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View Full Version : Lamordia then and now, Reflections on Ravenloft changes



Pixel_Kitsune
2021-05-30, 04:46 PM
So in another thread someone pointed out that they felt changing the Darklord of Lamordia from a man to a woman impacted the meaning and emphasis of the story. I thought I'd try to lay out Shelley's original work intent, the 2e Victor Mordenheim and the 5e Viktra Modenheim.

Mary Shelley's original work: I won't spend a ton of time here. There are essays abound and more remakes than I could even name. But the original tale of a scientist bringing life from death, a creature not automatically evil but slowly pushed by people's unwillingness to accept and the Dr's drive to complete his experiments regardless of rather or not he should are the focus. More specifically I've seen it said that the primary focus is that Curiosity and Ambition must be tempered by Caution and Compassion.

As an aside some have put these on gender lines. That it is the Male Curiosity and Ambition of Frankenstein without the calming influence of a woman's caution and compassion that leads to the creature being created. I would only say that while such ideas were common once upon a time, the idea that these are gender lines is a societal matter. Nothing stops men from being Compassionate or Cautious, nothing stops women from being ambitious and curious.

2e Lamordian DarkLords: The Darklord of Lamordia in this telling is a twisted take on Frankenstein's monster, not Frankenstein.
Adam is a Chaotic Evil Flesh Golem who despite sharing a curse with his creator, is the true Darklord and power of Lamordia. Adam became increasingly cruel as he experienced life, ultimately attracting the Dark Powers when he killed Victor's wife Elise and kidnapped their daughter, Eva. Victor remains alive, not because Adam has any hidden layers, but because they are tied. Adam experiences Victor's pain and so will not strike at his hated father.
Victor is a slightly more sympathetic take of Shelley's Frankenstein. He shares the obsession with creating life, but he also cared for his family. The night his daughter was taken he discovered Elise was not quite dead and so began taking drastic measures attempting to save her life. He has since then been seen as a madman by the populace who otherwise avoid him. Since the start he has never managed to achieve what he did with Adam and he has been unable to save Elise. His failure drives him on. The truth is he will never save her but does not know it.

5e Lamordia: Viktra takes more of a page from what we expect of mad scientists, she was cold, aloof and distant fairly early on, obsessed with not just creating life but reversing death. This lead to a relationship with Elise, one of the grave robbers she employed. Eventually Elise became ill with something doctors and Viktra could not find a cure for and in desperation she pushed her science to the limit, experimenting and torturing living creatures as well as corpses and eventually creating the unbreakable heart and transplanting it to Elise, saving her life. As justice came for her, and people broke in, swearing she'd pay for her murders Viktra saw Elise rising, her chest glowing, but passed out. She awoke in Lamordia the Domain, where the people celebrated her as a genius and visionary. She doesn't understand them or why they won't leave her alone to her work. She hears rumor and story of a glowing woman in the icy north, but is never able to find the source when she tries to track it down.

So how do these two stories contrast and compare to the Mary Shelley story they come from?

2e's Lamordia is a stereotypical mad scientist story. He is a villain out of negligence. He made Adam without true purpose other than his ambition and it cost him his family. He becomes a somewhat sympathetic character alah Mr. Freeze of Batman fame. He just wants to save his wife. But the Darklord itself? Is a generic monster. Adam is cruel, monstrous, has no motivations other than power and strength. There's very little to him despite HIM being the darklord that must be overcome, not Victor.

5e's Lamordia is almost an opposite. We see a woman who cared, but only about things in her direct circles. She had a purpose for her experimentations, she wanted to further medicine and human life. Her worst crimes came when she was in the depths of her efforts to save Elise. She is a much more understandable figure as most of us have considered doing something wrong for the benefit of someone we care about. Even her current situation bears some more sympathy, she's trying to find her missing Elise, she's trying to live up to what she KNOWS she's done in the past. But ultimately fails. I feel like she's an example of a new kind of Dark Lord where MAYBE they're not quite as evil as we see them and maybe the DarkPowers don't have a twisted benevolence as we thought.

In some ways this makes Ravenloft potentially less frightening, if the Dark Lord isn't always a pure villain maybe you can work with them. But I also feel it allows a more compelling story in the hands of the right DM. Which would you rather play in? A game that involves hunting down a monstrous flesh golem and taking him out in physical combat, meanwhile there's this side story you can almost ignore unless you want to hurt a sad old man in order to get an edge on Adam.. Or would you rather play a game where the "villain" turns out to be far more redeemable and potentially beneficial to society than thought. Where the story to open the borders and save the land might involve finding a scared and lost woman and helping her cope with what she's become, or reunite with someone she loves if that's her wish?

Unoriginal
2021-05-30, 05:12 PM
Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is about a brillant but extremely, horribly selfish person who has a child while in college and then absolutely and repeatedly refuse to take responsibility for anything, while the child grows to be resentful, as the only meaning they can find to their life is to plague their parent.


So both 2e and 5e would miss the point of the story pretty hard, if their goal was to emulate it. But I think they were just inspired by it (or its pop-culture impact, rather) without actually desiring to use the novels' theme.


Regardless, I think that for the "they felt changing the Darklord of Lamordia from a man to a woman impacted the meaning and emphasis of the story" point, I don't think it is true. There's nothing about Victor that would change if he was a woman, and nothing about Viktra that would change if she was a man.

Grod_The_Giant
2021-05-30, 05:15 PM
I feel like she's an example of a new kind of Dark Lord where MAYBE they're not quite as evil as we see them ...In some ways this makes Ravenloft potentially less frightening, if the Dark Lord isn't always a pure villain maybe you can work with them.
I haven't read much Ravenloft material, but I think there's a subtlety here you're missing. Just because you can understand her motivations doesn't mean that character like Viktra can't be a monstrous evil. It just means tapping a different primal fear.

