How good is Overland Flight?

[danielxcutter]

The good part is that the duration is hours/level, so the moment you can cast it you're flying for most of the day.

The bad part:


This spell functions like a fly spell, except you can fly at a speed of 40 feet (30 feet if wearing medium or heavy armor, or if carrying a medium or heavy load) with average maneuverability.

Yeah, uh, that actually kinda sucks. Average maneuverability means you can't hover and you can't make more than right-angle turns.

I mean it's cost-effective I suppose but this does put a pretty big cramp into aerial combat for gish types. In fact, since you need half forward speed, it makes it a lot harder for normal casters as well.

Is it still worth it? I mean, crap flight is better than none I suppose, but I wonder if it'd be better to cast Persisted Fly or look into items or something like that.

[Tzardok]

Overland Flight, because of it's long duration and the clause that you can hustle without needing to do constitution checks for fatigue, is primarily intended to be for travelling long distances, something that the shorter duration Fly can't do (unless you make it persistent, which requires 7th level spell slots unlike the 5th level of Overland Flight). In exchange, it's not as useful in battle.

Now you may ask: If you want to travel, why not use Teleport? It has the same level as Overland Flight. To that I answer: What if you don't know exactly where you want to go, but need to identify it from the air? What if you've chosen conjuration as your forbidden school? What if the place you want to go is warded against teleportation? Also, teleport miss chance.

Overland Flight isn't superfluous. Wether it's worth it you have to decide for yourself.

[danielxcutter]

Overland Flight, because of it's long duration and the clause that you can hustle without needing to do constitution checks for fatigue, is primarily intended to be for travelling long distances, something that the shorter duration Fly can't do (unless you make it persistent, which requires 7th level spell slots unlike the 5th level of Overland Flight). In exchange, it's not as useful in battle.

Now you may ask: If you want to travel, why not use Teleport? It has the same level as Overland Flight. To that I answer: What if you don't know exactly where you want to go, but need to identify it from the air? What if you've chosen conjuration as your forbidden school? What if the place you want to go is warded against teleportation? Also, teleport miss chance.

Overland Flight isn't superfluous. Wether it's worth it you have to decide for yourself.

The plan is “constant flight as to be able to do aerial combat without wasting a round casting Fly at the start of combat”, so you’re saying Overland Flight doesn’t work for that?

Also Persistent Spell is a +6 metamagic. Did you mostly play with the 3.0 rules?

[Tzardok]

The plan is “constant flight as to be able to do aerial combat without wasting a round casting Fly at the start of combat”, so you’re saying Overland Flight doesn’t work for that?

Also Persistent Spell is a +6 metamagic. Did you mostly play with the 3.0 rules?

It doesn't work as well as a Persistent Fly for that. On the other hand, if you've got enough room for maneuvering the lower maneuverability won't be much of a problem. Stay moving with your move action and cast with your standard action, and everything's well.

Regarding the level adjustment, I'm currently away from my books, so I googled the feat. The first entry gave +4, but it also mentioned Deities and Demigods as a source. I just took that without looking up wether 3.5 changed it.

[danielxcutter]

It doesn't work as well as a Persistent Fly for that. On the other hand, if you've got enough room for maneuvering the lower maneuverability won't be much of a problem. Stay moving with your move action and cast with your standard action, and everything's well.

Hmph. Was asking because of a gish I was theorycrafting. Might just buy Wings of Flying then.

Also it’s really bad for psionic characters then because regaining psionic focus uses a move action. Wow, that sucks.


Regarding the level adjustment, I'm currently away from my books, so I googled the feat. The first entry gave +4, but it also mentioned Deities and Demigods as a source. I just took that without looking up wether 3.5 changed it.

Eh, fair.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alter self lasts 10 min/lvl and grants up to 120' fly speed. By the time you've got overland flight on the table, go ahead and use regular and Extended alter self together, since most casters don't have nearly as much use for very low level spells like that. Plus, it has vastly more utility and versatility, so you're less likely to waste a spell known or spell slot on something you won't use that day.

I guess keeping a scroll of overland flight might be okay for the occasional long-distance travel option where you can't just use one of the myriad options for teleporting to where you need to go.

