Is there a variant of Wizard with 3/4 bab?

[Vault756]

Topic in the title pretty much. I'm working on a gish build and I'm trying to get all the math to fall into place just right and honestly a 3/4 bab version of wizard would be perfect. Battle Sorcerer has 3/4 bab but sorcerers get new levels of spells 1 level later than Wizards which just kind of ruins it. The build has levels of Abjurant Champion and is which is why the bab is somewhat important. I also have plenty of feats to spare so if I need to spend 1 or 2 to make this work I do not mind.

[Psyren]

What specifically is the build attempting to get to and where is it falling short?

I'm not aware of any 3/4 BAB wizards specifically, but through a combination of dips in other PrCs (e.g. ones that give +1 BAB and +1 casting on entry, like Dragonslayer) and other methods for keeping your casting progression up you should be able to kludge your way there. There are also 3/4 BAB classes that feel like wizards if that end of things is flexible.

[Troacctid]

Death master (Dragon Compendium Vol. 1) is a wizard variant in the same sense that wu jen is a wizard variant. It has 3/4 BAB.

[Firebug]

I don't think so, no without losing CL.

What level do you need the higher BAB at? Before Abjurant Champion or after?

Thrall to Orcus or Demogorgon could work. Both have prereq +4 BAB, a couple skill ranks (2-3 skills at 2 ranks), 2-3 feats... and Evil of some sort. One has a requirement of 1st level spells, and the other has a requirement of a Necromancy spell known.

They both get +1 BAB and a choice of +1 caster progression(or a bonus feat) at 1st level. They do get proficiency in all martial weapons and all armor though, so that might free up something.

Spellsword gets +1 BAB and +1 caster progression at 1st, but also requires +4 BAB and proficiency in all simple/martial and armor. No feat prereqs though, so that's nice. Thrall actually qualifies you for Spellsword, but since it seems you are trying to sneak it in before Abjurant Champion, it's not going to help.

Ruathar gets +2 BAB over 3 levels, and full CL. Requires 3rd level spells but not BAB or feats.

If you somehow can get the Phantom Steed spell early, Knight Phantom could work. But it doesn't have spell progression at level 1.

So maybe something like Wizard 5 / Ruathar 3 / Thrall 1 / Abjurant 5 /Spellsword 1. Only 1 level faster than straight wizard though. Those Wizard 5 really hurts the BAB though.

After Abjurant Champion... Sacred Exorcist? Or just more dips to get +1 BAB/+1CL.

[Gruftzwerg]

Battle Sorcerer has 3/4 bab but sorcerers get new levels of spells 1 level later than Wizards which just kind of ruins it.

Kobolds with "Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" gets an extra Sorcerer lvl spell progression and thus get on pair with Wizards.
A Changeling with Racial Emulation can also pass the (kobold) requirements for that.

[Ramza00]

Not what you are asking but Pathfinder has organizations and you can get different benefits when you go up with favors inside the organization (fame if I recall)

Well one of these organizations is the generic Guild type of organization and then there are specialized Guild examples but your DM is encouraged to make their own.

Guild

Spellcaster guilds are superficially similar to academies in that their members work together and trade knowledge to better the group overall. Alchemists, bards, multiclassed spellcasters, and spellcasters who specialize in item creation are the primary members of guilds.



As guild students increase in fame, they gain the following rewards.

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Senior Guild Member (20 Fame): You have become a senior member of the guild. Select a category of magic item (such as magic armor, magic weapon, rod, or staff) that has an association with your guild (if no association seems appropriate, select wondrous item). Using guild contacts, you can gain a 10% bonus on the amount of money you make selling these items.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
Guildmaster (50 Fame): You become one of the masters of your guild, and no longer need to pay tuition—every time you would normally pay tuition, you instead earn that amount of gold as your salary.

[ThanatosZero]

While Wizard 5 is the absolute minimum for to get yourself 17 BAB
(Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 5 with Militia or Otherworldly),
there is a quite convoluted but still RAW legal method to push your BAB higher. I will quote myself from the discord server.


Lycanthropy is a exceptional case within RAW, where you do not lose anything gained by leveling up alone in the lycantropy classes, when healed of the affliction.
You keep the feats and skill ranks, but nothing by the class features and their HDs.

To note: While RAW legal, it is a cheesy way for to obtain certain other PrC than usual.

For example, here a old build of mine with a slight update to abuse Lycantropy.

Wizard 2/Werebear 6/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3

-Healing Lycantropy-

Wizard 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Knight Phantom 7

When you use the PrC Rullings from CW, you make sure that all the levels in the other PrC qualify each other seperately, before healing.
In any case, it is still recommended to NOT use this path of optimisation.

