Explain like I'm Five: DSP's Zealot Features

[PraxisVetli]

So I'm confused by DSP's Zealot class features, notably the differences between initiating maneuvers through Collective members, Echoes of Steel, and the Strike of Unity Conviction.


A zealot can initiate certain maneuvers through his
collective. If a zealot maneuver specifies one or more
willing targets (or is harmless) and has a range greater
than personal, he can initiate this maneuver on a
member of his collective regardless of the range of the
actual maneuver. All other non-range restrictions still
apply.


When the zealot initiates a maneuver at least one
level below his maximum maneuver level known, he
can spend 1 power point per maneuver level to grant
a member of his collective the ability to initiate that
maneuver one time within 1 minute or until the zealot
chooses to recover the maneuver. This is not considered
an augment and does not count against the maximum
amount of power points the zealot can spend on the
maneuver.
The maneuver becomes a known and readied
maneuver for that ally, using the zealot’s initiator level
and initiation modifier. After the zealot’s ally initiates
the maneuver or 1 minute passes, it is expended and the
echo ends. This does not cause the creature to unlearn a
maneuver it knows from other sources.

The zealot can spend 5 power
points when initiating a strike to initiate that maneuver
through a member of the zealot’s collective. The strike
is resolved in all ways as if the zealot’s ally had initiated
it (in terms of base attack bonus, weapons, feats, line
of sight, reach, cover, etc.). This is not considered an
augment and does not count against the maximum
amount of power points the zealot can spend on the
maneuver. A zealot must be at least 10th level before
selecting this conviction.
To me, these all say the same thing, so surely I'm missing some detail or three.
My guess, is that the Collective perk allows only Boosts, Echoes of Steel allows Collective members to use a maneuver using my numbers, and Strike of Unity allows them to use their own numbers? I'm really not sure here.
What's the difference between the three, that I might use them all to their fullest potential?

[Ramza00]

Collective: Some beneficial maneuvers require you to touch an ally or are close ranged already. Collective allows them to be medium range and eventually long and even longer range. I can now do Reunion in Dreams from sleeping goddess and teleport people 170 feet away at HD7

Echoes of Steel. I as a Zealot do a thing, then I can make an ally whether a human pc, or a bird familiar, or my psi crystal also do a thing on the next turn. Thus they can shoot laser beams vis elemental flux or at HD9 they can donate actions via gift of time.

Strike or Unity. Many attacks are melee only, some are ranged. My ally can be across the battlefield wielding a different weapon and with Strike of Unity instead of using my sword to do the maneuver your ally with his mace can do the maneuver. Besides giving range this can also be used to do things that bypass cover.

[PraxisVetli]

Collective: Some beneficial maneuvers require you to touch an ally or are close ranged already. Collective allows them to be medium range and eventually long and even longer range. I can now do Reunion in Dreams from sleeping goddess and teleport people 170 feet away at HD7
So the Collective just ignores the range on a maneuver, do long as it's used on a member of my Collective?
It doesn't let them do my maneuvers, it enhances how I use my own on them?
But it has to be a beneficial maneuver; like Golden Lion's Pride Boost, correct?



Echoes of Steel. I as a Zealot do a thing, then I can make an ally whether a human pc, or a bird familiar, or my psi crystal also do a thing on the next turn. Thus they can shoot laser beams vis elemental flux or at HD9 they can donate actions via gift of time.
This makes me feel dumb just because now that you've explained it, and it's called Echoes of Steel, I should've figured it out.
It doesn't let them do my maneuvers, it lets them replicate my maneuvers, so long as I do not recover it before they use it..which seems like an important detail since I intend to recover constantly.




Strike or Unity. Many attacks are melee only, some are ranged. My ally can be across the battlefield wielding a different weapon and with Strike of Unity instead of using my sword to do the maneuver your ally with his mace can do the maneuver. Besides giving range this can also be used to do things that bypass cover.
I don't understand this one still.
This one does let them do my maneuver? And that's it? Or rather, I do it, but with their numbers, and from their location? Is that it?

[Kitsuneymg]

Strike of Unity essentially lets an ally initiate a maneuver you just used instead of you. You’re still technically the one doing it, but you use their feats, position, weapons, stats, ranks in a skill, etc.

So you could initiate a strike using an ally’s location and weapon to avoid needing to get into melee yourself. You could initiate a counter to protect an ally. You might be able to use Clockwatcher to let an ally act in a surprise round, or break the hourglass to give them an extra full round action. Essentially, you initiate a maneuver, but it’s like they just did.

[Ramza00]

So the Collective just ignores the range on a maneuver, do long as it's used on a member of my Collective?
It doesn't let them do my maneuvers, it enhances how I use my own on them?
But it has to be a beneficial maneuver; like Golden Lion's Pride Boost, correct?
Yes but also no. That collective by itself is like that, but there are other class abilities, feats, etc which makes collective do more than that.

If we look from a meta perspective, Collective is a thing from 3rd Party 3.5 psionics from the mid 00s called The Society Mind. It was then brought to Dreamscarred Psionics with the Voyager 9th level class, Tactician 9th level class, some class archetype for 6th level casters and maneuvers, and so on. Eventually the Zealot got it.

The collective allows you to do beneficial maneuvers on allies from a range, but also spells and powers.

So let’s say you multiclass a Cleric 4/Zealot 1/Battle Templar 4 prestige class with the Practiced Initiator trait. At HD9 you cast as a 7th level Cleric (losing 2 casting levels at HD5 and 6 from Zealot 1 and Battle Templar 1), and have 5th level Maneuvers due to having an IL of 9, thus 1 5th level Man, 2 4th level (from HD7 via prestige, and HD8 for you can swap aka upgrade maneuvers on IL4, 6, 8, etc)

The collective allows you to share healing with those cleric spells, or cleric buffs, but also share those juicy golden lion buffs from a far range, sleeping goddess, etc with the 20+ disciplines but you are more or less limited to 5 disciplines and really you only have space for 3 but you may have a lone maneuver for discipline 4 and 5.

