Tasha's Mind Whip: overrated?

[Merudo]

It seems everyone love Tasha's Mind Whip, and I can't figure out why.

The spell works like this: if the target fails an intelligence fail, it can't take reaction until the end of its next turn. On its next turn, it can only either move, take an action, or take a bonus action.

My biggest beef with the spell is that it basically requires the stars to align to be useful, and even then it only wastes a single action.


Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.
On the first round of combat, casting a concentration spell such as Web would be much more effective than Tasha's Mind Whip.
By the second round, the melee fighters will typically be engaged in close combat. At this point casting Tasha's Mind Whip is a waste, as melee fighters don't move much anyway.
You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.



It is rare that Tasha's Mind Whip can be employed successfully, and even then its effects are minor. I'd much rather cast Dissonant Whispers, Command, or Grease, all of which are usable much more frequently and can have dramatically more impressive results.

[SpanielBear]

I think it works best, unfortunately, as a warlock spell. I say unfortunately because obviously it isn’t on the warlock spell list, but having been granted it by a kind and generous dm, I can say it goes really well with warlock spells always being upcast. At level 5, you have 4 ‘shots’, which you can cast at creatures irregardless of the proximity of allies and the effects trigger on a weak save against a damage type there is little resistance to. One blast is hard to justify a level 2 slot on, maybe, but multiple blasts have been clutch when the party has been ambushed at close quarters and the squishies need to disengage and the fighters need to reposition.

[Frogreaver]

It seems everyone love Tasha's Mind Whip, and I can't figure out why.

The spell works like this: if the target fails an intelligence fail, it can't take reaction until the end of its next turn. On its next turn, it can only either move, take an action, or take a bonus action.

My biggest beef with the spell is that it basically requires the stars to align to be useful, and even then it only wastes a single action.


Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.
On the first round of combat, casting a concentration spell such as Web would be much more effective than Tasha's Mind Whip.
By the second round, the melee fighters will typically be engaged in close combat. At this point casting Tasha's Mind Whip is a waste, as melee fighters don't move much anyway.
You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.



It is rare that Tasha's Mind Whip can be employed successfully, and even then its effects are minor. I'd much rather cast Dissonant Whispers, Command, or Grease, all of which are usable much more frequently and can have dramatically more impressive results.

It's a non-concentration spell that can easily deny an enemy the ability to attack or to move away after attacking. It targets a typically weak save. It scales well with spell level.

Compared to Command - there's no shared language limitation making it much more generally applicable.
Compared to Grease - it can be used when an enemy is just outside melee range to prevent them from getting an attack in the next turn. It can even be used when an enemy is right beside an ally provided the ally can move before the enemies turn (no reaction means no OA).
Compared to Dissonant Whispers - it's more likely force an enemy to waste an action and it scales by spell level

Part of it is that there are just so few even remotely good non-concentration spells.

[SharkForce]

It seems everyone love Tasha's Mind Whip, and I can't figure out why.

The spell works like this: if the target fails an intelligence fail, it can't take reaction until the end of its next turn. On its next turn, it can only either move, take an action, or take a bonus action.

My biggest beef with the spell is that it basically requires the stars to align to be useful, and even then it only wastes a single action.


Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.
On the first round of combat, casting a concentration spell such as Web would be much more effective than Tasha's Mind Whip.
By the second round, the melee fighters will typically be engaged in close combat. At this point casting Tasha's Mind Whip is a waste, as melee fighters don't move much anyway.
You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.



It is rare that Tasha's Mind Whip can be employed successfully, and even then its effects are minor. I'd much rather cast Dissonant Whispers, Command, or Grease, all of which are usable much more frequently and can have dramatically more impressive results.

have you perchance considered the implications of using it on an enemy that is in a web spell? it can be pretty mean :)

[stoutstien]

For the spell lists it appears on, sorcerer and wizard, it has a pretty sweet spot with effect without concentration, targeting a rarer save, and easy targeting. Removing 50% of a target's action economy is a pretty big deal. Stacking it with anything that calls for an action to address is a good way to maximize it.

[1Pirate]

Targeting a typically weak save like Intelligence is, I’ve found, often underrated. Grease, Web, and Command are all save or sucks(I’m not sure why you compared it to Dissonant Whispers, that’s a bard spell, TMW is wizard/Sorc so they’re not competing for the same spot).
Command, as mentioned, has a language restriction.
Grease and Web are also situational in that you don’t always want to create an unfriendly battlefield hazard. Grease, it should be noted, does nothing to flying enemies and very little to enemies immune to prone. TMW is still guaranteed damage under most circumstances(should also note it has a better range than Web and works on enemies immune to restrained).