All in all the above gives you slightly more BAB and HP,
than a vanilla Militia/Otherworldly Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 5

That said here a build abusing Lycantropy, but with heavy feat investments.
Elven Generalist Wizard 2/Werebear 6 +2LA (afflicted)/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2 (ECL 14)

-Healing Lycantropy-
Elven Generalist Wizard 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2 (ECL 6, BAB 5)
At that point you are effectively 8 levels behind, except you use a thought bottle to preserve your XP for the next level ups.


From there we go this path either way.
Elven Generalist Wizard 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10/Bladesinger 1 (ECL 6)
At ECL 20 you will have 19 BAB and 19/20 Wizard Spellcasting, which gave you in total +2 more BAB.


Now to the feat requirements, which one needs to select (bolded feats mark overlapping).
Dragonslayer: Dodge and Iron Will
Abjurant Champion: Combat Casting
Knight Phantom: Still Spell
Bladesinger: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier)

One thing though. If you become a werebear, you will gain, but lose Iron Will upon healing, so in order to turn your dragonslayer class features active again (Thus your spellsword CFs as well), you need a trip to a magical location. The Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel can be used to acquire Iron Will for 3000 GP.


Last but not least, here the link to the template class.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a

I still recommend the normal ways, because you will have your spells faster.
Also Bite of the Werebear (the spell) will give you enough strenght to eliminate the BAB loss.

[Zaile]

I'm aware of a somewhat obscure one called the Tinker (not to be confused with Tinkerer) form AEG Magic sourcebook (2002). It is pre-artificer and early 3e, but has 3/4 bab, d8 HD, a clockwork familiar, light armor, simple weapons, martial hammers and picks, Trapfinding, you get bonus skill points for crafting skills, and bonus feats from a very limited list (most in the book itself). You start with manuals that contain your entire spell list, but you can gain more spells by starting a new spellbook adding spells like a wizard does as you come across scrolls and other spellbooks. I guess they thought the extra $$ you needed for spells offset the boost? Very class-level dependent abilities though, so PRCs gimp most of the features, but the chassis is insane. Only downside is more expensive to get new spells. It is less versatile in play (I had a friend play one 1-16th) and tends to be very good at crafting, but less versatile in combat than a normal wizard. The minion actually had it play more like a crafting druid than wizard. If you PRC, you get into some classes earlier, but in the end it didn't outshine the other tier 1s in our group much, only when it came to crafting. We made airships on the cheap.

There is also the Magesmith in the same book that has 3/4, but is a spontaneous caster.

[Particle_Man]

Drider, if you can find a way to deal with the +4 LA. They have 3/4 progression on their 6 Aberration HD (so BAB +4), and can cast spells as 6th level wizards. Maybe that is enough to get you to the prestige classes you want?

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm

[Darg]

This is powergaming, but you could take spirit shaman with the magical training feat to get a spellbook. Get a wizard to write more spells into your spellbook of a higher level. Take versatile spellcaster which will then qualify you to take arcane preparation. Tada! Ability to cast any wizard/sorcerer spell and druid spells.

Another option is to simply create your own variant. Unable to specialize, delay spell level progression by 1, give access to 1 martial weapon proficiency, and no bonus feats.

Or for full BAB progression go duskblade.

[Particle_Man]

What do you want out of your build? Because if abjurant champion is just for AC, and you just want to buff a gish build, you could use cleric, get medium BAB, and cast spells in armour.

[Thurbane]

Any wizard using a Skillful weapon is treated as having 3/4 BAB, with that weapon. Could you somehow make his whole body a weapon, and put Skillful on a Necklace of Natural Weapons? No idea if this would work for what the OP wants to do or not.

A Cleric with the Magic (for Wands etc.) and Spell Domains, domain spontaneity or similar, and loading up on as many Anyspell/Greater Anyspell spells as you can is a vague facsimile of a 3/4 BAB Wizard. You could also trade out a domain for the Divine Magic ACF, which adds some Wizard spells from specific schools to your spell list.

Just read the OP properly: neither of these are going to be useful for Abjurant Champion.

[ThanatosZero]

Any wizard using a Skillful weapon is treated as having 3/4 BAB, with that weapon. Could you somehow make his whole body a weapon, and put Skillful on a Necklace of Natural Weapons? No idea if this would work for what the OP wants to do or not.

A Cleric with the Magic (for Wands etc.) and Spell Domains, domain spontaneity or similar, and loading up on as many Anyspell/Greater Anyspell spells as you can is a vague facsimile of a 3/4 BAB Wizard. You could also trade out a domain for the Divine Magic ACF, which adds some Wizard spells from specific schools to your spell list.

