Hybridizing subclasses: Psychic Rogue

[Segev]

Would replacing psychic blades from Soul Knife with Mage Hand Legerdemain from Arcane Trickster be breaking anything? Are the psi die abilities too good next to the bolstered Mage Hand?

Obviously, the level nine feature loses the psychic blade features. Maybe replace that with the Telekinetic Feat's non stat boost half (increase range to 60 feet; the pull/push feature), and make the psionic teleportation work without throwing a blade.

This loses the psychic blades and the arcane tricksters spellcasting, but I am unsure if the psi-bolstered knack is so much better than spellcasting in general that it is overpowered to give Mage Hand Legerdemain along side it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It seems like a downgrade, if anything. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Segev]

It seems like a downgrade, if anything. I wouldn't worry about it.
Do you say that because you view the Arcane Trickster as underpowered compared to the Soul Knife, because the spells are the greater portion of the Arcane Trickster's power, or for another reason?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do you say that because you view the Arcane Trickster as underpowered compared to the Soul Knife, because the spells are the greater portion of the Arcane Trickster's power, or for another reason?
I'd call the Arcane Trickster more powerful because of its spells. Mage Hand Legerdemain is nifty and can be useful in a fight, but mostly when fighting humanoids, and even then it can be a bit GM-dependent.

I'd be more inclined to swap out Psychic Whispers-- get the basic invisible hand cantrip all the time, one daily casting with the full Legerdemain benefits, and the ability to expend psi dice for additional castings with full benefits. Trading a strong psychic utility for a strong psychic utility strikes me as a better plan than trading the subclass' sole combat bonus for a utility-oriented ability.

[Dork_Forge]

Agree with Grod, this seems like a huge downgrade. It makes the subclass entirely utility focused with no real way to improve it's combat or give another way to Sneak, which is pretty rare if not unheard of in Rogue subclasses.

Persnoally I'd just play a Gith and get a version of Mage Hand that fits better in some ways (no components).

[Segev]

Part of why I question the spells being all that great is the fact that I am struggling to see them as synergizing all that well. The selection is shockingly limited in practice. For three first level spells, I'm looking at maybe sleep, silent image, and either find familiar or shield.

Admittedly, the build I am focusing on right now gets find familiar elsewhere and is a shadow monk, as well, so already has Darkness and Minor Illusion.

Psychic blades kind-of synergize, being monk weapons and giving a ranged bonus action attack option if you don't flurry. But they add less than to a straight rogue. Shield is more useful, perhaps, due to unarmored defense, than it otherwise might be.

I am thinking about this because I am torn between the utility of the mage hand and the skill boost of psi-bolstered knack, and find the psychic whispers to be superior to Message.

That the spells make up for the mage hand feature not really helping in combat is interesting: I am interested in suggestions for how to do that.

If the "psychic rogue" version of mage hand legerdemain also did away with components, would that change the considerations here?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If the character is a Gith of either type you get an invisible Mage Hand that doesn't use components. With that you may not even need Mage Hand Legerdemain.

I'll agree that Psychic Blades is too big of a feature to replace with Mage Hand Legerdemain. You need to get something more if you swap it out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Part of why I question the spells being all that great is the fact that I am struggling to see them as synergizing all that well. The selection is shockingly limited in practice. For three first level spells, I'm looking at maybe sleep, silent image, and either find familiar or shield.
The first (and most reliable) combat toy is Booming Blade, which not only represents its usual flat improvement on a single attack but also synergizes well with Cunning Action. Mage Armor has some potential if you're getting a familiar elsewhere (or don't want one) and don't expect to find much magic armor. It's the second level spells that do the most for your combat ability-- Shadow Blade, Blur, and even a single round of Hold Person can turn the tide of a battle.

The Arcane Trickster's casting isn't game-changing or anything, but to be fair none of the Rogue's subclasses do that much for combat power. (Maybe Phantom)


Admittedly, the build I am focusing on right now gets find familiar elsewhere and is a shadow monk, as well, so already has Darkness and Minor Illusion.
Having Find Familiar and Minor Illusion already does make the Arcane Trickster's casting a bit less exciting, to be sure.

[Segev]

If the character is a Gith of either type you get an invisible Mage Hand that doesn't use components. With that you may not even need Mage Hand Legerdemain.In this case, the character is already built to level 6: Rogue 1 / Monk 5. Eventually taking more Rogue, and I'm just dithering as I plan ahead. The big question regarding Mage Hand Legerdemain is whether the ability to pick pockets (or unpick them) and use thieves' tools at 30 ft. (or even 60 ft, with the Telekinetic feat) is crucial, or if mage hand can do enough on its own without the class feature.

