Star Trek: First Contact — Phoenix & Lily

[Palanan]

Just watched First Contact again, which is my favorite of the TNG movies—an admittedly low bar, but unlike the others it doesn’t feel quite as much like a slightly longer TV episode.

This time around two questions occurred, which the movie never quite explains:

First, how did the Phoenix land after its first warp flight? The movie glosses right over that, and given that it was a converted ICBM, I don’t think a soft landing was part of the original design. Did the capsule detach and come down via parachute in the Montana woods? We know it survived to be exhibited in the Smithsonian, but not its condition. Was this ever addressed?

And second, who exactly is Lily? The movie never quite specifies her role. She’s clearly personally attached to Cochrane and fully committed to his project, but in what capacity? She scrounged titanium for the cockpit, and she defends the installation as best she can, but she doesn't seem to have any role to play in the actual launch or flight testing.

As for her relationship with Cochrane, they don’t seem to be involved as more than colleagues, and while she’s young enough to be his daughter, that doesn’t seem likely either. Do we know anything more about her than what’s presented in the theatrical version?

[Cikomyr2]

The Phoenix landed because HEY LOOK AT THE VULCANS

And my understanding was that Lily was more the project manager/engineer administrator in charge of logistics and coordination, while Zephy was more the crazy theoretical scientist who kind of muddled through to his project.

[Dire_Flumph]

The art people usually have to put more thought into this than the writers and a possible re-entry system was envisioned by artist John Eaves. It's in his "Art of Star Trek" Book. I can't find his sketches online, but you can glimpse it here (https://youtu.be/a0pem11oEqs?t=85) at 1:25, just without a lot of detail. But the Phoenix was supposed to soft-land with a soft re-entry trajectory/parachute system.

About Lily, my memory is hazy, but I remember reading an interview at the time the movie came out with one of the story people who initially wrote Cochrane as a woman because they didn't know he had actually appeared in a TOS episode until they were corrected later. I always assumed their original Cochrane was turned into Lily, but I can't find corroboration and it seems like a bit of a stretch.

In the film my assumption was she was instrumental in design and construction, and was supposed to co-pilot, but when she was sent to the Enterprise for treatment that's when Riker and LaForge replaced her. I agree even a quick "I wish Lily was here, she really helped me _____" would have been an improvement.

[Saintheart]

The art people usually have to put more thought into this than the writers and a possible re-entry system was envisioned by artist John Eaves. It's in his "Art of Star Trek" Book. I can't find his sketches online, but you can glimpse it here (https://youtu.be/a0pem11oEqs?t=85) at 1:25, just without a lot of detail. But the Phoenix was supposed to soft-land with a soft re-entry trajectory/parachute system.

Over here I think:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/F6UZE.png

https://i.stack.imgur.com/u4Fpg.jpg

The fanmade history seems to suggest that Cochrane detached the nose cone section similar to the Apollo series' re-entry capsules, leaving the Phoenix's warp drive in orbit. They were later recovered and went into the Smithsonian, along with the parts of the fuselage detached when the warp nacelle first deployed, where the ship was reassembled and put on display. This made it possible for Picard to live out his boyhood dream of being able to touch the Phoenix with his own hands, something he'd never been able to do as a child in the 24th century.

[Dire_Flumph]

The fanmade history seems to suggest that Cochrane detached the nose cone section similar to the Apollo series' re-entry capsules, leaving the Phoenix's warp drive in orbit. They were later recovered and went into the Smithsonian, along with the parts of the fuselage detached when the warp nacelle first deployed, where the ship was reassembled and put on display. This made it possible for Picard to live out his boyhood dream of being able to touch the Phoenix with his own hands, something he'd never been able to do as a child in the 24th century.

It's the most obvious parallel to more familiar rocket technology to be sure, the problem is leaving the warp core and nacelles in orbit seems like a really bad idea. Especially if anti-matter reactors are involved, that is a very serious overhead problem that could either come crashing down unexpectedly, or be hit with another piece of space junk. Or for that matter shot down by the other trigger happy factions mentioned in the film. A warp core breach over Earth seems like the sort of thing you'd actively want to avoid.

Plus, how does leaving it up there do any good? You'd have to launch and re-attatch another module to use the warp core again. Sure, the Starfleet of 100 years later or the Vulcans could have brought the warp core down later, but that doesn't seem like something Cochrane would have planned for in the original design.

Technical challenges aside, the method in the art book I linked suggesting the entire Phoenix module, warp core, nacelles and all were supposed to soft land back on Earth makes the most sense. The warp section of the Phoenix just does not seem to be as disposable as more current rocket-booster systems. That doesn't mean the capsule wasn't designed to detach and descend back to Earth on its' own as an emergency measure. That would only make sense.

