Fenris vs Tiamat

[rbetieh]

So, Fenris made the goblinoids, and I presume Tiamat made the Kobolds because they worship her and that seems to be how it works.

Both are lvl 1 encounters for adventurers, and we know at least 1 adventurer that just loves to hunt them down. So, what did Tiamat get right that Fenris got wrong? Dragon protection?

[Worldsong]

So, Fenris made the goblinoids, and I presume Tiamat made the Kobolds because they worship her and that seems to be how it works.

Both are lvl 1 encounters for adventurers, and we know at least 1 adventurer that just loves to hunt them down. So, what did Tiamat get right that Fenris got wrong? Dragon protection?

Tiamat probably didn't go all-in on a 'breed fast die young' mechanic.

Also according to Rich the goblinoids never worshipped anyone before the Dark One so most likely Tiamat also ensured that kobolds got clerics and some measure of representation in divine matters.

[hamishspence]

The integration of kobolds on the Western Continent may be a factor - kobolds, lizardfolk, and humans form an integrated society where kobolds are not seen as monsters but as people.

Whereas on the Northern continent, Kobolds look to me to be in a similar same position as goblins, because no direct Tiamat involvement there.

That's why, in Origin of PCs, they're basically the Order's first combat encounter, with the Order, on seeing them, immediately preparing the attack - preempted by the kobolds attacking first.

[Squire Doodad]

Tiamat had an active role in their existence, while Fenris apparently abandoned the Goblins within a few centuries (or possibly even before the world was finished).
This in turn meant the Goblins had fewer Clerics - thus, fewer in-house sets of goblin adventurers given how vital Clerics can be - and harder integration into other civilizations. Even if the gods a given group worships varies over time - maybe the Halflings that worship Loki were once part of a group of Skadi worshippers - the lack of exposure to any pantheon means that role in an adventuring party is harder to fill.

Even if it might end up being the thing that saves all the gods :smalltongue:

[mjasghar]

One assumes Freddy never answered the goblins’ prayers leading to never having clerics and so forth.
Which is strange as he does have clerics from at least one race

[Squire Doodad]

One assumes Freddy never answered the goblins’ prayers leading to never having clerics and so forth.
Which is strange as he does have clerics from at least one race

He abandoned the goblins specifically; clearly he thought the half-troll or whatever his high priest is was sufficiently badass to qualify as a Cleric.

(I'd say he seems petty enough to refuse to interact with the goblins because they "didn't do their job", though that wouldn't be their fault and there's no actual evidence to imply he would do that.)

[Mechalich]

He abandoned the goblins specifically; clearly he thought the half-troll or whatever his high priest is was sufficiently badass to qualify as a Cleric.

(I'd say he seems petty enough to refuse to interact with the goblins because they "didn't do their job", though that wouldn't be their fault and there's no actual evidence to imply he would do that.)

I'd say it's more likely he refuses to interact with the goblins because he refuses to admit he made a mistake with regards to the whole 'short lifespan, high reproductive rate' bit behind the goblin design. That's exactly the kind of petty negligence one would expect from a CE deity.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Also pretty sure that Kobolds have quite long lives, that likely would have helped too.

[Vikenlugaid]

Well, Thor said Fenris always does that kind of monsters and always get bored when that doesn't work. So we know two things: that tactic is wrong, and Fenris is stubborn (and probably an imbecile).
Tiamat on the other hand looks pretty clever, and we know she care a lot about kobolds (from Malack).

[mjasghar]

Kobolds are inherently less powerful then her main focus (chromatic dragons) so they are more intense in their faith and produce actual clerics which chromatics rarely do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Both are lvl 1 encounters for adventurers, and we know at least 1 adventurer that just loves to hunt them down. So are skeletons. So are bandits.

Also according to Rich the goblinoids never worshipped anyone before the Dark One so most likely Tiamat also ensured that kobolds got clerics and some measure of representation in divine matters. Yeah, her most chaotic majesty is certainly going to demand worship from her created minions ... and for that matter, why aren't you worshipping her??!!
[Tiamat voice]
"How dare you ignore me??!!"

*Tiamat readies one of her five breath weapons*

[rbetieh]

Wait, is the breed fast die young mechanic that horrible to Goblin-kind?
Sure, lots of kids means lots of resources, which implies the need to expand, but that doesn't preclude them from finding ways to peacefully expand or integrate with the other ( I guess to use a term or phrase here) "better engineered" species.

Kobolds integrate when they need to and have Halfling-thwarting Kobold villages when they have to. They also don't seem to be "rare" by any means. More clerics, and on friendly terms with Chromatic Dragons seem like big plusses, but that still makes them a Monster Species that is a Lvl 1 encounter. For some adventurers that is a moving chunk of XP....

Maybe Kobolds are actually more likely to be like KillKill and acutally tend to have non-monster NPC classes?

[Murk]

I'm not sure the kobolds are in a better position at all. Why would they be? Why would they need to be?

The few kobolds we've seen mostly fit into the "easy XP fodder" category as well, as far as they were treated by (humanoid) PCs.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm not sure the kobolds are in a better position at all. Why would they be? Why would they need to be?

The few kobolds we've seen mostly fit into the "easy XP fodder" category as well, as far as they were treated by (humanoid) PCs.