On the other side of the DM’s screen, TMW is a great spell for the BBEG’s mook spellcasters. It’s guaranteed half-damage and targeting Int means it might connect with that Paladin and his annoying Aura of Protection, stop that Barbarian from raging on his first turn, or prevent that damn Sorcadin from counterspelling or Shield/Absorb Elements the BBEG’s next move.

To be clear, I’m not saying the spells mentioned are bad or that TMW the absolute bee’s knees, I’m just saying it’s rated fine.

[Nidgit]

Imo where Mind Whip really shines is against high level enemies or those with class levels, since both will typically make better use of their action economy. It's particularly diabolical when used against PCs, especially if you catch any of them out of position. Upcast to disable half the party and they'll absolutely hate whichever villain you have them fighting.

Beyond that it's middling, but the neat scaling means that there will usually be some use for it.

[Merudo]

have you perchance considered the implications of using it on an enemy that is in a web spell? it can be pretty mean :)

Grease works better here. If the enemy falls prone in the Web, they very likely won't have the movement to both get up and exit the web.

[Merudo]

(I’m not sure why you compared it to Dissonant Whispers, that’s a bard spell, TMW is wizard/Sorc so they’re not competing for the same spot).

Dissonant Whispers and Command can be learnt from the Fey Touched feat.

[Witty Username]

It can work very well with forced movement options which are abundant in Tasha's. Also, good int saves are pretty rare so it can have some utility for that reason. For example, with grease and web both use a dex saving throw which could prove a liability against some enemies, mind whip can accomplish the same effect while giving better save coverage.
As for the melee fighter's comment, this becomes much less of an issue when fighting multiple enemies, where controlling one can keep it at bay while the melee fighters deal with others. and since it takes reactions the fighter can get their beats in and then walk out of melee range pretty easily.
Also, 3d6 psychic damage along with its effects isn't big, but it is damage while you are getting its effects. Most debuffs before 4rd level spells don't deal damage as I recall.

Also, grease, web, and command are all pretty good spells as I understand. Being alright but meh, in comparison to some of the better spells in the game doesn't feel like a bad spot.

I don't think I would upcast it unless I was a multiclass build but if I was it has a pretty good upcast for that purpose.

[Dark.Revenant]

As a DM, I'd say Tasha's Mind Whip is an excellent tool in my arsenal to hit the players with. It hurts them, inconveniences them, but doesn't take them out of the fight.

[loki_ragnarock]

The game wasn't designed around monsters making intelligence saves.

Here's some lists:




Int Saves Proficiency:
Aboleth
Solar
Beholder
Death Tyrant
Cambion
Demilich
Nalfeshnee
Yochlol
Bone Devil
Empyrean
Dao
Efreeti
Githyanki Warrior
Githyanki Knight
Githzerai Monk
Githzerai Zerth
Hobgoblin Warlord
Kraken
Lich
Mindflayer
Mummy Lord
Guardian Naga
Sahuagin Baron
Androsphinx
Tarrasque
Arcanoloth
Archmage
Mage
=28


Psychic Resistance/Immunity:
Animated Armor/Flying Sword/Rug of Smothering – Note, Int is 1. No proficiency.
Couatl
Demilich
All 4 Golem
Revenant
Androsphinx
Gynosphinx
= 12


Intelligence Penalty:
Animated Armor/Flying Sword/Rug of Smothering
Ankheg
Basilisk
Behir
Needle/Twig/Vine Blight
Bugbear
Bulette
Bullywug
Carrion Crawler
Centaur
Chimera
Chull
Cockatrice
Crawling Claw
Cyclops
Darkmantle
Dretch
Goristro
Hezrou
Manes
Quasit
Vrock
Bearded Devil
Lemure
All 6 Dinosaurs
Displacer Beast
Adult/Young/Wyrmling White Dragon
All 4 Elementals
Ettercap
Ettin
Formian
All 3 Fungus… should these count as monsters or hazards? Ah, well.
Gargoyle
Ghoul
Frost Giant
Hill Giant
Gibbering Mouther
Gnoll
Gnoll Pack Lord
All 4 Golem
Gorgan
Grick
Grick Alpha
Griffon
Grimlock
Harpy
Hell Hound
Hippogriff
Hook Horror
Hydra
Kobold
Winged Kobold
Lizardfolk
Magmin
Manticore
4 of 6 Mephits
Merrow
Mimic
Minotaur
Monodrone/Duodrone/Tridrone
Mummy
Myconid Sprout
Quaggoth Spore Servant
Ogres
Half Ogre
All 4 Oozes
Orc
Orc Eye of Gruumsh
Otyugh
Owlbear
Peryton
Piercer
Purple Worm
Quaggoth
Remorhaz
Young Remorhaz
Roc
Roper
Rust Monster
Fire Snake
Shadow
Shambling Mound
Shield Guardian
All 3 Skeleton
3 of 6 Slaad
Stirge
Tarrasque
Thri-Kreen
Troglodyte
Troll
Umber Hulk
Wyvern
Yeti
Abominable Yeti
Mezzoloth
All 3 zombies
92 out of 95 animals.
Berserker
Tribal Warrior
= 224

Psychic Vulnerability:
Flumph

(This isn't even including the creatures for which int is simply their lowest save, which is a whole nother category I didn't want to touch, but noticed as a trend while riffling through pages.)

