Devotion Paladin with great Ability rolls. Advice on feat path?

[Beelzebubba]

I'm playing an Aasimar Devotion Paladin in Curse of Strahd.
(Please, no spoilers, or advice on optimizing specifically for the module. Just my builds.)

I rolled really well on Ability scores, so I have options.
(18 Str, 16 Con, and 18 Cha to start!)

My party consists of:

Human Lycan Blood Hunter - Dual-wielding Barbarian + skill monkey
Human Grave Cleric - tanky, and focuses on enemy debuffs more than party buffs
Kobold Wild Sorcerer - Balance of single-target damage and battlefield control


I am 3rd level, 'sword and board'.
I have two paths in mind, and was wondering how they worked out in practice.

-----

Idea 1: Tanky Tank
Fighting Style: Defense
4: Feat: Heavy Armor Master
8: Feat: Inspiring Leader


+ The idea here is pure tanking and survivability, so I lead with my chin and draw fire
+ I boost damage only with Smite, Spells, oath/ Aasimar buffs - otherwise, it's low
+ Reliably set up the Lycan to do extra damage once Skill Expert comes online at cost of attack
+ Ooodles of Temp HP for the party feels great to do
- Lose the benefit of the +1 ASI
= I don't have many Bonus Actions or Reactions, will it be boring?

Idea 2: Combat Controller
Fighting Style: Dueling
4: Feat: Sentinel
8: Feat: Shield Master


+ I have a reliable Reaction attacks and (later) Bonus actions - lots of choices to be made
+ Sentinel gives me actual battlefield control and a lot more damage output
+ Frequently set up the Lycan to do extra damage once Shield Master comes online, for free
- I'll be taking a lot of hits and damage when I'm in the mix
- Concentration spells will be less reliable, so less spell utility even with high Cha score
= Probably the most fun, can I survive it?

-----

Anyone play any builds like this care to chime in?
I'm having a really hard time deciding.
Thanks in advance.

[CheddarChampion]

Given your party composition, do you need to specialize in protecting your companions?
2/3 of them are themselves tanky, right?

I'd go more of a damage & support route:
Take Inspiring Leader at level 4, switch to Dueling Style if you don't have it already (via Tasha's rules).
At level 8 take Cha +2, Polearm Master, Shield Master, or Warcaster.
Depending on your character concept, you could multiclass into a level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and get the Booming Blade cantrip to synergize with Warcaster.

Bless is a good spell to help support. Shield of Faith is good if you need to AC tank. Wrathful Smite is good if you're up against a brute. Thunderous Smite is good if you and the Blood Hunter need to pile damage on to one creature.

[RogueJK]

I am 3rd level, 'sword and board'.

Idea 1: Tanky Tank
Fighting Style: Defense
4: Feat: Heavy Armor Master
8: Feat: Inspiring Leader

I don't have many Bonus Actions or Reactions, will it be boring?

Idea 2: Combat Controller
Fighting Style: Dueling
4: Feat: Sentinel
8: Feat: Shield Master


Alternatively, consider Polearm Master with "spear and board". Heavy Armor, Shield, and Spear, like a Greek Hoplite. Paladins really benefit a lot from PAM. Yes, you'd be going from a 1d8 sword to a 1d6 spear, but the loss of 1 point of average damage on your normal damage dice is more than made up for by the new BA attack doing 1d4+4 (6.5), plus the additional chance to land a Smite (or Critical Smite) each turn.

You can tweak either build version to incorporate PAM:

With Idea 1, drop HAM in favor of PAM, and you now have reliable uses for both your Bonus Action and your Reaction.

With Idea 2, drop Shield Master, bump Sentinel to 8, and take PAM at 4. You now have an additional attack to benefit from Dueling's +2 damage bonus, plus have a reliable use for your Reaction, and can also utilize Sentinel's speed reduction with the special OA on approach from PAM.


And you can also use the PAM Bonus Action attack to shove an enemy prone, like you could with Shield Master's BA Shove. But with PAM you get the option of either making an attack or shoving, whereas Shield Master locks you into only shoving. With PAM you can also shove with your first attack, and then still getting 2 attacks on your turn against the now prone enemy, at Advantage to increase the chance of a Critical to combo with a Smite. PAM is a strictly better Bonus Action option than Shield Master. And with your Paladin aura to add +CHA to all saves coming online at Paladin 6, you don't really need the +2 DEX bonus from Shield Master either.

