Bard: when do you let go of Dissonant Whispers (at what level)

[KorvinStarmast]

One of the ongoing challenges for a "spells known" style caster is phasing out old spells as new spells at higher levels become available. While the high level spells are neat, new and wonderful, the PC still has 4 level 1 spell slots and 3 level 2 spell slots. (Lore Bard 11, looking at various things to do at level 12 providing we get there).

I still have Blindness/Deafness for my second level slots. (non concentration). At first level I have Dissonant Whispers, Feather Fall(a must since we seem to be riding around on Griffons and such these days, and I may get a chance to ride a summoned dragon if the UA spell discussion I am having with the DM ends with a yes) Healing Word.
I have 15 Spells known at level 11, and will have 15 spells known at level 12. :smallfurious: (None of the magical secrets are bard spells)

Dissonant Whispers works on most creatures, is first level, and can get an annoying enemy out of the way and offer an OA for an ally.

When do you usually let it go, or do you keep it forever?

[Theodoxus]

Honestly, I've never taken it on a Bard. I don't take Vicious Mockery either though. If I'm trying to deal HP damage in a fight, I consider that a loss, personally. But then, I play my Bards like I play my Clerics - as close to 100% team support as I can.

That said, if you're seeing you're still using DW most days, I'd keep it. It does provide the potential for useful tactics and control. But there are definitely more useful spells on the Bard list you can swap it out for - and if you've picked up some other blasts from Magical Secrets, DW begins to get long in the tooth.

I guess the specific question back, is, are there other spells you're looking at replacing DW with? It might be easier to discuss the pros/cons of keeping it WRT what you're thinking of replacing it with.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Only keep it forever if you've got a melee Rogue who can use that OA to sneak attack. It's not at the level of forever-useful that Shield or Absorb Elements celebrates, and its utility isn't as good as Command. While it's still got useful enough utility that it will remain a viable use of an action and 1st level slot at every tier of play, it's probably not good enough to keep unless it has amazing synergy with another party member's abilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly, I've never taken it on a Bard. I don't take Vicious Mockery either though. If I'm trying to deal HP damage in a fight, I consider that a loss, personally. But then, I play my Bards like I play my Clerics - as close to 100% team support as I can.
My bard is a support bard: my whole job is 'make the others better' and DW does that a bit at low levels. They are freed from an attacker and get a shot at them as they run off, the damage is a nominal benefit, at best. Part of my problem is that most of my spells have concentration, so I need some that aren't conc also.
But there are definitely more useful spells on the Bard list you can swap it out for - and if you've picked up some other blasts from Magical Secrets, DW begins to get long in the tooth.
Conjure animals, Counterspell, Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand. Nope, no blasts. (Counterspell is, quite frankly, awesome). Our sorcerer/warlock is Master Blaster. I support him.


I guess the specific question back, is, are there other spells you're looking at replacing DW with? It might be easier to discuss the pros/cons of keeping it WRT what you're thinking of replacing it with. Well, the sixth level list is amazing, and there are some 5th level spells like Scrying that are, for campaign reasons, very appealing.

[Dork_Forge]

I think it holds its own at all levels to be honest, unless there's a spell that you've been burning to grab I'd hold onto it. At the very least it can buy you some time whilst the monster closes on you again.

The Bard in my game used it against a Dragon to great effect, proccing OAs from the Barbarian/Rogue, Paladin and every one of their Animated coins.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it holds its own at all levels to be honest, unless there's a spell that you've been burning to grab I'd hold onto it. At the very least it can buy you some time whilst the monster closes on you again.
yeah, when I do use it the situation usually is helped. And it has the chance to be a spell I cast that causes a legendary save to go off. A gamble, but a gamble with a low level slot.

The Bard in my game used it against a Dragon to great effect, proccing OAs from the Barbarian/Rogue, Paladin and every one of their Animated coins. Hmm, neat thought.
Of course, if the Dragon runs off during that round, that distance gives it a nice chance to breath on us without getting any closer when its turn comes up. :smalleek:

[Dork_Forge]

y
Of course, if the Dragon runs off during that round, that distance gives it a nice chance to breath on us without getting any closer when its turn comes up. :smalleek:

Pfft yeah right, I'm not that lucky on breath recharge rolls :smallconfused:

[Bobthewizard]

Of course, if the Dragon runs off during that round, that distance gives it a nice chance to breath on us without getting any closer when its turn comes up. :smalleek:

This is why I like Command better than Dissonant Whispers at higher levels. If you tell them to "flee!" they still take the AOO, but then move and dash away with their action, so they have to dash back to get to you the next round. You lose the damage, but take them out for 2 rounds of actions instead of none.

It's also more flexible by using different commands and can upcast to target more enemies.

[Merudo]

With Tasha out, I would eventually replace Dissonant Whispers with Command, as the later upcasts much better.

I always keep either Dissonant Whispers or Command as a Bard - both are amazing at causing opportunity attacks and forced movement, and they do not require concentration.

They are also my preferred choices for the Fey Touched feat.

[KorvinStarmast]

With Tasha out, I would eventually replace Dissonant Whispers with Command, as the later upcasts much better.

I always keep either Dissonant Whispers or Command as a Bard - both are amazing at causing opportunity attacks and forced movement, and they do not require concentration.

They are also my preferred choices for the Fey Touched feat. Yeah. I have my eye on that feat.