The rider is decent; it significantly impairs the action economy of the enemy. It does damage. But it targets int saves... and int saves are tragically weak for a whole host of monsters. It should almost always work for most a spellcaster's career.

Hypnotic Pattern is still better, but that doesn't make this at all bad.

[SharkForce]

Grease works better here. If the enemy falls prone in the Web, they very likely won't have the movement to both get up and exit the web.

it takes an action to escape web. if they start their next turn in the web, they have to make the save again. there is *no* chance that they will have the movement to exit the web if they fail the save against tasha's mind whip, because they must choose to have an action before they're even allowed to try and save against the effect, and then if they do they cannot move because of tasha's mind whip.

grease is certainly *cheaper*, but I'm not convinced it is actually better at keeping someone in a web.

[MaxWilson]

You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.


Is #1 strictly necessary, even with RAW initiative? Even if some PCs go after the monster, whoever goes first can potentially grapple and move either the monster or other PCs.

I feel it's best to think of Tasha's Mind Whip as sort of the physical equivalent of Counterspell. It gives you the right mentality: don't mindlessly spam it, but look for opportunities to leverage it (especially for 10th+ level Enchanters).

[sophontteks]

It's a non-concentration CC spell targetting a weak save that can effect multiple enemies when upcast. And it does damage on top of it all.

{Scrubbed} Concentration is one of the biggest limitations on casters. This spell can be cast while concentrating on another spell.

The equivalent spells are command and blindness/deafness. It stacks up very well compared to them. They are top-tier spells by virtue of being non-concentration, so that's saying a lot.

Since the enemy can't use their reaction, it's a huge CC spell vs melee-only enemies. The team is free to just walk out of range, and the enemy loses their turn. Many of there enemies have low int too. Int, in general, is the best stat to target and really buffs this spells power.

Probably underrated if anything IMO.

[animewatcha]

Eldritch knight trying to close in on a particular target that is 'just' out of reach of melee?

[MaxWilson]

Since the enemy can't use their reaction, it's a huge CC spell vs melee-only enemies. The team is free to just walk out of range, and the enemy loses their turn. Many of there enemies have low int too. Int, in general, is the best stat to target and really buffs this spells power.

Probably underrated if anything IMO.

Counterpoint: there are numerous ways to defeat melee-only foes already, from a Mobile PC to Levitate + ranged weapons to Slow. Tasha's Mind Whip is therefore arguably redundant: it's primarily good against foes that were already easy to defeat.

Contrast Blindness/Deafness (hampers spellcasting) or Command (eats action economy, even on ranged monsters, and is cheaper to cast).

Tasha's Mind Whip is not underrated IMO. Is generally rated pretty good, is pretty good, but is not fantastic.

[Ir0ns0ul]

TMW pretty much saved our group against an Adult Red Dragon, since all other save-or-suck spells failed thanks to the good saves rolls and legendary resistance. I’m playing a Wizard and our group also has a Bard and a Cleric... in three rounds a single Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirits Guardian and others were not successful. So we spread out to avoid fire breath and our clever DM decided to viciously fly-kite one character at a time. The dragon basically were diving in combat, unleashing his three attacks and then flying out not worrying about OAs. Our DM was fair, once TWM succeeded, the dragon dived in and noted he was incapable to attack or even escape. Paladin and Barbarian finally had a good chance to do their show at melee range and both them were smart enough to retreat back 30 ft... until we realized everyone was close enough and the dragon pretty much fire breathed everyone.

[Cikomyr2]

Also, "when the enemy are in melee" is exactly when you want to cast it to support your melee party member. Because without reaction, they can just kite the opponent as much as they want and zip out of melee range. From there, the enemy doesn't have the option to engage and strike. Bam, fully wasted turn, the action economy is on your side.

[quindraco]

It seems everyone love Tasha's Mind Whip, and I can't figure out why.

The spell works like this: if the target fails an intelligence fail, it can't take reaction until the end of its next turn. On its next turn, it can only either move, take an action, or take a bonus action.

