particularly good against your typical full caster, it was made specifically to defeat a melee-oriented Druid.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 01:00 AM
Frankly, though, I'll take it.

It's so nice to see a pure fighter win at ANYTHING when compared to casters. Allow him his (no doubt very brief) moment.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-13, 01:14 AM
It's a nice build for a fighter and a nice addition to an adventuring party where most primary spellcasters encountered won't be customized to handle it. One reason is the fighter will be accompanied by a full caster or two. It even has room for personal tweaking to taste. I like 3 levels of Factotum and Marshal -1 with Motivate Intelligence.

With LA buydown as an option a +2 LA Karsite or Phrenic might be a good candidate to build it around.

BizzaroStormy
2007-11-13, 01:36 AM
Raptoran w/Half-Iron Golem Template and a melee class.

Kantolin
2007-11-13, 02:33 AM
... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

To be fair, wizards are somewhat squishy. If the first action the wizard does is something he figures will work that is offensive, it may spell death for the wizard if he discovers that his foe has a ridiculous amount of spell resistance and/or saves.

May. After all, if the wizard begins with a defensive move a'la teleport, that's pretty much a win.

What I'm saying, I suppose, is that while it's impossible for there to be a fighter-type build that counters anything a mage can do, it's possible to create a fighter-type build that can counter a decent amount of things a mage can do.

So I'd focus on upping your saves, upping your touch AC, and upping your mobility. Being able to make the enemy wizard make fortitude saves would also help, but that's not nearly as focal as the above.

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 10:05 AM
Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

Well... at 9th level Monks are immune to poison so cloud kill will not effect them at all.

could you make your mage killer a 9th level monk??

Kizara
2007-11-13, 10:11 AM
Well... at 9th level Monks are immune to poison so cloud kill will not effect them at all.

could you make your mage killer a 9th level monk??

Becoming immune to cloudkill is stupidly easy.

There's alot of ways to be 1) Undead 2) not have to breath (like 3 different items, 1 being an Ioun Stone) 2) be immune to posions (monk, druid, some PrCs, some spells).

As for forcecage cheese, that's what blinking githyanki antimages are for. :)

mostlyharmful
2007-11-13, 10:21 AM
the best mage killer build is a full caster wizard, there's just too many ways a wizard can escape, defend, sense, cripple or circumvent anything that doesn't have full casting. from mental domination to flight to teleportation to contingency, save-or effects, illusions and so on and so on.

A non-caster mage killer can come up with a limited range of tricks to attack with and a number of abilities to defeat certain types of wizard response, but nowhere near the versatility nessercary to face off against someone who can effectively change their class features with 8 hours notice. in anouther plane. while mindblanked. with full information on their prospective stalker.

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 10:25 AM
the best mage killer build is a full caster wizard, there's just too many ways a wizard can escape, defend, sense, cripple or circumvent anything that doesn't have full casting. from mental domination to flight to teleportation to contingency, save-or effects, illusions and so on and so on.

A non-caster mage killer can come up with a limited range of tricks to attack with and a number of abilities to defeat certain types of wizard response, but nowhere near the versatility nessercary to face off against someone who can effectively change their class features with 8 hours notice. in anouther plane. while mindblanked. with full information on their prospective stalker.

You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

Well, how can a mage kill another mage if that other mage knows that the mage is going to kill him? can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?


See, now this guy is saying a mage will do other things. The second poster said a mage will always do timestop/forcecage/cloudkill.

Well, the mage has one chance to fight or flee and she is dead when the mage killer beats it to a bloody pulp.

Telonius
2007-11-13, 10:26 AM
Becoming immune to cloudkill is stupidly easy.

There's alot of ways to be 1) Undead 2) not have to breath (like 3 different items, 1 being an Ioun Stone) 2) be immune to posions (monk, druid, some PrCs, some spells).

As for forcecage cheese, that's what blinking githyanki antimages are for. :)

Don't have the books on me - would Warforged be automatically immune to the spell?

Telonius
2007-11-13, 10:29 AM
You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

Well, how can a mage kill another mage if that other mage knows that the mage is going to kill him? can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?

The initial mage would have to word his contingency very carefully. Though that does raise an interesting question - if two mages have Contingencied Timestop, Celerity, etc., up at the same time, what happens? Does the multiverse implode, who goes first?:smallconfused:

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 10:39 AM
The initial mage would have to word his contingency very carefully. Though that does raise an interesting question - if two mages have Contingencied Timestop, Celerity, etc., up at the same time, what happens? Does the multiverse implode, who goes first?:smallconfused:

Don't get me wrong. I don't know that much about high level stuff. Just reading the Mages are #1 post and are alway ready for an assassination seems a little much.

You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

if you do not have that set-up what makes you think other mages do?

In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-13, 10:48 AM
Don't get me wrong. I don't know that much about high level stuff. Just reading the Mages are #1 post and are alway ready for an assassination seems a little much.

You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

if you do not have that set-up what makes you think other mages do?

In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

Contingency, Celerity(if used) and some regular divination (or some bound outsiders to continuously spam their SLAs to know if you're going to be attacked) mean that a high level wizard should be able to act and useually know when an attack is coming. If the one that is favoured is the one that chooses the timing of the attack and the terrain then I'm betting on the guy with the Int of 34 and the ability to teleport and planeshift. Betwix times he's living in a tower surrounded by wards and safeguads, in anouther dimension. A high level mage has enough spell slots to have some measures of defensive spells up at all times, against anything attacking not just this hyperthetical stalker.

A mid level and low level mage has significantly more problems with maintaining security but then that's what a party is for, and they can still sleep in rope tricks or mordenkains secure huts or what have you.

My point isn't that wizards are the be all and end all, just that they have the best chance with counterspelling and dispeling to try to weaken anouther caster. then a non-caster would be useful to go job the commoner with a good will save. Not straight off the bat. They'd get creamed.

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 10:50 AM
You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

That's because the Mage can always go first, and usually does know.


can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

Well given Dispel Magic and about a 100 different ways to teleport/be immune to cloudkill, yes.


And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?

Various different non-casters can get out of it/ignore it. However, that's not really a big threat. See below.


See, now this guy is saying a mage will do other things. The second poster said a mage will always do timestop/forcecage/cloudkill.

A Wizard is rarely if ever going to use that combo. It is trotted out because it is one of a very few ways that something can be killed with absolutely zero randomness. (Unless they have somewhere upwards of 20 con, then 20 straight ones on a d6 (or twos that get saved against) will still leave it alive.)

However, in reality a Wizard specializes in being untouchable, and then using many different types of spells that solve many different types of problems.

To actually have any shot against a Wizard, you must be able to reach him and hurt him, that knocks out 90% of "anti-caster" builds right there.

You must also be have a high touch AC/high Will and Fort saves/be able to deal with a Evard's Black Tentacles somehow, since any one of those failures could easily result in you being neutralized in a single round.


Well, the mage has one chance to fight or flee and she is dead when the mage killer beats it to a bloody pulp.

90% of "Mage Killers" can't even hurt a mage. Unless you can fly and have pounce and can start the fight (remain unnoticed usually) close enough to the wizard to reach it next round (with your flying charge) you really won't have much of a chance of killing it in one round. After a certain level Wizards are generally immune to stun/crits/Sneak Attack/Grapple/paralysis and several other conditions.

Plus all it takes is a Ray of Exhaustion to shut down anyone who relies on charging.


You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

It doesn't gimp a Wizard to have anti-mage killer spells because his anti-mage-killer spells are anti-everything else spells too.

What would a Contingency be used for other then protecting you from the something trying to hurt you?


In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

Odd that you mention that from Sun Tsu, since the Wizard is the character generally regarded as always having the ability to choose when and how to fight.


If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

A Wizard can always sleep since he has an assortment of spells that practically guarantee that no one can find him when he doesn't want to be found.

(Teleport somewhere else while Mindblanked, MMM. Or at Lower levels, just Rope Trick.)

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 11:25 AM
You must also be have a high touch AC/high Will and Fort saves/be able to deal with a Evard's Black Tentacles somehow, since any one of those failures could easily result in you being neutralized in a single round.

So we are back to the monk with a teleport spell and grapple?

Melayl
2007-11-13, 11:25 AM
Witchborn Binder from MoI works well too. At will Dispel, Word of Abrogation, Mage Shackles, Spiritflay... Makes life hard for a caster.

It's a PrC, but I do have a full 20 level base class version.

Fishy
2007-11-13, 11:42 AM
Spellthieves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a): Aye or Nay?

1) Stealth on up, Sleight of Hand to pick his pocket- looking for the Arcane Focus to Contingency.
2) Sneak Attack, stealing his Time Stop, optionally using the Mosquito's Bite skill trick to give you a round to cast.
3) Time Stop.
4) ???
5) Profit!

For extra points, Discover Spell tells you exactly what the wizard is capable of after the first Sneak Attack that connects, and a Level 20 Spellthief has pretty nice saves, and can spit back any spell he saves against as an immediate action. Not quite sure what happens when he makes a Fort save from a Cloudkill, though.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 02:07 PM
Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

Right. Then when you get hit by his disjunction, you're frakked. Actually, if this build put off Forsaker for a few levels, he could pick up VoP. It'd be best if he could take flaws, though. That way he could get Forsaker early, and get the full benefits of VoP.


I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

Note that this is simply a mage killer, not necessarily a mage dueler. Dueling a mage and not being a mage yourself is, frankly, suicide. Bloodhound and Foe Hunter work semi-well for tracking down the mage and getting the jump on him.

This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.


In hindsight, though, 35 SR at level 20 isn't a whole lot against a mage determined to crack SR.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 02:50 PM
Note that this is simply a mage killer, not necessarily a mage dueler. Dueling a mage and not being a mage yourself is, frankly, suicide. Bloodhound and Foe Hunter work semi-well for tracking down the mage and getting the jump on him.

True enough, except for the "getting the jump on him" part. That's what Divinations are for: A good question to ask daily is "Is someone or something actively tracking me?" and then work from there. There are a couple of low level Divinations that a high level mage should cast on a daily basis to ensure his safety.


This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.

Or the mage could wonder why this guy with no magic items at all is even thinking about attacking his Batman ass, assumes the worst, and acts very warily towards the guy. Or, he could just act warily towards any unknown opponent. Or he could have invested time and resources finding out beforehand what exactly the guy tracking him is capable of.


In hindsight, though, 35 SR at level 20 isn't a whole lot against a mage determined to crack SR.

You're right, it's not. When I get a little time I could try and up it a bit.

One last thing that I just thought of, a funny mental picture: a fight between high level mages and high level "mage-killers" who aren't mages themselves is kind of like a fight between Wolverine and Magneto. If the Wolverine could get to Magneto, he would tear him to bits - if he could get to him.

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 03:01 PM
So we are back to the monk with a teleport spell and grapple?

No, because:

A) How is this Monk teleporting at will? (That's effectively what you need.)
B) How is this Monk flying?
C) How is this Monk going to hurt the Wizard since he is immune to Grapple/Stun/Crits/Quiver Palm/Paralysis?

Please note that I even said that Wizards are immune to grappling in the post you quoted (a part of.)

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 03:04 PM
This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.

Or more likely, he could take not of some random guy with a club, and then, if he isn't already, fly up into the air with his all day fly effect. And watch as the poor guy tries hopelessly to do anything.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 04:17 PM
Or more likely, he could take not of some random guy with a club, and then, if he isn't already, fly up into the air with his all day fly effect. And watch as the poor guy tries hopelessly to do anything.

Race with wings...?

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 04:22 PM
No, because:

A) How is this Monk teleporting at will? (That's effectively what you need.)
B) How is this Monk flying?
C) How is this Monk going to hurt the Wizard since he is immune to Grapple/Stun/Crits/Quiver Palm/Paralysis?

Please note that I even said that Wizards are immune to grappling in the post you quoted (a part of.)

well since your examples use far fetched stuff ... the monk has 5 rings of wishes and he uses them to prevent the wizard for knowing what is going to happen and to surpress the wizard's spell functions and .... god comes down and jumps on the wizard's head and ....

or we use a psion and the Psion is different rule and none of the wizards spells work and the psion kills the wizard.

ok for some standardization.

I'm thinking of a level 20 wizard using only SRD 3.5 (and if you take item creation feats and use them drop your level to 19 or whatever).

Give the wizard the standard money for a level 20 according to the rules. pay for your spells and items.

Only SRD 3.5 spells nothing else.

Now make a wizard killer using only SRD 3.5 classes and PrC same exp as wizard. Same money to start same same same.


I'm thinking the wizard is killable.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-13, 04:39 PM
well since your examples use far fetched stuff ... the monk has 5 rings of wishes and he uses them to prevent the wizard for knowing what is going to happen and to surpress the wizard's spell functions and .... god comes down and jumps on the wizard's head and ....

or we use a psion and the Psion is different rule and none of the wizards spells work and the psion kills the wizard.

ok for some standardization.

I'm thinking of a level 20 wizard using only SRD 3.5 (and if you take item creation feats and use them drop your level to 19 or whatever).

Give the wizard the standard money for a level 20 according to the rules. pay for your spells and items.

Only SRD 3.5 spells nothing else.

Now make a wizard killer using only SRD 3.5 classes and PrC same exp as wizard. Same money to start same same same.


I'm thinking the wizard is killable.

Because a wizard using spells is far fetched stuff? and the extra spells are just pulled from ComMage and ComArc. If we're using just SRD then the mage owns even harder, without the extras the possible mage-killer builds are limited even worse than the wiz. The wiz is indeed killable. But your best chance is still anouther wizard, followed by a cleric/druid/sorc

AnnShadow
2007-11-13, 04:46 PM
Because a wizard using spells is far fetched stuff? and the extra spells are just pulled from ComMage and ComArc. If we're using just SRD then the mage owns even harder, without the extras the possible mage-killer builds are limited even worse than the wiz. The wiz is indeed killable. But your best chance is still anouther wizard, followed by a cleric/druid/sorc

Build your mage and let's see.
cost out your spells and items.

Zincorium
2007-11-13, 05:00 PM
Build your mage and let's see.
cost out your spells and items.

While this may have sounded edgy and confrontational when you were writing it, this particular fight happens over. And over. And over again on the boards. It's just not entertaining for onlookers anymore. If you're going to do it, think about the following:

1. An objective referee/DM
2. An arena that doesn't overly favor your character, because that proves nothing.
3. Realistic tactics from your character. Spells from NPCs, tactics that would cause your party to hate your guts, and similar things shouldn't be your primary focus.
4. And lastly, if you use UMD to replicate a wizard's spells, you've lost before it even begins. Faking another character's abilities is an admission they're better than the ones you have.

Frosty
2007-11-13, 05:04 PM
If you have an item of Mindblank, would it block divinations that ask questions such as "Who is trying to attack me today, if any?"

Ralfarius
2007-11-13, 05:20 PM
If you have an item of Mindblank, would it block divinations that ask questions such as "Who is trying to attack me today, if any?"
That's an interesting question. Mind Blank blocks out divinations that read thoughts/emotions, and any other mind affecting spell. I suppose if the divination is "Who wants to kill me today?" then Mind Blank would work. However, if the divination is seeking actions that are involved in finding you, the Mind Blank would cover the intent but not the actions.

How would one specifically word a divination to reasonably divine someone trying to find/harm the wizard, without specifying that person having intent?

PaladinBoy
2007-11-13, 05:37 PM
I would go with some stuff from Eberron. With the Mark of Passage feats, any character can get dim door and overland flight as SLAs. Add levels in the blade of Orien prestige class, which at level 10 allows a full attack after a dimension leap (which is a weaker dim door). It also allows teleporting other people's equipment.

Using good saves and the limited ability to dim leap out of danger, duel the wizard until you have a reasonable idea where the contingency focus would be located. Then get rid of it with your ability to teleport other people's stuff. This may require randomly teleporting the mage's equipment pouches. Then kill him, preferably with a readied action to dim leap next to him and full attack.

It's pretty rife with drawbacks, though. The item teleports require knowledge of the wizard that the blade of Orien can't gain working alone. Randomly grabbing the wizard's stuff will burn through dragonmark abilities unbelievably fast; the blade of Orien gets a lot, but not that much. And the wizard will probably realize what you are trying to do. Finally, the ability does allow a saving throw; the blade of Orien's Cha would have to be unbelievably high for this to work. Not a very good plan, but the best I can come up with in limited time. I'll refine it later.

Also, I realize that this might seem like using the wizard's tricks against him. I submit, however, that a fighter/blade of Orien with 3 specific SLAs gained from feats is hardly trying to copy the wizard.

Kantolin
2007-11-13, 05:52 PM
Build your mage and let's see.
cost out your spells and items.

I never quite understood this.

If the question is, 'Can I make a character who has the capability to defeat a mage', then yes. You can make a character who can defeat a mage.

If the question is 'Can I make a character who can very reliably defeat mages he comes across'... then that one's far less likely.

D&D is full of counters to everything. The wizard, now, has access to all of them - and fairly reasonably yet, since it takes him eight hours to switch.

Now, a [mage killer] can go buy himself an item to let himself dimension door more than once... but that's chopping into his wealth by level. He can then go buy himself an item that lets him fly... but that's chopping into his wealth by level. He then, the next day, cannot change all of his equipment to do something else.

But can a high-spell-resistance unit kill a mage? Absolutely. If the mage does not take the unit seriously, or you have managed somehow to trigger and get past all of the mage's defenses, or the mage was wholesomely prepared for a day of fabrication and you managed to catch him with a dimensional anchor to halt his attempts to teleport away.

All of these are, in fact, fairly reasonable actions.

It's just that a mage can stop whatever it is you're doing almost certainly, sans running around in an antimagic field. And a mage can solve an antimagic field by, usually, outspeeding you with magic (Say, teleport) thus not getting in it.

So can a given mage stop every single thing coming in against him at once? No. But for any build given, there are likely a dozen reasonable mage builds that snuff it - and I mean reasonable ones that don't focus on one-use-only items.

(Not to mention the one in a million chance that one person natural 20s everything they do, while the other natural 1s)

So eh. If your unit manages to beat a specific wizard, then hooray for you, but that does not negate the point as a whole.

Still, I do believe that the points listed thus far let you make a unit who can beat multiple spellcasters, especially if they're not particularly prepared for you. Be warned about grapple, though - most wizards realize that they're weak to being grappled, and therefore rings of freedom of movement are logical options on most wizards.

Melayl
2007-11-13, 06:04 PM
Again, check out Witchborn Binder from Magic of Incarnum. I think it addresses alot of those problems...

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:05 PM
Dimension door sucks. You can't take actions after you use it.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-13, 06:20 PM
Build your mage and let's see.
cost out your spells and items.

If you want then sure. I'm not very good at optimizing and I've never done a PvP on this forum and we'd need a DM but if you want.

But my point was basically that Mage-killing is best handled as a team, which can include melee roles but it needs someone to focus on dispelling/counterspelling/countertactics

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:26 PM
Well...

Hmm, what about ranger/forsaker1/foe hunter 4?
That gives you SR 30 around level 10, which is definitely unbeatable by anything you're going to be up against.

Counterpower
2007-11-13, 06:27 PM
The blade of Orien would only need the dimension door SLA to activate his Orien's Wrath ability. Which forcibly teleports others around. Besides, Orien's grasp would be the most useful, allowing the blade of Orien to teleport objects off of other people. Like, say, teleport the mage's spell component pouch away from him. Or his contingency focus.

That, and the dimension leap SLA would be only a move action for a blade of Orien, or even allow for a full attack after that dimension leap. He'd be fully capable of acting even after using dimension leap.

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 06:28 PM
well since your examples use far fetched stuff ... the monk has 5 rings of wishes and he uses them to prevent the wizard for knowing what is going to happen and to surpress the wizard's spell functions and .... god comes down and jumps on the wizard's head and ....