[danielxcutter]

Alter self lasts 10 min/lvl and grants up to 120' fly speed. By the time you've got overland flight on the table, go ahead and use regular and Extended alter self together, since most casters don't have nearly as much use for very low level spells like that. Plus, it has vastly more utility and versatility, so you're less likely to waste a spell known or spell slot on something you won't use that day.

I guess keeping a scroll of overland flight might be okay for the occasional long-distance travel option where you can't just use one of the myriad options for teleporting to where you need to go.

Alter Self! Good for normal casters. Much less useful for gish types, which was half the point of this thread sadly.

[sreservoir]

The biggest problem with overland flight is, honestly, by the time you can afford a 5th-level spell for all-day flight, you can often just teleport for long-distance travel, you're not too far off from being able to afford permaflight items, a CL 12/14 phantom steed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) is way faster out of combat, and you've been able to finagle persisting a 2nd-level spell forever, because the usual candidates for a persisted flight spell are swift fly and master air, both of which are Personal-range 2nd-level spells with normally very short durations that don't matter when you persist them. (Fly specifically has the problem of Touch range, which probably† can't be persisted.)

(As an aside, ethereal mount (SpC 85) is apparently mass phantom steed now? The 3.0 MotP version only functioned on the ethereal plane; the SpC update deletes that restriction and replaced it with a reference to phantom steed, but, puzzlingly, left the rest of the text in. Anyway, that achieves basically all-day pretty fast out-of-combat flight for the whole party out of a 4th-level slot. Or well, you can fight with it, but 34 hp is pretty easy to take out.)

That said, you may be able to supplement all-day average maneuverability with one of the swift action sources of good+ flight, depending on your needs; there are a couple of items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that give you a few charges/day of that, and/or you can probably prep a copy or two of swift fly (SpC 96). Wings of air (SpC 240), or aerial alacrity (RotW 174) as a swift action, can work similarly to improve you maneuverability directly.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, maybe I should have named this thread "Is Overland Flight good for in-combat flight, and if not then what is?"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alter Self! Good for normal casters. Much less useful for gish types, which was half the point of this thread sadly.Given that alter self also potentially grants improved land speed, a climb speed, a burrow speed, a swim speed, chameleon color-shifting for ambushes, skill bonuses, bonus feats, water-breathing for forms with gills, and natural armor, I can't see how it's not insanely useful for gishes.

[danielxcutter]

Given that alter self also potentially grants improved land speed, a climb speed, a burrow speed, a swim speed, chameleon color-shifting for ambushes, skill bonuses, bonus feats, water-breathing for forms with gills, and natural armor, I can't see how it's not insanely useful for gishes.

At low levels when you have half the physical stats of a dedicated pure martial? Absolutely.

Not quite as much at higher levels. Alter Self replaces your physical stats wholesale, it doesn't suddenly start applying a trogolyte's physical bonuses on top of your base stats.

[Ramza00]

Flight of the Dragon is a good Alternative. Two versions exist

5th level from Draconomicon, lasts 1 hour per level
4th level from Spell Compendium, lasts 10 mins per level, most recent source.

100 feet average is the flight speed.

If average is not enough for you wings of air is a 2nd level spell great for a scroll for those rare cases you need good maneuverability, 4th level greater spell is perfect maneuverability, and elemental body is a 7th level nearly all day version of perfect flight with another fly source.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At low levels when you have half the physical stats of a dedicated pure martial? Absolutely.

Not quite as much at higher levels. Alter Self replaces your physical stats wholesale, it doesn't suddenly start applying a trogolyte's physical bonuses on top of your base stats.Alter self stacks with whatever other buffs you're using (except for the rest of the spells in the polymorph line, wherein there's some overlap). If you're a gish, you're already utilizing buffs to a high degree, so why is adding a massively useful utility spell in the mix a bad thing? Alter self by itself won't make you an ubermensch by itself, but it's got so much benefit for any caster that there's no reason not to have it as a fallback when you don't have anything else to use in 2nd and 3rd level slots and is always worth a spell known (assuming you haven't dumped Transmutation, anyway, and why would anyone do that?).