[Beelzebubba]

Given your party composition, do you need to specialize in protecting your companions?
2/3 of them are themselves tanky, right?

I'd go more of a damage & support route:
Take Inspiring Leader at level 4, switch to Dueling Style if you don't have it already (via Tasha's rules).
At level 8 take Cha +2, Polearm Master, Shield Master, or Warcaster.
Depending on your character concept, you could multiclass into a level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and get the Booming Blade cantrip to synergize with Warcaster.

Bless is a good spell to help support. Shield of Faith is good if you need to AC tank. Wrathful Smite is good if you're up against a brute. Thunderous Smite is good if you and the Blood Hunter need to pile damage on to one creature.

Interesting going Inspiring Leader up front. 8 temp HP per short rest at 4th level IS damn strong.
Did you ever feel the lack of Bonus actions or Reactions? I'm enjoying the hell out of my Rogue in Rime of the Frostmaiden and got bored with a Barbarian in another game.

No multiclassing this campaign, Feats only.
DM says there are MC opportunities in the module, so I'm waiting for that.

[stoutstien]

Interesting going Inspiring Leader up front. 8 temp HP per short rest at 4th level IS damn strong.
Did you ever feel the lack of Bonus actions or Reactions? I'm enjoying the hell out of my Rogue in Rime of the Frostmaiden and got bored with a Barbarian in another game.

No multiclassing this campaign, Feats only.
DM says there are MC opportunities in the module, so I'm waiting for that.

The Interception fighting style and selection of bonus action spells will keep you busy. Divine favor, shield of faith, all the smite spells (wrathful), magic weapon, and compel duel are all low level bonus action options.

[Beelzebubba]

Alternatively, consider Polearm Master with "spear and board". Heavy Armor, Shield, and Spear, like a Greek Hoplite.
---
You can tweak either build version to incorporate PAM:

I didn't think about the spear route. Those are are tempting builds.

The thing is, I'm leery of getting specialized into a specific weapon type so early. This campaign is 'by the book', so I wouldn't be able to respec a Feat until the next ASI.

That's why I'm mostly considering 'general' Feats. I'll go PAM or GWM or whatever at 8th level if I happen to get a sweet magic weapon by then.


And you can also use the PAM Bonus Action attack to shove an enemy prone, like you could with Shield Master's BA Shove. But with PAM you get the option of either making an attack or shoving, whereas Shield Master locks you into only shoving.

I believe that part's incorrect about shoving with the bonus action attack, via Jeremy Crawford Sage Advice when his Twitter rulings were canon (and he overruled Mike Mearls on it too, lol (https://www.sageadvice.eu/6052/)).

If the feat said 'you can attack once with your bonus action', I'd agree with you. But, it's 'with the opposite end of the weapon', so it's not a general attack action. It's specific, and specific trumps general. So, I'd rule it that way too.

The rest is absolutely true, though, with the order of shoves and attacks. Definitely more damage potential than shield master. I think Sheild Master would still be just as worth it for the Evasion, though.

[Beelzebubba]

The Interception fighting style and selection of bonus action spells will keep you busy. Divine favor, shield of faith, all the smite spells (wrathful), magic weapon, and compel duel are all low level bonus action options.

I guess I'll trust you that it feels like 'enough' at higher levels.

Right now, we're at 3rd, and my three spell slots seem to evaporate in back-to-back fights with Undead.

Thanks for the advice. It helps.

[Beelzebubba]

Bless is a good spell to help support. Shield of Faith is good if you need to AC tank. Wrathful Smite is good if you're up against a brute. Thunderous Smite is good if you and the Blood Hunter need to pile damage on to one creature.

One other question, did you find yourself losing many concentration checks before 6th level?

Con of 16 does make the failure chance about 1/3 most times. (+3, save of 10, fail w/ roll of 1-6, so 30%.)

I haven't played a martial spellcaster yet this edition, so I'm a bit paranoid of losing those buffs easily - a bit less so for Shield of Faith, but still.