I use "far fetched stuff?" Really? And what exactly is that? Spells? Items well within wealth by level?

Do you not think the Wizard has spells to fly? To Teleport? Or are you so upset about the Elemental Body Spell that grants Wizards immunity to everything but death effects? Or Veil of Undeath that makes them immune to that to? Or how about being a Necropolitian, and immune to everything without even casting spells?


or we use a psion and the Psion is different rule and none of the wizards spells work and the psion kills the wizard.

A) The arguement has always been that casters>non-casters, thanks for admitting it.
B) Psions have no protection against Wizards then, but Wizards have Celerity, and Contingency, plus their version of Time Stop is better. Wizards win that fight too.


ok for some standardization.

I'm thinking of a level 20 wizard using only SRD 3.5 (and if you take item creation feats and use them drop your level to 19 or whatever).

Give the wizard the standard money for a level 20 according to the rules. pay for your spells and items.

Only SRD 3.5 spells nothing else.

Now make a wizard killer using only SRD 3.5 classes and PrC same exp as wizard. Same money to start same same same.


I'm thinking the wizard is killable.

Well first of all, Item Creation feats across 20 levels rarely ever result in you being a lower level. But I don't care because I'm not going to use them, or anything close to WBL.

Why does everyone always want to limit things to Core in these competitions? Is it because they get upset when a Wizard is immune to anything they could hope to do?

You make a "Mage killer" that doesn't use spells or UMD. (Since everyone has already said those things are better then your suggestions, and this is supposedly an attempt to prove them wrong.)

We should start 200ft away on an open plane, or whatever the optimal distance is that makes it so that melee attacks cannot fly on the first round, but can on the second. (If you disagree then we can start closer and I'll start in the air, where I would be anyway.)

I'll have my extended Overland Flight up from Yesterday. The only items I'll have bought are a Tome of Int +5, a +6 Enhancement Item to Int, and a few spells written into my spellbook. I have no idea how many right now.

I'll be flying. If I see you drink a potion and then fly towards me, I'll Dispel you. If you use a ranged weapon, I'll dispel it, then quicken Shatter it. If you have boots of wings, I'll dispel/quicken shatter them. I'll ray of exhaustion you when I have a chance, then I'll spam save or dies from my position of invulnerability in the air. If by any chance you have a thousand and a half bows, I'll just Fireball the Ground and destroy them all, unless you carry all these bows on your person at all times, in which case I call shenanigans, but I don't care because I'll just Windwall.

If you want to start somewhere I would never be, such as a place that I couldn't fly, then I'll Celerity, Teleport somewhere else, Cast Greater Planar Ally for something with high Spell Resistance (Like Maralith?) give it a scroll of Antimagic Field, Force wall around it, and then use Wish-transport travelers option to put you in the middle of the cage, where the beings readied action to use the scroll goes off. Then you get to die.

The second system requires a few scrolls, but since I'm not buying much, they come well within WBL guidlines. And once you are dead I get half your gear (the other half goes to the Maralith.)

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:29 PM
A vanilla psychic warrior can dimension door as a move action for 13 pp.

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 06:32 PM
The blade of Orien would only need the dimension door SLA to activate his Orien's Wrath ability. Which forcibly teleports others around. Besides, Orien's grasp would be the most useful, allowing the blade of Orien to teleport objects off of other people. Like, say, teleport the mage's spell component pouch away from him. Or his contingency focus.

That, and the dimension leap SLA would be only a move action for a blade of Orien, or even allow for a full attack after that dimension leap. He'd be fully capable of acting even after using dimension leap.

The problem is that the challenger pretty much hosed all such options by declaring SRD only. And of course, if you go outside of core then a Necropolitian Wizard with a 60ft Perfect Fly Speed can pretty much ignore everything.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:36 PM
The problem is that the challenger pretty much hosed all such options by declaring SRD only. And of course, if you go outside of core then a Necropolitian Wizard with a 60ft Perfect Fly Speed can pretty much ignore everything.

Except hurricanes.

Or a flying cleric who spec'd in turn undead.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-13, 06:40 PM
The problem is that the challenger pretty much hosed all such options by declaring SRD only. And of course, if you go outside of core then a Necropolitian Wizard with a 60ft Perfect Fly Speed can pretty much ignore everything.

I think they only did it for the sake of simplicity but there you go.

and there's no need to get annoyed by their use of hyperbole with the rings of three wishes.:smallsmile:

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 06:48 PM
Except hurricanes.

Or a flying cleric who spec'd in turn undead.

Technically I don't think Turn Undead has a range other then "closest undead" and maybe requires line of effect. So a Cleric would not need to fly I don't think. Though the Necro does have pretty large HD, and there may or may not be a few ways to up Turn resistance that are viable.


and there's no need to get annoyed by their use of hyperbole with the rings of three wishes.

Excuse me if I don't think that multiple Rings of Three Wishes being used to Prevent Spellcasting and Summon the very Gods is an appropriate response to a Wizard casting a single level 8 spell with a duration of hours per level. (Because that's all a Wizard needs to laugh off 95% of non-casters and/or "mage killers")

kemmotar
2007-11-13, 07:42 PM
Well...one is sure, in a straight duel the wizard would pretty much own anything...That's been said and said again and then proven a couple more times. However:
1) people seem to assume that all wizards are paranoid and have contingencied celerity and using divinations every single day to protect themselves. They sure as hell can, but will they? In your level 20 campaign wizard, do you prepare everyday and cast divinations to see who or what will try to kill you today? The answer is probably no.
2) an everyday level 20 wizard does not only prepare spells that will help them defeat mage killers, they need all around spells+they don't have as many spell slots and scroll cases can carry so many scrolls...same with magic items, there's a finite amount of magic items you can carry.
3) no battle in D&D has a 100% outcome, so saying that one can reliably defeat anyone else(excluding the wizard) is pretty much a nullity. By optimizing you can even the odds or get a better chance to kill another character...but there's luck that has not been accounted for.
4) let go of the i can and you can't argument, it's not amusing, as it's been said, anymore...what we are looking for is a build that can even the odds or get an advantage over a wizard, not why wizards rule. We all know that wizards can do anything, the thing is taking advantage of the fact that a wizard can't be prepared for everything in one day. And finally, making a wizard in order to battle a mage killer is easy. Killing a random wizard level 20 is a completely different thing, or killing the party wizard for that matter.

First of all, since duel is impossible stealth is required. Assuming that any self respecting level 20 wizard has permanent see invisibility or arcane sight, invisibility is impossible so we turn to hide and move silently.

One suggestion for the mage killer build is a whisper gnome with extra silence and silencing strike. Thus you get a no-save silence on your first hit. Improved initiative and high dex to go first, if possible. Also, there are many more things that can be done, steal his spellbook while he is out(if he leaves it at home) and attack on the next day. One thing is sure too, the longer you stick near a hostile wizard, the more opportunities he has to kill you. Thus what is needed is a build that can get rid of the wizard's meager HP quickly. SA is out since you probably won't be able to surprise him enough or keep up with SA in a one on one fight where you can't be invisible.

I once made a build sworsage 15/rogue 1/ thrall of demogorgon 4 and using boots of temporal acceleration(2 round timestop) to use a martial script for time stands still maneuver and then using dual actions(from thrall) and belt of battle to get 5 rounds of actions in one round, using the tigerclaw discipline for dancing mongoose and rabid mongoose(the maneuvers that grant extra attacks, if i'm mistaking their names) to get a pretty hefty number of attacks, combined with haste.

Mage slayer, pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection are also essential i would think, since the first defence a wizard would put up against a meleer would be invisibility, miss chances and AC+ spells.

I would also think that a mage slayer depends on magic items since the only thing that can fight magic is magic. Casting gloves and wand bracelet allow you to carry more magic items that you might need. Probably things like a rod of force, wands etc. Plus with casting gloves you can activate a magic item as without relinquishing your weapons. Wand bracelet makes it a free action, essentially to change weapons and/or held magic items.

Chronocharm of the horizon walker(make a move action as a swift action and then you can move again) combined with an anklet of expeditious retreat(for unusual body slot multiply cost by 1.5) and a fly item you can pretty much reach anyone you can see...

Also knockdown, if sword and fist is available( i know it's 3.0e but some DMs allow it)
What all this gives us is:
1) multiple attacks(i've gotten up to 60 i think..)
2) 99% chance to win initiative
3) even if you lose initiative due to a contingencied spell you can reach him quite quickly.
4)no-save silence which makes him waste higher spell slots if he doesn't move/dispell. Also the first time he tries to do this(since he doesn't know you have mage slayer feat is to cast defensively)you get an AoO and ruin the spell, then he has to waste a full round to dispell it, charge (double move with fly and expeditious retreat 100% you can) and silence strike (again silenced).
5) Knockdown allows you to trip on an AoO since you can trip as a free action whenever a single melee attack deals more than 10 damage. Thus AoO from mage slayer, trip(almost guaranteed success against the flimsy wizard). Then the wizard is in trouble.

Many people will nevertheless point out contingency, celerity,timestop and other things that can prevent anyone from getting close to the wizard in the first place, this build i think though has a good chance of killing a wizard if he gets near him. Gr. dimension door can be helpful, as is mindblank to block potential divinations. Now i wouldn't think a wizard prepared for a normal day, adventuring day or otherwise, would have all the spells prepared to kill you within the timestop.

One way to get around Continency, celerity, timestop is quite simple. Pay a thug 1000gp to go and attack the wizard. If he had CCT(shortened for sanity's sake) the thug triggers it(order him to charge from hiding), if not the wizard makes short work of him. Either way, no CCT to stop you and you charge from hiding, preferably while the wizard is occupied with the thug, before he makes the thug tell him about you.

And that sums it up...so to say...i apologize to anyone reading all the way here for the length of the post:smalltongue:

EDIT: saying that a wizard specced to overcome AoO to spells with concentration and/or tripping, or any specific spec wizard to overcome one aspect of the mage killer that would make his tactic inoperable is not a good argument unless you yourself would consider making a wizard for a random campaign with the same spec. People don't become level 20 wizards just so they can fight off mage killers..some though do want only to kill wizards and some reach level 20, so the opposite stands.

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 08:02 PM
1) people seem to assume that all wizards are paranoid and have contingencied celerity and using divinations every single day to protect themselves. They sure as hell can, but will they? In your level 20 campaign wizard, do you prepare everyday and cast divinations to see who or what will try to kill you today? The answer is probably no.
2) an everyday level 20 wizard does not only prepare spells that will help them defeat mage killers, they need all around spells+they don't have as many spell slots and scroll cases can carry so many scrolls...same with magic items, there's a finite amount of magic items you can carry.
3) no battle in D&D has a 100% outcome, so saying that one can reliably defeat anyone else(excluding the wizard) is pretty much a nullity. By optimizing you can even the odds or get a better chance to kill another character...but there's luck that has not been accounted for.
4) let go of the i can and you can't argument, it's not amusing, as it's been said, anymore...what we are looking for is a build that can even the odds or get an advantage over a wizard, not why wizards rule. We all know that wizards can do anything, the thing is taking advantage of the fact that a wizard can't be prepared for everything in one day. And finally, making a wizard in order to battle a mage killer is easy. Killing a random wizard level 20 is a completely different thing, or killing the party wizard for that matter.

The biggest problem with your idea is that you, like many people, are under the false assumption that a Wizard is dedicating anything to dealing with "mage-killers." All I have ever suggested is maybe two buff spells, and only one is needed to counteract all non-casters that a Wizard is going to run into. That gives, what, hundreds of spell slots for more specific protections, dealing with threats, ect.


One suggestion for the mage killer build is a whisper gnome with extra silence and silencing strike. Thus you get a no-save silence on your first hit. Improved initiative and high dex to go first, if possible. Also, there are many more things that can be done, steal his spellbook while he is out(if he leaves it at home) and attack on the next day. One thing is sure too, the longer you stick near a hostile wizard, the more opportunities he has to kill you. Thus what is needed is a build that can get rid of the wizard's meager HP quickly. SA is out since you probably won't be able to surprise him enough or keep up with SA in a one on one fight where you can't be invisible.

If you steal his spellbook he just breaks out one of his infinite free back ups, Not that he would ever leave it at home anyway (or that you could ever get into his "home" since it's his own personal plane that he controls access to.)

And the problem with you whisper gnome build is that you can't hide in the air, and so you can never get close enough to the flying wizard to do anything.

And finally, the biggest issue with any "mage-killer" build. How on earth are you going to find him? No one ever answers that question. He could be half a continent away doing whatever he wants and by the time you get there he might decide to move on and be somewhere else.


I once made a build sworsage 15/rogue 1/ thrall of demogorgon 4 and using boots of temporal acceleration(2 round timestop) to use a martial script for time stands still maneuver and then using dual actions(from thrall) and belt of battle to get 5 rounds of actions in one round, using the tigerclaw discipline for dancing mongoose and rabid mongoose(the maneuvers that grant extra attacks, if i'm mistaking their names) to get a pretty hefty number of attacks, combined with haste.

You do know that Time Stop prevents you from interacting with others right? So probably you would have just expended all your maneuvers in order to do nothing.


One way to get around Continency, celerity, timestop is quite simple. Pay a thug 1000gp to go and attack the wizard. If he had CCT(shortened for sanity's sake) the thug triggers it(order him to charge from hiding), if not the wizard makes short work of him. Either way, no CCT to stop you and you charge from hiding, preferably while the wizard is occupied with the thug, before he makes the thug tell him about you.

The problem is not contingency, it's foresight. He's not going to waste a celerity on the thug (and how is the thug flying/able to hide from greater prying eyes?) so all he does is ignore the little guy on the ground and keep flying.


EDIT: saying that a wizard specced to overcome AoO to spells with concentration and/or tripping, or any specific spec wizard to overcome one aspect of the mage killer that would make his tactic inoperable is not a good argument unless you yourself would consider making a wizard for a random campaign with the same spec. People don't become level 20 wizards just so they can fight off mage killers..some though do want only to kill wizards and some reach level 20, so the opposite stands.

The problem is that it takes 0 "speccing" to overcome 90% of "mage-killers" because they way to beat them is to treat them exactly like every other enemy, stay away, don't get hit, save or suck/die or no save or suck/die.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-13, 08:17 PM
If you can get an AMF or somthing, you could have a chance of reliably defeating a wizard. The problem is that you would need this active before the fights (so you would need a perminant AMF) for this to work well.

The leadership feat may help too.

kemmotar
2007-11-13, 08:23 PM
Firstly, what you say is all true. Secondly, i didn't suggest hiding in the air but using a big movement speed combined with flight from hiding in order to get the drop on him. Also wizards don't always fly, they walk from time to time too...even so, when you're in town for any number of reasons, you have to get down to talk to someone.

Also the point with the thug was to make him waste his contingency, if he had one that would be triggered by you charging from hiding, by using somebody else to do the same thing. Contingency doesn't give the wizard a choice of using it or not, it just happens if the trigger is met. Thus by replicating the same move you are going to do to either waste the contingency or find out whether it would be triggered if you attack.

Also the boots i used were not to attack him but use the two rounds to take out a martial script and read it so you can use the maneuver on the third round while also getting close to him. Time stop, move near the wizard get the script out, round 2 read the script and ready the maneuver, round 3 you attack and get the effects of time stands still. From then on its just using the rest of the abilities to get more rounds in.

Also, i do know that 0 speccing is required to pretty much defeat anything. A good mage killer however should take advantage of holes in the defence of the wizard which would require speccing to "close up".

Also, getting near a wizard is indeed a difficult thing...if however you use the above maneuver you can get near him and probably finish him or deal enough damage to finish him in the next round with AoO-> trip/move-dispell and then you charge(assuming whisper gnome for silencing strike).

The problem here would be making sure you act first after time stop finishes. Maybe you get a surprise round if you finish the move you made within time stop right behind him? Are there any other ways of going around contingency? You can't possibly know if he has contingency up and even less what the trigger is...Only thing you can do i think, is hire someone to do the exact same thing you were planning to do to check if it would be triggered. Assassin or cohort maybe, and you equip him with the equipment required to check whether there is a trigger?

Also finding the wizard is indeed very troubling...i guess using a ring of three wishes for "i wish to be teleported to where *insert wizard's name* is right now"...Then alarms sound, a million traps go off, a swarm of golems attack you. Yes you are in a level 20 wizard's home...

Kaelik
2007-11-13, 10:11 PM
lots of stuff

Why do you keep focusing on the contingency? That's not his most dangerous option. Foresight + Celerity means he always goes first when it's worth a spell slot, and you can bet it is when someone appears out of nowhere right next to him.

And once again, your "thug" is never going to get a chance because he can't hide from the Wizard. The Wizard has greater prying eyes or a familiar with good spot or blindsense (actually he has telepathy 100ft and mindsense). Which by the way, I'm not sure if you ever mentioned Darkstalker, but if you didn't just know that if you don't have it, then you will never be able to hide from a Wizard.

All this means you can't charge a thug from hiding (and you'd have to give him some method of flying too.)

I personally usually manage to have either a Silent Dimension Door, that can get out of anything given a Standard action, so you won't be able to rely on AoO. (In fact, Wizards have tons of methods of avoiding those, including cross class tumble.)

All this is really just in the hope that the Wizard didn't decide to buy a Wand of Enlarge, and take Mastery of Shaping, since if he did, you'll never be able to fly up close to him through his Shaped Anti-Magic field unless you are a flying race be default. (He doesn't even need the enlarge, but it is useful.)

Also, Silencing Strike, I may be wrong, but doesn't that require SAing? You'll never actually be able to SA a high level Wizard unless you get him in an AMF anyway.

Fishy
2007-11-13, 10:47 PM
Why does everyone always want to limit things to Core in these competitions? Is it because they get upset when a Wizard is immune to anything they could hope to do?

In a word? Yes.

EDIT: Also, and I ask out of curiosity, not criticism: What's the proper way to 'program' a Greater Prying Eyes? Suppose that Alice the Archmage does her morning divinations, and discovers that Bob the Rogue is intending to make an attempt on her life today. She casts Greater Prying Eyes, and has 25 words to command them to do... what? I'd assume something like:

"Spiral pattern search a 1-mile radius, centered on me. If you see Bob, return immediately."

So, Alice goes about her day, and one of the eyes easily beats Bob's Hide and Disguise checks. It flies runs back to its master- and then what?


In order to report their findings, the eyes must return to your hand. Each replays in your mind all it has seen during its existence. It takes an eye 1 round to replay 1 hour of recorded images. After relaying its findings, an eye disappears.

Alice could potentially have to wait 8 rounds, before she sees where Bob is- or rather, where Bob *was* when the eye found him. What's her next move?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 12:16 AM
I prefer keeping things open as long as we aren't talking one on one duels and normal adventuring type encounters when things generally default to level 20 as a power standard, so 760,000 GP in suggested wealth and a few more Feat and PRC options to all PCs, because in the end you have limited choices your PC maybe able to do amazing things but he can't do everything.

Fullcasters are one of the most dangerous things in any campaign world and any adventurer (non caster or fullcaster) should know that from his or her personal experiences of adventuring with a fullcaster team mate or team mates leveling up. IMO it is unreasonable for a fullcaster proponent to decry a non caster taking basic fullcaster defensive strategies particularly in high level high power games including very speciailzied noncaster Fullcaster killer builds (Specialization almost always has some kind of cost along with a benefit). Fullcaster team mates should be sharing good defensive tactics against full casters with his team mates which should include magical item advice unless they believe their team mates are ttrying to kill them.

IMO even if you are restricting things to core, core creation rules open up any magic item only using core crafting feats and spells in other source books things like the FRCS Underdark 25,000 GP Torc of Antimagic usuable 1/Day (Using prorated creation rules that price can be dropped down to 2,500 GP and usable 1/10 days) because they are already permitted by core creation rules basically all the source books are doing is establishing the cost mechanic for the item which is occassionally unclear with some items.