Just read the OP properly: neither of these are going to be useful for Abjurant Champion.

Using the spelldancer PrC with Arcane Disciple, you can persist via spelldancing a divine power spell.
This sets your BAB equal to your HDs.
Incantrix can also persist a divine power spell via it's class features.

[Vault756]

What specifically is the build attempting to get to and where is it falling short?

I'm not aware of any 3/4 BAB wizards specifically, but through a combination of dips in other PrCs (e.g. ones that give +1 BAB and +1 casting on entry, like Dragonslayer) and other methods for keeping your casting progression up you should be able to kludge your way there. There are also 3/4 BAB classes that feel like wizards if that end of things is flexible.

The Build wants to go Warblade > Wizard > Abjurant Champion > Uncanny Trickster. This is in a fractional BAB campaign. If I could get 3/4 BAB from my 1 level of Wizard that would line up with the 3 levels of Uncanny Trickster so that I'm only "losing" 1 BAB with this build. Battle Sorcerer being charisma based doesn't synergize as well with Warblade, which gets bonuses from Int, and doesn't allow the casting of Greater Luminous Armor.

So I want the casting level before Abjurant Champion obviously since I need it to get into champion. I could just give up on this point and have 18 BAB at level 20 but I really feel like I can get to 19 if I can just find some 3/4 bab wizard variant or some arcane cleric or something.

[ThanatosZero]

The Build wants to go Warblade > Wizard > Abjurant Champion > Uncanny Trickster. This is in a fractional BAB campaign. If I could get 3/4 BAB from my 1 level of Wizard that would line up with the 3 levels of Uncanny Trickster so that I'm only "losing" 1 BAB with this build. Battle Sorcerer being charisma based doesn't synergize as well with Warblade, which gets bonuses from Int, and doesn't allow the casting of Greater Luminous Armor.

So I want the casting level before Abjurant Champion obviously since I need it to get into champion. I could just give up on this point and have 18 BAB at level 20 but I really feel like I can get to 19 if I can just find some 3/4 bab wizard variant or some arcane cleric or something.

If you go with warblade, try this.

Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 (10)

The skill requirement can be met with Psychic Reformation and Primary Contract.

Human 32pb

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 16 -> 21
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Ability Score Increases and Feats:
1. Favored, Able Learner
3. Feat
4. INT +1
5. Psychic Reformation: [Feat: Primary Contact]
6. Combat Casting
8. INT +1
9. Feat
12. INT +1, Feat
15. Feat
16. INT +1
18. Feat
20. INT +1

BAB 18, CL 18, 17/20 Wizard Spellcasting, IL 15 and 8th level Maneuvers
(or IL 18 and 9th level Maneuvers, because DMs can allow levels in PrCs to give full IL instead)

[rrwoods]

Monk 1 + skillful amulet?

[Endarire]

I couldn't find it in a hurry, but using LA0 Aasimar (Savage Progression) you get full martial weapons proficiency. Use a combination of fractional BAB stacking, 2 flaws for bonus feats, Wizard, Raumathari Battlemage, Ruathar, Dragonslayer, Spellsword, Sacred Exorcist, and maybe also others to get 16 BAB and full casting progression at L20.

It's certainly easier just to dip Fighter1 or similar for full proficiencies and a higher BAB.

[Ger. Bessa]

You can, after the first wizard level

- Get tainted (moderately)
- Obtain Eldritch Corruption as a bonus feat, which qualifies you for
- Ruathar (3/4 BAB) 3 levels max

So in 4 levels you get 2.75 BAB.

Once you have either BAB 6, 3rd lv spells (without Eldritch Corruption) or 9 ranks in a skill, pay for restorations and maybe a miracle to cure your taint. You'll still qualify for Ruathar.

Marginal gain, is it enough ?

[Rebel7284]

Knight of the Weave or Suel Arcanamach might work for your build idea, but they don't get 9th level spells. Same for Duskblade or Assassin.

[Melcar]

Topic in the title pretty much. I'm working on a gish build and I'm trying to get all the math to fall into place just right and honestly a 3/4 bab version of wizard would be perfect. Battle Sorcerer has 3/4 bab but sorcerers get new levels of spells 1 level later than Wizards which just kind of ruins it. The build has levels of Abjurant Champion and is which is why the bab is somewhat important. I also have plenty of feats to spare so if I need to spend 1 or 2 to make this work I do not mind.

There is a weapon enchantment called Skillful from CA. That gives the wielder 3/4 base attack when wielding that particular weapon...

