Another realization about the RAW of Psychic Blades

[Segev]

I was going to add this to this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631165-I-wish-WotC-would-errata-the-Soulknife-(Rant)), but it is a fortnight old, so I thought I would avoid necromancy and start a new topic.

While there is a lot to be desired from how Psychic Blades are handled, it is undeniable that you only have one in-hand at a time. You could use the Duelist fighting style with them, even when using the bonus action extra attack, because the psychic blade only exists during the attack. So you always only have a weapon in one hand.

[stoutstien]

Aye. It definitely has some corner case perks that be worked with.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So let's say you've got a Soulknife 3/ Fighter X, using a shield with the psychic blade. Dueling style adds +2 damage to it, and you can also get Thrown Weapon Fighting to add another +2 damage if you throw it. So you're at 1d6+4+Dex, plus sneak attack if applicable. (Crawford says those can be combined as long as it's a melee weapon with the thrown property. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/743317924459360257?s=19))

You're holding a shield, but you get one free item interaction per turn. So use your action to attack with the psychic blade, use your item interaction to move your shield to that hand, and you can do the bonus action attack with your other hand as well.

Guess I'll add that to the list of things I want to play.

[Dork_Forge]

So let's say you've got a Soulknife 3/ Fighter X, using a shield with the psychic blade. Dueling style adds +2 damage to it, and you can also get Thrown Weapon Fighting to add another +2 damage if you throw it. So you're at 1d6+4+Dex, plus sneak attack if applicable. (Crawford says those can be combined as long as it's a melee weapon with the thrown property. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/743317924459360257?s=19))

You're holding a shield, but you get one free item interaction per turn. So use your action to attack with the psychic blade, use your item interaction to move your shield to that hand, and you can do the bonus action attack with your other hand as well.

Guess I'll add that to the list of things I want to play.

It's an action to don/doff a shield, and that's basically what you're doing here.


OP: I played a Soulknife that got the +2 from Thrown Weapon, it added a nice damage bump (and if I had been high enough I'd have stacked Dueling on top).

[Segev]

It's an action to don/doff a shield, and that's basically what you're doing here.


OP: I played a Soulknife that got the +2 from Thrown Weapon, it added a nice damage bump (and if I had been high enough I'd have stacked Dueling on top).

If you can finagle a third fighting style, Archery for +2 to hit, with duelist and thrown for net +4 to damage, could be pretty nuts.

You'd want a minimum of rogue 3, fighter 1, and either paladin 1 or Ranger 2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

While the PHB does say it takes 1 action to don or doff a shield, you're not changing how you benefit from its bonus to your AC, which is the defining metric for doing those actions. You're not donning or doffing the shield, you're simply shifting which hand is holding it. All shields grant the same AC bonus, whether it's a tiny buckler held in your hand, or a huge kite shield strapped to your arm. If you're using one of the former, it's fairly simple to switch it to your other hand.


If you can finagle a third fighting style, Archery for +2 to hit, with duelist and thrown for net +4 to damage, could be pretty nuts.

You'd want a minimum of rogue 3, fighter 1, and either paladin 1 or Ranger 2.

Nah, Fighter gets enough feats that you can pick up Fighting Initiate a few times.

[Dork_Forge]

If you can finagle a third fighting style, Archery for +2 to hit, with duelist and thrown for net +4 to damage, could be pretty nuts.

You'd want a minimum of rogue 3, fighter 1, and either paladin 1 or Ranger 2.

I don't think adding damage to the net works, since the net has no inherent damage roll to enhance (either with a style or Sneak Attack).


While the PHB does say it takes 1 action to don or doff a shield, you're not changing how you benefit from its bonus to your AC, which is the defining metric for doing those actions. You're not donning or doffing the shield, you're simply shifting which hand is holding it. All shields grant the same AC bonus, whether it's a tiny buckler held in your hand, or a huge kite shield strapped to your arm. If you're using one of the former, it's fairly simple to switch it to your other hand.

It doesn't matter whether or not you end up in a different place, you are removing it from one arm (doffing) and moving it to the other (donning) and you are doing so to gain a mechanical benefit from manipulating open hand rules. The rules don't support this and since it's purely exploitive rather than thematic I don't see there being a strong case for a ruling either, of course ymmv.


Nah, Fighter gets enough feats that you can pick up Fighting Initiate a few times.

You can only take a feat once unless that feat says you may take it multiple times, Fighting Initiate does not allow you to take it multiple times.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't matter whether or not you end up in a different place, you are removing it from one arm (doffing) and moving it to the other (donning) and you are doing so to gain a mechanical benefit from manipulating open hand rules. The rules don't support this and since it's purely exploitive rather than thematic I don't see there being a strong case for a ruling either, of course ymmv.

Don. This is the time it takes to put on the item. You benefit from it's AC only if you take the full time to don it.

Doff. This is the time it takes to take off the item. If you have help removing armor, reduce this time by half.

RAW, you didn't go from not benefitting from its AC bonus to benefitting from its AC bonus, so you didn't don it. RAW, you didn't go from benefitting from its AC bonus to not benefitting from its AC bonus, so you didn't doff it. You still have it equipped throughout the turn. The effort to don a shield would include retrieving it from your back or picking it up or similar, and the effort to doff a shield would be to stow it on your back or drop it in a way that you don't trip on it or similar. None of that additional effort applies in this case, so it's reasonable to treat it as interacting with an object.


As for the build, something like Soulknife 3 or 4/ Gloom Stalker 3 or 4/ Fighter should work. First turn you'll cast Hunter's Mark and use Action Surge to make two attack actions, both of which benefits from Gloom Stalker's dread ambusher feature.

[Segev]

I don't think adding damage to the net works, since the net has no inherent damage roll to enhance (either with a style or Sneak Attack).

:smallbiggrin: Nice wordplay.

I was using it in the "net vs. gross" sense, not in the sense of "net as weapon." I meant your damage is going up by 4 per hit with a thrown one-handed weapon.


I think switching hands on your shield is very firmly in DM ruling territory, since it's clearly not an intended behavior.

[Dork_Forge]

Don. This is the time it takes to put on the item. You benefit from it's AC only if you take the full time to don it.

Doff. This is the time it takes to take off the item. If you have help removing armor, reduce this time by half.

RAW, you didn't go from not benefitting from its AC bonus to benefitting from its AC bonus, so you didn't don it. RAW, you didn't go from benefitting from its AC bonus to not benefitting from its AC bonus, so you didn't doff it. You still have it equipped throughout the turn. The effort to don a shield would include retrieving it from your back or picking it up or similar, and the effort to doff a shield would be to stow it on your back or drop it in a way that you don't trip on it or similar. None of that additional effort applies in this case, so it's reasonable to treat it as interacting with an object.

They are separate sentences, it isn't defining don by whether or not you gain a benefit, it's adding that if you don't fully don something you don't get a benefit from it. If you are moving a shield from one arm to the other, in between you are not wearing it. If you want a justification for why it takes so much to move a shield outside of 'stopping gaming the system' here: there's one general type of shield in 5e and they all involve strapping to your person.


As for the build, something like Soulknife 3 or 4/ Gloom Stalker 3 or 4/ Fighter should work. First turn you'll cast Hunter's Mark and use Action Surge to make two attack actions, both of which benefits from Gloom Stalker's dread ambusher feature.


This would work, but at that point why be a Soulknife to begin with?