The Torc of Antimagic is an item most noncasters and BBEGs shouldn't be without in some form at this level for 3% or less of their suggested wealth because it usually takes a spell of some kind to defeat it even if it's only teleporting away. It was mentioned in the lock down thread at Wizard's that Dragon Magazine had an article about Antimagic dust for around 3,000GP.

Some "basic" continual divination protection like an an Amulet of Nondetection or another magic item that provides the same or a similar benefit like Obscure Object made by a Bard (Level 1 spell) so it should be cheap at the very minimum.

IMO a Personal Mind Blank item based on the Psychic Warrior level 6 power and a Torc of Anti Magic mechanics for comparable costs is preferable though since it would keep the cost down over a level 8 Mind Blank Item usable once a day and addresses the standard Foresight is always up premise I generally see posted so your party fullcaster isn't blowing all those high level spells buffing everyone.

From the SRD:
Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. ***This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or "effects".*** Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

IMO the "Contingency" spell should fall under "effects" if it is detecting a "Mindblanked" PC taking a trigger action because despite being an evocation spell it is actually "detecting" the trigger action by gaining information about the subject and Mindblank foils more powerful universal and evocation spells limited wish, miracle and wish spells when they are used to gain information. That brings up the question of trigger effects like when I the "Mindblanked" PC lose initiative, how is the contingency spell sensing the Mindblanked PC.

leperkhaun
2007-11-14, 12:27 AM
Hmmm, there is an item, cant remember the name or where it is, that will prevent 1 con damage everytime you take con damage. Take a look at hellfire warlocks, i know some threads mention the item as a "maybe" for bypassing the con drain to use their abilities.

That would prevent a forecage/Cloud kill combo from actually working.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 12:32 AM
Hmmm, there is an item, cant remember the name or where it is, that will prevent 1 con damage everytime you take con damage. Take a look at hellfire warlocks, i know some threads mention the item as a "maybe" for bypassing the con drain to use their abilities.

That would prevent a forecage/Cloud kill combo from actually working.

It's so much easier and cheaper to just become immune to poison.

Depending on what your DM allows, the best wording is something like:

"Stay within 30ft, aiding each other in detecting any hidden enemies. One of you inform me of enemies whereabouts."

This has them Aid another each other for a high spot check, and has them only inform you of hidden enemies. I like to argue that because I wasted precious words on it, it will inform me of the relevant parts first, so it only takes one round to find out where the guy is, after that it can sit in your hand reporting other things while you cast spells aimed at so and so.

Doresain
2007-11-14, 01:04 AM
going outside of core, and into setting specific classes, would an artificer make a good mage killer? i realize that is was stated that UMD is basically just copying what the wizard is able to do, but its really the only form of attack an artificer has (other than a few infusions)

im just curious more than anything

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 01:10 AM
going outside of core, and into setting specific classes, would an artificer make a good mage killer? i realize that is was stated that UMD is basically just copying what the wizard is able to do, but its really the only form of attack an artificer has (other than a few infusions)

im just curious more than anything

Yes, the Artificer is a good mage killer. It's one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all.

It's essentially a mage using different rules.

Doresain
2007-11-14, 01:12 AM
Yes, the Artificer is a good mage killer. It's one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all.

It's essentially a mage using different rules.

the more i learn about the artificer, the more i love them

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 02:46 AM
Yes, the Artificer is a good mage killer. It's one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all.



Please back up that statement with some reasons. Generally some kind of fullcaster generally has more opportunites although the lock down fighter is pretty good.

The Artificer is an interesting class and a few level dips are nice with a single level of Factotum and Marshal along with 2 levels in Chameleon for that open bonus feat in campaigns where a PC can't buy magic items according to suggested wealth guidelines and the PCs have lots of down time to create specific magic items for the party. The game generally revolves around PC action time units not days per 1,000 GP crafting items. Other than those two types of generally non standard campaigns (Limited magic items and basically unlimited downtime time outs to make magic items (I'm not saying there isn't down time for magic item creation just that it is not a given the PCs get as much as they want before and during each adventure to take time outs to make magic items)) so what exactly makes the Artificer such a good mage killer?

IMO something like a slightly optimized human generalist spellcasting skillmonkey Ranger or Rogue - 1, Factotum - 1, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence or Wisdom), Artificer -3 (Scrolls, Brew Potion and Craft Wonderous), Chameleon -2 (Open bonus Feat you can use for a Crafting feat), Ur Priest - 10 (Rebuke Undead for DMM), Assassin -1 (Death Attack, Poison Use), Monk -1 (Option not to use armor and use that suggested wealth for something else) since it would appear to be a lot stronger in more games than a straight Artificer for being able to deal with more situations including dealing with full casters.

A Artificer -1, Marshal - 1 Motivate Intelligence), Beguiler - 18 (13 if a Gnome for Shadow Craft Mage -5) can scribe scrolls for that single level and maxing UMD with that single level dip in Artificer for any spell not on his spell list. Just taking an Arcane Disciple feat and Craft Wondrous Item in a tight magic campaign does an awful lot.

Temp
2007-11-14, 02:53 AM
Nobody's mentioned the Slayer? It's one of the only Mage-killers that works.

'Course it's just a Psion in disguise, but that's beside the point.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 03:02 AM
Please back up that statement with some reasons.

They are fairly equivalent to a Cleric in terms of versatility and what they can do. They are not ideal as Batman-killers, but as far as killing mages (any full spellcaster), they're closer to the top than almost all classes. The prevailing thought on their overall power level is that they're right up there with the Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Wizard.


The Artificer is an interesting class and a few level dips are nice with a single level of Factotum and Marshal along with 2 levels in Chameleon for that open bonus feat in campaigns where a PC can't buy magic items according to suggested wealth guidelines and the PCs have lots of down time to create specific magic items for the party. The game generally revolves around PC action time units not days per 1,000 GP crafting items. Other than those two types of generally non standard campaigns (Limited magic items and basically unlimited downtime time outs to make magic items (I'm not saying there isn't down time for magic item creation just that it is not a given the PCs get as much as they want before and during each adventure to take time outs to make magic items)) so what exactly makes the Artificer such a good mage killer?

IMO something like a slightly optimized human generalist spellcasting skillmonkey Ranger or Rogue - 1, Factotum - 1, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence or Wisdom), Artificer -3 (Scrolls, Brew Potion and Craft Wonderous), Chameleon -2 (Open bonus Feat you can use for a Crafting feat), Ur Priest - 10 (Rebuke Undead for DMM), Assassin -1 (Death Attack, Poison Use), Monk -1 (Option not to use armor and use that suggested wealth for something else) since it would appear to be a lot stronger in more games than a straight Artificer for being able to deal with more situations including dealing with full casters.

I never said it had to be a straight Artificer20, although that works fairly well.

Also, unless you're fighting 24/7 for years on end, most campaigns are nothing but downtime.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 03:05 AM
Nobody's mentioned the Slayer? It's one of the only Mage-killers that works.

'Course it's just a Psion in disguise, but that's beside the point.

Slayer is excellent with the Spells to Power feat and cherry picking a few spells like Miracle for 17 PP.

Fishy
2007-11-14, 03:59 AM
This has them Aid another each other for a high spot check, and has them only inform you of hidden enemies. I like to argue that because I wasted precious words on it, it will inform me of the relevant parts first, so it only takes one round to find out where the guy is, after that it can sit in your hand reporting other things while you cast spells aimed at so and so.

Except you can't Aid Another on spot checks, and the spell specifically says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyes.htm) they relay everything, then disappear. :/

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 04:00 AM
They are fairly equivalent to a Cleric in terms of versatility and what they can do. They are not ideal as Batman-killers, but as far as killing mages (any full spellcaster), they're closer to the top than almost all classes. The prevailing thought on their overall power level is that they're right up there with the Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Wizard.



I never said it had to be a straight Artificer20, although that works fairly well.

Also, unless you're fighting 24/7 for years on end, most campaigns are nothing but downtime.

You posted:
Yes, the Artificer is a good mage killer. It's one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all.

It's essentially a mage using different rules.

--------------------------------------

Why should anyone reading your post think you meant something other than what you posted? Share the build that makes it work.

First why is the Artificer a good mage killer? I strongly disagree with the statemenet it is one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all; and your opinion that it's essentially a mage using different rules.

No it's not a mage IMO, it has a limited list of useful Infusions it can use but it can't memorize and cast spells normally without using a scroll? it's essentially a class which crafts magic items better than any other base class in the game and high level spell scrolls are expensive even if you make them yourself at half market cost.

The Artificer class doesn't make any of My Top class A lists for power in the game except as a dip:

A+ list (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Psion (via Erudite with the Spells to Power feat))

A list Beguiler, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Shaman, Educated Wilder, Erudite, a Generalist spellcasting skillmonkey build utilizing the above classes or Factotum, Marshal, Monk, Chameleon - 2, Ur Priest or Bard and Sublime Chord because with the generalist you get the most bang for the buck with a single level dip of Artificer with Factotum and Marshal and Chameleon - 2 or a another crafting feat like Craft Wondrous items.

Please share what works or what you think makes an Artificer such a good Mage Killer. I'd dismised the Artificer class from any of my builds before reading your posts forgeting how useful it can be now in game as a single or even a few class level dip now using Factotum or the Adaptive Learning feat for a Changeling or Human.

A single level dip of Artificer could really mesh nicely with a Beguiler or a House Sivis Sorcerer with the Unbound Scroll PRC.

I did acknowledge there is usually plenty of downtime before adventures normally and PCs can craft items in my post, IMO crafting at 1 item a day limited to 1,000 GP a day market with the mechanical time contstraints involved, normally isn't an option in the middle of most adventures.

I acknowledge that more magical gear can give the PCs more power and more options in game, just not that it is all necessarily equally useful to the party.

I'm more used to the non specific games even with a year of down time the PCs don't know exactly what they will be facing so an Artificer can mostly just bump up gear a step or two which is nice but so can almost any other caster with a feat. This week it is pirates. Next weeks it's brigands or a cult maybe with a few undead. Next week it is evil outsiders. Another week it's in the jungles or the city. Maybe a vampire or dragon. So there is less specializing in gear. No full time undead or dragon hunter parties. Once the adventure starts sure the PCs can make some divinations and get some ideal of what they are facing but that usually isn't teleport here and kill the BBEG because the PCs don't always ask the right questions (or at least not in most of the games I've seen over the years with the divinations) once the adventure starts most DMs don't let the PCs take a lengthy time out to make gear for the adventure that's why you already have suggested wealth by level, the party should be able to deal with most equivalent CR encounters unless they are to specialized.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 04:56 AM
Except you can't Aid Another on spot checks, and the spell specifically says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyes.htm) they relay everything, then disappear. :/

A) I said the aiding another would be questionable, but it's fine wording without it.
B) I read the spell. It says that they report all that they saw. It does not say that they report it chronologically. It also does not say that the Wizard has to stand around giving up all his actions to receive this information.

Therefore, it reports the part I told it to first (location of Mr. Hidy Hide) and then continues giving me other information in subsequent rounds while I cast spells at Mr. Hidy Hide.

Armads
2007-11-14, 05:07 AM
First why is the Artificer a good mage killer? I strongly disagree with the statemenet it is one of the top 5 most powerful base classes, after all; and your opinion that it's essentially a mage using different rules.

They're mages with different rules because they 'cast' spells via UMD and their Infusions. They're also one of the top 5 most powerful base classes because of their ability to craft magic items at ridiculously low prices (XP isn't really an issue; someone proved that by staying a level behind, a crafter can reliably craft and eventually catch up/overtake the rest of the party in xp). The main limiting factor of UMD is the cost of buying so many one-use scrolls, but the artificer removes that problem by crafting them all, and crafting them insanely cheaply. Also, there are some blasting tricks with wands (google "blastificer").

Stephen_E
2007-11-14, 06:40 AM
I do wish people would stop hauling out the old BS about Wizards using divination to track down everyone trying to kill them.:smallannoyed:

High level (well known after gaining all that xp) Wizard casts divination to detect all those who are or might try to kill him, or would like to kill him. Bing, 10,000 hits.

And that ignores all those with non-detection/mindlamk up.

Seriosly does any DMs here let players know everything about the upcoming adventure through divination magic? No? Then why the hell do people keep expecting these hypothetical NPC Wizards to be able to do so.:smallsigh:

Stephen

Grynning
2007-11-14, 06:49 AM
Slightly off-topic, where is the Spells to Power feat people keep mentioning? And is the Slayer the SRD name for the Illithid Slayer from EPH?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 07:41 AM
It was in a Wizard's Mind's Eye web article:

IMO it works best with a Marshal - 1 (Motivate Aura Intelligence for those extra PP you are losing by not leveling at 20th), Erudite - 4, Ur Priest -2, Psychic MT - 8, Full progress Psionic PRC-5. Ur Priest gives the PC a lot of utility with divine spellcasting options. Your PC can do lots of Psionic Power Miracles at 17 PP and cherry pick a few spells and psionic powers. Take Hidden Talent for something useful like Astral Construct and the +2 LA Phrenic Template is really nice with LA buydown.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Convert Spell to Power

Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. The higher the level of the spell, the more power points it costs. The table below describes each spell's cost.

Note: If this system intrigues you, you can see a spell point variant system starting on page 153 of Unearthed Arcana.

Spell
Level Power
Point
Cost
0 0*
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 7
5 9
6 11
7 13
8 15
9 17

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 08:27 AM
I checked my SRD 3.5 and celerity is not listed. Therefore it is not allowed.

Remember to llimit yourselves to only SRD 3.5 ... I saw a lot of non SRD PrCs ...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 08:29 AM
They're mages with different rules because they 'cast' spells via UMD and their Infusions. They're also one of the top 5 most powerful base classes because of their ability to craft magic items at ridiculously low prices (XP isn't really an issue; someone proved that by staying a level behind, a crafter can reliably craft and eventually catch up/overtake the rest of the party in xp). The main limiting factor of UMD is the cost of buying so many one-use scrolls, but the artificer removes that problem by crafting them all, and crafting them insanely cheaply. Also, there are some blasting tricks with wands (google "blastificer").

No having a special extraordinary ability to use UMD to emulate magic effects to make magic items does not make them mages. Unless the proper feats are chosen which is not a given the class does not even receive enough crafting experience to double PC wealth much less enhance the rest of the adventuring parties' wealth.

I strongly disagree, IMO the Artificer is not one of the top 5 classes in most "normal" games just because it is popular on some of the boards, crafting even just scrolls takes time and money, I know an artificer can use his homuncoulous trick to craft while adventuring away from home, but any caster can craft items with a feat, lots of ways to do besides going full Artificer including a single level dip or a few level dips in Artificer or Chameleon -2.

Just take two flaws with a caster or other PC. Take the FRCS PGtF Mercantile Background feat if you want to acquire more wealth by level in game should bump you up close to +150% of standard wealth with some down time and selling items once a month because you get 75% of market vice 50%. With Mercantile Background PGtF and a crafting feat there is really no reason for a PC to adventure except to recover crafting experience since according to the DMG luxurious living style is only 200 GP a month

Take Craft Wonderous Item feat compromises one of the most commonly used magic item categories used by all PCs. For 1/25 market cost in experience points and 1 day a level at 1,000 GP you can basically double your wondrous magic item wealthor upgrade it earlier than normal by level since crafting a magic item takes 50% of market cost.

I understand the lagging level mechanics but it is also another way of losing a full caster level one of the cardinal No Nos for a caster. Usually what I find in games is that PCs do not level up perfectly there is usually some left over extra experience that is not applied to the PCs or all are level equally as long as crafting isn't abused as determined by your DM.

If you have a few casters in a group see if your DM will let them work as a team and take separate casting feats. If you have a rogue see if he will consider at least a 2 level dip in Chameleon for the open bonus feat which can be applied to crafting feats in most games since the Chamelon gets some spellcasting as an option.

IMO the class that removes most of that problem of being a regular scroll user in game is the Dragon Marked House Sivis Unbound Scroll -5 because he can use his Dragonmark ability to cast from a scroll without using it up so none of that extra cost replacing a scroll every time it is cast. (I really liked it for a sorcerer before the Beguiler came out, I House Rule it that any Dragon Marked heir can pursue the PRC at The Twelve). Going Artificer -1,(Wiz - 5 or Beguiler -6 (Beguiler is generally stronger than going Sorcerer IMO unless you are a Kobold Artificer -1, Sorcerer - 19 or (Sorcerer - 18 with Marshal - 1 Motivate Aura Charisma)), Unbound Scroll -5, +8X gives the PC Beguiler - 18 spellcasting, the ability to scribe scrolls as desired plus the ability to not use the scroll up when casting from it using Ghost Writing if desired powered by his Dragon Mark ability. Unless you are planning to playin a high level 17+ game with level 9 spells some dipping can provide benefits to the PC by delaying advancement by a level or two.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 08:34 AM
I use "far fetched stuff?" Really? And what exactly is that? Spells? Items well within wealth by level?

Do you not think the Wizard has spells to fly? To Teleport? Or are you so upset about the Elemental Body Spell that grants Wizards immunity to everything but death effects? Or Veil of Undeath that makes them immune to that to? Or how about being a Necropolitian, and immune to everything without even casting spells?



A) The arguement has always been that casters>non-casters, thanks for admitting it.
B) Psions have no protection against Wizards then, but Wizards have Celerity, and Contingency, plus their version of Time Stop is better. Wizards win that fight too.



Well first of all, Item Creation feats across 20 levels rarely ever result in you being a lower level. But I don't care because I'm not going to use them, or anything close to WBL.

Why does everyone always want to limit things to Core in these competitions? Is it because they get upset when a Wizard is immune to anything they could hope to do?

You make a "Mage killer" that doesn't use spells or UMD. (Since everyone has already said those things are better then your suggestions, and this is supposedly an attempt to prove them wrong.)

We should start 200ft away on an open plane, or whatever the optimal distance is that makes it so that melee attacks cannot fly on the first round, but can on the second. (If you disagree then we can start closer and I'll start in the air, where I would be anyway.)

I'll have my extended Overland Flight up from Yesterday. The only items I'll have bought are a Tome of Int +5, a +6 Enhancement Item to Int, and a few spells written into my spellbook. I have no idea how many right now.

I'll be flying. If I see you drink a potion and then fly towards me, I'll Dispel you. If you use a ranged weapon, I'll dispel it, then quicken Shatter it. If you have boots of wings, I'll dispel/quicken shatter them. I'll ray of exhaustion you when I have a chance, then I'll spam save or dies from my position of invulnerability in the air. If by any chance you have a thousand and a half bows, I'll just Fireball the Ground and destroy them all, unless you carry all these bows on your person at all times, in which case I call shenanigans, but I don't care because I'll just Windwall.

If you want to start somewhere I would never be, such as a place that I couldn't fly, then I'll Celerity, Teleport somewhere else, Cast Greater Planar Ally for something with high Spell Resistance (Like Maralith?) give it a scroll of Antimagic Field, Force wall around it, and then use Wish-transport travelers option to put you in the middle of the cage, where the beings readied action to use the scroll goes off. Then you get to die.

The second system requires a few scrolls, but since I'm not buying much, they come well within WBL guidlines. And once you are dead I get half your gear (the other half goes to the Maralith.)

No. The mage killer has access to any and all SRD Magic items it can afford just like the mage does.

Again. I looked up Celerity and it is not SRD

The point of the exercise is that all these people saying "well the mage has a trapped demon who does ... blah blah blah ... and will know you are coming a year before you were even born and therefore will kill you while you are an infant ... so mage wins." gets pretty annoying.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 08:45 AM
You will start out dead.

The mage killer is on another plane and outside your scrying. She has hired several teams to watch you and make note of all your habits and movements. They are not out to get you or even harm you so your carefully worded scrying augury will not find them.