[Zombimode]

Alter Self replaces your physical stats wholesale, it doesn't suddenly start applying a trogolyte's physical bonuses on top of your base stats.

I don't know which spell you are looking at, but it ain't Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):


You retain your own ability scores.

[danielxcutter]

Flight of the Dragon is a good Alternative. Two versions exist

5th level from Draconomicon, lasts 1 hour per level
4th level from Spell Compendium, lasts 10 mins per level, most recent source.

100 feet average is the flight speed.

If average is not enough for you wings of air is a 2nd level spell great for a scroll for those rare cases you need good maneuverability, 4th level greater spell is perfect maneuverability, and elemental body is a 7th level nearly all day version of perfect flight with another fly source.

Flight of the Dragon and Elemental Body... Interesting!


Alter self stacks with whatever other buffs you're using (except for the rest of the spells in the polymorph line, wherein there's some overlap). If you're a gish, you're already utilizing buffs to a high degree, so why is adding a massively useful utility spell in the mix a bad thing? Alter self by itself won't make you an ubermensch by itself, but it's got so much benefit for any caster that there's no reason not to have it as a fallback when you don't have anything else to use in 2nd and 3rd level slots and is always worth a spell known (assuming you haven't dumped Transmutation, anyway, and why would anyone do that?).

What race, specifically, is a humanoid going to be transforming into that makes everything that worth it at higher levels? Unless the point was dumping your physical stats because you rolled low and using Polymorph spells to replace them, it really doesn't seem to be worth the tradeoff at higher levels.

Also yes, I know Polymorph spells are good. I don't want to use them. Okay?

Edit:


I don't know which spell you are looking at, but it ain't Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

Oh. Okay, then.

Still don't know what humanoid race has 120 ft. flight speed of all things. Unless the assumption is that everyone plays as outsiders or monstrous humanoids for Alter Self cheese.

[Godofallu]

I'm just going to say that Alter Self is my favorite spell in the game and my character has been turning into a Tren since lvl 1 thanks to precocious apprentice.

Here is a handy link for using it http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811.0

For outsiders and aberrations you get some crazy stuff but even normal humanoids can grab Swim, climb, fly, burrow speeds. Tren gets 3 natural attacks, multiattack feat and 8 NA. 8 NA at lvl 1 is a serious buff. So is flight.

But back to overland flight- I have only ever used it for scouting/traveling. Never tried it in combat but I think its useful for a spellcaster or maybe a bow user. Probably bad for a melee combatant with no hover.

[danielxcutter]

I'm just going to say that Alter Self is my favorite spell in the game and my character has been turning into a Tren since lvl 1 thanks to precocious apprentice.

Here is a handy link for using it http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811.0

For outsiders and aberrations you get some crazy stuff but even normal humanoids can grab Swim, climb, fly, burrow speeds. Tren gets 3 natural attacks, multiattack feat and 8 NA. 8 NA at lvl 1 is a serious buff. So is flight.

But back to overland flight- I have only ever used it for scouting/traveling. Never tried it in combat but I think its useful for a spellcaster or maybe a bow user. Probably bad for a melee combatant with no hover.

First of all, what the heck is a Tren? Second, no it can't be at level 1 without some form of cheese(though 8 NA probably is still seriously good at level 3).

A bow user? You mean... a Multishot build?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can get alter self at level 1 through Precocious Apprentice. You can also buy scrolls, I guess, but that's pretty expensive at level 1. Combine with Sanctum Spell to craft level 1 scrolls of it, I guess.

[danielxcutter]

You can get alter self at level 1 through Precocious Apprentice. You can also buy scrolls, I guess, but that's pretty expensive at level 1. Combine with Sanctum Spell to craft level 1 scrolls of it, I guess.

I know not many games start at mid-high levels(I'm in a RHoD campaign and we're still 5th), but how many actually start at level 1 either?

No really, I haven't nearly played enough to get a good grasp on that.

[Asmotherion]

It's an amazing utility spell, and can also give you an advantage over a large percentage of the monster manual (creatures that can't fly and lack a good ranged attack) in combat.