My biggest beef with the spell is that it basically requires the stars to align to be useful, and even then it only wastes a single action.


Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.
On the first round of combat, casting a concentration spell such as Web would be much more effective than Tasha's Mind Whip.
By the second round, the melee fighters will typically be engaged in close combat. At this point casting Tasha's Mind Whip is a waste, as melee fighters don't move much anyway.
You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.



It is rare that Tasha's Mind Whip can be employed successfully, and even then its effects are minor. I'd much rather cast Dissonant Whispers, Command, or Grease, all of which are usable much more frequently and can have dramatically more impressive results.

What Tasha's Mind Whip is good at is being upcast to remove multiple reactions at once from an enemy group. Since that means it's in direct competition with Disengage, naturally it's more niche than Dissonant Whispers or Command - but it's way better than Grease for its use-case, which is helping the party kite.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.

Please forgive this reference to the film Casablanca, yet Goblins, Gnolls, and Orcs often are used as "Usual Suspects" for D&D antagonists, and all three creature types have relevant Bonus Action options.

A Frontline Medic from GGR has a CR under a rating of 1, and has clerical spell casting equivalent to a 3rd level caster..and thus can have Spiritual Weapon, or Sanctuary spell prepared. Prohibiting a cool creature like a Nivix Cyclops, (also in Ravinica), from using their reaction is useful.

Legendary Actions can be impacted by Mind Whip.

The spells 'target niche'would seemingly be: Orcs, goblins, gnolls, clerics, and creatures with Legendary Actions.....this seems a rather broad niche, to me.

[Amnestic]

Legendary Actions can be impacted by Mind Whip.


Can they? Legendary Actions aren't taken on the creature's turn, they're "at the end of another creature's turn". From my read the spell shouldn't touch LAs at all.

[Kvess]

Legendary Actions can be impacted by Mind Whip.
I think Mind Whip is a great spell, but the rider effects take place on the creature's "next turn". Legendary Actions occur between turns and would not be affected, unless you’re implying that forgoing movement on their turn could keep a creature out of range — potentially wasting a Legendary Action.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I'm relying on memory here, but Incapacitation and anything that prevents the Legendary creature from taking "actions" inhibits using Legendary Actions.

I do think the verbiage from the monster manual can be parsed in such a manner that the aforementioned "actions" include Reactions and Bonus Actions.

Legendary Actions certainly feel like special reactions, that some creatures have.

It strikes me as incongruous to have a Vampire affected by the Mind Whip, categorically not be able to use an Opportunity Attack for someone moving past the vamp, only to then potentially act with no impediment for up to three Legendary Actions on other player's turns, only to then be subject to Mind Whip's restrictive Magic on the vampire's own turn.

[Amnestic]

The MM text, which I believe includes the errata, is as follows:


A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions - called legendary actions - outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.



Legendary Actions certainly feel like special reactions, that some creatures have.

They might feel like it, but they're very specifically not just "reactions". They're legendary actions, otherwise they'd be listed as "Special Reactions (3)" instead of Legendary Actions.

While it may feel weird that a legendary creature is less affected by it than a non-legendary creature, I'd say a 2nd level spell just straight turning off all of a creature's legendary actions also feels pretty weird to me.

[Kvess]

I take your point on the incapacitation status, but feel the “on its next turn” clause undercuts that reading somewhat. I’m willing to believe that legendary creatures are just harder to pin down.

[Kvess]

While it may feel weird that a legendary creature is less affected by it than a non-legendary creature, I'd say a 2nd level spell just straight turning off all of a creature's legendary actions also feels pretty weird to me.

I was thinking that too, but then I remembered an unlucky roll that one of my villainous NPCs rolled against Hold Person when trying to intimidate a low level party.

[Joe the Rat]

Hmm, if it sticks, you no opportunity attacks (run, kite, reposition), no reaction abilities (which are rare, but exist), no reaction spellcasting (wizards are likely to shake it off, but it's a definite hit on the sorcerer and warlock game), and limited to a single action on the target's turn (move or attack or other thing, no weird action-rider action tricks).

It's definitely nastier against players / PC-built characters, given the wide range of action options they carry. Uncanny dodge, deflect missiles (and monk antics in general), various shield-like abilities, contribute to rage negation, etc. This is so going on the mindflayer list.

On Legendaries: that's a tricky one. It doesn't fall under any of the effects RAW, but it is solidly reaction-like. This one could use a ruling. I'm inclined to let it shut down the legendaries, but I'm also seeing it as a good reason to burn the save.

[Thunderous Mojo]

They're legendary actions, otherwise they'd be listed as "Special Reactions (3)" instead of Legendary Actions.