The mage killer takes his time and within a year teleports to you; anchors you; and assassinates you. you're dead.

Shotaro
2007-11-14, 09:01 AM
I've been thinking about this for sometime a 9th level assassin has access to Greater Invisiblility (provided INT>18) and can easily afford a ring of major spell storing and put Mind Blank in there. In a city or crowded area with the HiPS ability why would you attack anywhere else? the Asn could fire off mind blank when the target was found and greater invisibility behind him for around 20 seconds or so then Death Attack, with a DC of 24 (Fort) +24 on an attack its unlikely to miss with a 25% chance of a critical hit and dealing 11d6 sneak attack damage. using SRD only I think this is the best chance you've got against a Wizard without being one yourself.

Male Human Rog11/Asn9; CR 20;
Medium Humanoid (human);
HD 20d6+20; hp 102;
Init +3; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 18 (+5 armor, +3 dex), touch 13, flat-footed 18;
Base Atk/Grapple +14/+15;
Full Atk +24/+19/+14 One-handed (1d6+7;15-20/x2, +6 Rapier);
SA&SQ Uncanny Dodge(Ex), Improved Uncanny Dodge(Ex), Trap Sense(Ex), Evasion(Ex), Sneak Attack, Trapfinding(Ex), Death Attack, Poison Use, Poison Resistance, Hide in Plain Sight(Su);
SR 0; AL LE; SV Fort +14, Ref +23, Will +14;
Str 12(+1), Dex 16(+3), Con 12(+1), Int 20(+5), Wis 12(+1), Cha 10(+0);
Skills: Bluff¹ +23, Disable Device +28, Disguise¹ +23, Hide¹ +26, Listen¹ +24, Move Silently¹ +26, Open Lock +26, Search¹ +28, Sleight of Hand +19, Spot¹ +15, Tumble +17.
Feats: Great Fortitude (PH 94), Improved Critical (PH 95) (Rapier), Iron Will (PH 97), Lightning Reflexes (PH 97), Quick Draw (PH 98), Weapon Finesse (PH 102), Weapon Focus (PH 102) (Rapier).

GP Spent
Ring of spell storing, major (200000 GP)
Cloak of resistance (+5) (25000 GP)
Tome of Clear Though (+4) (110,000 GP)
+6 Rapier (72000 GP)
+3 Mithral Studded Leather (10,000 GP)

Vasdenjas
2007-11-14, 09:25 AM
If you use a ranged weapon, I'll dispel it, then quicken Shatter it. If you have boots of wings, I'll dispel/quicken shatter them.

From the SRD: Shatter can "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object" Your tactic here will not work.



We should start 200ft away on an open plane, or whatever the optimal distance is that makes it so that melee attacks cannot fly on the first round, but can on the second. (If you disagree then we can start closer and I'll start in the air, where I would be anyway.).

Where you would likely be attacked would not be on an open plain. While you can teleport form city to city, unless you have a whole bunch of them and d-doors memorized, once in the city, you would walk from place to place to do what needed to be done. You would be attacked en route during a random time of day. Foresight lasts levelx10 minutes, so the probability that you have it up at that exact time is little.



If you want to start somewhere I would never be, such as a place that I couldn't fly, then I'll Celerity, Teleport somewhere else, Cast Greater Planar Ally for something with high Spell Resistance (Like Maralith?) give it a scroll of Antimagic Field, Force wall around it, and then use Wish-transport travelers option to put you in the middle of the cage, where the beings readied action to use the scroll goes off. Then you get to die.

Do you not think the Wizard has spells to fly? To Teleport? Or are you so upset about the Elemental Body Spell that grants Wizards immunity to everything but death effects? Or Veil of Undeath that makes them immune to that to? Or how about being a Necropolitian, and immune to everything without even casting spells?

Why do you keep focusing on the contingency? That's not his most dangerous option. Foresight + Celerity means he always goes first when it's worth a spell slot, and you can bet it is when someone appears out of nowhere right next to him.

And once again, your "thug" is never going to get a chance because he can't hide from the Wizard. The Wizard has greater prying eyes or a familiar with good spot or blindsense (actually he has telepathy 100ft and mindsense). Which by the way, I'm not sure if you ever mentioned Darkstalker, but if you didn't just know that if you don't have it, then you will never be able to hide from a Wizard.

I personally usually manage to have either a Silent Dimension Door, that can get out of anything given a Standard action, so you won't be able to rely on AoO. (In fact, Wizards have tons of methods of avoiding those, including cross class tumble.)

All this is really just in the hope that the Wizard didn't decide to buy a Wand of Enlarge, and take Mastery of Shaping, since if he did, you'll never be able to fly up close to him through his Shaped Anti-Magic field unless you are a flying race be default. (He doesn't even need the enlarge, but it is useful.)

Also, Silencing Strike, I may be wrong, but doesn't that require SAing? You'll never actually be able to SA a high level Wizard unless you get him in an AMF anyway.

Your problem is you throw out spell names like you were a sorcerer that had access to all of them. The Wizard's forte is that, with preparation, he can meet any challenge. An ambush denies him part of that, and he would have to have spells memorized for that day for a generic challenge, not a specific one. And as stated, unless you are allocating several of your spells for good diviniation spells as well, and you are able to bybass any non-detection/mind blank effects, you will likely not know any specifics of the ambush.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-14, 09:34 AM
The 3.5 Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin are interesting providing the PC with a few more specials like psionic powers and PPs:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

A Karsite would be nice or a Phrenic with LA buydown with a:

Factotum -1 (IPs for Free Action Cunning Insight 2 IPs/encounter Int Mod to Att, Dam or Saves (More IPs with Fonts of Wisdom feats) , Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelligence), Erudite or Psion -17, Assassin -1

Anti Magic Torc is only 25,000 GP market in FRCS Underdark and usable 1/Day.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 11:59 AM
Ok I looked up your strat.

Did not find Celerity in SRD
Did not find Mindsense in SRD

foresight last 200 min at level 20. The max level 9 spells you can have is 6 (with a 29 int.)

Silencing Strike is not SRD
Elemental Body is not a spell I could find in SRD. If the spell has another name, other than Elemental Body let me know, I will look it up and see what it says.

teleport will not necessarliy get you away unless you win innitiative and are able to cast it. -- the assassin if he is touching you can willingly come along with you.

Same with dimension door.

A SRD psion with Divert Teleport and you are instantly dead unless you build your wizard exactly right.


Similar to detect teleportation, except that you know the intended destination, and you can divert the final destination of any teleportation attempt made by others within the area. This is an immediate action, like manifesting a quickened power, and counts toward the limit of one quickened power per round. You can manifest this power even if it is not your turn. But you do get a will save which is your best save.

Also, trace teleport is a level 4 power so pretty easy to follow you anywhere you can go. Just imagine the look on your wizard's face when he thinks he is safe, having teleported away, only to feel the knife in his back as he slips into death.

Your fort and reflex saves are only +6 unless you gimp your int or waste money on items to raise it.

Greater planer ally takes 10 minutes to cast. I suppose the assassin get to Coup-de-gras you .. how many times ... 60. Or I suppose you can cast defensively for 60 rounds
The assassin gets a will save against the Wish spell
and
Greater Prying Eyes will not work either. See the spell description for info. Basically, the eyes have to return to you and land in your hand and then relate everything they see. So you have 24 eyes coming to you each waiting its turn to land in your hand to tell you what they saw.

This is a classic example of what I am referring to: things that sound good on paper but in play, simply will not work. Remember; the assassin will more than likely appear right next to you. ... See the Gate spell. See Teleport.
GREATER PLANAR ALLY


By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you Up to three called elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 18 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).

You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex. You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services.

The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives.

A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to one day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.

A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.

At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).

Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

XP Cost: 500 XP.

So now you are down to level 19 because of the XP cost of the spell and loose 1 Point of Intel and you loose 1 8 and 1 9th level spell per day. How many times will you cast this spell as the assassin teleports away to strike you another day. Oh wait... right it takes 10 min to cast...

Oh and Mark off 18,000 gold for the Type V demon's payment for 20 days of work. Better hope the assassin misses his save to get inside the antimagic field. and better hope the assassin does not have a Protection from evil spell to keep the summoned creature at bay...

So, your great plan is to cast a spell taking 10 minutes. summon an extremely powerful demon, negotiate with it to read a spell once you wish the assassin into a anti-magic shell. Then you are going to hand the demon the scroll to cast. The demon has to role a UMD roll for the spell. OH Boy... cross your fingers .... hope he makes the UMD roll.


A marilith stands about 9 feet tall and measures about 20 feet from head to tip of tail. It weighs about 4,000 pounds.

Combat

Though mariliths thrive on grand strategy and army-level tactics, they love physical combat and never pass up an opportunity to fight. Each of a marilith’s six arms can wield a weapon, and the creature gets an additional three weapon attacks with its primary arm. Mariliths seldom rush headlong into battle, however, preferring to hang back and size up the situation first. They always seek to gain the best possible advantage from the local terrain, obstacles, and any vulnerability or weakness in their opponents.

I'm thinking the Marilith will have a difficult time fitting inside your little force field.

You want to ask a Chaotic Evil Demon to do a task that goes against all its basic fighting style (basically a cage match). Forget what I said about 18,000 gold... the demon is going to probably kill you instead. Nothing in the spell says it cannot. Or are you going to take the time that the DMG recommends when summoning extremely powerful Demon/Devils in order to protect yourself?

LOL forget the Coup-de-gras... the assassin will simply take his foot and scrap away some of the silver you have encircled the demon with so that it is now free to rend you to tiny pieces.


ALL THIS WHILE AN ASSASSIN IS KILLING YOU? You're soooo dead...

try to stay alive for a year against a level 20 assassin built to kill a mage.

So I repeat. You start out dead. Lets work backwards from there, shall we.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 03:10 PM
No. The mage killer has access to any and all SRD Magic items it can afford just like the mage does.

So? I know that, that's why I went ahead and designed my strategy to remove any method (including the item) that you can gain flight.


Again. I looked up Celerity and it is not SRD

Fine, then I teleport on my turn. You do realize that the only way you can even touch me is if you start with a surprise round standing right next to me, and that that will never happen. Seriously, I was going to say that we start off in a convenient place so that the fight could actually take place, but instead you talk about running into me in a city? No, I live in a MMM. I teleport everywhere, ect, ect, ect. Just start the fight on a plain so that you even have a chance of ever seeing me, much less attacking me.


The point of the exercise is that all these people saying "well the mage has a trapped demon who does ... blah blah blah ... and will know you are coming a year before you were even born and therefore will kill you while you are an infant ... so mage wins." gets pretty annoying.

Except that I never said any of those things.


You will start out dead.

The mage killer is on another plane and outside your scrying. She has hired several teams to watch you and make note of all your habits and movements. They are not out to get you or even harm you so your carefully worded scrying augury will not find them.

The mage killer takes his time and within a year teleports to you; anchors you; and assassinates you. you're dead.

When did I ever say anything about careful scrying? Either we can start the fight both aware of each other or we can start with neither knowing the other. If we do the second one you lose by default because you will never find me.

And really, you'll teleport? So you are a Caster, and you just proved my point that it takes casters to beat casters?

Why does no one ever just want to start a fight where both people can see each other. Why does every argument have to be about how they caught the Foresighted Wizard by surprise when he was out doing something, even though they would never know where he was, or what he was doing.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 03:18 PM
Fine, then I teleport on my turn.

Roll a Will save or die.

DC 29

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 03:26 PM
From the SRD: Shatter can "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object" Your tactic here will not work.

You need to reread the strategy and read the section on what Dispel Magic does to Magic Items. Dispel + Shatter is a common tactic.


Where you would likely be attacked would not be on an open plain. While you can teleport form city to city, unless you have a whole bunch of them and d-doors memorized, once in the city, you would walk from place to place to do what needed to be done. You would be attacked en route during a random time of day. Foresight lasts levelx10 minutes, so the probability that you have it up at that exact time is little.

Actually, I would be flying from place to place, that said, you would have to find me, and since I could be anywhere in any city you have less then a 1% chance of ever finding me, which is why to simplify things I was pretending that I would go out to meet this "mage killer" instead of just living my life comfortably while ignoring his existence (since he could never find me.)

Oh, and Foresight can last 4 hours easy. Non-core I'd use a rod to extend it for 8. But even four is enough to get everything done that I need to in town and teleport away.


Your problem is you throw out spell names like you were a sorcerer that had access to all of them. The Wizard's forte is that, with preparation, he can meet any challenge. An ambush denies him part of that, and he would have to have spells memorized for that day for a generic challenge, not a specific one. And as stated, unless you are allocating several of your spells for good diviniation spells as well, and you are able to bybass any non-detection/mind blank effects, you will likely not know any specifics of the ambush.

The problem is you don't know what's going on. A Wizard has more spells known, and a whole hell of a lot of spell slots. So far the spells I said I would have memorized would be:

1 Quickened Shatter lvl 6
1 Dispel Magic lvl 3
1 Foresight (Active) lvl 9
1 Teleport lvl 6
1 Mindblank lvl 8

Overland Flight would be cast the day before, because of it's 40hr duration.

All of those spells are spells that make sense for a Wizard to have all the time. And I never said I was going to cast Divinations. But there will be no "ambush."

Why does everyone ignore the fact that those protections of yours are Wizard protections? Yes you can pay someone to MindBlank you ever day. Meanwhile the Wizard does it to himself every day for free and you can never even find him.

Why is it that a Wizard has to cast hundreds of Divinations to know about a single ambush, but a non-caster doesn't have to do anything at all to find the Wizard, and is just assumed to always be in a position to ambush the guy who teleports around, can fly, and lives on his own personal demi-plane?

mostlyharmful
2007-11-14, 03:27 PM
Roll a Will save or die.

DC 29

Will being the save that you suck at.... and given that I fumble my clone wakes up in my unassailable fortress in anouther plane with full access to scrying, divination and planer allies... that's about the best possible outcome. and it's only the outcome if the wizard is a moron with no longterm defenses, no contigency planning, no allies, no layered immidiate defenses, etc........

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 03:28 PM
Roll a Will save or die.

DC 29

From what? And if I go first while you are still flat footed you can't do anything.

And you can bet I'll have Improved Init and a good Dex since in Core there aren't enough good feats to distract me.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 04:11 PM
Ok I looked up your strat.

Did not find Celerity in SRD
Did not find Mindsense in SRD

foresight last 200 min at level 20. The max level 9 spells you can have is 6 (with a 29 int.)

Silencing Strike is not SRD
Elemental Body is not a spell I could find in SRD. If the spell has another name, other than Elemental Body let me know, I will look it up and see what it says.

Okay lets see. First of all, I wass talking to someone else about what a real Wizard does, not a gimped "Core only" one. In fact Silencing Strike was his attack against the fictional Wizard. So please stop trying to limit me to Core in my discussions with other people who are themselves perfectly okay with non-Core material as evidenced by their usage of it.


foresight last 200 min at level 20. The max level 9 spells you can have is 6 (with a 29 int.)

A) Unless I get a caster level increase, and even that is hours, which is plenty of time to do anything I need.
B) Why on Earth would I have 29 Int? My Int would be 36 of course.
18 PB + 2 Racial + 5 Levels + 5 Tome + 6 Headband = 36


teleport will not necessarliy get you away unless you win innitiative and are able to cast it. -- the assassin if he is touching you can willingly come along with you.

Same with dimension door.

Or I could cast it after he fails to kill me on his Init. And if he could touch me I might have to actually look up the rules, but A)I'm flying so he can never reach me and B)I can 5ft step on my turn so he can go screw himself.


A SRD psion with Divert Teleport and you are instantly dead unless you build your wizard exactly right.

But you do get a will save which is your best save.

Also, trace teleport is a level 4 power so pretty easy to follow you anywhere you can go. Just imagine the look on your wizard's face when he thinks he is safe, having teleported away, only to feel the knife in his back as he slips into death.

All of which might be a point in your favor if you hadn't been the one to claim that non-casters could be casters. But even so, there is no reason to Teleport away from a Psion, I could just Fort or Die him twice that round and see how he does.


Your fort and reflex saves are only +6 unless you gimp your int or waste money on items to raise it.

A) How are you determining my stats?
B) It's not wasting since I have little Else to do with that Money.


Greater planer ally takes 10 minutes to cast. I suppose the assassin get to Coup-de-gras you .. how many times ... 60. Or I suppose you can cast defensively for 60 rounds
The assassin gets a will save against the Wish spell
and
Greater Prying Eyes will not work either. See the spell description for info. Basically, the eyes have to return to you and land in your hand and then relate everything they see. So you have 24 eyes coming to you each waiting its turn to land in your hand to tell you what they saw.

Maybe you should reread the part where I teleported miles away. I'm pretty sure that Coup-de-grace requires being adjacent. And hundreds of miles away is not adjacent.

And maybe you should read how I word my Prying Eyes and take note that no where in the description does it say that I have to waste my actions letting them if I don't want to.

And yes, your non-caster, poor will save, gets a save against wish (though I can just use another scroll, or a staff) that's DC 32.


This is a classic example of what I am referring to: things that sound good on paper but in play, simply will not work. Remember; the assassin will more than likely appear right next to you. ... See the Gate spell. See Teleport.

How is a non-caster doing these things? For that matter, how is anyone going to find me? The Assassin is not going to appear next to me because I'll just Plane Shift to my own demi-plane that he cannot enter.


So now you are down to level 19 because of the XP cost of the spell and loose 1 Point of Intel and you loose 1 8 and 1 9th level spell per day. How many times will you cast this spell as the assassin teleports away to strike you another day. Oh wait... right it takes 10 min to cast...

A) It's highly unlikely for someone to reach level 20 from 19 without gaining 500 extra XP too.
B) I'll get 6000XP when you die anyway.
C) I'll cast the spell once when you aren't around. How the hell did you follow me to a demi-plane which no one can enter without my express permission?


Oh and Mark off 18,000 gold for the Type V demon's payment for 20 days of work. Better hope the assassin misses his save to get inside the antimagic field. and better hope the assassin does not have a Protection from evil spell to keep the summoned creature at bay...

A) I don't have to spend any gold, since nothing prevents me from paying it with half your loot (significantly more then it requires)
B) I only need one days worth of work, since I'm about to Wish you right next to it and get this over.
C) Protection from Evil would be negated by the AMF
D) The Assassin doesn't get a save against the AMF. The spell is cast, you are inside, no save.


So, your great plan is to cast a spell taking 10 minutes. summon an extremely powerful demon, negotiate with it to read a spell once you wish the assassin into a anti-magic shell. Then you are going to hand the demon the scroll to cast. The demon has to role a UMD roll for the spell. OH Boy... cross your fingers .... hope he makes the UMD roll.

The Maralith has a +28. The DC is 34. A six succeeds.

Readied action rolls UMD, lets say she fails.
Arguable Surprise round (She was prepared, you just got teleported halfway across the world) she tries again. Maybe fails.
Now roll Init, if you win you have one round to use your non-caster self to escape from the Forcewalls.

You see how unlikely it is that you can avoid fighting the Maralith?


I'm thinking the Marilith will have a difficult time fitting inside your little force field.

Why? I see Space 10ft, not Space two-thousand-billion feet like you seem to expect.


You want to ask a Chaotic Evil Demon to do a task that goes against all its basic fighting style (basically a cage match). Forget what I said about 18,000 gold... the demon is going to probably kill you instead. Nothing in the spell says it cannot. Or are you going to take the time that the DMG recommends when summoning extremely powerful Demon/Devils in order to protect yourself?

I think that fighting a whiny little human inside of an AMF and a cage where they can't escape is exactly the type of thing that qualifies as using terrain and circumstances to your advantage. I don't care how "Chaotic Evil" I am, I'm going to take a free easy win for lots of loot every time. Especially when someone else does all the set up.