[Saintheart]

Technical challenges aside, the method in the art book I linked suggesting the entire Phoenix module, warp core, nacelles and all were supposed to soft land back on Earth makes the most sense. The warp section of the Phoenix just does not seem to be as disposable as more current rocket-booster systems. That doesn't mean the capsule wasn't designed to detach and descend back to Earth on its' own as an emergency measure. That would only make sense.

I'll buy that, but I'd love to see how all those delicate, "must be protected behind the walls of a Titan II rocket during ascent and only folded out once we're in zero G" parts of the warp core managed to survive the maximum 1,477 degrees Celsius attainable in re-entry. Cochrane only invented the warp drive, very unfortunately from Lily's reaction during another part of the film there clearly weren't forcefields around in 2063.

I mean, bringing something down which looked that chop-shopped and likely bearing the aerodynamics of a rock so gently and without it flying to bits during re-entry would be an aeronautical achievement on par with ... well, inventing a warp drive.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It's the most obvious parallel to more familiar rocket technology to be sure, the problem is leaving the warp core and nacelles in orbit seems like a really bad idea. Especially if anti-matter reactors are involved, that is a very serious overhead problem that could either come crashing down unexpectedly, or be hit with another piece of space junk. Or for that matter shot down by the other trigger happy factions mentioned in the film. A warp core breach over Earth seems like the sort of thing you'd actively want to avoid.

Plus, how does leaving it up there do any good? You'd have to launch and re-attatch another module to use the warp core again. Sure, the Starfleet of 100 years later or the Vulcans could have brought the warp core down later, but that doesn't seem like something Cochrane would have planned for in the original design.

Technical challenges aside, the method in the art book I linked suggesting the entire Phoenix module, warp core, nacelles and all were supposed to soft land back on Earth makes the most sense. The warp section of the Phoenix just does not seem to be as disposable as more current rocket-booster systems. That doesn't mean the capsule wasn't designed to detach and descend back to Earth on its' own as an emergency measure. That would only make sense.

Further more he only needs his prototype to work ONCE. Then he can get the money and resources to make something reusable. It was always intended to be disposable because he never had the money or resources to do anything better. But he knew once he'd successfully flown once he'd get all the investors he'd need to make a reusable warp capable vessel.

[LibraryOgre]

Further more he only needs his prototype to work ONCE. Then he can get the money and resources to make something reusable. It was always intended to be disposable because he never had the money or resources to do anything better. But he knew once he'd successfully flown once he'd get all the investors he'd need to make a reusable warp capable vessel.

And, even if you can't make your warp ships so they can land, if you can get orbital facilities made, you can boost to orbit, then board your warp ship and be at Mars before breakfast.

[Trafalgar]

Just watched First Contact again, which is my favorite of the TNG movies—an admittedly low bar, but unlike the others it doesn’t feel quite as much like a slightly longer TV episode.

This time around two questions occurred, which the movie never quite explains:

First, how did the Phoenix land after its first warp flight? The movie glosses right over that, and given that it was a converted ICBM, I don’t think a soft landing was part of the original design. Did the capsule detach and come down via parachute in the Montana woods? We know it survived to be exhibited in the Smithsonian, but not its condition. Was this ever addressed?

And second, who exactly is Lily? The movie never quite specifies her role. She’s clearly personally attached to Cochrane and fully committed to his project, but in what capacity? She scrounged titanium for the cockpit, and she defends the installation as best she can, but she doesn't seem to have any role to play in the actual launch or flight testing.

As for her relationship with Cochrane, they don’t seem to be involved as more than colleagues, and while she’s young enough to be his daughter, that doesn’t seem likely either. Do we know anything more about her than what’s presented in the theatrical version?

I believe they just used the ICBM as a booster to get the Phoenix into orbit. They would have removed the old nosecone and warhead assembly and replaced it with the ship.

If you want to nitpick at the movie's realism, I would bet the Phoenix weighed a whole lot more that the warheads on an ICBM. Would the ICBM have enough thrust to get the added weight into orbit? Would the extra weight throw the center of gravity off on the rocket enough to make it uncontrollable?

But, then again, we are talking Star Trek, where FTL ships and transporters are every day occurrences.

[hamishspence]

Depends on the ICBM - but one ICBM of note, the Titan rocket, was used to put manned capsules into orbit - the Gemini capsules.

Maybe in the ST universe, ICBM technology is already more advanced than in our universe, and continued to improve till the last world war, to the point that the ICBM of that generation is big enough to lift the Phoenix.


After all, in TOS, America is capable of putting a missile platform into orbit in the 60s - the Assignment: Earth episode.