[Corvino]

I understand the Curse of Strahd has a lot of Undead foes. Don't underestimate Protection from Good and Evil as a defensive buff. You could end up with enemies having disadvantage to hit you and advantage on your saves a lot of the time. Between that and heavy armour your defenses should be solid.

Given that, building toward higher damage output could be useful. Great Weapon Master/Polearm Master if you choose to go 2-handers. If you're sword and board then while Sentinel & Shield Mastery give control/tanking ability they also generate a fair few extra attacks over a campaign, and coupled with Duelling style can give a respectable damage output. Spending an ASI to get your Strength to 20 could be worthwhile too.

[RogueJK]

One other question, did you find yourself losing many concentration checks before 6th level?

Con of 16 does make the failure chance about 1/3 most times. (+3, save of 10, fail w/ roll of 1-6, so 30%.)

I haven't played a martial spellcaster yet this edition, so I'm a bit paranoid of losing those buffs easily - a bit less so for Shield of Faith, but still.

That's the great thing about Bless, Shield of Faith, or Protection from Good or Evil... These Concentration buffs also serve to make you less likely to fail Concentration checks (Bless) or even need them in the first place (SoF/PFGE).

For either of the two Paladins I've played, Bless has been my go-to Concentration spell, 9 times out of 10.

[Pex]

Ask your DM if he would allow the bonus action Shove from Shield Master to occur before you take your attacks. You don't need it to since the idea is to make the opponent prone for your party, but it would be nice for the chance to have the advantage on your attacks for the turn. If no that's fine; it's still a fine strategy. If yes it gives you more tactical options. Either way sometimes you want to move someone instead of tripping, and it could even be a party member.

Don't worry about no ASI. 18s in ST and CH is plenty up to level 8. If the campaign continues on to level 12 I suggest boosting CH before ST for the saving throw bonus.

[LudicSavant]

I'm playing an Aasimar Devotion Paladin in Curse of Strahd.
(Please, no spoilers, or advice on optimizing specifically for the module. Just my builds.)

I rolled really well on Ability scores, so I have options.
(18 Str, 16 Con, and 18 Cha to start!)

My party consists of:

Human Lycan Blood Hunter - Dual-wielding Barbarian + skill monkey
Human Grave Cleric - tanky, and focuses on enemy debuffs more than party buffs
Kobold Wild Sorcerer - Balance of single-target damage and battlefield control


I am 3rd level, 'sword and board'.
I have two paths in mind, and was wondering how they worked out in practice.

-----

Idea 1: Tanky Tank
Fighting Style: Defense
4: Feat: Heavy Armor Master
8: Feat: Inspiring Leader


+ The idea here is pure tanking and survivability, so I lead with my chin and draw fire
+ I boost damage only with Smite, Spells, oath/ Aasimar buffs - otherwise, it's low
+ Reliably set up the Lycan to do extra damage once Skill Expert comes online at cost of attack
+ Ooodles of Temp HP for the party feels great to do
- Lose the benefit of the +1 ASI
= I don't have many Bonus Actions or Reactions, will it be boring?

With few exceptions, I don't advise taking half-feats if you're not getting the benefit of evening out an odd stat. Unsurprisingly, full feats tend to be better than half-feats if you aren't benefiting from the extra +1 ASI. Inspiring Leader shouldn't be at 8... it should be first! That feat is pure gold if your party doesn't already have temp HP generation.

Also: Heavy Armor Master, Inspiring Leader, and Defense are all contributing to making you very durable against conventional attack rolls. Which is fine, but the greatest defenses are A) well-rounded ('a defense is as strong as its weakest link') and perhaps even more importantly B) leveraged. That is to say, you need to be giving enemies a reason to pay attention to your presence on the battlefield proportional to how tough it is to attack you, or any extra investments in toughness might be overkill (because you might already be past the point where the enemy would rather just eat an OA than attack you).

So for example, you might take Dueling instead of Defense on build 1 (since it's already tough enough, but could use more teeth). Or switch out Heavy Armor Master for something else (like PAM, perhaps).

[Beelzebubba]

This is all excellent, thanks.
I'm going Duelling fighting style at a minimum.

The repeated mentions for Inspiring Leader at 4th level were really surprising. I did the math and the boost is serious.
It even makes the Grave Cleric's 'False Life' spell obsolete, it's so good.