[Ramza00]

Also if you can find a sorcerer to do some crafting here are some good spells to make into eternal wands. Spells you do not even need to have on your spell list :smalltongue: (DMs throw books as a free action)

Primal Hunter (Level 2, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Instinct (Level 3, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Senses (Level 4, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Speed (Level 6, Transmutation)

And lastly Wings of Swift Flying which boosts your speed by 30 feet with flight, 40 if you are dragonblood and is a 1st level spell which is hours per level.

The item level for an eternal wand is 360*Times per day * spell level * caster level plus 100 gp for the mundane item you are grafting it onto aka the wand with a crystal shard core.

360*2*1*8 equals 16 hours per day extra flight. 5760 gp plus 100 gp plus a sorcerer casting the spell once.

[danielxcutter]

Also if you can find a sorcerer to do some crafting here are some good spells to make into eternal wands. Spells you do not even need to have on your spell list :smalltongue: (DMs throw books as a free action)

Primal Hunter (Level 2, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Instinct (Level 3, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Senses (Level 4, Transmutation, better on a wand)
Primal Speed (Level 6, Transmutation)

And lastly Wings of Swift Flying which boosts your speed by 30 feet with flight, 40 if you are dragonblood and is a 1st level spell which is hours per level.

The item level for an eternal wand is 360*Times per day * spell level * caster level plus 100 gp for the mundane item you are grafting it onto aka the wand with a crystal shard core.

360*2*1*8 equals 16 hours per day extra flight. 5760 gp plus 100 gp plus a sorcerer casting the spell once.

I don't see how the Primal X line helps with flight. Nice spells to use, though!

[Eurus]

Okay, maybe I should have named this thread "Is Overland Flight good for in-combat flight, and if not then what is?"

Well, let's start with the most obvious contenders. Fly is good maneuverability, solid speed, and 1 minute per level duration to a single target. If you're unexpectedly attacked and need to get someone in the air, it's a good choice. The duration isn't fantastic, but with Extend Spell at mid levels, 20+ minutes can get you pretty far into a dungeon.

Mass Fly is in the spell compendium, it's a 5th level spell that works like Fly but can get one creature per level. Extended Mass Fly should be good enough for most purposes, but there is one catch: "Each recipient of the spell must remain within 30 feet of at least one other recipient, or the spell ends for the creature that is separated from the others. if only two individuals are affected, the spell ends for both if the distance between them exceeds 30 feet." Fortunately, the expiration clause of Fly should still work here: "Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field."

Then there are the personal spells. Alter Self is lower level and longer duration than Fly, so it's ideal for use on yourself, while Flight of the Dragon has a long duration and high speed. Both good choices if you only care about flight for yourself.

If you need to get the entire party traveling all day by air and also want to be able to defend yourselves if you get attacked, the options are more limited. Wind Walk is the fastest but most vulnerable (to anything that can actually catch you) because it takes 5 rounds to reform, Air Walk is the safest but slowest, and Overland Flight is somewhere in the middle. Phantom Steed (with enough CL to air walk or fly) is fast, maneuverable, and lets you fight normally, but the steeds could get shot down.

If you did want to use Overland Flight in combat, pairing it with Feather Fall would be a cheap way to make it a little more viable in combat. It's still not perfect, but it would be very funny. :smallamused:

[danielxcutter]

I see this is why Wings of Flying are so highly recommended.

[Ramza00]

I don't see how the Primal X line helps with flight. Nice spells to use, though!

Just name dropping the other sorc only spells you should grab with the same logic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The PHBII has the Celestial Sorcerer Wings feat that turns your spells into shots of Red Bull.

[Segev]

If you think of it as wire-fu, that might help. You might not be hovering, but you can glide across chasms and run up walls.

If you want to use it in combat, get Mobility and pounce. Or plan to grapple in your opener so you cling to them or drag them down with you.

[Troacctid]

If you're trying to full attack, it's not ideal. If you're trying to cast standard action spells, it's great. Either way, it's still really strong to have the ability to fly all day long without having to spend an extra action on it. There are plenty of situations where average maneuverability is more than sufficiency. It's a fantastic spell.

If you really want to up it to good maneuverability, you could take Improved Flight as a feat.