LOL forget the Coup-de-gras... the assassin will simply take his foot and scrap away some of the silver you have encircled the demon with so that it is now free to rend you to tiny pieces.

ALL THIS WHILE AN ASSASSIN IS KILLING YOU? You're soooo dead...

Again, how are you going to do anything to me when I just teleported away, you have no idea where I am, and you aren't there? After she agrees to the service (she will, since free money is good) I don't need the circle anymore. So by the time you get there, it doesn't matter.

Once again, how is the Assassin killing me when I'm miles away?


try to stay alive for a year against a level 20 assassin built to kill a mage.

So I repeat. You start out dead. Lets work backwards from there, shall we.

Okay, I go to my own personal demi-plane that I control access to. I occasionally Wish for large amounts of food, or I Plane Shift to a random Plane, buy hundreds of travel rations, and Plane Shift back. I do this at completely random times, to completely random planes.

Here's your problem:

Chance of ever running into the Wizard when he does not decide he wants to be run into=0%.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 04:11 PM
From what? And if I go first while you are still flat footed you can't do anything.

And you can bet I'll have Improved Init and a good Dex since in Core there aren't enough good feats to distract me.

Does not matter. Read above about teleporting.

did you die? if not then I am right behind you and now it is my surprise round.

Muhunnaahaha

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 04:17 PM
Does not matter. Read above about teleporting.

did you die? if not then I am right behind you and now it is my surprise round.

Muhunnaahaha

A) You can only take immediate actions when you are not flat-footed, so if I go first you can't use anything.
B) You must be missing the part where to do things you have to use actions. You can't Trace Teleport, then Teleport right behind me (you can't actually be behind anyone anyway) without me going at some point, since those are both Standard actions.
C) You get 0 Surprise rounds because I have Foresight
D) So then you are a Psion? Can I start laughing now? Or do you want me to wait for someone else to point out how this argument went?

Me: Non-casters can't kill Wizards
You: Yes they can!1!!one1!!!
You: See look, this Psion can use powers to, when things are perfectly set up in his favor, bother a Wizard.
Me: HAHAHAHA! Thank you for proving my point.

AnnShadow
2007-11-14, 04:23 PM
A) You can only take immediate actions when you are not flat-footed, so if I go first you can't use anything.
B) You must be missing the part where to do things you have to use actions. You can't Trace Teleport, then Teleport right behind me (you can't actually be behind anyone anyway) without me going at some point, since those are both Standard actions.
C) You get 0 Surprise rounds because I have Foresight
D) So then you are a Psion? Can I start laughing now? Or do you want me to wait for someone else to point out how this argument went?

Me: Non-casters can't kill Wizards
You: Yes they can!1!!one1!!!
You: See look, this Psion can use powers to, when things are perfectly set up in his favor, bother a Wizard.
Me: HAHAHAHA! Thank you for proving my point.

What happened to your plan to cast a 10 minute spell to summon a demon?

no the redirect teleport is the save or die. I'm guessing you're dead.

You probably never built a wizard with a high wis score.

Next wizard please.

edit: Nope.. just used a universal psion magic item. Actually did not bother to build a high level character ...

I just know all wizards run .. or teleport to save their miserable hides ... pretty easy to predict.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-14, 04:25 PM
Well... at 9th level Monks are immune to poison so cloud kill will not effect them at all.

could you make your mage killer a 9th level monk??

Well, my initial point was that a character built like the OP stated was vulnerable to a wizardly 3-move-checkmate. I did say that there were other ways a wizard might approach the problem.

However, I'll take your supposition then: If you somehow worked in 9th level monk into this build, it would only buy our poor monk/forsaker time to contemplate his death. The air in his 10x10x10 foot prison cube can only last so long, and protection versus poison doesn't protect one from suffocation. The forcecage spell, on the other hand, lasts 40 hours for a 20th level caster. The mage need not even lift a finger.

Now of course maybe the monk/forsaker took a VoP or is a race that need not breathe, or maybe he's able to teleport himself out via a (Ex) class feature. The point is that killing mages is never a guarranteed thing and being a forsaker really does not lend itself to high level D&D anti-mage combat due to it's lack of what you really need to kill mages: You need to be a mage or at least have equivalent magical firepower.

Keld Denar
2007-11-14, 04:31 PM
Readied action rolls UMD

Just to pick a nit....you can't ready actions outside of combat.

For example, you can't ready to fire a bow at the first thing to come through a door if combat hasn't started yet. You still have to win init over whatever is coming through that door.

So your Marilith might get a suprise UMD, and might win init, but in no way gets 3x UMDs off before the person wished in gets to act.

......
And AnnShadow, could you please put together a coherent statement containing more than "YOU DIE [font 342059435]" You have failed to mention your method of teleport, wizard location, mind blanking, and a number of other things, instead choosing to make grisly statements about knives in the back....

mostlyharmful
2007-11-14, 04:34 PM
What happened to your plan to cast a 10 minute spell to summon a demon?

no the redirect teleport is the save or die. I'm guessing you're dead.

You probably never built a wizard with a high wis score.

Next wizard please.

edit: Nope.. just used a universal psion magic item. Actually did not bother to build a high level character ...

I just know all wizards run .. or teleport to save their miserable hides ... pretty easy to predict.

How do they find you in your genisis plane (SRD approved) everything else is secondary. And if you say wish then wizard wins. as you need a full caster to enable your stratergy.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 04:36 PM
What happened to your plan to cast a 10 minute spell to summon a demon?

no the redirect teleport is the save or die. I'm guessing you're dead.

You probably never built a wizard with a high wis score.

Next wizard please.

edit: Nope.. just used a universal psion magic item. Actually did not bother to build a high level character ...

I just know all wizards run .. or teleport to save their miserable hides ... pretty easy to predict.

A) DC 29 is piddly, I can hit that without a high Wis.
B) So you built an item (IE made up your own rules) that somehow, redirects my teleport (with a higher then minimum DC, so even more made up rules) and then trace teleports me, and then teleports you to right where I am, all as a single immediate action that can occur when you are flat-footed, so it must be sentient, and it must have foresight always active on itself.

Congratulations, by declaring that we start in the same place, (for some stupid reason) that I get non of my protections, and never telling me what I see so that I never actually had any information, and by breaking about eight rules you managed to prove that:

If I can make a DC 29 Will save you can't even kill me with breaking the rules in a hypothetical situation in which you have infinite actions and I see you, but don't get to know anything about you.

Wow! You are quite possibly the worst human being I have ever spoken to (online). I don't mean that you are an idiot, or that you should have been able to kill the Wizard with all our cheating. I just mean that you are a terrible person because you are incapable of looking at the words in front of you and coming up with any kind of sensible response.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-14, 04:42 PM
A) DC 29 is piddly, I can hit that without a high Wis.
B) So you built an item (IE made up your own rules) that somehow, redirects my teleport (with a higher then minimum DC, so even more made up rules) and then trace teleports me, and then teleports you to right where I am, all as a single immediate action that can occur when you are flat-footed, so it must be sentient, and it must have foresight always active on itself.

Congratulations, by declaring that we start in the same place, (for some stupid reason) that I get non of my protections, and never telling me what I see so that I never actually had any information, and by breaking about eight rules you managed to prove that:

If I can make a DC 29 Will save you can't even kill me with breaking the rules in a hypothetical situation in which you have infinite actions and I see you, but don't get to know anything about you.

Wow! You are quite possibly the worst human being I have ever spoken to (online). I don't mean that you are an idiot, or that you should have been able to kill the Wizard with all our cheating. I just mean that you are a terrible person because you are incapable of looking at the words in front of you and coming up with any kind of sensible response.

I'm gonna sign out of argueing this one now.

kemmotar
2007-11-14, 06:12 PM
Ok...i do think we have established the fact that in a duel wizard wins since to have a duel the wizard is properly prepared, or out in a plain you have little chance of hiding. Even more so if you are far away, the wizard can just save or die you until you get there...so the only thing that does work is the wizard not knowing you are there. A composite greatbow with the 2xrange property is well outside greater prying eyes and pretty much anything that would detect you. You are up at the rooftops hiding in plain sight, thus the chance of the wizard seeing you is quite small(assuming assassin which i do think might actually work)...A save or die fort save(which is after all the weak save for wizards) even with a +6 cloak of resistance and a high int score on the part of the assassin makes your chances of getting the save pretty slim.

As it was pointed out correctly, a wizard can live in a genesis plane to which only he controls access to, cast MMM to get food and never leave the plain so s mage killer won't try to kill him the moment he steps out...Why did we want to kill the wizard again and would you make a character in a campaign that actually lives like that? we are not trying to prove why wizards can, if they don't want to be found, not be found...ever...but making a mage killer that can kill a wizard. I did point out in a previous post that everyone here should be reasonable in the build they make as in making a character that is campaign viable. A wizard living in an MMM in a genesis plane which he never leaves isn't a character you would make and play...there's nothing to play...you spend your days alone forevermore until you die of natural causes...You can make the plane have a slow time, you outlive the mage killer...good job...you won...

Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

Also, flaming and calling each other will eventually get a GM on your back and a warning...plus it's not fun watching 2 people continually saying "and then you die" to each other...this is a forum...be civil even if you don't like one another...

About finding a wizard that is not hiding in a genesis plane inside an MM...a level 20 wizard is a rare thing...people recognise you, you are hero known as a mage of unmatched power...you have saved a number of towns and villages or if you are evil slaughtered the same...someone that WANTS to find you can dispatch people to find you looking in every town there is rumor you might be. Plus, you wouldn't just stay in an isolated tower forever...you can't but you won't...there is no point in this argument, unless its set on a logical setting. If any level 20 character doesn't want to be found he won't be...

Besides if we're talking about a mage killer, one would usually think of an assassin type knowing very well that a straight "i'm here to kill you, prepare yourself" will result in immediate death in any number of ways...

One example of a logical setting is someone hiring you for a quest of epic proportions...said quest giver is in fact the mage killer. He then goes ahead to the place you're looking for and hides in preparation for your arrival. He is a rogue10/assassin10 with a +50 item to his hide and move silently sniping you from very far away...I realise this setting is unfavourable to wizards but no one is crazy enough to try and fight a wizards on the wizard's terms, that much is to be assumed. As for divinations to know his true purpose etc with divination...a permanent mindblank item solves this...as well as forsight...

PaladinBoy
2007-11-14, 06:35 PM
Okay, I'm revising my earlier plan. I still don't want to limit myself to SRD only, but since Kaelik doesn't mind....

Anyway. We still have a dragonmark for flight, dim leap, and dim door. Probably will also keep some levels in the blade of Orien prestige class. However, the other levels will be in rogue and assassin. Specifically: Rogue 4, blade of Orien 10, Assassin 6. Necessary items include poison (black lotus extract) and perhaps some dragonmark-boosting equipment. All of it is well within a level 20 character's WBL.

The strategy: If possible, identify the location of the wizard's contingency focus and get rid of it with blade of Orien special abilities or Sleight of Hand. Then simply use dim leap to jump to and full attack wizard. The poison may or may not affect the wizard; if it does, I'd say the wizard is in trouble. Losing 100 HP to Con damage, on average, plus weapon damage......

If removing the contingency focus is not possible (which is the more likely situation) then we know that the wizard is leaving after the first hit lands - possibly before depending on how the contingency is worded. In that case, the best possible outcome is landing one hit with the poisoned weapon and praying the poison kills him. Given the 1-minute delay, that doesn't seem likely. Maybe UPD on an item of trace teleport, followed by a dragonmark SPA teleport to follow up? (Actually, that last might be done in the first situation as well, if the wizard ends up running.)

For that matter, the low poison save DCs might be a problem. Without an item, it could get above +10 easily (unless the wizard is venerable age, in which case it's less likely). With an item, the chances are even worse. The highest save DC for Con poison is 20; the wizard has at least a 50% chance. Not good odds, although it's better than many others.

Oh, and I think information gathering would be possible using mundane Hide, if it was done from maybe 200 feet away. If I'm not mistaken, that's outside the range of most special magical sensing abilities like tremorsense, and greater prying eyes Spot can't keep up with a rogue's Hide, I think. This, however, would be difficult, as it would involve finding the wizard as he went about his business. Manufacturing a problem might be possible, but would be risky, as the wizard would then be hunting you.

Oh, right. In order to survive the wizard's celerity + time stop trick, we'd have......... hmm. Probably would need an item for mind blank; that would protect against a lot of tricks. I'm not too familiar with wizard tactics, though; what am I missing?

Oh wait, elemental body. Hmm..... we might need to put the UPDed trace teleport plan higher up on the chain. Either that or try some dispelling tricks with magic/psionic items. That is verging on copying the wizard, though.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to manufacture some trouble to force the wizard out of his tower; a hostage situation perhaps? That has the time sensitive requirement which can really foil wizards, and you can use teleportation abilities to leave with the hostage if the wizard's buffs are still active. The wizard, at that point, would realize that he's playing into your hands, but you still have the hostage.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-14, 07:26 PM
Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

I'm not so sure. Foresight is a defensive buff spell, not an attack spell or an attempt to scry on thoughts or feelings or divine information about someone else. It's cast on one person (usually the caster), who only recieves warnings of impending danger to their persons and suggestions as to the best way to avoid it. It says nothing about the sources mental hostility toward them, and works against falling rocks as much as it does against an assassins blade.

For example, you can be murderously angry and stand motionless for several minutes right next to a person with Foresight and they would not read your intentions or know there was any danger. It's not divining anything in relation to the attacker. The moment you draw a stilleto, however, Foresight kicks in and warns the protected individual that there will be an attack and the best way to avoid it is to dodge left.

It just seems a stretch to say that Mind Blank stops Foresight simply because it's Foresight is from the divination school. Mind Blank
is meant to keep it's subject "protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" and "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." It doesn't ever give blanket divination magic school immunity like it does for all mind-effecting spells, just immunity to information gathering.

kemmotar
2007-11-14, 08:17 PM
However, with a person it should work on a divining the intention basis. Sure it can warn you about falling rocks, but the danger is created by your intention. The act is just a manifestation of your intention. Thus knowing the moment you are being attacked is useless since the arrow would get there in less than one second. Thus it would need to "read" the intention to fire the arrow before you fire the arrow. As it would warn you about falling rocks before the rocks fall so you can take some action. Otherwise it would be doing what a spot check does:

-(forsight) rocks are falling on you
-spot check:5
-yes i see them...

same goes with warning someone, which is in the spell description. You need to be able to take some action before the attack, or at least a free action so you can warn them and then they too have to do something to avoid the attack. So i would think it's safe to say it doesn't just sense the action when it's being done, otherwise there is no time to take action.

You might say it works with rocks because they would automatically fail their save, as when scrying a non protected location. Thus you know beforehand because the "intention" of the trap is there. If that can be said...or it's just plain magic that magically warns you about falling rocks...anyway...personally i would rule that it does divine the intention of the attacker before attacking so you can take an action slightly before and before the attack reaches you. This would be reflected in the +2 to AC and reflex, it doesn't give a bigger bonus because of the time limit withing which you can take an action.

I asked in another thread whether or not you could prepare a swift action to move(with chronocharm of the horizon walker) as an arrow is being released or a spell being cast. Due to the almost instanteneous time it takes to reach you( 5 attacks in a round which is 6 seconds, 1.2 sec for each attack. Thus it takes less than 1.2 seconds for an arrow to reach you, you have to draw the arrow, string, take aim and then fire) is so fast that you won't be able to even act. Thus the conclusion was that you can ready a swift, or even move action to move out of the spell's radius or behind cover as the spell is being cast or as the bow is being strung. Following this i would assume that what forsight does is warn you so you can even take an action, albeit so small that only grants you +2 ac/ref so you can protect your vitals(ie SA doesn't work, you're not flatfooted since you know where the attack is coming from) and do something like duck, or move slightly away from the attack so that it might not catch you. Assuming that it takes 0.7 seconds to string an arrow, aim and fire(which it doesn't...) you get 0.5 seconds to act and nobody can move that fast, much less a wizard...Then if you have haste, you get 6 attacks a round, dropping the time for each attack to 1 second and the time to react to 0.3 seconds...anyway i think everyone got the gist of what i'm going on and on about so i'll conclude this:

All this of course is very artificial, but i'm trying to demonstrate that if forsight senses the action being done then there would be no time to react, therefore it has to sense the intention before the attack even begins to give you that one second or two in which you can react and therefore mindblank should work...

As a final note, if you can make a crazy damage archer build, with +5 arrows with a +2d6 properties, shrink them from huge size and get a bow with different +2d6 properties(do bow and arrow properties actually stack? I don't really know...but they might:smallbiggrin: ). Get 6 attacks, with belt of battle 12 and with thrall of demogorgon (dual actions, both uses used) 24... a custom composite greatbow with +X str to damage, a crazy str score and a lot of dex and +to attack roll stuff the wizard is peppered with 24 huge arrows with every single +xd6 damage property in the game...forsight only grants +2 AC and you are not flatfooted so it's quite possible you will hit...

Shotaro
2007-11-14, 08:18 PM
Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

Emphasis mine

Rapid shot is a ranged ability and death attack in melee only, you gotta get close and TWF to force two saves.

I agree with the principle though, what with all the money spent on seemingly infinite metamagic rods MOST times this argument happens its unlikely the Wizard will have enough money left to burn on high bonus fort boosters. DC 25 is going to be pretty much the cap for that. Also if you go Rge 11/Asn 9 you get 11d6 sneak attack which averages at around 33 extra damage 4 times in the first round if you get the drop with greater invisibility and mindblank. Use a Rapier with improved crit feat and you've got a 25% chance of critting the normal weapon damage so if you TWF with a rapier you're looking at 4 attacks with sneak attack for 132 damage plus 4d6 average 12 dmg one of which is likely to crit leaving a minimum 147 (excluding STR and magic weapon bonuses) damage in a single round with +22/+17/+12 on the main hand and +22 on the off hand without the extra two weapon fighting feats that allow you to use it more than once. unless a wizard PERMANENTLY has an AC over 22 while flat footed (don't forget Greater Invisibility!) and more than average 147 + 35 (+1 STR +6 weapon with one extra added on for the 25% chance of a critical) 182hit points then its impossible but I dont think even clerics reliably have that kind of HP by that level

kemmotar
2007-11-14, 09:24 PM
hmm...i didn't notice the "with a melee weapon"...dammit...would've been nice tho...anyway...the fighter 14/rogue1/thrall of demogorgon with starting dex 16 and str of 18, +6 str and dex item and +6 manual, +2 racial to dex, enlarge permanent for +2 to str give us str and dex of 32. Composite longbow damage is 1d8 for a medium creature. Shrink item and enlarge person give us 5 size increases which increases (according to the arms and equipment guide) 8d6 damage per arrow...since its a composite longbow we make it +11 str for a total of 1200 cost for the longbow without magical enhancement. We add +5 and corrosive,flaming, frost, shock and vicious properties for a total of +6d6 damage(actually i was looking for non elemental damage since resistance is a must have and it's far more than 6...any ideas?). So far we have 8d6+16+6d6 damage for each attack. 4 attack+1(haste). Belt of battle and dual actions give us 3 extra rounds. thus four rounds of attacks in one round, 20 attacks.

Average damage so far is 57 for each attack. 1140 damage on average if all attacks hit. BAB is +19/+14/+9/+4/+19. Dex modifier is +11 and weapon modifier is +5, thus +35/+30/+25/+20/+35...I'm pretty sure there's more attack roll to be had...adjusting for enlarge person -1 to attack roll, +34/+29/+24/+18+34. Forsight only grants +2 to ac. A few luck feats to reroll any ones that might disturb our precious routine, with particular mention to better lucky than good turning a natural one to a natural 20 for critical added goodness to the mix.

If we found the wizard and ambushed him then he is all stabitty stabitty now...burried under a barrage of gargantuan arrows...interesting isn't it?