Natural Language in D&D, is intended to make the rules feel more familiar to the players, and not introduce some Arcane Legal Distinction..that often make people feel that the "rules are crazy". (It didn't work🃏)

The portion of rules you quoted from the MM, supports my prior post.
Legendary Actions can't be used if the creature can't take "actions".

"Actions", in the context of Natural Language use, could include things like speedy Bonus Actions, or Reactions.


While it may feel weird that a legendary creature is less affected by it than a non-legendary creature, I'd say a 2nd level spell just straight turning off all of a creature's legendary actions also feels pretty weird to me.

Mind Whip doesn't just "turn off" Legendary Actions, the spell requires the subject to fail an Intelligence Saving Throw. Creatures with Legendary Actions often have Legendary Resistances as well.

The reading I'm advocating for allows a player with luck or creativity/rules mastery, (depending on one's point of view), to leverage the spell into providing an additional, excellent benefit, in what will likely amount to a round without the deprivations of an opponent's Legendary Actions.

While I respect, and agree that Legendary Monsters should be scary, and sometimes even feel a little like they are 'breaking' the rules.....(I still remember the player's reaction the first time I sprung a Legendary Action on them in 5e..."shocked outrage" is how I would describe it).......games lose energy when people feel like their abilities just "don't work", or that too many exceptions exist in the rules system that seem tailor made to short circuit whatever action they wish to take.

In short I think the benefits of having Mind Whip be a sound tactical choice against Legendary Actions, outweigh the demerits of a vampire not being able to use their Legendary Actions for a round; the Vampire is still pretty scary even on the 'worst case'.

[stoutstien]

It's definitely top tier DM spell territory. I've been using a lot because it's a huge shift in challenge without ramping deadliness.

[Amnestic]

I was thinking that too, but then I remembered an unlucky roll that one of my villainous NPCs rolled against Hold Person when trying to intimidate a low level party.

At the very least Hold Person is a) restricted by creature type (and a lot of legendary peeps aren't humanoids!) and b) concentration.


the Vampire is still pretty scary even on the 'worst case'.

Gonna disagree there. A vampire sans its legendary actions is pretty piddly and I'd expect it to get dumpstered very quickly without them.

I'd accept that it affected LA's more if Slow, in the game since the start, had some clarifying information about it anywhere in that regard (even if just a tweet), but it seems commonly accepted that Slow doesn't impact LAs (nor do I think it should).

[sithlordnergal]

I think you might be underestimating it. As a 2nd level spell it removes Reactions, forces you to decide between Moving/Action/Bonus Action, it lasts an entire Round, it deals an ok amount of damage, it has ok scaling, it targets an uncommon saving throw, its damage is rarely resisted, and its not Concentration so it can stack with other debuffs. Its results can be less dramatic then a spell like Dissonant Whispers, which can give an entire party a free round of Opportunity Attacks, but I'd say its equally useful. Looking into your specific list of issues:



Very few enemies use bonus actions, making that part of the spell typically pointless.

Yes and no, there are few monsters that use Bonus Actions, but the ones that do tend to have dangerous Bonus Actions. For example, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, anything with a Pounce, and some high CR bosses all have Bonus Actions. You get to deny them their Bonus Action, though I do agree this part is aimed more at players.



On the first round of combat, casting a concentration spell such as Web would be much more effective than Tasha's Mind Whip.

True, Mind Whip is not a spell to cast on the first round of combat, its a spell to be cast on the second round of combat. Since its not Concentration, it stacks with spells like Web. Its best used in conjunction with spells that activate at the start or end of a creature's turn, because you can essentially trap them there. Catch a creature in a Moonbeam, Wall of Fire, Sickening Radiance, Storm Sphere, ect., then cast Mind Whip on them the next turn. If there's someone in their face, like a Fighter or Barbarian, they're forced to make a choice. Either attack whoever is in their face and suffer the effects of the spell they're stuck in, or risk an Attack of Opportunity to move out of the spell and be unable to attack that round.

Its basically the same with Web. Catch a target in a Web then hit them with Mind Whip, if they decide to use their action to break free then they remain in the Web for the following turn. Since Web is Difficult Terrain, they'll still have their movement lowered by Web.



By the second round, the melee fighters will typically be engaged in close combat. At this point casting Tasha's Mind Whip is a waste, as melee fighters don't move much anyway.

This encourages movement by melee people since there's no risk of an Opportunity Attack. All the melee fighter needs to do is move 5 feet out of reach, that generally isn't all that difficult and can be done after you make your attacks. At that point the enemy has to choose to move closer or take an action, not both.