That's the great thing about Bless, Shield of Faith, or Protection from Good or Evil... These Concentration buffs also serve to make you less likely to fail Concentration checks (Bless) or even need them in the first place (SoF/PFGE).

I did the math, and it War Caster is a lot less necessary than I thought! It's a bit risky for some concentration spells before 6th level, but after that it's solid.

...Inspiring Leader is now the front-runner.

But, I'm still tempted by Sentinel.


A few times I've wanted to stop a Ghoul or a 'big bad' from attacking our spellcasters, and couldn't.
When i'm teamed up next to the Lycan, getting in extra hits on a Reaction (even if they're only 1d8+6) adds up.
If I have any one of my damage boosts going - i.e. from Channel Divinity, Radiant Soul, Divine Favor, whatever - then it's even more value from them.
And, if we're all wailing on a Big Bad™, I could lay down multiple smites in a turn.


Still, I think Sentinel might end up waiting until 8th level.

We're just starting the main adventure (after surviving the Death House intro module), and the reality of 'well, ****, we're trapped in Barovia now' might be a good place for the Paladin to start exerting spiritual leadership.

Thanks, everyone!

[stoutstien]

Odd suggestion, you could go for utility and flexibly over making yourself better at what you are already great at. The IL feat is straight gold but you could do something like telekinetic and fey touched (DW) for battlefield shaping and mobilty. Getting 2 extra spells known and free castings help a ton on half caster progression.

[Fatefulforce]

I'm playing an Aasimar Devotion Paladin in Curse of Strahd.
(Please, no spoilers, or advice on optimizing specifically for the module. Just my builds.)

I rolled really well on Ability scores, so I have options.
(18 Str, 16 Con, and 18 Cha to start!)

My party consists of:

Human Lycan Blood Hunter - Dual-wielding Barbarian + skill monkey
Human Grave Cleric - tanky, and focuses on enemy debuffs more than party buffs
Kobold Wild Sorcerer - Balance of single-target damage and battlefield control


I am 3rd level, 'sword and board'.
I have two paths in mind, and was wondering how they worked out in practice.

-----

Idea 1: Tanky Tank
Fighting Style: Defense
4: Feat: Heavy Armor Master
8: Feat: Inspiring Leader


+ The idea here is pure tanking and survivability, so I lead with my chin and draw fire
+ I boost damage only with Smite, Spells, oath/ Aasimar buffs - otherwise, it's low
+ Reliably set up the Lycan to do extra damage once Skill Expert comes online at cost of attack
+ Ooodles of Temp HP for the party feels great to do
- Lose the benefit of the +1 ASI
= I don't have many Bonus Actions or Reactions, will it be boring?

Idea 2: Combat Controller
Fighting Style: Dueling
4: Feat: Sentinel
8: Feat: Shield Master


+ I have a reliable Reaction attacks and (later) Bonus actions - lots of choices to be made
+ Sentinel gives me actual battlefield control and a lot more damage output
+ Frequently set up the Lycan to do extra damage once Shield Master comes online, for free
- I'll be taking a lot of hits and damage when I'm in the mix
- Concentration spells will be less reliable, so less spell utility even with high Cha score
= Probably the most fun, can I survive it?

-----

Anyone play any builds like this care to chime in?
I'm having a really hard time deciding.
Thanks in advance.

Heavy armour master is a fantastic feat low to mid-level. So I would stick with it. The only thing to consider is you have an even number of Str. Heavy armour master gives you 1 str so it will make it odd. Can you move one point of str somwhere else to round out another stat b/c you are going to get that +1str at lvl 4 anyway?

Inspirational leader is also really good so I agree with your choices here.



If you want to be the damage magnet you are better off going protection over defence b/c you want to force the enemies to hit you rather than avoid you.

If they can't hit you they will go for a softer target they can hit and your defence style is wasted. This is true for intelligent enemies if a DM plays them that way.

When creatures know they have a difficult time (disadvantage) to hit another player they then have to make a hard choice of hitting the tank or risk missing a less tanky player.

This is how you "tank" in 5e. You have to draw fire beyond just standing in the way of danger.

[LudicSavant]

Heavy armour master is a fantastic feat low to mid-level. So I would stick with it. The only thing to consider is you have an even number of Str. Heavy armour master gives you 1 str so it will make it odd. Can you move one point of str somwhere else to round out another stat b/c you are going to get that +1str at lvl 4 anyway?