In truth, I rarely find myself doing that kind of work anyway, so it may not be necessary for this character. Which just leaves questions like whether prestidigitation for conjuring tools and lighting fires, control flames for extinquishing them or doing cool creepy things with them, and whatever spells I pick out are better than telepathy out to a mile with the party and a fair number of still-bigger-number-boosts to skills.


I'll agree that Psychic Blades is too big of a feature to replace with Mage Hand Legerdemain. You need to get something more if you swap it out.I assume you're answering what I'm about to ask with "no," but want to be sure: if Mage Hand Legerdemain (psychic version to replace soul knives) came with no components, would that be enough extra? If not, I assume you're thinking it needs something more, still.


The first (and most reliable) combat toy is Booming Blade, which not only represents its usual flat improvement on a single attack but also synergizes well with Cunning Action. Mage Armor has some potential if you're getting a familiar elsewhere (or don't want one) and don't expect to find much magic armor. It's the second level spells that do the most for your combat ability-- Shadow Blade, Blur, and even a single round of Hold Person can turn the tide of a battle.On the one hand, shadow blade is a monk weapon. On the other, it actually...doesn't matter that it is, because most of the time all that matters with that is the monk damage die, and that'll always be less than 2d8. Well, it does mean you can use it and follow up with Martial Arts, I suppose.


The Arcane Trickster's casting isn't game-changing or anything, but to be fair none of the Rogue's subclasses do that much for combat power. (Maybe Phantom)

Having Find Familiar and Minor Illusion already does make the Arcane Trickster's casting a bit less exciting, to be sure.Yeah. Combat power wise, adding shield to a monk's kit can boost AC decently. (To 21, in my character's case.) I'm thinking sleep would be very good for dealing with guards when sneaking around civilized-ish areas. Guards aren't necessarily high hp, but are dangerous if you can't KO them all very fast due to the ability to raise alarms.

One cantrip I keel thinking, "I can see use for that," with is message, and there is a use case where it's even better than Psychic Whispers: this is a sailing-heavy campaign and we have our own ship; message can reach anybody on board. On the other hand, the primary use for magical communication would be at ranges that might be between ships, or the like, and the mile that Psychic Whispers gives is superior, there. It also can serve as a makeshift tongues, which is nice if I never plan to reach level 12 of Monk.

But the biggest attraction for Soul Knife over Arcane Trickster for this build is Psi-boosted Knack. An extra d8 (by level 5 of rogue) to important skill checks is definitely nice to have. (This is a grappler, too, so it's even more silly, there.)


I don't know that my DM would go for hybridizing the subclasses, and I could make either subclass viable as written. Both mechanically and flavor-wise, though mechanically Arcane Trickster is broadening capabilities while Soul Knife is focusing on my stealth and grappling with a side-order of scouting/perception.

That said, with the sentiment being that Mage Hand Legerdemain is actually an insufficient trade for Psychic Blades, how much more ability would be needed to bring it up to snuff? An extra cantrip? Some sort of ribbon? Or would it actually need to be something bigger still? Maybe Psychic Tools instead of Psychic Blades: when performing a check requiring / using tools with which you're proficient, the tools materialize out of shimmering psychic energy, enabling you to perform the check without tools on hand. (Coupled with Mage Hand Legerdemain, this would mean the telekinetic ability can essentially BE tools doing checks at a distance.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe the ability to wield a weapon with your mage hand? A bonus action spell attack for ~d6+Int, perhaps with the ability to add a psi die to the damage, would be a solid combat trick. Perhaps add the Telekinesis feat's bonus action shove to the mix.

[Segev]

Maybe the ability to wield a weapon with your mage hand? A bonus action spell attack for ~d6+Int, perhaps with the ability to add a psi die to the damage, would be a solid combat trick. Perhaps add the Telekinesis feat's bonus action shove to the mix.

I was going to question whether giving a melee weapon a thirty (or even 60, with the Telekinetic feat) foot range wouldn't be broken, but Cantrips and thrown weapons do that kind of damage already. Making it a spell attack arguably weakens it if it makes it use Intelligence instead of Strength or Dexterity. But bring a ranged bonus action attack is nifty.

What do you think of the mage hand forming into and/or serving as any any tools with which you are proficient as part of a use of those tools?

[Man_Over_Game]

Find a use for Mage Hand Legerdemain to be able to leverage for attacks and you'll fix most of the issues.

For example, you can make an attack with your Mage Hand as a bonus action, but it has Disadvantage to the Attack. If it hits, you add your Sneak Attack damage to the Attack.