The wiki list 5 notable kobolds:
+ The Oracle
+ Kikil, the chancellor of the empire of Blood
+ Yikyik, Yokyok and Yukyuk, three successive members of the Linear Guild, so arguably PCs. The first two were killed by their nemesis (Belkar), the last one was killed by collateral damage.
=> Out of the "monster races", kobolds are probably those shown to be the most integrated in human societies.

(Additionally, Malack explicitly says that Tiamat prefers Kobolds to Lizardfolks. If this is correct, they do have some advantage compared to Goblinoids which are neglected by Fenrir)

[ebarde]

Tiamat went out of her way to give one of them the gift of prophecy, so I assume they are in her favor at least somewhat.

[Murk]

The wiki list 5 notable kobolds:
+ The Oracle
+ Kikil, the chancellor of the empire of Blood
+ Yikyik, Yokyok and Yukyuk, three successive members of the Linear Guild, so arguably PCs. The first two were killed by their nemesis (Belkar), the last one was killed by collateral damage.
=> Out of the "monster races", kobolds are probably those shown to be the most integrated in human societies.

(Additionally, Malack explicitly says that Tiamat prefers Kobolds to Lizardfolks. If this is correct, they do have some advantage compared to Goblinoids which are neglected by Fenrir)

Oh yes, I was thinking especially of Yokyok who pretty much gets swarmed by adventurers just because he's a kobold.

I guess their lot might be slightly better than that of Goblinoids.

[ebarde]

The Empire of Blood seems weirdly more egalitarian as far as monster races goes.

[Emanick]

The Empire of Blood seems weirdly more egalitarian as far as monster races goes.

I think that’s the whole Western Continent (maybe minus the elven realm), not the Empire of Blood specifically.

[Silly Name]

Oh yes, I was thinking especially of Yokyok who pretty much gets swarmed by adventurers just because he's a kobold.

I guess their lot might be slightly better than that of Goblinoids.

Yokyok gets swarmed by adventurers because Belkar put a bounty on him. It would have worked regardless of race, I think.

[Riftwolf]

Just had a thought that for a Dragon Goddess to get much devotion and souls, she'd need a kobold race. Dragons are few and immortal, they're kobe beef while kobolds are the carrots and peas. Tiamat observed Fenris' get-rich-quick scheme and perfected it by not forgetting the kobolds. So while Fenris lives off Minotaur steak, Tiamat has a better diet of souls.

[danielxcutter]

Just had a thought that for a Dragon Goddess to get much devotion and souls, she'd need a kobold race. Dragons are few and immortal, they're kobe beef while kobolds are the carrots and peas. Tiamat observed Fenris' get-rich-quick scheme and perfected it by not forgetting the kobolds. So while Fenris lives off Minotaur steak, Tiamat has a better diet of souls.

Also if dragons are anything like their "canon" counterparts when it comes to religion... she probably doesn't actually get a whole lot of high-quality stuff besides their souls. Most chromatic dragons at least low-key worship her but devout worship isn't particularly common.

Of course we have absolutely no knowledge about how it works in OotSverse besides the barebones, and it's not like Rich's a stranger to shying away from deviating from the tendencies of "monstrous" races.

[WanderingMist]

Yokyok gets swarmed by adventurers because Belkar put a bounty on him. It would have worked regardless of race, I think.

What Belkar did was put up a bounty poster that said "Kobold Menace Threatens Local Halfling, 20 gp per kobold head". While it was meant to kill Yokyok, who wasn't even evil in the first place, it also was just an excuse to kill other kobolds if an adventurer took up the offer on the poster. That 100% would not work if his enemy had been a human, elf, lizardfolk, etc.

[danielxcutter]

What Belkar did was put up a bounty poster that said "Kobold Menace Threatens Local Halfling, 20 gp per kobold head". While it was meant to kill Yokyok, who wasn't even evil in the first place, it also was just an excuse to kill other kobolds if an adventurer took up the offer on the poster. That 100% would not work if his enemy had been a human, elf, lizardfolk, etc.

I mean, I don’t think Belkar specifically did that to be racist. I think that and killing the goblins who surrendered was about being able to get away with it.

Also I think his enemy being a lizardfolk would have worked, because aside from the Empire of Blood they don’t have much representation.

[Silly Name]

What Belkar did was put up a bounty poster that said "Kobold Menace Threatens Local Halfling, 20 gp per kobold head". While it was meant to kill Yokyok, who wasn't even evil in the first place, it also was just an excuse to kill other kobolds if an adventurer took up the offer on the poster. That 100% would not work if his enemy had been a human, elf, lizardfolk, etc.

That gag was about the trope of adventurers meeting up in taverns and going on the first adventure they get offered, even if extremely vague and barebones. I seriously doubt that if Yokyok was an elf or half-orc or human it wouldn't have worked the same.

[Emanick]

That gag was about the trope of adventurers meeting up in taverns and going on the first adventure they get offered, even if extremely vague and barebones. I seriously doubt that if Yokyok was an elf or half-orc or human it wouldn't have worked the same.

I don't think it would have worked the same way if Yokyok had been human, because adventurers don't typically go on adventures like "Human Menace Threatens Local Halfling, 20gp per human head." Belkar would have had to come up with a different hook, like sketching a picture of Yokyok and claiming he was an assassin or necromancer or something.