Inspirational leader is also really good so I agree with your choices here.



If you want to be the damage magnet you are better off going protection over defence b/c you want to force the enemies to hit you rather than avoid you.

If they can't hit you they will go for a softer target they can hit and your defence style is wasted. This is true for intelligent enemies if a DM plays them that way.

When creatures know they have a difficult time (disadvantage) to hit another player they then have to make a hard choice of hitting the tank or risk missing a less tanky player.

This is how you "tank" in 5e. You have to draw fire beyond just standing in the way of danger.

I agree about the need to demand attention, but don't recommend using Protection, since Interception exists and basically renders it obsolete. It's usually mathematically better (because Protection is used BEFORE determining a hit or miss, but Interception is after. Also because as actual damage reduction it has more combo potential). If anything, it seems like the whole reason Interception exists is to buff Protection.

Protection Fighting Style Math
Protection has a high mathematical chance of being "wasted," since it has to be declared before the roll. This is true whether your AC is high or low, because "the enemy hits despite Prot" and "the enemy would have missed even if you didn't Prot" both count as Prot failing to change the outcome.

Example: AC 15 vs +8 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 49% of the time, would have missed without it 30% of the time, and Protection only makes the difference between a hit and a miss 21% of the time (e.g. does nothing 79% of the time)

Example2: AC 15 vs +4 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 25% of the time, would have missed anyways 50% of the time, and Protection only makes the difference 25% of the time (e.g. does nothing 75% of the time)

Example3: AC 15 vs +12 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 81% of the time, would have missed anyways 10% of the time, and Protection only makes the difference 9% of the time (e.g. does nothing 91% of the time).

Yes, it reduces their critrate too, but it's still only reducing expected incoming damage by a fraction of a single attack per round. And you have to ask yourself, is that small fraction of a single attack per round more than 1d10+Prof, on average? Because that's what the Interception Fighting Style is giving you, and it never wastes your Reaction (since it occurs after a hit is confirmed).

I have created a visual aid, representing the chance that Protection is responsible for negating a single hit:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/465746915087089664/818649280373325854/unknown.png

In other words, applying Disadvantage (before seeing the roll) has a 4.75% to 25% chance of negating a single attack, depending on how likely the monster was to land a non-Disadvantaged attack.

The reason Protection has such a high mathematical chance of being "wasted" is because it has to be declared before the roll. This is true whether your AC is high or low, because "the enemy hits despite Prot" and "the enemy would have missed even if you didn't Prot" both count as Prot failing to change the outcome.

To determine how much damage Protection mitigates (on average) against a given monster, you can basically take the expected damage-on-hit (or crit) of a monster's attack, and then multiply it by the chance the hit (or crit) is negated by Protection.

To determine how much damage Interception mitigates (on average), it's just a straight up 1d10+Prof, since it is declared after a hit is successful. (So, 7.5 average with +2 prof, 11.5 average with +6 prof)

This means that in order for it to compete with the Interception style, the enemy has to be throwing very unusually beefy single attacks.

Note: This chart also applies to any other "apply Disadvantage to the attack before seeing it" abilities, such as the GOOlock's Entropic Ward.



By contrast, Interception takes place after a hit is confirmed, so it's always worth exactly 1d10+prof hp when used (it basically can't "miss"). It also is actual damage reduction, so if an ally has something like Armor of Agathys, it protects those temp HP (similar to Arcane Ward etc).

Many people initially think "well, Interception doesn't scale much, right?" But it doesn't need to scale much in order to be better than Protection. If Interception blocks 1d10+6 HP 100% of the time, that's as good as blocking 57.5 hp 20% of the time... and not a lot of single attacks do 57.5 damage at any level. And if the enemy would have missed, you don't use up your reaction, unlike Protection. Also, it stacks with Disadvantage, unlike Protection.

Edit:

PS: If you're curious how much of a difference it would make if you rerolled for Protection after rather than before seeing the roll, the answer is... quite a lot!