This means that you can either stab someone with an invisible hand that leaves no trace, using your Action to Hide to nullify the Disadvantage, or you can attempt two Sneak Attacks in the same turn if you don't mind the low accuracy.

Since it uses your Sneak Attack damage, it already scales.


Sure, the Arcane Trickster can cast spells for utility, but DnD has always been a game where you can exchange utility and function for raw combat prowess, so it's not like this kind of trade is out of place.

[Segev]

Find a use for Mage Hand Legerdemain to be able to make attacks and you'll fix most of the issues.

For example, you can make an attack with your Mage Hand as a bonus action, but it has Disadvantage to the Attack. If it hits, you add your Sneak Attack damage to the Attack.

This means that you can either stab someone with an invisible hand that leaves no trace, using your Action to Hide to nullify the Disadvantage, or you can attempt two Sneak Attacks in the same turn if you don't mind the low accuracy.

Since it uses your Sneak Attack damage, it already scales.

I assume the bolded part is due to this replacing a combat feature (the psychic blade). As I try to analyze this further, what is the "combat application" of an Arcane Trickster's subclass features? I know at level 9 they get better at imposing saves if they're hiding, but that's not a level 3 feature. With spells, they could get a cantrip. I think they need to be level 7 before they could pick up shadow blade. Are the Blade cantrips really good enough to qualify as boosting their attack significantly?

[Man_Over_Game]

I assume the bolded part is due to this replacing a combat feature (the psychic blade). As I try to analyze this further, what is the "combat application" of an Arcane Trickster's subclass features? I know at level 9 they get better at imposing saves if they're hiding, but that's not a level 3 feature. With spells, they could get a cantrip. I think they need to be level 7 before they could pick up shadow blade. Are the Blade cantrips really good enough to qualify as boosting their attack significantly?

It's not about that, necessarily. The issue is that the soulknife's utility doesn't match up with the AT's, and then it loses its combat prowess with OP's change, but you don't need them to be the same, just equals.

This uses the same philosophy that Fighters and Bards are equals. Don't try to beat the AT in terms of utility, just match it's power level on the opposite side of the spectrum: make it a powerful combatant.

Otherwise, all we are looking to do is figure out how to make two AT subclasses while...trying not to make them identical? Seems silly to me.

Plus, it makes sense to me that the psychic version of a Rogue would be a better combatant than the spellcaster version. All Rogues deal their damage with weapons, after all.

[Segev]

It's not about that, necessarily. The issue is that the soulknife's utility doesn't match up with the AT's, and then it loses its combat prowess with OP's change, but you don't need them to be the same, just equals.

This uses the same philosophy that Fighters and Bards are equals. Don't try to beat the AT in terms of utility, just match it's power level on the opposite side of the spectrum: make it a powerful combatant.

Otherwise, all we are looking to do is figure out how to make two AT subclasses while...trying not to make them identical? Seems silly to me.

Plus, it makes sense to me that the psychic version of a Rogue would be a better combatant than the spellcaster version.

Hm. I think I see where you're coming from.

If we were to take it the other direction, and graft Psi-Bolstered Knack and Psychic Whispers onto Arcane Trickster, what would be fair to give up to make room for them? The emphasis there being on the utility of the AT but geared more towards improving scouting and skill mastery.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hm. I think I see where you're coming from.

If we were to take it the other direction, and graft Psi-Bolstered Knack and Psychic Whispers onto Arcane Trickster, what would be fair to give up to make room for them? The emphasis there being on the utility of the AT but geared more towards improving scouting and skill mastery.

Hmm...

Get rid of psychic dice, fuel those powers with spell slots, lose your Cantrips, and let the Rogue choose not to deal their Sneak Attack damage in order to get refunded the next Rogue Spell Slot they spend that they cast as a Bonus Action.

So each turn, you can either:

Attack with Sneak Attack, BA for Cunning Action.
Cast a spell, BA for Cunning Action.
Attack without Sneak Attack to gain a Rogue Spell Slot back, BA to Cast a Spell


The benefit here being that having those extra spell slots will always come in handy with Psychic Knack.

Personally, I like the idea of the AT using their hand to stab people (and, let's be honest, we all have thought of doing that with Mage Hand), but it's already pretty loaded as-is.

[Segev]

Hmm...

Get rid of psychic dice, fuel those powers with spell slots, lose your Cantrips, and let the Rogue choose not to deal their Sneak Attack damage in order to get refunded the next Rogue Spell Slot they spend that they cast as a Bonus Action.

So each turn, you can either:

Attack with Sneak Attack, BA for Cunning Action.
Cast a spell, BA for Cunning Action.
Attack without Sneak Attack to gain a Rogue Spell Slot back, BA to Cast a Spell


The benefit here being that having those extra spell slots will always come in handy with Psychic Knack.