You could cast Tasha's Mind Whip on a melee fighter engaged with the party, and have the party retreat so as to waste the melee fighter's turn. However, this require that (1) every ally engaged with the fighter act before the target (2) no other enemy pins down the party (3) the target doesn't have a ranged attack.

This tends to be a lot easier then it seems:

First, you aren't really wasting the melee fighter's turn, since all they need to do is move 5 feet out of the target's reach. Unless the target's reach exceeds the melee fighter's movement speed, then there's no wasted turn since that melee fighter can still get in and make their strikes before moving back out. Now, the target could technically move away from the melee fighter, but that's all they can do. They can only move their base movement speed, and they won't be able to Ready any actions or make any attacks.

Second, given that Mind Whip only effects one target, its actually pretty easy to time things. Now, if you have a situation where you go, target goes, melee fighter goes, you could hold your action to cast it right before the melee fighter goes. As long as the melee fighter ends their turn outside of the target's reach, then you're golden. And as I stated above, you only need to be just barely out of their reach, so its not like you'll need to dash for most targets.

Third, you'd need at least three enemies to fully pin down the melee fighter, since if there are only two then they can move closer to the second fighter to leave the target's reach. At that point single target spells are a poor choice anyway, you're better off using an AoE to deal with the swarm of mooks.

Fourth, the ranged attack. Monsters tend to either have a strong melee attack or a strong ranged attack, its very rare for NPC monsters to be great at both. As a result, even if your target has a Ranged attack, its generally going to be weaker than their melee, or its on a cool down, like a Dragon and their breath.

[Segev]

I believe the foundation for the claim it doesn't shut down Legendary Actions hinges on the fact the spell says it prevents actions on the target's turn, and that legendary actions happen off the target's turn, not on the question of whether legendary actions are actions or not.

[KorvinStarmast]

I believe the foundation for the claim it doesn't shut down Legendary Actions hinges on the fact the spell says it prevents actions on the target's turn, and that legendary actions happen off the target's turn, not on the question of whether legendary actions are actions or not.
What Segev said. :smallsmile:
At our table (my brother is the DM) it can't override legendary actions. After we discussed it, (me, brother, the AT player who chose it) we felt that this was a best fit for how it worked.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd be surprised if Mind Whip worked. As far as I know, the only way to prevent a creature from taking Legendary Actions was by Incapacitating them via Stun-Locking with a Monk, or spells like Hideous Laughter or Hold Person/Monster.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd be surprised if Mind Whip worked. As far as I know, the only way to prevent a creature from taking Legendary Actions was by Incapacitating them via Stun-Locking with a Monk, or spells like Hideous Laughter or Hold Person/Monster. Yes. They are tough to suppress. (And I think that's on purpose) IIRC, power word stun will also do the trick.

[sithlordnergal]

Yes. They are tough to suppress. (And I think that's on purpose) IIRC, power word stun will also do the trick.

Heh, but who wants to use an 8th level spell when a 1st level spell will work just as well? And unlike there being an immunity to stun, as far as I know there's nothing immune to being Incapacitated. >=D Although Power Word Stun does get to ignore the save on the first time.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I believe the foundation for the claim it doesn't shut down Legendary Actions hinges on the fact the spell says it prevents actions on the target's turn, and that legendary actions happen off the target's turn, not on the question of whether legendary actions are actions or not.

The critical point is the fact that mind whip says:
On a failed save, the target takes 3d6 psychic damage, and it can't take a reaction until the end of its next turn.

The quoted portion is what runs afoul of the Monster Manual. The Action Economy Restriction, isn't germane to the issue of Legendary Actions. It's just gravy.🍻


What Segev said. :smallsmile:
At our table (my brother is the DM) it can't override legendary actions. After we discussed it, (me, brother, the AT player who chose it) we felt that this was a best fit for how it worked.

I certainly wouldn't quit if a DM ruled this way..it is an imminently reasonable way to parse the text. The best part is sounds like your brother clarified how he would adjudicate the spell before it even came into play.

So Korvin if you started playing D&D in 1975, when did your brother start playing D&D?

[KorvinStarmast]

So Korvin if you started playing D&D in 1975, when did your brother start playing D&D? A few months after I started. (He's my older brother). The DM was a mutual friend. We'd had a huge battle in the third level of the dungeon where some dwarfs who were in the dungeon (a random encounter that ended up in them and us working together) had allied with us; when the battle was over one of those dwarves had survived. As we were prepping for our next session he showed an interest in playing with us. (He and the DM had played a lot of board games together; Avalon Hill and SSI wargames).
The DM had him pick up the tough dwarf as his character (though he did roll stats) and boom, off we went looking for the way down to the fourth level of the dungeon. (It was mostly a dungeon crawl as we started out ...)