You could add the 2x range increment property so you can snipe him from 220 ft away...

Doresain
2007-11-14, 10:21 PM
No having a special extraordinary ability to use UMD to emulate magic effects to make magic items does not make them mages. Unless the proper feats are chosen which is not a given the class does not even receive enough crafting experience to double PC wealth much less enhance the rest of the adventuring parties' wealth.

I strongly disagree, IMO the Artificer is not one of the top 5 classes in most "normal" games just because it is popular on some of the boards, crafting even just scrolls takes time and money, I know an artificer can use his homuncoulous trick to craft while adventuring away from home, but any caster can craft items with a feat, lots of ways to do besides going full Artificer including a single level dip or a few level dips in Artificer or Chameleon -2.

Just take two flaws with a caster or other PC. Take the FRCS PGtF Mercantile Background feat if you want to acquire more wealth by level in game should bump you up close to +150% of standard wealth with some down time and selling items once a month because you get 75% of market vice 50%. With Mercantile Background PGtF and a crafting feat there is really no reason for a PC to adventure except to recover crafting experience since according to the DMG luxurious living style is only 200 GP a month

Take Craft Wonderous Item feat compromises one of the most commonly used magic item categories used by all PCs. For 1/25 market cost in experience points and 1 day a level at 1,000 GP you can basically double your wondrous magic item wealthor upgrade it earlier than normal by level since crafting a magic item takes 50% of market cost.

I understand the lagging level mechanics but it is also another way of losing a full caster level one of the cardinal No Nos for a caster. Usually what I find in games is that PCs do not level up perfectly there is usually some left over extra experience that is not applied to the PCs or all are level equally as long as crafting isn't abused as determined by your DM.

If you have a few casters in a group see if your DM will let them work as a team and take separate casting feats. If you have a rogue see if he will consider at least a 2 level dip in Chameleon for the open bonus feat which can be applied to crafting feats in most games since the Chamelon gets some spellcasting as an option.

IMO the class that removes most of that problem of being a regular scroll user in game is the Dragon Marked House Sivis Unbound Scroll -5 because he can use his Dragonmark ability to cast from a scroll without using it up so none of that extra cost replacing a scroll every time it is cast. (I really liked it for a sorcerer before the Beguiler came out, I House Rule it that any Dragon Marked heir can pursue the PRC at The Twelve). Going Artificer -1,(Wiz - 5 or Beguiler -6 (Beguiler is generally stronger than going Sorcerer IMO unless you are a Kobold Artificer -1, Sorcerer - 19 or (Sorcerer - 18 with Marshal - 1 Motivate Aura Charisma)), Unbound Scroll -5, +8X gives the PC Beguiler - 18 spellcasting, the ability to scribe scrolls as desired plus the ability to not use the scroll up when casting from it using Ghost Writing if desired powered by his Dragon Mark ability. Unless you are planning to playin a high level 17+ game with level 9 spells some dipping can provide benefits to the PC by delaying advancement by a level or two.

ummm...by level 7 an artificer gets metamagic spell trigger...meaning a level 7 human artificer can apply maximize, quicken, energy admixture and twin all to a wand of scorching ray...thats a total of 96d6 damage (didnt feel like doing the math for maximize)...next level he can take empower spell to add more dice to that...it uses up a lot of charges on a relatively low costing wand (about half if im not mistaken), but im sure that even a wizard with all his nifty little defensive spells up will recognize the artificer as a significant threat

TimeWizard
2007-11-14, 11:07 PM
Given the old scientific maxim that "In theory, practice==theory; in practice, practice=/= theory" I have succesfully killed a wizard with a monk, and with rogue/assassin. It isn't that hard, the problem is people get stuck trying to out mechanic wizards- which is far beyond me in terms of skill. Get creative, and think with your mind. I wrote down two times my characters had to fight wizards, and how they won.


(please forgive the lack of subtle or skillful tactics, it was my first character- I was still a newbie to DnD)
My monk had to face a wizard in single combat, and in mid-level games it actually is possible to beat wizards in initiative. Knowing that wizards usually start out flying I chose to delay my action (he was to far to run to). Wizard casts fly, my turn dimesion door- stand wizard's shoulders, end turn. My turn again, flurry of blows, and yes, surprise surprise, it did kill the wizard. The hard part was falling damage. Is this practical (or even repeatable?) No. But does it show that wizards are mortal? yes. It's one of those stories that could only have happened in an actual game as opposed to forums.

The real gem came from my favorite character of all (and my avatar)- an Assassin. This is where Gather Information comes into play. My task was to kill a wizard, who had taken over one of those cursed sites of arcane power that seem to be friggan' everywhere in DnD. Watching, waiting, planning, and time were my weapons. "Real" characters in a DnD world have weaknesses, you just have to find them, GI told me that he had a lover, a best friend, and a son. So I kidnapped them, which was a small adventure. My apprentice and some hired thugs go out in front of his tower and start threatening to kill the 3 hostages unless he comes down- but he's a wizard so he thinks (and rightly so) teleport in, grab them, greater teleport out. He teleports in, and apprentice assassin has a prepared arrow waiting for him. Contigent teleport sends him to a safehouse of his, which my assassin had infiltrated. One poison sneak attack and it was all over. Not the most cunning ruse ever, but the wizard did not have a second contingent teleport prepared.


You'll notice my strategies are laughably bad and easily thwarted on a board, which is true. A batman wizard wouldn't have friends or family. A batman wizard would let innocent children be killed outside his window... but what DM has ever thrown players at an advisary like that? It worked for me at the table- so think what could work for you!

TimeWizard
2007-11-14, 11:18 PM
Rapid shot is a ranged ability and death attack in melee only, you gotta get close and TWF to force two saves.

Assassin's have a spell that lets them Death Attack up to 30'.

Kaelik
2007-11-14, 11:35 PM
@Paladin Boy, nothing about Dragonmarks or Eberron is SRD, so your whole build can't be SRD, so I get to make a real Batman to counter it, not some Core thing. Though I'm not going to, because I only agreed to the first one because there are only 2 core ways to fly without spells or UMD, which was the agreement (though for some reason Psions became non casters somewhere in there, and someone decided to start making ridiculous custom items.)

@kemmotar

Foresight says very specifically that there is never a surprise round against you, and that you are never flat-footed. Therefore, the only way to get SA is by flanking, good luck. I don't care if you are Mindbalnked, I know where the dagger will be before it is there (or arrow) not because I'm reading your mind, but because the mystical forces of the universe show me exactly where the dagger will be.

Secondly, everyone likes to pull out Assassins, and that's fine. I usually just laugh. Even if the Wizard doesn't go Necropolitian (a wise and common choice) all it takes is a single casting of Elemental Body (with a Duration of hours per level) a 7th level spell. It gives immunity to crits/stun/paralysis and a whole bunch of other things.

What this means is that Sneak Attack can't work on the Wizard, ever. Sorry. And since SA can't work, the Assassin's Death Attack can never actually be used either. And that's not even bringing up Veil of Undeath, which if you read it very literally, actually gives immunity to Death itself (with a Duration of 10 minutes per caster level) as an eight level spell.

@Time Wizard, A high level Wizard should really use some buff spells, and shouldn't have his contingency be so easily wastable (I dislike the idea of having a contingency that goes off every fight, it should only be there for obscure and very dangerous situations, or alternatively, teleporting your body to a Cleric after you death. Though that become pointless when you can just Clone yourself.)

As for your first story, you should reread the rules on readied/delayed actions. You come back into the initiative order where you act, the rules are specifically designed to prevent someone from going twice in a row by delaying their action. It would have been the Wizards turn, and he would have been able to fly right out from under you.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-15, 12:09 AM
One thing I'm noticing is that, while many ways to kill a wizard have been suggested, I have yet to hear a convincing counter to Foresight, outside of having foresight cast on yourself. Foresight is the key to everything, if you can't counter it, you can't kill the wizard. Thus the only convincing method of killing a wizard involves using a wizard spell, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.

Fishy
2007-11-15, 12:10 AM
I think an SRD Bard could do it.

Cast Silence on a ball of sulphur and bat guano, make a DC20 Sleight of Hand check to plant it in the Wizard's spell component pouch. No save, no damage, nothing to trigger a Contingency, although the wizard gets to make a Spot check. Bard wanders off, zaps the nearest commoner with a Suggestion to go and beat the wizard with a stick.

The wizard doesn't lose his *entire* spell list, particularly if he made paranoid use of the Silent Spell metamagic, or is an Archmage who took Time Stop as an SLA, or... Yeah, nevermind.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 01:01 AM
ummm...by level 7 an artificer gets metamagic spell trigger...meaning a level 7 human artificer can apply maximize, quicken, energy admixture and twin all to a wand of scorching ray...thats a total of 96d6 damage (didnt feel like doing the math for maximize)...next level he can take empower spell to add more dice to that...it uses up a lot of charges on a relatively low costing wand (about half if im not mistaken), but im sure that even a wizard with all his nifty little defensive spells up will recognize the artificer as a significant threat

Very nice and might be doable by RAW in some games depending on the campaign and the DM reviewing the Meta Spell Feats.

Artificers can't cast spells except from Scrolls. Can a non caster take a feat that modifies spellcasting before acquiring the class special that would permit it? IMO No, it should be treated just like Druid Wild Shaping class special which can be improved after acquired usally by leveling, class other specials, Feats or PRCs. Meta spell feats have there foundation on spellcasting.

It only takes an Artificer who receives crafting feats 5 Feats to pull off that combo: Energy Admixture +4 (which requires the Energy Substitution feat and Arcana - 5), Maximize +3, Quicken +4, Twin Spell +4 so he can add it to a wand of scorching ray.

I have several concerns with that combination which is primarily based on +4 Meta spell feats.

First it requires 5 Spellcasting Feats for a non caster and includes 4 before he can scribe level 4 spells in game like +4 Meta Cantrips and it only works in a game with the Flaw variant. All of those things are not givens in all campaigns.

Artificers don't cast spells they cast Infusions, there are no level 0 Infusions and at level 7 the Artificer can only cast up to level 3 Infusions although he can "BEGIN" Scribing level 4 Spell Scrolls. Most of the feats in that combo are +4 Meta feats that modify "spellcasting". I have no issue with an Artificer taking them in game as soon as he can actually use them in game after acquiring the Metamagic Spell Trigger class special.

It is only now at level 7 that the Artificer can even scribe a level 4 spell scroll which includes +4 Meta Cantrips at 700 GP market price (and using UMD he shouldn't need Any of those feats to do it with his class specials), but at level 7 the Artificer isn't picking up any new feats. So what kind of campaign is allowing PCs to take those feats before they can be used in game and weren't needed to Scribe scrolls anyway? What kind of leveling up campaign is an Artificer pursuing this build at the cost of 5 feats? IMO even if permissable in a leveling up campaign that most Artifcer players would actually pursue this build because it is basically over costly to the PC until level 7.

Suggested Level 7 wealth is 19,000 GP and a Wand of Scorching Ray with 50 Charges is 4,500 GP and an excellent meta spell choice.

Energy Admixture +4 (Requires the Energy Substitution and Arcana - 5), Maximize +3, Quicken +4, Twin Spell +4 so he can add it to a wand of scorching ray. By my calculations you get 3 shots per fully charged wand 1 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 16 charges. Could it be effective sure if it is allowed in game.

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 01:15 AM
I commend you, Kaelik, on the brutal victories you have made on this thread. Truely you are a poster among posters in your ardent defense of wizards, with insight into spells and synergy second to no other. I am amazed at the plethora of strategies you have found to thwart an attempt to be defeated, in any situation, under any circumstance. If only others were awakened to this knowledge, what a terrible mess all D&D would be in.



As for your first story, you should reread the rules on readied/delayed actions. You come back into the initiative order where you act, the rules are specifically designed to prevent someone from going twice in a row by delaying their action. It would have been the Wizards turn, and he would have been able to fly right out from under you.

Huh. If my group had known that I'd have needed a new strategy- we've been using that trick for a while. What's the DC on a Balance check to avoid falling off a flying wizard?

*edit, tangent thought* Why is it that no one mentions items that create antimagic fields? I know it must have been brought up before... what gives?

Doresain
2007-11-15, 01:18 AM
im pretty sure you dont need to take flaws in order to get 5 feats as a human artificer...you get two at first, one at third, one at fourth (this is the one im iffy about, because i cant remember if you can take metamagic feats for it or not) and a last one at sixth...getting the feats isnt a problem

and i dont know why it wouldnt be allowed in a game where the object is to kill an optimized batman

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 01:54 AM
im pretty sure you dont need to take flaws in order to get 5 feats as a human artificer...you get two at first, one at third, one at fourth (this is the one im iffy about, because i cant remember if you can take metamagic feats for it or not) and a last one at sixth...getting the feats isnt a problem

and i dont know why it wouldnt be allowed in a game where the object is to kill an optimized batman

Missed the part in the post that specified human Artificer. Yes an Artifcier gets a singleclass special bonus feat at levesl 4, 8,12, 16 and 20 which may be used to acquire a Meta feat or specific feat.

At level 4 an Artificer can only cast level 2 Infusions. I have no issue with an Artificer taking a +1 Meta feat because he can use level 2 Infusions things like a level 1 Infusion with a +1 Meta.

It boils down to a RAW issue for what the meta feats do and your game. The meta spell feats modify spellcasting. Can a non caster who can't cast spells take them in your games? Can a caster who can't cast a spell of the required level after the spell is modified by the meta feat take that feat? If both of those are true in a campaign what percentage of players would actually take advantage of that opportunity leveling up in a game?

The Artificer can't cast level 4 or 5 Infusions in game at level 4 or level 7 when he acquires the class Metamagic Spell Trigger special he doesn't pick up any other bonus beats until level 9 and 12.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 02:07 AM
One thing I'm noticing is that, while many ways to kill a wizard have been suggested, I have yet to hear a convincing counter to Foresight, outside of having foresight cast on yourself. Foresight is the key to everything, if you can't counter it, you can't kill the wizard. Thus the only convincing method of killing a wizard involves using a wizard spell, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.

All I want is consistent rules in a game. Mind Blank the spell certainly defeats Foresight the Divination spell since that is what it is specifically designed to do. If a Mind blank Psionic Personal or a Mind Blank Psionic wouldn't in your game I'd spend a little more money for a level 8 Mindblank item with a 30% discount for keying it to my alignment and another -10% tying it to an easy skill check. Extended Foresights via meta rods only works as general standard tactics when the non casters are further limited and denied access to magic that provides Mindblank in game and they shouldn't be with the wealth available to them to address a "standard" tactic and standard item creation rules.

The applicable spells and powers are listed below the magic items:

Anti Magic Torc is only 25,000 GP FRCS Underdark and usable 1/Day uses Craft Wondrous Item and Anti Magic Spell. Core Rules have magic item creation rules, the alternative source book b is really only providing the cost mechanic for a core feat and a core spell to defeat standard spells like Foresight.

Psionics is core with the SRD. Personal Mind Blank is a level 6 power which lasts 24 hours and defeats Foresight. Purchase a Anti Mind Blank Amulet, Torc or Crown and based on the Anti Magic Torc it should be around 25,000 GP. If it had to be created with the level 8 spell Mind Blank for a debate include the creation cost reduction rules -30% for an alignment, - 10% for a skill requirement so a -40% market price reductions using core rules.

At level 20 suggested wealth is 760,000 GP.


Foresight
Divination
Level: Drd 9, Knowledge 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: See text
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless)

This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Arcane Material Component
A hummingbird’s feather.



Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Armads
2007-11-15, 02:22 AM
Psionics is core with the SRD. Personal Mind Blank is a level 6 power which lasts 24 hours and defeats Foresight. Purchase a Anti Mind Blank Amulet, Torc or Crown and based on the Anti Magic Torc it should be around 25,000 GP. If it had to be created with the level 8 spell Mind Blank for a debate include the creation cost reduction rules -30% for an alignment, - 10% for a skill requirement so a -40% market price reductions using core rules.

Custom items creation guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They require DM approval, so they cannot be used in a RAW discussion. Using the custom item guidelines, items of 1/eternity are allowed (and cost nothing). So are 1-charge magic items (which are basically scrolls which do not need checks to activate). And the cost reduction rules are utterly ridiculous. They let you get a +5 weapon for 25k gp.

Also, Psionic Mind Blank does not defeat Foresight. It only protects against Mind-Affecting spells and Scrying spells.

Lokey
2007-11-15, 02:56 AM
*edit, tangent thought* Why is it that no one mentions items that create antimagic fields? I know it must have been brought up before... what gives?
Because AMF isn't crippling to Batman, but it is annoying. Force cage still works, etc...

mostlyharmful
2007-11-15, 03:00 AM
I don't see why a wiz20 needs to leave his tower all the time, with a crystal ball with telepathy he could have a conversation with anyone including agents or bankers to pay said agents. With callable minions he has access to cleric magic and reliable high powered agents. With Astral Projection he has a very save way to get involved in events outside his tower if he really needs to. and if he wants friends and relations he can make them able to access his tower/plane so long as they pass through the arch which casts greater dispel on them. Not fool proof but pretty safe. and he's playable (esspecially if you can make an item of astral projection that cuts out the Material cost and it doesn't have a duration on it)

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 03:05 AM
Custom items creation guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They require DM approval, so they cannot be used in a RAW discussion. Using the custom item guidelines, items of 1/eternity are allowed (and cost nothing). So are 1-charge magic items (which are basically scrolls which do not need checks to activate). And the cost reduction rules are utterly ridiculous. They let you get a +5 weapon for 25k gp.

Also, Psionic Mind Blank does not defeat Foresight. It only protects against Mind-Affecting spells and Scrying spells.

I disagree, of course they are the rules, the RAW since they are included in the DMG and the SRD explaining exactly how they apply to the item crafting feats. Only when a debate specifically limits Item Crafting feats would they be off limits. OT for this thread is Mage Killer Builds.

The crafting feats are not limited to creating just the magic items in the DMG or SRD. As long as a person is only using core feats, core powers, core spells and the core rules for a magic item it is a legitimate use with suggested wealth by level.

All the other source book is doing is validating the cost mechanic so other posters can't say the price was lowballed for the discussion like you are attempting.

Even suggested wealth by level requires DM approval in most games, things like sacks of Candles of Invocation or Miracle and Wish Rings and Scrolls.

Mindblank may not defeat the Foresight "Divination" spell in your games but that is not a given in most games. What I find irritating on the boards is the general consensus that Mind Blank spell or power works exactly as written when it can only be utilized by the fullcaster PCs in game to protect their fullcaster from all divinations, while limiting other players access to the spell since few and far are the campaigns where a full spellcaster will Mindblank a party day after day with some of his most powerful spells.

The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

If the standard premise is that wizards - 20 are "generally" going to have Foresight up when they leave their private demi-planes or MMM or an extended Foresight via spell or meta rod on the boards and not in games. "Generally" other level 20 PCs will counter that tactic on the boards and in game with a fraction of their 760,000 GP suggested wealth ensuring the wizards have to keep burning those spell slots.

All the 25,000 GP Torcs do for noncasters is change the encounter from an almost guaranteed cheesy singe round win for a wizard. They don't guarantee a win. A good wizard should be able to adapt to some of these basic tactics and strategies and circumvent them just like a good player should be able to capitalize on a mistake by the wizard. l

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm



Magic Items
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation. Creating

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Armor, shields, weapons, and items with a value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies and the experience point cost), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.

The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted.

The secrets of creating artifacts are long lost.

Table: Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs Magic Item Feat Item Cost Spell Component Costs Magic Supplies Cost Base Price4
Material2 XP3
Rods usable as weapons must include the masterwork weapon cost.
This cost is only for spells activated by the item that have material or XP components. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost if the item doesn’t actually cast the spell.
If purchasing a staff, the buyer pays 5 × the XP value in gold pieces.
A character creating an item pays 1/25 the base price in experience points.
Some items have additional value from a masterwork item component.
An item’s market price is the sum of the item cost, spell component costs, and the base price.