Personally, I like the idea of the AT using their hand to stab people (and, let's be honest, we all have thought of doing that with Mage Hand), but it's already pretty loaded as-is.

Hm. First level spell slot gives a d6 for Psi-Bolstered Knack, 2nd level gives d8, 3rd a d10, and 4th a d12?

I'm not sure about being able to recover expended spell slots that easily. That seems very powerful, even if the DM strictly limits ability to attack outside of real combat to do so.

Psychic Whispers is almost just a flat-better version of message, so by itself is probably worth two cantrips known, at a minimum. For the replacement of dice with spell slots, probably would have the psychic whispers last a number of hours equal to the level of the spell slot expended.


Really, I'm being greedy, here, wanting both Mage Hand Legerdemain and the non-psyblade features of soul knife for a particular character. It also occurred to me as I was thinking about it how mage hand legerdemain could be a specialized telekinesis and fit in with "psychic rogue" as a concept. In practice, I'll probably wind up picking one or the other canon subclass; the DM has already been more than generous with things with this build so asking for a hybridized one seems to be ungrateful. But it still is a mental exercise I want to examine, and I greatly appreciate the discussion and ideas.

The idea of wielding a weapon with the mage hand remains intriguing, though almost feels like it's more ribbon than actual feature when I ask myself what it really does that couldn't already be done with a thrown weapon (which Mage Hand Legerdemain would permit you to retrieve fairly easily). I guess it adds a bonus action attack at range, and it's the bonus action aspect that's the kicker, and keeps up thus with the psychic blade's off-hand attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hm. First level spell slot gives a d6 for Psi-Bolstered Knack, 2nd level gives d8, 3rd a d10, and 4th a d12?

I'm not sure about being able to recover expended spell slots that easily. That seems very powerful, even if the DM strictly limits ability to attack outside of real combat to do so.

Psychic Whispers is almost just a flat-better version of message, so by itself is probably worth two cantrips known, at a minimum. For the replacement of dice with spell slots, probably would have the psychic whispers last a number of hours equal to the level of the spell slot expended.


Really, I'm being greedy, here, wanting both Mage Hand Legerdemain and the non-psyblade features of soul knife for a particular character. It also occurred to me as I was thinking about it how mage hand legerdemain could be a specialized telekinesis and fit in with "psychic rogue" as a concept. In practice, I'll probably wind up picking one or the other canon subclass; the DM has already been more than generous with things with this build so asking for a hybridized one seems to be ungrateful. But it still is a mental exercise I want to examine, and I greatly appreciate the discussion and ideas.

The idea of wielding a weapon with the mage hand remains intriguing, though almost feels like it's more ribbon than actual feature when I ask myself what it really does that couldn't already be done with a thrown weapon (which Mage Hand Legerdemain would permit you to retrieve fairly easily). I guess it adds a bonus action attack at range, and it's the bonus action aspect that's the kicker, and keeps up thus with the psychic blade's off-hand attack.


Could always go the opposite route. Tack on a bunch of utility powers, get rid of spell slots, fuel everything with limited Psychic Dice, keep the BA attack thingy.

It can do a lot of things, but can only do a few of them each day.

[Segev]

Could always go the opposite route. Tack on a bunch of utility powers, get rid of spell slots, fuel everything with limited Psychic Dice, keep the BA attack thingy.

It can do a lot of things, but can only do a few of them each day.

The number of psychic dice is actually pretty respectable. 1+[2x proficiency] at a minimum, plus one more every short rest.

Tacking on utility powers fueled by psychic dice ... hrm.

Sixth Sense
As a nonaction, you can spend and roll a psychic die even when it's not your turn to gain Blindsight out to ten feet times the number rolled on the die until the start of your next turn (or for six seconds, outside of combat). You can do this in response to an attack or a creature doing something that would provoke an OA, before the actions resolve and in time to take appropriate reactions.

This might actually be too powerful, but fits the "combat trick" as well as being a utility power.

Could just give prestidigitation, or some other utility cantrip.

Or add 5x the number rolled on an expended psychic die to the feet that can be moved during a dash action. Or the number rolled on the die to his Strength for determining how far he can jump (though that is sort-of covered in psi-bolstered knack if the DM has any idea how to translate Athletics checks to determining how much further you can jump).

I keep coming back to the notion of using prestidigitation to conjure thieves' tools, or adding "can serve as any tool you're proficient with" to psychic blades in some way. But the latter implies having psychic blades, which is specifically the thing I am least interested in out of soul knife. And in truth, being without tools is rare and niche enough that this would likely be a ribbon.