[Solusek]

Also, "when the enemy are in melee" is exactly when you want to cast it to support your melee party member. Because without reaction, they can just kite the opponent as much as they want and zip out of melee range. From there, the enemy doesn't have the option to engage and strike. Bam, fully wasted turn, the action economy is on your side.

That is actually insane. I hadn't thought of that. If an opponent fails their Mind Whip save your entire melee team can attack it and then just walk away from it. No reaction means no attack of opportunity. And then it's stuck out of range from anything and has to decide between moving or attacking but can't do both. If it's an opponent without a ranged attack it just lost a whole turn.

All this from a second level spell that targets a VERY susceptible saving throw and doesn't require concentration. Oh, plus it upcasts to affect multiple targets. I think Mind Whip might need a nerf.

[loki_ragnarock]

That is actually insane. I hadn't thought of that. If an opponent fails their Mind Whip save your entire melee team can attack it and then just walk away from it. No reaction means no attack of opportunity. And then it's stuck out of range from anything and has to decide between moving or attacking but can't do both. If it's an opponent without a ranged attack it just lost a whole turn.

All this from a second level spell that targets a VERY susceptible saving throw and doesn't require concentration. Oh, plus it upcasts to effect multiple targets. I think Mind Whip might need a nerf.

Here's a fun interaction:

If the person with counterspell doesn't counterspell it, they lose their ability to counterspell if it lands.

If the person with counterspell does counterspell it, they've used their reaction to cast counterspell and can't cast it again.

Mind Whip wins mage duels, too.

[quindraco]

That is actually insane. I hadn't thought of that. If an opponent fails their Mind Whip save your entire melee team can attack it and then just walk away from it. No reaction means no attack of opportunity. And then it's stuck out of range from anything and has to decide between moving or attacking but can't do both. If it's an opponent without a ranged attack it just lost a whole turn.

All this from a second level spell that targets a VERY susceptible saving throw and doesn't require concentration. Oh, plus it upcasts to affect multiple targets. I think Mind Whip might need a nerf.

You can do something similar with Dissonant Whispers, you know. And Dissonant Whispers was brought up by OP, in the initial post.

[Cikomyr2]

You can do something similar with Dissonant Whispers, you know. And Dissonant Whispers was brought up by OP, in the initial post.

Dissonant Whisper doesn't deprive the enemy of an action next turn, and can't be upcast to multiple target.

[quindraco]

Dissonant Whisper doesn't deprive the enemy of an action next turn, and can't be upcast to multiple target.

Naturally. That, too, was already discussed, earlier in the thread.

[MaxWilson]

Dissonant Whisper doesn't deprive the enemy of an action next turn, and can't be upcast to multiple target.

Confusion does, however: denies reactions and (with high probability) actions, for multiple rounds. Ditto Slow.

But they cost concentration and target Wis. Tasha's Mind Whip is cheaper, but has a weaker effect. It's a tradeoff.

[ATHATH]

That is actually insane. I hadn't thought of that. If an opponent fails their Mind Whip save your entire melee team can attack it and then just walk away from it. No reaction means no attack of opportunity. And then it's stuck out of range from anything and has to decide between moving or attacking but can't do both. If it's an opponent without a ranged attack it just lost a whole turn.

All this from a second level spell that targets a VERY susceptible saving throw and doesn't require concentration. Oh, plus it upcasts to affect multiple targets. I think Mind Whip might need a nerf.
You need all of your teammates who're engaged in melee with Mind Whip's target(s) to have their turns in the initiative order be between you casting Mind Whip and the target's turn. Otherwise, the Mind Whip target will be able to take its action before your teammates can move out of melee range. Also, if the Mind Whip target is a caster or has a ranged attack, it can just stay in place to still attack you/your team.

[Segev]

You need all of your teammates who're engaged in melee with Mind Whip's target(s) to have their turns in the initiative order be between you casting Mind Whip and the target's turn. Otherwise, the Mind Whip target will be able to take its action before your teammates can move out of melee range. Also, if the Mind Whip target is a caster or has a ranged attack, it can just stay in place to still attack you/your team.

It's annoying that holding actions to reset your place in initiative is not supported in 5e, but you can still Ready a mind whip to go off right after the enemy's turn ends.

[Merudo]

It's annoying that holding actions to reset your place in initiative is not supported in 5e, but you can still Ready a mind whip to go off right after the enemy's turn ends.

Readying a spell takes up concentration. And, if your concentration is free, you have better spells to cast than Mind Whip.


Dissonant Whisper doesn't deprive the enemy of an action next turn, and can't be upcast to multiple target.