[borg286]

I want to point out the synergy with Warcaster and booming blade. When you calculate the extra damage from a sneak attack and compare it with the extra damage from booming blade it is a wash. That is pretty good for something that took you a feat, cantrips, and just leveling in whatever class. If a caster ally gets into melee and has warcaster, nudge them towards Booming blade and you can count that extra DPR towards Dissonant whispers

[LudicSavant]

One of the ongoing challenges for a "spells known" style caster is phasing out old spells as new spells at higher levels become available. While the high level spells are neat, new and wonderful, the PC still has 4 level 1 spell slots and 3 level 2 spell slots. (Lore Bard 11, looking at various things to do at level 12 providing we get there).

I still have Blindness/Deafness for my second level slots. (non concentration). At first level I have Dissonant Whispers, Feather Fall(a must since we seem to be riding around on Griffons and such these days, and I may get a chance to ride a summoned dragon if the UA spell discussion I am having with the DM ends with a yes) Healing Word.
I have 15 Spells known at level 11, and will have 15 spells known at level 12. :smallfurious: (None of the magical secrets are bard spells)

Dissonant Whispers works on most creatures, is first level, and can get an annoying enemy out of the way and offer an OA for an ally.

When do you usually let it go, or do you keep it forever?

It's very composition-dependent. Dissonant Whispers can stay relevant forever if you have strong opportunity attackers on your team (example: melee Rogues, Warcasters, etc).

With the Tasha's expanded spell list variant, you can take Command instead, since it's more versatile (upcasting, variety of commands, etc) and the Flee option eats your enemy's movement and Action, instead of their Reaction. The damage loss isn't much, but it does have a limitation (it requires the enemy to understand your language, and not be undead).

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I think it's always good.




The Bard in my game used it against a Dragon to great effect, proccing OAs from the Barbarian/Rogue, Paladin and every one of their Animated coins.

I did this at level one in icespire peak. Rogue, Paladin, and raging Barbarian got oppurtunity attacks at advantage. Barbarian and Paldin Got crits. iirc it was like 67 Damage in that first round of combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

@th3g0dc0mp13x

I agonized a bit in terms of "What do I drop?" and it was Tasha's Hideous Laughter that lost out and Dissonant Whispers that stayed. (The concentration issued being the deciding factor)

Tasha's has a lot of great utility, though it's only good for incapacitating until the damage starts to come along. (I have used it to eat legendary saves a few times, as it works out, but I only understand that since the DM told me so). We have two pretty good melee fighters (A blade lock and a paladin) and making monsters move appeals to me. Sometimes, that helps one of our melee fighters get out of a sticky spot, though lately that's not been an issue.

[Shyvralynn]

Well, the sixth level list is amazing, and there are some 5th level spells like Scrying that are, for campaign reasons, very appealing.

I'm not looking forward to 6th level spells much. Mass Suggestion and maybe Hero's Feast? Otto's is decent. What catches your eye?

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not looking forward to 6th level spells much. Mass Suggestion and maybe Hero's Feast? Otto's is decent. What catches your eye?
All three of those I like a lot, but I picked True Seeing due to campaign reasons. And I am the only arcane caster with level 6 spells. The others multiclassed. :smallyuk:

[Chronos]

It definitely depends on your party. My bard is in a party with three front-liners, so a successful DW means three opportunity attacks. Now, granted, one of those three is my bard himself, and he's only contributing 1d4+4 with his (he usually uses his attacks for grappling, not damage), but the other two are a hexblade and a barbarian, who can both get some pretty significant damage per attack (not as much as a rogue, but still a lot). If I could replace it with Command, I probably would (concentration hasn't been a huge deal for me, it hurts the enemy action economy more, and it's more versatile), but we aren't using Tasha's, or whatever book it was that added Command to the bard list, and I'm probably going to have better choices for my Magical Secrets.

[Willie the Duck]

They are also my preferred choices for the Fey Touched feat.

Yeah. I have my eye on that feat.

I feel like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched are almost custom-made for bards, sorcerers, rangers and warlocks of players who struggle with too many spell-known options. I've been asked to join an 8th level campaign and am seriously considering a hexblood swords bard with both those feats just to pick up Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Hex, Invisibility, Misty Step, and Silent Image before tapping into the bard spells known numbers.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched are almost custom-made for bards, sorcerers, rangers and warlocks of players who struggle with too many spell-known options. I've been asked to join an 8th level campaign and am seriously considering a hexblood swords bard with both those feats just to pick up Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Hex, Invisibility, Misty Step, and Silent Image before tapping into the bard spells known numbers. After my usual bout of agonizing when we hit level 12, I went with the Warcaster feat since so many of my spells (slow, hypnotic pattern, Dominate person, Hold Monster, conjure animals (still useful!)) are concentration spells that help the party.
Your point on how those feats expand one's spell inventory is well made. (Sadly for me, the DM is not a fan of vHuman so I didn't get a feat at level 1, which would have been a good spot to place one of those two).

At level 13 (7th level spells) I'll probably add Crown of Stars - it's not concentration.
Will drop Raise Dead and pick up Resurrection.

It's also more flexible by using different commands and can upcast to target more enemies. One thing I don't need is to burn higher level spell slots. They are all well spoken for (though of late I've used a lot of them for Counterspell since we've run into a rash of enemy casters ...)

But a bump up to second level (two fleeing enemies) is a decent use of a spell slot.