Armor Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
armor Cost × 50
(usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Armor and Shields Value on Table: Armor and Shields
Shield Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
shield × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Armor and Shields Value on Table: Armor and Shields
Weapon Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
weapon × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Weapons Value on Table: Weapons
Potion Brew Potion — Cost (usually none) Cost (usually none) 25 × level of spell × level of caster 50 × level of spell × level of caster
Ring Forge Ring — × 50 × 50 × 5 gp Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values
Rod Craft Rod —1 × 50 (often none) × 50 (often none) Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values
Scroll Scribe Scroll — Cost (usually none) Cost (usually none) 12.5 × level of spell × level of caster 25 × level of spell × level of caster
Staff Craft Staff Masterwork
quarterstaff × 50 / (# of charges
used to activate spell) × 50 × 5 gp / (# of charges
used to activate spell) See Creating Staffs See Creating Staffs
Wand Craft Wand — × 50 × 50 × 5 gp 375 × level of spell × level of caster 750 × level of spell × level of caster
Wondrous
Item Craft
Wondrous Item —5 × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none)× 5 gp Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values
Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price.
Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
See Body Slot Affinities.
An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

Effect Base Price Example
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp +1 chainmail
Bonus spell Spell level1 squared × 1,000 gp Pearl of power
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Ring of protection +3
AC bonus (other)2 Bonus squared × 2,500 gp Ioun stone, dusty rose prism
Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Amulet of natural armor +1
Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp Cloak of resistance +5
Save bonus (other)2 Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Stone of good luck
Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp Cloak of elvenkind
Spell resistance 10,000 gp per point over SR 12; SR 13 minimum Mantle of spell resistance
Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp +1 longsword
Spell Effect Base Price Example
Single use, spell completion Spell level1 × caster level × 25 gp Scroll of haste
Single use, use-activated Spell level1 × caster level × 50 gp Potion of cure light wounds
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level1 × caster level × 750 gp Wand of fireball
Command word Spell level1 × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level1 × caster level × 2,000 gp3 Lantern of revealing
Special Base Price Adjustment Example
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) Boots of teleportation
Uncustomary space limitation4 Multiply entire cost by 1.5 Helm of teleportation
No space limitation5 Multiply entire cost by 2 Ioun stone
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5 Helm of brilliance
Charged (50 charges) ½ unlimited use base price Ring of the ram
Component Extra Cost Example
Armor, shield, or weapon Add cost of masterwork item +1 composite longbow
Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge6 Wand of stoneskin
Spell has XP cost Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge6 Ring of three wishes

Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

Multiple Similar Abilities
For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities
Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

0-Level Spells
When multiplying spell levels to determine value, 0-level spells should be treated as ½ level.

Other Considerations
Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:

Item Requires Skill to Use
Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item’s caster level) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

Masterwork Items
Masterwork items are extraordinarily well-made items. They are more expensive, but they benefit the user with improved quality. They are not magical in any way. However, only masterwork items may be enhanced to become magic armor and weapons. (Items that are not weapons or armor may or may not be masterwork items.)

Creating Magic Armor
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Armor Special Abilities and Table: Shield Special Abilities.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some armor may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Creating Magic Weapons
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price given on Table: Weapons, according to the weapon’s total effective bonus.

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities or Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

At the time of creation, the creator must decide if the weapon glows or not as a side-effect of the magic imbued within it. This decision does not affect the price or the creation time, but once the item is finished, the decision is binding.

Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.

Creating some weapons may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a magic weapon requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Creating Potions
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.

Item Creation Feat Required
Brew Potion.

Table: Potion Base Prices (By Brewer’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Prices assume that the potion was made at the minimum caster level.

0 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp —
1st 50 gp 50 gp 100 gp 100 gp
2nd 300 gp 400 gp 400 gp 400 gp
3rd 750 gp 900 gp 1,050 gp 750 gp
Table: Base Cost to Brew a Potion (By Brewer’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Costs assume that the creator makes the potion at the minimum caster level.

0 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP —
1st 25 gp +2 XP 25 gp +2 XP 50 gp +4 XP 50 gp +4 XP
2nd 150 gp +12 XP 200 gp +16 XP 200 gp +16 XP 200 gp +16 XP
3rd 375 gp +30 XP 450 gp +36 XP 525 gp +42 XP 375 gp +30 XP

Creating Rings
To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the ring. Ring costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the ring prices in the ring descriptions as a guideline. Creating a ring generally costs half the ring’s market price.

Rings that duplicate spells with costly material or XP components add in the value of 50 × the spell’s component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some rings may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Forging a ring requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Forge Ring.

Creating Rods
To create a magic rod, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a rod or the pieces of the rod to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the rod. Rod costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the rod prices in the rod descriptions as a guideline. Creating a rod costs half the market value listed.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some rods may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a rod requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Rod.

Creating Scrolls
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Scribe Scroll.

Table: Scroll Base Prices (By Scriber’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Prices assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level.

0 12 gp 5 sp 12 gp 5 sp 12 gp 5 sp —
1st 25 gp 25 gp 50 gp 50 gp
2nd 150 gp 200 gp 200 gp 200 gp
3rd 375 gp 450 gp 525 gp 375 gp
4th 700 gp 800 gp 1,000 gp 700 gp
5th 1,125 gp 1,250 gp 1,625 gp —
6th 1,650 gp 1,800 gp 2,400 gp —
7th 2,275 gp 2,450 gp — —
8th 3,000 gp 3,200 gp — —
9th 3,825 gp 4,050 gp — —
Table: Base Magic Supplies and XP Cost to Scribe a Scroll (By Scriber’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level.

0 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP —
1st 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 25 gp +1 XP 25 gp +2 XP
2nd 75 gp +6 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP
3rd 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 225 gp +18 XP 262 gp 5 sp +21 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP
4th 350 gp +28 XP 400 gp +32 XP 500 gp +40 XP 350 gp +28 XP
5th 562 gp 5 sp +45 XP 625 gp +50 XP 812 gp 5 sp +65 XP —
6th 826 gp +66 XP 900 gp +72 XP 1,200 gp +96 XP —
7th 1,135 gp 5 sp +91 XP 1,225 gp +98 XP — —
8th 1,500 gp +120 XP 1,600 gp +128 XP — —
9th 1,912 gp 5 sp +153 XP 2, 025 gp +162 XP — —

Creating Staffs
To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.

The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component costs sufficient to activate the spell a maximum number of times (50 divided by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). This is in addition to the XP cost for making the staff itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating a few staffs may entail other prerequisites beyond spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a staff requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Staff.

Creating Wands
To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand—375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Crafting a wand requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Wand.

Table: Wand Base Prices (By Crafter’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level.

0 375 gp 375 gp 375 gp —
1st 750 gp 750 gp 1,500 gp 1,500 gp
2nd 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp
3rd 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 15,750 gp 11,250 gp
4th 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 30,000 gp 21,000 gp
Table: Base Magic Supplies and XP Cost to Craft a Wand (By Crafter’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Costs assume that the creator makes the wand at the minimum caster level.

0 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP —
1st 375 gp +30 XP 375 gp +30 XP 750 gp +60 XP 750 gp +60 XP
2nd 2,250 gp +180 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP
3rd 5,625 gp +450 XP 6,750 gp +540 XP 7,875 gp +630 XP 5,625 gp +450 XP
4th 10,500 gp +840 XP 12,000 gp +960 XP 15,000 gp +1200 XP 10,500 gp +840 XP

Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Wondrous Item.

Intelligent Item Creation
To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section.

Adding New Abilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

Table: Body Slot Affinities Body Slot Affinity
Headband, helmet Mental improvement, ranged attacks
Hat Interaction
Phylactery Morale, alignment
Eye lenses, goggles Vision
Cloak, cape, mantle Transformation, protection
Amulet, brooch, medallion,
necklace, periapt, scarab Protection, discernment
Robe Multiple effects
Shirt Physical improvement
Vest, vestment Class ability improvement
Bracers Combat
Bracelets Allies
Gloves Quickness
Gauntlets Destructive power
Belt Physical improvement
Boots Movement
Body Slot Affinities
Each location on the body, or body slot, has one or more affinities: a word or phrase that describes the general function or nature of magic items designed for that body slot. Body slot affinities are deliberately broad, abstract categorizations, because a hard-and-fast rule can’t cover the great variety among wondrous items.

You can use the affinities in the list below to guide your decisions on which magic items should be allowed in which body slots. And when you design your own magic items, the affinities give you some guidance for what form a particular item should take.

Some body slots have different affinities for different specific items.

Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity.

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 03:27 AM
Can a non caster take a feat that modifies spellcasting before acquiring the class special that would permit it?

I don't understand what you are saying here. To take a feat all you need is to meat the pre-reqs. No single Metamagic Feat has a pre-req of being able to cast spells. The Artificer even gets Metamagic spells as bonus feats. I see no logic in not letting them take metamagic feats if they choose.

And Castlemike. Please spoiler that, or just link it, that's a whole lot to scroll through for just being a copy paste job.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 03:50 AM
I don't understand what you are saying here. To take a feat all you need is to meat the pre-reqs. No single Metamagic Feat has a pre-req of being able to cast spells. The Artificer even gets Metamagic spells as bonus feats. I see no logic in not letting them take metamagic feats if they choose.

And Castlemike. Please spoiler that, or just link it, that's a whole lot to scroll through for just being a copy paste job.

No the metamagic spell feats don't have a specific prerequisite listed although they all provide a "benefit" to spellcasting in their descriptions or charts. What do all those metamagic spell feats do? Those metamagic spell feats Modify a class special ability Spellcasting, is it a given in all games that a DM will allow non casters to take those feats which modify the class special ability of Spellcasting? IMO No. Is it a given a DM will allow a PC caster to take a feat he does not have sufficient level to utilize to modify his class spellcasting ability or other class special like the Artificer special Metamagic Spell Trigger before it is acquired in game by leveling? IMO No.

By RAW can you still move around when your PC dies? Yes but only because in the rules it doesn't say you can't. On the boards you can post all you want how your PC moves around after he dies but will that make it true with most DMs in their games after the PC is dead? IMO No.

It was a clever build if it is permitted in a game, a level 7 PC performing the equivalent of a level 17 EPIC magic effect in game without needing to make any checks. Now I know how ECS keeps getting destroyed:smallsmile: IMO not all DMs will allow the build to noncasters or casters who are not of sufficient level to use the feats in game since it appears to capitalize on a design rule oversight which can basically only be exploited in game by a Artificer PC with wands doing things no comparable level 20 fullcaster could do even the Ultimate Magus PRC limits spell fueled meta to +4 spell. What other PCs in game can do something comparable on a similar scale? None to my knowledge and good reason to disallow it.

lMO the best games usually have a little quid pro quo with a DM who keeps the PCs on their toes guessing. If I was an Artificer or in a party with an Artificer using those tactics regularly in game I would expect my DM to incorporate those same tactics which rely on feats and burning up magic items into his game occassionally with NPCs. 4 Artificers using those tactics are a CR 11 encounter, 6 are a CR 12 encounter and 8 are a CR 13 encounter.

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 09:54 AM
Did you just compare taking metamagic feats with an Artificer (something that the designers actually tell you to do with the Bonus feats) to moving around while dead?

I don't care about one obscure tactic out of the billion obscure tactics that Artificers can use. My point is that if an Artificer wants to take a metamagc feat at level 1, level 3, or level 12 I'm going to let them, because saying "non-casters can't take feats like that" is silly when they are designed with precisely that in mind.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 10:45 AM
Did you just compare taking metamagic feats with an Artificer (something that the designers actually tell you to do with the Bonus feats) to moving around while dead?

I don't care about one obscure tactic out of the billion obscure tactics that Artificers can use. My point is that if an Artificer wants to take a metamagc feat at level 1, level 3, or level 12 I'm going to let them, because saying "non-casters can't take feats like that" is silly when they are designed with precisely that in mind.

Yes, could you post a link to those posts where the designers tell us it is cool and suggested to do things like breaking the game adding +15 spell meta with a wand at level 7 as an Artificer creating an Epic spell effect?

I disagree regarding an obscure tactic of this magnitude than has no comparable equivalent in game mechanics. It's a big difference when the feats are acquired and applied in game. Artificers don't pick up the level 7 Meta Magic Spell trigger until level 7 and it's no big deal if one had picked up several +1 or +0 spell meta feats because they wouldn't have anywhere near the impact the spell meta beyond caster level does.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-15, 11:21 AM
Please back up that statement with some reasons. Generally some kind of fullcaster generally has more opportunites although the lock down fighter is pretty good.

The Artificer is an interesting class and a few level dips are nice with a single level of Factotum and Marshal along with 2 levels in Chameleon for that open bonus feat in campaigns where a PC can't buy magic items according to suggested wealth guidelines and the PCs have lots of down time to create specific magic items for the party. The game generally revolves around PC action time units not days per 1,000 GP crafting items. Other than those two types of generally non standard campaigns (Limited magic items and basically unlimited downtime time outs to make magic items (I'm not saying there isn't down time for magic item creation just that it is not a given the PCs get as much as they want before and during each adventure to take time outs to make magic items)) so what exactly makes the Artificer such a good mage killer?

IMO something like a slightly optimized human generalist spellcasting skillmonkey Ranger or Rogue - 1, Factotum - 1, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence or Wisdom), Artificer -3 (Scrolls, Brew Potion and Craft Wonderous), Chameleon -2 (Open bonus Feat you can use for a Crafting feat), Ur Priest - 10 (Rebuke Undead for DMM), Assassin -1 (Death Attack, Poison Use), Monk -1 (Option not to use armor and use that suggested wealth for something else) since it would appear to be a lot stronger in more games than a straight Artificer for being able to deal with more situations including dealing with full casters.

A Artificer -1, Marshal - 1 Motivate Intelligence), Beguiler - 18 (13 if a Gnome for Shadow Craft Mage -5) can scribe scrolls for that single level and maxing UMD with that single level dip in Artificer for any spell not on his spell list. Just taking an Arcane Disciple feat and Craft Wondrous Item in a tight magic campaign does an awful lot.

Artificers are easily the most powerful class in the game.

Wand of Enervation.
Feats empower, maximize, split ray, etc.
Burn charges instead of raising spell level.
Congrats, you just hit him for 20 negative levels.

Level 4 wands are cheap, esp. when you craft em yourself.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-15, 12:39 PM
Mind Blank won't completely block Foresight. Mind Blank blocks divinations targeted at you. The Foresight you are trying to beat is cast on the wizard. What you're trying to beat is the wizard's sense that "I am about to be attacked, I should cast Prismatic Sphere, Teleport Without Error, or some other spell to protect myself. That's the real trick.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 02:52 PM
Mind Blank won't completely block Foresight. Mind Blank blocks divinations targeted at you. The Foresight you are trying to beat is cast on the wizard. What you're trying to beat is the wizard's sense that "I am about to be attacked, I should cast Prismatic Sphere, Teleport Without Error, or some other spell to protect myself. That's the real trick.

I disagree, Foresight is a divination spell, when you attack a wizard or other PC with Foresight up and active you are one of the threats it is trying to detect via divination magic, however with Mind Blank up and in effect your PC is specifically protected Foresight spells since it prevents your detection by divination spells.

kemmotar
2007-11-15, 03:08 PM
Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 03:24 PM
Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

So the "Target:" reading of Foresight says "Universe"? Really?

kemmotar
2007-11-15, 04:11 PM
Well...if you could see the effect of it in such a way,but the target of the spell is you. For example, if an epic spellcasters decided to somehow smite you with an amazing spell from 3 planes away forsight would still work...thus its effect does encompass anyone that harbors an intent to harm you and attacks you. There is nothing to preclude that it won't work against inter-plane attacks...thus it does encompass the whole universe yes...

And no the target reading for forsight is you...i did mention it in my previous post.

[quote]The spell itself is targeted at you[/unquote]

I did not talk about where the spell is targeted but to whom the effect of the spell is targeted, that is anyone attacking you.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-15, 04:48 PM
Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

I feel that's a bit of a stretch, that Mind Blank not only blocks divinations targeted at you, but also divinations on anything that your actions might effect. If it explicitly stated this in the spell description, I'd call it an effective counter, but if it requires a DM judgement call, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call it a house rule (a sensible house rule that addresses a serious game balance issue, but a house rule nonetheless).

kemmotar
2007-11-15, 05:27 PM
Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

Woot Spitum
2007-11-15, 05:40 PM
Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

I'm don't disagree that Foresight is broken, I'm just saying that there's a difference between what the rules are and what the rules should be. House rules are our friends. House rules allow us to deal with problems like this. But when discussing the rules as written, house rules are irrelevant. If the rule/ability/class wasn't broken, there wouldn't be any need to fix it.

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 05:54 PM
Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

The whole point of the spell is to never be caught flat-footed. Yes, like all no-save 9th level spells it has no counter. Except smart ones. You don't rely on catching people flat-footed, you rely on them not having dex to AC. Or flanking. All you have to do is impair them somehow, such as tying them up, or flank.

kemmotar
2007-11-15, 06:34 PM
well...if there is a counter then nobody's found it..and there should be one...if the interpretation of the rules is what we make it to be in the case of foresight, then a counter doesn't exist...a 9th level spell without xp or material costs can't the ultimate "i will never be surprised spell"...it's just too broken imo..there has to be a counter and in my mind it should be mindblank...
the forcage+clopudkill combo that is supposedly instant death has one too many counters and most of them very easily acquired...and its a total of two spells...
foresight is a buff that lasts 4 hours at level 20, has no draback, has no cost except one spell slot...it is not expended when it actually predicts the attack and its application is virtually limitless...

and good luck with trying to tie up or flank a wizard...the very least he can do is gr. dimension door...

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 08:42 PM
well...if there is a counter then nobody's found it..and there should be one...if the interpretation of the rules is what we make it to be in the case of foresight, then a counter doesn't exist...a 9th level spell without xp or material costs can't the ultimate "i will never be surprised spell"...it's just too broken imo..there has to be a counter and in my mind it should be mindblank...

Think about what you are saying here though, it's ninth level spell slot, that's a huge price to pay. And not being surprised isn't very powerful. So you never have Surprise rounds, so you are never flat-footed. All that negates is Sneak Attack, and let you cast a few piddly immediate action spells.

High level Wizards have about a hundred ways to be immune to Sneak Attack, including a seventh level spell with a Duration of hours per level. If I was playing in a game without Celerity (I've played in a few) I wouldn't even have Foresight up.

JaxGaret
2007-11-15, 09:02 PM
I disagree, of course they are the rules, the RAW since they are included in the DMG and the SRD explaining exactly how they apply to the item crafting feats.

This is absolutely wrong.

I suspected as much before, and now my suspicions have been confirmed - if you believe that the magic item creation guidelines are RAW rules, then you aren't as knowledgeable about D&D and how it is actually played as you make yourself out to be.

Please tone down your rhetoric.

Here is what the SRD says on the matter:


Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

kemmotar
2007-11-15, 09:16 PM
i see what you mean...however you can't judge a spell just by what it does give...i also assume the spell you're talking about is elemental body...ofc there are ways to go around sneak attack like being undead or an elemental...and yet a piddle 12.000 gp item can go around that...deathstrike bracers. However, i have found nothing (nor do i think anyone else has) to counter foresight this is exactly what makes it so powerful. And an immediate action isn't all that piddly as you say...there are a lot of ways to abuse immediate actions. One of them is wings of cover which makes you immune to one attack...thus an arrow that would've been a fatal death attack with a sky high fort save is not only negated through foresight (with no way of going around it) but you also get an immediate action, for example wings of cover and you don't even need to worry about a gargantuan arrow coming you way...