[danielxcutter]

If you think of it as wire-fu, that might help. You might not be hovering, but you can glide across chasms and run up walls.

If you want to use it in combat, get Mobility and pounce. Or plan to grapple in your opener so you cling to them or drag them down with you.

Ew, Mobility. :smallyuk:


If you're trying to full attack, it's not ideal. If you're trying to cast standard action spells, it's great. Either way, it's still really strong to have the ability to fly all day long without having to spend an extra action on it. There are plenty of situations where average maneuverability is more than sufficiency. It's a fantastic spell.

If you really want to up it to good maneuverability, you could take Improved Flight as a feat.

Sounds about right yeah. The character in mind would still be better with Wings of Flying though.

[Malphegor]

Personally I prefer Suspension (Shining South) cast upon me boots, and then buy a carriage and use that to build up speed. Down a hill.

Once you’ve attained the speed you want in the direction you mostly want, think of a happy thought, any happy little thought… And you get multiple days-long levitation.

Then all you need is large bits of material to control your direction as you’ve got the thrust and the verticality sorted, you just need some vector controlling flaps on your person.

[Gruftzwerg]

If I got the question/problem right, we are looking for good flight options for gishes:

While having access to some form of flying is great for a gish, you don't want to waste actions on that. As a gish you already have tons of spells that you would like to use at the start of combat. And wasting the buffing round (first round of combat) for just fly is just meh..
And having at least good if not perfect maneuverability is highly recommended for combat. otherwise it will become more of a burden to use it.

You go with Alter Self/Poly for flying combat forms, but that limits the combat power of those spells immense imho and should therefore be avoided.

This is why I would suggest to get all day flight via magic items or with other classes (e.g. warlock & dragon fire adept get 24h fly).

[Psyren]

Pathfinder solved this problem via the Fly skill. It allows for lower-maneuverability fliers to still pull off things like hovering and sharp turns (provided they invest in the skill) rather than simply being barred from using their flight in this way. You might want to port that back to 3.5 if you're not planning to switch so that overland flight bypassed these kinds of issues.

[Maat Mons]

A Pectoral of Maneuverability (Draconomicon, p83) can up your maneuverability by one step, but only if you have wings. It costs 12,000 gp and takes up the vest slot.

[Segev]

Ew, Mobility. :smallyuk:

If you're planning on running around provoking AoOs, it's actually useful. There's also the house rule of making Dodge and Mobility a single feat, if you prefer.

Though another way to make a flying gish who relies on overland flight work is to be ranged. Flit about the sky, firing arrows at things!

[danielxcutter]

If you're planning on running around provoking AoOs, it's actually useful. There's also the house rule of making Dodge and Mobility a single feat, if you prefer.

Though another way to make a flying gish who relies on overland flight work is to be ranged. Flit about the sky, firing arrows at things!

Then again the gish character in mind is a Swiftblade so Mobility's more or less default anyways.

[Buddy76]

Depending on your build, you can use Windwalker (the prestige class) from Faiths and Pantheons. At-will Air Walk by level 3 and a flight speed of 100ft(good) if you stick to it until level 10 (which you probably don't because it's a Swiftblade build). Full Bab and full (divine) casting proggression. Goes great with Mystic Ranger or Sha'ir. It does have Lighting Reflexes, Track and Weapon Focus (Greatsword) as pre reqs, though.

[Calthropstu]

Overland flight is not good at all. If it were, it would have the [Good] descripter. Hope this helps!

[danielxcutter]

Depending on your build, you can use Windwalker (the prestige class) from Faiths and Pantheons. At-will Air Walk by level 3 and a flight speed of 100ft(good) if you stick to it until level 10 (which you probably don't because it's a Swiftblade build). Full Bab and full (divine) casting proggression. Goes great with Mystic Ranger or Sha'ir. It does have Lighting Reflexes, Track and Weapon Focus (Greatsword) as pre reqs, though.

Hmm. Useless for the specific character I'm thinking of, actually quite interesting for a character concept in general! Not sure how good it is for a cleric, but I don't think they get proper flight w/o the Travel domain until Stormrage comes online so it seems nice. And nobody really uses Turn Undead except for fueling divine feats anyways.