[Darg]

Knight of the Weave or Suel Arcanamach might work for your build idea, but they don't get 9th level spells. Same for Duskblade or Assassin.

OP wants all the benefits of being wizard while also getting a minimum of medium BAB. It would be extremely easy to get 18 BAB with 19/20 progression using an early entry trick or 17 BAB without.

Although, I do have to question the desire to rely on Martial Arcanist for caster levels when full caster progression is on the table. It provides the most benefit when you multiclass for lesser casting levels. An example would be fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion5/spellsword 2-9 for 18 caster levels and 14/20 caster progression. At 15 BAB and 20/20 progression it simply doesn't do anything.

[Vault756]

OP wants all the benefits of being wizard while also getting a minimum of medium BAB. It would be extremely easy to get 18 BAB with 19/20 progression using an early entry trick or 17 BAB without.

Although, I do have to question the desire to rely on Martial Arcanist for caster levels when full caster progression is on the table. It provides the most benefit when you multiclass for lesser casting levels. An example would be fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion5/spellsword 2-9 for 18 caster levels and 14/20 caster progression. At 15 BAB and 20/20 progression it simply doesn't do anything.

The build is focused around Warblade and not the caster levels is why. My desire is to do something like Warblade 5, Wizard 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Uncanny Trickster 3, and then back to Warblade(or possibly Jade Phoenix mage). The character cares more about defense and being in the fray, than having high level spells. Although high level spells are good that's not exactly what I want here. It's possible that 19 bab just isn't on the table for everything I want. In which case I've seen plenty of interesting 18 bab builds in this thread that simply drop Uncanny Trickster.


If you go with warblade, try this.

Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 (10)

The skill requirement can be met with Psychic Reformation and Primary Contract.

Human 32pb

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 16 -> 21
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Ability Score Increases and Feats:
1. Favored, Able Learner
3. Feat
4. INT +1
5. Psychic Reformation: [Feat: Primary Contact]
6. Combat Casting
8. INT +1
9. Feat
12. INT +1, Feat
15. Feat
16. INT +1
18. Feat
20. INT +1

BAB 18, CL 18, 17/20 Wizard Spellcasting, IL 15 and 8th level Maneuvers
(or IL 18 and 9th level Maneuvers, because DMs can allow levels in PrCs to give full IL instead)
1, Why do I need Able Learner?
2, How am I using Psychic Reformation here? My knowledge of Psionics is poor.
This build is interesting and I might consider it if I can't figure out how to make what I want to do work. The fact that it fits all 10 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage and all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion into 20 levels is sweet tbh. Not terribly happy about the loss in maneuvers early on but I think I can still grab all the ones I really want if I just put the Wizard levels before the Warblade level.

[Ramza00]

BAB is overrated with 18 vs 19. What matters is the "thresholds" of when the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attack come on line*. After that 18 vs 19 BAB is 5% more reliability your attack will succeed, but also there are different ways to increase this attack bonus that are easier to bump up than your BAB itself.


*What I am saying here is with your 2nd attack, does it occur at HD6, HD7, HD8, or HD9? You only care about this "threshold" for that 1 precise level for the remaining 4 out of 5 levels before the next threshold it does not matter.

[Darg]

The build is focused around Warblade and not the caster levels is why. My desire is to do something like Warblade 5, Wizard 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Uncanny Trickster 3, and then back to Warblade(or possibly Jade Phoenix mage). The character cares more about defense and being in the fray, than having high level spells. Although high level spells are good that's not exactly what I want here. It's possible that 19 bab just isn't on the table for everything I want. In which case I've seen plenty of interesting 18 bab builds in this thread that simply drop Uncanny Trickster.

Warblade 5/wizard 1/abjurant champion 5/JPM 9 nets you 19 BAB. Uncanny trickster would hamper the build. This gets you 13 levels of spellcasting too. Even if you cut JPM short, you come out ahead of uncanny trickster.

[ThanatosZero]

1, Why do I need Able Learner?
2, How am I using Psychic Reformation here? My knowledge of Psionics is poor.
This build is interesting and I might consider it if I can't figure out how to make what I want to do work. The fact that it fits all 10 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage and all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion into 20 levels is sweet tbh. Not terribly happy about the loss in maneuvers early on but I think I can still grab all the ones I really want if I just put the Wizard levels before the Warblade level.

1. With Able Learner you can spend skillpoints without to worry with the cross class costs, which can be handy early on.
2. You seek out a NPC Psion, which you pay for his services.
Psychic Reformation can be used to exchange any of your feats, with new ones you can qualify for.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm

You can exchange Able Learner into a feat more to your liking.
Last but not least, if your DM allows Magical Locations, try to gain access to the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel), where you can gain the Iron Will feat for 3000 GP, which too can be used with psychic reformation.