There are a lot of ways to use a single immediate action to get out of harm's way...i'm sure and one looking for some will certainly find many...was it the abjurant champion that can cast any abjuration spell as an immediate action? Or was it just shield and mage armor...anyway...lots of ways:smalltongue:

The thing with foresight is not that it only negates surprise rounds, being flatfooted etc, but that it completely neutralizes a class that is based on hiding and catching you off guard without any way around it. It neutralizes among other things rogues, ninjas(i know its a bad example but...), a load of PrCs most of which are quite good actually...

With a rod of extend you can use one 9th level spell slot( and you can have 6 at level 20 with 36 intelligence and a gazillion scrolls which you can make yourself) and with a rod of extend have an 8 hour buff that doesn't go away, cannot be countered in any way and completely neutralizes a base class and a hell of a lot of PrCs...it's not about making them less effective as with being an elemental or undead since that can be used against you with a death attack combined with deathstrike bracers. Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

The whole point of a would be mage killer rogue like character is that he can hide so he can use it to his advantage. If by casting one single spell all the tactic is useless then what's the point of picking up anything that hides and attacks when the enemy can have a permanent foresight item...sure the cost is prohibitive(459k to be exact) but anyone that has gone from level one to level 20 in a campaign...or even from level 10 has in his possession more than one item worth that much...the DMG guidelines seriously grade down the equipment you can have by creating a level 20 PC then from taking him for 1 to 20..

I would think, that since all other spells have a way of going around them, then foresight cannot be the exception. Besides, a straight one on one fight with a wizard is the worst thing you can do and spells death with large bloody letters..the only thing you can do is rely on subterfuge and stealth...If that can be gotten around to so easilly then nothing remains than resign to saying batman kills all the gods, takes over their portofolios and rules all of creation and takes a vacation in the farplane to kill thoon for the fun of it...and maybe kill cthulhu when he gets bored again...

I wouldn't like to think that despite all the imbalances wotc meant the wizard to be the do-all-be-all magnificent agent of destruction...he can be cheesed out so that you can smell him a thousand feet away...but that can again surely has a way of going around it with a proper build and tactic(in a theoretical discussion where you try to make a build to match and kill the other build)...there always is a way...thus there should be one with foresight.

I agree that its not that powerful a spell, but i have to admit that it's pretty unfair...I mean if you have foresight up, even if you don't have see invisibility not only do you not lose your dexterity but you get an extra +2 AC...and you get that for all attacks and spells that are used against you while the spell lasts..so the spell doesn't go away, you can't rehide and ambush him again a few rounds later(perfectly doable by taking the sniping action in the hide skill description by taking a -20...and a level 20 character with hide wouldn't be very troubled by a -20 to beat the wizard's spot dc...)

Its one of the best defence spells around if it absolutely has no counter...

Armads
2007-11-15, 10:06 PM
The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

With the current item creation rules, you can get a +5 weapon (using the -40% cost tricks), for:
50k (base) divided by 2 (crafting) x 60% = 15 000 gp and 2k (or less) xp + masterwork cost + base weapon cost (all of which could be reduced by normal, mundane crafting). That's ridiculously cheap, isn't it? It's normally supposed to cost 50k, but you just saved 35k from crafting it. If you pay the wizard's xp cost off at the suggested rate of 5 gp/xp, that's 25k for a +5 weapon. That's half the price of the item you're normally getting. You can inflate your WBL by 40% just by custom-crafting everything you want to get.

What's "prorating"? Even if it's a typo, I can't figure out what it was supposed to mean. Please cite the rule where no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage.

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 10:09 PM
Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 12:03 AM
This is absolutely wrong.

I suspected as much before, and now my suspicions have been confirmed - if you believe that the magic item creation guidelines are RAW rules, then you aren't as knowledgeable about D&D and how it is actually played as you make yourself out to be.

Please tone down your rhetoric.

Here is what the SRD says on the matter:


Originally Posted by SRD
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.

The Anti Magic Torc from FRCS Underdark is a good example, cast a Anti Magic spell 1/Day for 25,000 GP market using the core Craft Wondrous Item feat and Anti magic spell, most wizard players seem to think that is to cheap for what it does, all the source book is doing is establishing the accepted Cost mechanic for the item to utility in game, a DM can still disallow the item in his game or adjust the cost mechanics, by RAW item creation rules a player can confer with his DM regarding any magic item that could be created using the core rules.

Armad what I posted and you quoted was:

The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

Perhaps "Limited-use" is a better word, FRCS page 61 under building a portal, sure PCs can increase their suggested wealth by level using this method, the biggest benefit would be to a similarly aligned party if PCs ever share their items in game.

Regarding item creation discounts mechanics, yes they increase suggested PC wealth by level. I like it because it is a RAW trick any PC crafter can use to party advantage unless overruled by your DM.

Dode
2007-11-16, 12:19 AM
The custom magic item table also allows a continuous-effect True Strike enchantment for 2000gp. And no sane DM would allow that.

JaxGaret
2007-11-16, 12:20 AM
I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.

The Anti Magic Torc from FRCS Underdark is a good example, cast a Anti Magic spell 1/Day for 25,000 GP market using the core Craft Wondrous Item feat and Anti magic spell, most wizard players seem to think that is to cheap for what it does, all the source book is doing is establishing the accepted Cost mechanic for the item to utility in game, a DM can still disallow the item in his game or adjust the cost mechanics, by RAW item creation rules a player can confer with his DM regarding any magic item that could be created using the core rules.

You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

Think of it this way: custom magic items are not campaign-allowable until DM-approved - instead of your view, which is that any custom magic items that follow the magic item creation guidelines are allowed until the DM disapproves of them.

It just doesn't work like that. DM must approve the item, period.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 01:02 AM
You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

It just doesn't work that way.

No it doesn't, but it does work the way I posted it: Under RAW there are magic item creation rules, these RAW rules permit a players who wants a specific item using core crafting feats and core spells to confer with his DM regarding using the item in his game and at what cost by RAW.

The DM can always say No but most DMs are reasonable, if a player requests to introduce a specific magic item in a game UTILIZING the RAW Magic Item Creation rules as part of his suggested wealth by level, the majority of DMs will grant the player the courtesy of considering his request and the impact of the item on "their" game and IMO most DMs will allow it in some form if it adheres to the item creation rules unless it is to unbalancing for their game or campaign.

IMO most DMS who wouldn't allow a PC to acquire a sack full of Candle of Invocations will allow the same PC to use a magic item or two designed using the magic item creation rules unless it is to unbalancing for their game or campaign.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 01:17 AM
You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

Think of it this way: custom magic items are not campaign-allowable until DM-approved - instead of your view, which is that any custom magic items that follow the magic item creation guidelines are allowed until the DM disapproves of them.

It just doesn't work like that. DM must approve the item, period.

Think of it this way: Candles of Invocation, Planar Ally Spell scrolls, the various Limited Wish, Miracle and Wish magic items, all exist under RAW but still require the same DM approval just like the magic item creation rules.

Yes it does work like that. The DM must approve everything your PC has in his game, period.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 01:24 AM
Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

Unless the PCs are in a game where Mind Blank doesn't protect you from Foresight while protecting a being from the Divine Sensing ability of a God or Power there is always the Commune spell option to get a basic ideal of what the party will be dealing with in game.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 02:08 AM
Unless the PCs are in a game where Mind Blank doesn't protect you from Foresight while protecting a being from the Divine Sensing ability of a God or Power there is always the Commune spell option to get a basic ideal of what the party will be dealing with in game.

I um, what?? You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted right? Are you reading different words then I am?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 02:53 AM
I um, what?? You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted right? Are you reading different words then I am?

An honest mistake, it made me smile when your wizard which has been using level 9 spells throughout this thread had suddenly become an undead lich with a +4 LA template for the arguement with kemmotar when he was being Sneak Attacked. I was simply quoting your response as I'd missed your post where you were casting the Shapechange spell in the thread. So is the wizard a lich because of the Lich template or the Shapechange spell?

The Commune post was just so the PCs would be able to get a basic handle on what they are dealing with.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Just a copy and paste from post #132
Originally Posted by kemmotar
Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

Dode
2007-11-16, 03:05 AM
Kaelik never said anything about a lich template. Just casting an hours-duration spell that gives a Wizard effective Undead type, which includes immunity to sneak-attack.

Edit: Ninja'd

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 03:13 AM
Kaelik never said anything about a lich template. Just casting an hours-duration spell that gives a Wizard effective Undead type, which includes immunity to sneak-attack.

Edit: Ninja'd

My understanding is Kaelik is restricing himself to core spells for this thread. In Post #132 Kaelik quotes kemmotar thinking he is fighting a lich wizard so why didn't Kaelik correct him regarding that point and name the spell he is using? I missed the post where the spell was cast. How is he doing what he is saying? Is he using a non core spell, Shapechange or the Lich template for his response?

Dode
2007-11-16, 03:16 AM
In Post #132 Kaelik quotes kemmotar thinking he is fighting a lich wizard so why didn't Kaelik correct him regarding that point and name the spell he is using? Why bother? He's still wrong.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 03:27 AM
Why bother? He's still wrong.

Not necessarily, if Kaelik is a Lich that's a +4 LA and LA buydown is not a given in all games. If his wizard is a Lich he shouldn't be able to be using level 9 spells in his arguements on the thread without justifying them like from a purchased scroll or other magic item posts I don't recall seeing.

Dode
2007-11-16, 04:01 AM
Not necessarily, if Kaelik is a Lich that's a +4 LA and LA buydown is not a given in all games. Yes necessarily: LA or not, the lich is immune to death attacks and kerunnos' strategy is intrinsically in error.

Secondly, Why bother becoming a Lich when he can throw out an extended Veil of Undeath or Elemental Body? Both of which confer immunity to death and sneak attacks (along with all other benefits of undead type). You know, the spells Kaelik has referenced repeatedly in this discussion.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-16, 05:43 AM
Yes necessarily: LA or not, the lich is immune to death attacks and kerunnos' strategy is intrinsically in error.

Secondly, Why bother becoming a Lich when he can throw out an extended Veil of Undeath or Elemental Body? Both of which confer immunity to death and sneak attacks (along with all other benefits of undead type). You know, the spells Kaelik has referenced repeatedly in this discussion.

I disagree because a lot of the theads play pretty fast and loose with actions, spells and rules. My understanding was that in this thread Kaelik was limiting himself to core with the SRD for the debate and those spells were not an option which is why he threw in the lich template scenario. Something like casually tossing the +4 LA lich template onto the wizard changes his spell choices, LA buydown is not a given in all games so a Wizard Lich should only have access to level 8 spells without citing using those level 9 spells or explaining how they are being used via an item like a scroll.

kemmotar
2007-11-16, 06:46 AM
The lich is immune to sneak attack but i did get around that with deathstrike bracers...which does exactly that, go around immunity to sneak attack. Now indeed i totally forgot about immunity to death effects, but they would still get SA damage with deathstrike bracers...and i don't think elemental are immune to death effects are they?

Stephen_E
2007-11-16, 08:27 AM
I feel that's a bit of a stretch, that Mind Blank not only blocks divinations targeted at you, but also divinations on anything that your actions might effect. If it explicitly stated this in the spell description, I'd call it an effective counter, but if it requires a DM judgement call, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call it a house rule (a sensible house rule that addresses a serious game balance issue, but a house rule nonetheless).

I'd popint out that what you doing is using a house rule interetation of divination magic and saying it's RAW while saying someonelses houserule interpretation of divination magic is sensible but only a houserule.

Last I looked DnD Divination magic is much like Illusion magic, badly explained with logic holes that you can drive a tank platoon through without touching the sides. Divination is completely about houserules, which is why all the baloney about Divination magic making Wizards immune from attack is just that, Baloney! It is completely dependant on the DM houserules to make it work. Basically high level Divination magic, indeed most divination magic period, requires the lack of free will and a set future. Since both the entire point of DnD supports the concept of freewill AND the ability to respond to the infomation that divination spells give you and cahnge what happens means the future can't be pre-set.

In short the RAW says Divination magic doesn't work in the way RAW says it does. (in this way it's actually worse than Illusion magic which is merely horribly vague).

From that point on it's all houserules.

Stephen

AKA_Bait
2007-11-16, 09:51 AM
No it doesn't, but it does work the way I posted it: Under RAW there are magic item creation rules, these RAW rules permit a players who wants a specific item using core crafting feats and core spells to confer with his DM regarding using the item in his game and at what cost by RAW.

Not sure I agree with how you are framing this. Under RAW there are magic item creation guidelines in the DMG. These guidelines provide a "starting point" for assigning costs to a particular new magical item if the item's creation is permitted in game.




I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.


This is I think is a frequent confusion about RAW and rule 0. Choosing not to allow a specific item located in the DMG or other supplemet is no different than choosing to allow a specific PrC or accepting the D&D cosmology. These are specifically in there as choices and the magic item creation guidelines are a way to give the DM additional options if they find that they want magical items not premade. This in exactly the same vein as the way there is a section on creating your own cosmology. DM's are given a lot of options under RAW but those options are exactly that, options. Using or not using the option is not a decision to limit or modify RAW, it is simply selecting one option under RAW. No option is any more RAW or less RAW than another. It may be the case that reasonable DM's will allow various options to be exercised but it is inaccurate to say that because an option is presented under RAW that the DM's decision not to use said option is an application of rule 0 or DM Fiat. Please remember that the magic item creation guidelines are in the DMG and not the PHB for a reason.

Wolf53226
2007-11-16, 10:29 AM
You know, I read this entire thread, was intrigued by the Foresight VS. Mind Blank spell issue. As I read this thread, I was firmly on the side of Mind Blank not effecting Foresight, but I thought to go look up both spells and read their descriptions again before posting, and I think I changed my mind.


This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

I think this part of the text is very telling, while Foresight doesn't divine the intentions, or specifically need to know anything about why the harmful object is approaching, it basically gathers the information about the surrounding area and processes that into what will harm the person Foresight was cast on. Then we look a little further in the description of Mind Blank.


In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.

In effect, Foresight is scrying the area looking for things that will harm you, now I know that Foresight isn't worded that way, but that is basically what the effect is, so it would seem to me, that Foresight wouldn't see you.

As for the argument that it's a 9th level spell, so are Miracle and Wish, and their effects are blocked by Mind Blank.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 01:34 PM
My understanding is Kaelik is restricing himself to core spells for this thread. In Post #132 Kaelik quotes kemmotar thinking he is fighting a lich wizard so why didn't Kaelik correct him regarding that point and name the spell he is using? I missed the post where the spell was cast. How is he doing what he is saying? Is he using a non core spell, Shapechange or the Lich template for his response?

Your understanding is wrong. First of all, I made one statement to one poster that I could build a Core Wizard that could defeat any Core non-caster. If you had actually been reading what I was saying before that statement and ever since that poster left I have made it abundantly clear that I have never played a game with the Core only restriction and I never intend to. I hate the core only restriction that people attempt to foist on others only because some commonly used option completely negates their strategy.

I didn't correct him on fighting a Lich (Or I didn't correct him on whether he was, I did correct him on what would happen.) because no one is duelling anyone else on this thread. Maybe he runs into Liches in game, I don't know. I would never tell someone else what they are allowed to fight in game.

So to answer your question, I never used the Shapechange spell, or the Lich Template. I also never claimed to be a Lich. I did however cast Elemental Body (and in some situations Veil of Undeath.) And some of my characters are also Necropolitians. (Mostly only the Necromancers.)

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 01:36 PM
Why bother? He's still wrong.

About what? I said that the Lich doesn't need to make a Fort Save to ignore your Death Attack. He doesn't. That seems to be the very definition of being right to me.

kemmotar
2007-11-16, 05:28 PM
Maybe he was talking about my mistake forgetting that undead are immune to death effects...

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 05:40 PM
Maybe he was talking about my mistake forgetting that undead are immune to death effects...

Oh. Sorry. I actually have a fatal flaw in these forums. I usually just look at avatars. So the two of you confused me there, but even when I went back (after realizing there where actually two posters) I thought that was your comment, so I thought you were saying I was wrong.

Also
@CASTLEMIKE
Why would you expect me to be only using core when kemmotar was clearly talking about his use of Death Strike Bracers, an item that is very obviously not Core.

Stephen_E
2007-11-17, 05:10 AM
Of course the counter to the Wizard with Forsight/Celerity/Timestop is a Magekiller Pixie design wielding a spiked chain (with a spell disruption effect to takeout overland flight) covered in Dust of Dissappearance. They move to 5' above you with a held action set to attack anyone casting a swift spell before going into inititive, with a contingency AMS triggered by any contingency spell cast within 15'.

If the mage moves more than 5' you get an AAO, if he swift casts you attack and should do enough damage (mageslayer feat chain) to cause him to fail his concentration spell to get the spell off, if he tries and casts a normal spell you attack because he can't defensively cast, if he has a contingency escape spell your contingency AMS kicks in killing all magic, that's assuming his Forsight even works on you given you're mindblanked, non-detection (Occult Slayer) with Dust of Diassappearance - so he can't even see you with True seeing.

Now while it's true the Wizard could just doing nothing, which pins the Mageslayer from doing anything without losing the readied action, that's what the rest of the mageslayers party is for, killing the Wizard. You can just imagine it. The Wizard and the Mageslayer locked in immobility because to act is to give the game away, watching the fight between the Wizard's minions and the mageslayers party, knowing if the otherside's support forces win they're screwed.

Stephen

kemmotar
2007-11-17, 08:17 AM
So what classes are you going to be using? SA i would say is the most damaging way in few hits but then again can't be used if foresight isn't affected by mindblank. Also, you would lose 4 points of BAB so you can't really afford to take a low BAB class and lose more than that. Also i wonder how your contingency could kick in before the contingency teleport (as an example for an escape spell) kicks in. Besides, in order for contingency to activate you have to be able to see the trigger. So you can't say that as soon as his contingency escape spell kicks in AMF kick in since you wouldn't see the wizard casting anything. Thus the only indication that there was a contingency teleport is the wizard disappearing.

Maybe you could go around that with ring of spell battle. It allows you to sense any spell being cast within 30 ft and you can recognise it with a spellcraft check and then with another spellcraft check (1/day) as an immediate action redirect the target of the spell...you can also choose an invalid target to waste the spell...Thus you sense the teleport before it happens and since you know the spell is being cast contingency AMF kicks in.

Also, later in the battle you can redirect any really dangerous spells back to the caster as an immediate action to have a chance at killing him with his own spell (oh the irony...)

and there is a pretty easy way to go around dust of disappearance and any invisibility for that matter. Permanent arcane sight. You can see the magical auras, thus even when the other is invisible you can see the magical aura of his invisibility and items...

EDIT: and yes i do use more than core since i find using only core for this silly. In core wizards are the ultimate machines of destruction...only later was this realised and they got books out in the attempt to balance things out...Now how far they got is of no importance...with the materials given in both core and SRD we have to make the ultimate mage-killer:smallbiggrin:

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 12:23 PM
Now while it's true the Wizard could just doing nothing, which pins the Mageslayer from doing anything without losing the readied action, that's what the rest of the mageslayers party is for, killing the Wizard. You can just imagine it. The Wizard and the Mageslayer locked in immobility because to act is to give the game away, watching the fight between the Wizard's minions and the mageslayers party, knowing if the otherside's support forces win they're screwed.

Stephen Wait, you're saying that your mageslayer can't actually kill his target and relies on other people to kill it? What about the wizard's party? Does that mean that the mageslayer only wins if his allies are better than the wizard's allies? What happens if the wizard took leadership? What if the wizard is being guarded by a greater planar ally? What if the wizard created an army of undead and/or golems?

When coming up with builds like this, you should assume that you are facing your target alone. While having allies makes sense, there's little limit on what they are, or how many of them there are.