Depending on how you present him, a character like Adam can play into the fear of alien-- the Lovecraftian "there are things that are utterly divorced from humanity, and all our struggles are as nothing to them"-- or he can be seen as an agent of cruel fate, a world that grinds humans to dust by its very nature. He's the villain who slaughters a town and continues on his way without so much as a backward glance.

But someone like Viktra? Someone where you know her story? Her style of horror is "there, but for the grace of god, go I". When the players look at her, they should see the litany of rationalizations and little steps along the highway to Hell that have led her to this point. She's the villain who stands in the abattoir, soaked with gore and surrounded by the vivisected bodies of children, and says "I did it for love."

Pixel_Kitsune
2021-05-30, 05:49 PM
So both 2e and 5e would miss the point of the story pretty hard, if their goal was to emulate it. But I think they were just inspired by it (or its pop-culture impact, rather) without actually desiring to use the novels' theme.


Regardless, I think that for the "they felt changing the Darklord of Lamordia from a man to a woman impacted the meaning and emphasis of the story" point, I don't think it is true. There's nothing about Victor that would change if he was a woman, and nothing about Viktra that would change if she was a man.

I'd say that's fair, I was speaking more in the pure Laconic moral vs all the nuance and detail, so definately fair to point out the original has a lot more and that these are both clearly taking the cliff notes.

I also agree that the gender really doesn't matter. I mention it only in the sense that I've seen people argue it was a change that somehow hurt things or that the original was all about gender roles in raising a child.


I haven't read much Ravenloft material, but I think there's a subtlety here you're missing. Just because you can understand her motivations doesn't mean that character like Viktra can't be a monstrous evil. It just means tapping a different primal fear.

Only quoted your first paragraph for space, but I agree with your whole statement. I don't think my initial comments are how you HAVE to play it, but that you can play it that way. That was always one of my biggest issues with earleir Ravenloft is that there's no real depth to the villains IMO, they're all "Evil" with no real question or compunction.

To go to your point, the players being able to see that string of rationalizations and missteps could help them see parallels in themselves to avoid. Or it could lead them to thinking they understand her more.

Thank you both for your feedback, was my hope to just generate discussion on the topics vs any specific "right" way to approach that and I think we're succeeding. :)

Unoriginal
2021-05-30, 05:56 PM
Also worth noting that Viktra's personal, tailor-made torment is/includes having people consider her an helpful hero and annoying her with that.

That tell us a lot about her mindset, I think.

Dr.Samurai
2021-12-02, 07:46 AM
In some ways this makes Ravenloft potentially less frightening, if the Dark Lord isn't always a pure villain maybe you can work with them. But I also feel it allows a more compelling story in the hands of the right DM. Which would you rather play in? A game that involves hunting down a monstrous flesh golem and taking him out in physical combat, meanwhile there's this side story you can almost ignore unless you want to hurt a sad old man in order to get an edge on Adam.. Or would you rather play a game where the "villain" turns out to be far more redeemable and potentially beneficial to society than thought. Where the story to open the borders and save the land might involve finding a scared and lost woman and helping her cope with what she's become, or reunite with someone she loves if that's her wish?
Definitely the former.

Tragic and redeemable villains are great, but I don't think D&D is the best medium for them unless you're building them up over time. I also feel like Viktra doesn't even sound like a villain from the description; so she tried to save someone's life through mad science? That makes her a dark lord? I'm guessing there is more to the story.

But I think it takes a good DM to input all the elements to make a villain tragic and redeemable without making the villain the center of attention/DMPC. The "villain" and the heroes end up occupying closer space together.

Waterdeep Merch
2021-12-03, 02:02 PM
The new version annoys me from a world building perspective on the Domains of Dread, but the old one, while more cosmologically appropriate, was also too dull and uninteresting- I never used it in the old days, and I have no intentions of using either form today either.

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was one of my favorite books as a kid. One thing I've always been annoyed by is pop culture's typical treatment of the Creature as a generic zombie-like super monster. Old Ravenloft absolutely adhered to that with Adam, while Victor's story was completely ancillary to it (and thus purely an accessory to Adam from an adventuring standpoint). Meanwhile, new Ravenloft didn't focus enough on Viktra's sins for my tastes, and didn't do... well, anything with Elise. Seriously, I read back and forth over those pages, wondering where they hid the passages about Elise's personality, motives, anything that could explain what she's doing, how she behaves, why she's doing them, etc. Am I supposed to assume it lines up with Frankenstein? Because that can't be true, the Creature's problems stemmed from Frankenstein's unwillingness to have anything to do with him, the complete opposite of Elise and Viktra. This hurts, because there's little compelling reason to be in Lamordia and interact with these two as-written. The only thing Viktra would want from adventurers is to find Elise, and Elise's reasons for avoiding Viktra are wholly undescribed.

I could come up with reasons myself, certainly. But if I'm going to do that, I'll probably rewrite both of them to be more dynamic and work within the horror principles of Ravenloft better. For example, perhaps "Elise" isn't the woman Viktra knew, but a wholly new person, something that Viktra just could not accept after the lengths she went to. Add in some psychotic attempts at domination and mind control, and you've got an interesting twist on the old Frankenstein formula: rather than pulling back in disgust at what her attempts to play god wrought, Viktra decides to double down on it and become even more obsessed with controlling those around her. Change Lamordia into more of a nightmare state of extreme paranoia where Viktra habitually abducts people in the interest of a very selfish view of advancing society. Then have Elise, this apparent 'monster' not trusted by anyone, as a kind of sympathetic hero against seemingly insurmountable odds. Play up the idea that Elise's true "unbreakable heart" is her spirit, which despite all odds has not yet fallen to the darkness surrounding her.