To Note: Having Warblade at the 1st level gives you a increased amount of skillpoints and Hit Points.
If you start with Warblade, you will have 12HP + Con modifier and 4x (4 Skillpoints + Int Modifier + Human Bonus).
If you go with Wizard first, you will have 4HP + Con modifier and 4x (2 Skillpoints + Int Modifier + Human Bonus).

Also, more HP at the start of your adventure increases your likelyness to survive early encounters.

[Darg]

Last but not least, if your DM allows Magical Locations, try to gain access to the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel), where you can gain the Iron Will feat for 3000 GP, which too can be used with psychic reformation.

Psychic Reformation only allows you to redo your decisions. It's a leap to assume that you can "redo" and then make decisions you could not have made at earlier levels. It's an even further leap that a feat you didn't choose while leveling would be a decision that could be redone. It lets you rebuild your character, not retrain your character which there are already rules for. I also wouldn't put it beyond a DM to declare that ranks purchased with the benefit of able learner lose half their value.

[ThanatosZero]

Psychic Reformation only allows you to redo your decisions. It's a leap to assume that you can "redo" and then make decisions you could not have made at earlier levels. It's an even further leap that a feat you didn't choose while leveling would be a decision that could be redone. It lets you rebuild your character, not retrain your character which there are already rules for. I also wouldn't put it beyond a DM to declare that ranks purchased with the benefit of able learner lose half their value.
I see! Then only Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle can exchange Iron Will for another feat.
Atleast Primary Contact can be used at 5th level with psychic reformation.

[Darg]

I see! Then only Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle can exchange Iron Will for another feat.
Atleast Primary Contact can be used at 5th level with psychic reformation.

You could, but I think retraining is the better option roleplay wise as primary contact is an extension of having contacts and one tends to like you more or owes you more than the others do. The feat is acting as a representation of the effort you put into building something external from you. As such, changing yourself wouldn't really change another's debt or gratitude. Retraining on the other hand can include calling in the debt or breaking off the relation as you focus on training for another feat.

The dark chaos shuffle is indeed the only way I see to change the iron will feat. But it is powergaming and not all DM's would allow such a thing lightly. And indomitable soul is a nice feat to gain access to.

[ThanatosZero]

You could, but I think retraining is the better option roleplay wise as primary contact is an extension of having contacts and one tends to like you more or owes you more than the others do. The feat is acting as a representation of the effort you put into building something external from you. As such, changing yourself wouldn't really change another's debt or gratitude. Retraining on the other hand can include calling in the debt or breaking off the relation as you focus on training for another feat.

That is true. I once asked on Discord, if feats could be postponed by RAW. And as I was told, it wasn't possible. That is why I was told that psychic reformation would work.
Retraining (PHB2 p.194) is the more logical choice.
It only takes two weeks and 50 GPs to retrain one feat to another.

[Darg]

That is true. I once asked on Discord, if feats could be postponed by RAW. And as I was told, it wasn't possible. That is why I was told that psychic reformation would work.
Retraining (PHB2 p.194) is the more logical choice.
It only takes two weeks and 50 GPs to retrain one feat to another.

The reason feats aren't able to be postponed is that it represents how your character in the background has been working and training to have the ability of the feat and finally achieved it. Similar to how wizards and sorcerers create and learn their spells on levelup. Your character is supposed to be growing organically, but for the purposes of the mechanics you are given break points in which you gain the benefits of that growth as level ups.

[Fouredged Sword]

I will take this moment to plug my favorite Wizard PRC for getting generic "Wizard+" for 3 levels, the Ruathar. It has zero build requirements for entry other than "be level 6" and grants 3/4th BAB, longsword proficiency, good reflex and will saves, and a number of other minor bonuses.

It's great for a zero spellcasting progression entry into Abjurant Champion and a number of other Gish builds.

[remetagross]

Death Master is definitely a fairly elegant way to go, and more likely to be DM-approved than a number of clever but rather convoluted other means that have been suggested here.

[Nifft]

There's probably something you could do with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Kobold Loredrake but that's not something I'd accept in a real game, so check with your DM before (ab)using.

[RandomPeasant]

If I was considering doing that, I'd probably just ask my DM if I could trade my bonus feats for 3/4 BAB. And as a DM, I'd probably allow that. It's just not that big of a deal to have.

[Thurbane]

Would Maho-Tsukai (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633147-The-Maho-Tsukai-s-Tainted-Handbook) work? The class, in general, just plain confuses me. It runs on a spells-known mechanic, so not very Wizard-y, I guess.