The red bar is how "reroll after seeing that the enemy hit" abilities work, like the Rune Knight's Runic Shield or the Fighter's Indomitable. While the blue bar is Protection / Entropic Ward / other abilities that grant Disadvantage before knowing if the enemy hit.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/819262705776721930/unknown.png

[Beelzebubba]

That's a hell of a data-rich post. :smallcool:

More on that conversation... I'm using the Interception fighting style now, because I wanted to see if a 'control' style would work. It gave me a Reaction that I didn't have before, and the idea that it procs only *after* the hit made it look likely to be efficient.

What I'm discovering is that the positioning required to reliably pull it of is hard to coordinate with other characters. It's the combination of both the target and the attacker *both* needing to be within 5' of me.

I've pulled it off a few times, and at this low level (3rd) it completely negated the attacks, but I know it won't scale, and planned to swap it out - as the character 'came into their own' and I figured out how the rest of the party was going to play combats.

The difference with Sentinel is that only the attacker needs to be within 5' for me to get the free attack.

It looks like a reliable way to plonk extra damage on adversaries in both 'mob' and 'single BBG' scenarios.
On the rounds it procs, for 4th level it's up to a 100% increase in melee damage, and in 5th it's up to 50%.
Add to that the possibility of doing a huge nova round on a BBG with an extra smite and I can't sneeze at it.


If I don't take Sentinal at 4th, odds are I'll take it at 8th.

[Beelzebubba]

Heavy armour master is a fantastic feat low to mid-level. So I would stick with it. The only thing to consider is you have an even number of Str. Heavy armour master gives you 1 str so it will make it odd. Can you move one point of str somwhere else to round out another stat b/c you are going to get that +1str at lvl 4 anyway?

Interesting idea. Maybe. I was considering Skill Expert at 8th if I went that route - i.e. +1 to Strength, Intimidation skill, and Expertise in Athletics or Intimidation.

That said, I could get Resilient Con at 8th, so I'll think about that and ask. It might be more useful if I start relying on concentration spells.

It depends on how the campaign unfolds.

--

PS, to some other advice - we're definitely not heavy optimizers - I'd have started with a Halberd and Greatsword if that were true. :smallwink:

We *do* aim for '65-75% optimal', if you know what I mean. Be effective overall, have some breadth, and embrace a few things being sub-optimal when it makes sense for the character. So, be well-rounded and realistic characters with actual strengths and weaknesses.

I have those 'character build' things already (Survival and Religion as skills even though he's average Wis/Int, because it made such sense with his origin). And I know it's hard to go wrong here, mechanically. I just hate asking for a re-spec, and the utter boredom I'm having with a Barbarian in another game is making me think a bit harder about having enough decisions to make it fun.

[stoutstien]

Interception conditions only require you to be within 5ft of your ally not the attacker as well. The added line to prevent using with attacks targeting you made it a tad hard to follow but you can block spell attacks and arrows just fine.

[LudicSavant]

That's a hell of a data-rich post. :smallcool:

:smallcool:


What I'm discovering is that the positioning required to reliably pull it of is hard to coordinate with other characters. It's the combination of both the target and the attacker *both* needing to be within 5' of me. Only the target needs to be within 5' of you. You can actually put Interception on a ranged character and hang out in the back line if you want -- especially since archers tend to have less use for their reactions!


I've pulled it off a few times, and at this low level (3rd) it completely negated the attacks, but I know it won't scale, and planned to swap it out - as the character 'came into their own' and I figured out how the rest of the party was going to play combats.

The scaling is better than it might intuitively seem; as the math in my last post shows, Interception is still (usually) better than Protection at level 20 since it's guaranteed hp value each time you use that Reaction. And getting 4 extra guaranteed hp per Reaction adds up when you can do it every turn.

[Beelzebubba]

Only the target needs to be within 5' of you. You can actually put Interception on a ranged character and hang out in the back line if you want -- especially since archers tend to have less use for their reactions!
Huh, I was remembering it wrong. Still, I've had a few cases where moving to be next to someone to protect them created more problems than it solved. We're still working out the 'grid' tactics.


The scaling is better than it might intuitively seem; as the math in my last post shows, Interception is still (usually) better than Protection at level 20 since it's guaranteed hp value each time you use that Reaction. And getting 4 extra guaranteed hp per Reaction adds up when you can do it every turn.

Well, I'm not a fan of Protection and was never going to use it. I was suspicious of it anyway due to needing to commit before the dice roll. Your math seals the deal.