My point here is the collective is a multi use Swiss army tool by original design, and then later gave to Zealot and also allowed to work with Maneuvers not just Spells and Powers. It is what made some but not all of Psionics special but also it encouraged multiclassing.

And fears and class abilities (such as Echoes of Steel) improve it further for you can do more things if you have a Collective with these other abilities.


I don't understand this one still.
This one does let them do my maneuver? And that's it? Or rather, I do it, but with their numbers, and from their location? Is that it?

Pretty much you are using your actions, sending knowledge of an ability to them, they do it, and it costs them nothing, you did an offensive maneuver with your actions. So they smite the foe for you telekinetically and telepathically command them to do so. Note this is not just another attack from a distance but it can also be things like movement.

For example the 6th level maneuver Crashing Wake from Mithril Current (the discipline that is focused with sheathing your weapon and then do special things when you unsheathe it like an anime samurai.) You get to move up to 30 feet in a straight line or a zig zag. Any person you were adjacent to during that 30 feet you can now attack and the attack gets 4d6 bonus damage. Your ally did this not you, even though it uses your standard or full round action to do the strike. You telepathically told them to do this via the collective and this conviction.


Strike of Unity essentially lets an ally initiate a maneuver you just used instead of you. You’re still technically the one doing it, but you use their feats, position, weapons, stats, ranks in a skill, etc.

So you could initiate a strike using an ally’s location and weapon to avoid needing to get into melee yourself. You could initiate a counter to protect an ally. You might be able to use Clockwatcher to let an ally act in a surprise round, or break the hourglass to give them an extra full round action. Essentially, you initiate a maneuver, but it’s like they just did.

Strike of Unity only works on Strikes, no Counters, no Boosts, no Others / Untyped maneuvers.

[PraxisVetli]

Strike of Unity essentially lets an ally initiate a maneuver you just used instead of you. You’re still technically the one doing it, but you use their feats, position, weapons, stats, ranks in a skill, etc.

So you could initiate a strike using an ally’s location and weapon to avoid needing to get into melee yourself. You could initiate a counter to protect an ally. You might be able to use Clockwatcher to let an ally act in a surprise round, or break the hourglass to give them an extra full round action. Essentially, you initiate a maneuver, but it’s like they just did.
Awesome, thanks!

Yes but also no. That collective by itself is like that, but there are other class abilities, feats, etc which makes collective do more than that.

If we look from a meta perspective, Collective is a thing from 3rd Party 3.5 psionics from the mid 00s called The Society Mind. It was then brought to Dreamscarred Psionics with the Voyager 9th level class, Tactician 9th level class, some class archetype for 6th level casters and maneuvers, and so on. Eventually the Zealot got it.

The collective allows you to do beneficial maneuvers on allies from a range, but also spells and powers.

So let’s say you multiclass a Cleric 4/Zealot 1/Battle Templar 4 prestige class with the Practiced Initiator trait. At HD9 you cast as a 7th level Cleric (losing 2 casting levels at HD5 and 6 from Zealot 1 and Battle Templar 1), and have 5th level Maneuvers due to having an IL of 9, thus 1 5th level Man, 2 4th level (from HD7 via prestige, and HD8 for you can swap aka upgrade maneuvers on IL4, 6, 8, etc)

The collective allows you to share healing with those cleric spells, or cleric buffs, but also share those juicy golden lion buffs from a far range, sleeping goddess, etc with the 20+ disciplines but you are more or less limited to 5 disciplines and really you only have space for 3 but you may have a lone maneuver for discipline 4 and 5.

My point here is the collective is a multi use Swiss army tool by original design, and then later gave to Zealot and also allowed to work with Maneuvers not just Spells and Powers. It is what made some but not all of Psionics special but also it encouraged multiclassing.

And fears and class abilities (such as Echoes of Steel) improve it further for you can do more things if you have a Collective with these other abilities.



Pretty much you are using your actions, sending knowledge of an ability to them, they do it, and it costs them nothing, you did an offensive maneuver with your actions. So they smite the foe for you telekinetically and telepathically command them to do so. Note this is not just another attack from a distance but it can also be things like movement.

For example the 6th level maneuver Crashing Wake from Mithril Current (the discipline that is focused with sheathing your weapon and then do special things when you unsheathe it like an anime samurai.) You get to move up to 30 feet in a straight line or a zig zag. Any person you were adjacent to during that 30 feet you can now attack and the attack gets 4d6 bonus damage. Your ally did this not you, even though it uses your standard or full round action to do the strike. You telepathically told them to do this via the collective and this conviction.



Strike of Unity only works on Strikes, no Counters, no Boosts, no Others / Untyped maneuvers.
Duly noted, Strikes only!

Thanks a lot guys, I knew there was something(s) I was missing but the similar wording in them all had me so thrown off. Very grateful for your explanations.


Y'all ever notice how fun Radiant Dawn is with a Zealot? What a blast.

[Ramza00]

Radiant Dawn is the best. I am a fan of Elemental Flux (for Versatility, though it wants a level 1 dip into Mystic, Rajah, Parasite, Rubato Bard, etc), Riven Hourglass, and Sleeping Goddess. That is 4 disciplines and it is hard to get all 4 in a single class character.

Sunstroke (Radiant Dawn 4) plays real nice with your abilities including maneuvers but also your allies. Furthermore if you have an ally spellcaster who can channel spells into his weapon you now have a multi platform Save or Suck/Die effect as a miniature fireball.