Dissonant Whispers works best on a Sorcerer, who can twin it for 1 sorcery point.


That is actually insane. I hadn't thought of that. If an opponent fails their Mind Whip save your entire melee team can attack it and then just walk away from it. No reaction means no attack of opportunity. And then it's stuck out of range from anything and has to decide between moving or attacking but can't do both. If it's an opponent without a ranged attack it just lost a whole turn.


Command:Flee is a level 1 spell, and does the same. Except it also triggers OAs from your team.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Dissonant Whispers works best on a Sorcerer, who can twin it for 1 sorcery point.
And allows it to use its move action on its turn to come back and then use its attack action, but more importantly.

Single class Sorcerer's can't cast Dissonant Whispers unless they're an aberrant mind and plenty of sorcerers aren't. Otherwise its Bard only and Bards can't cast Mind Whip without spending magical secrets, which is certainly a poor use of the feature.



Command:Flee is a level 1 spell, and does the same. Except it also triggers OAs from your team.

Command can be cast by Cleric's/Paladins and with Tasha's Cauldron's expanded spell list, Bards. But it can't be cast by sorcerers(except for divine souls) or by wizards so its another pointless comparison.

Most of the time when you have to choose between command/whispers/Mind Whip there is no choice because you'll only have access to one of those three spells.

If you're going to compare two spells its best to pick between spells on the same class list.

[MaxWilson]

You need all of your teammates who're engaged in melee with Mind Whip's target(s) to have their turns in the initiative order be between you casting Mind Whip and the target's turn. Otherwise, the Mind Whip target will be able to take its action before your teammates can move out of melee range. Also, if the Mind Whip target is a caster or has a ranged attack, it can just stay in place to still attack you/your team.

No you don't. You just need enough of them to go before the target that the others can grapple or shove the target or the other PCs out of its reach before its turn.

Don't use Mind Whip against casters except in conjunction with e.g. Silence, or Sickening Radiance.

[Merudo]

And allows it to use its move action on its turn to come back and then use its attack action, but more importantly.

Single class Sorcerer's can't cast Dissonant Whispers unless they're an aberrant mind and plenty of sorcerers aren't. Otherwise its Bard only and Bards can't cast Mind Whip without spending magical secrets, which is certainly a poor use of the feature.



Command can be cast by Cleric's/Paladins and with Tasha's Cauldron's expanded spell list, Bards. But it can't be cast by sorcerers(except for divine souls) or by wizards so its another pointless comparison.

Most of the time when you have to choose between command/whispers/Mind Whip there is no choice because you'll only have access to one of those three spells.

If you're going to compare two spells its best to pick between spells on the same class list.

Fey Touched.

[ATHATH]

It's annoying that holding actions to reset your place in initiative is not supported in 5e, but you can still Ready a mind whip to go off right after the enemy's turn ends.
But readying Mind Whip removes its main advantage over most other debuffing spells: its lack of a concentration requirement.

[Thunderous Mojo]

A few months after I started. (He's my older brother).

Thanks for sharing that. For some reason, I find it a delightful thought that between yourself and your brother, you have at least 90 years of experience at the table.🍻

[Segev]

But readying Mind Whip removes its main advantage over most other debuffing spells: its lack of a concentration requirement.

True. And the worst part is, this is a persistent problem throughout combat established at initiative roll, which you cannot remedy. It makes the initiative roll into a bad facsimile of what it's meant to represent. Why does 5e not permit resetting your action until later in the round?

If it's going to do that, NOTHING should be "until the end of the creature's next turn;" it should always be "until the [start or end] of your next turn."

But it'd be so much easier just to permit somebody to say, "I voluntarily delay my turn until a later point in the combat to set my position elsewhere in the turn order."

[MaxWilson]

True. And the worst part is, this is a persistent problem throughout combat established at initiative roll, which you cannot remedy. It makes the initiative roll into a bad facsimile of what it's meant to represent. Why does 5e not permit resetting your action until later in the round?

That same issue occurs constantly in RAW 5E, whether it's knocking enemies prone or trying to heal damage or trying to damage a paralyzed target before it gets a fresh save--there are far too many cases where a high initiative roll actually penalizes you by separating your turn from the test of the party's turns, or making it matter too much which PC goes before the other even though from a diegetic/narrative standpoint they're cooperating. RAW initiative is downright awful, the worst thing in 5E.

Allowing PCs to delay their turns somehow would introduce some edge cases for e.g. spell durations, but it's better than the mess that vanilla RAW creates. Details not present in the narrative should not be so tactically important!

[Ettina]

Mind Whip could also be really good in a chase. Stop them from Dashing and you'll readily catch them or outrun them even if you're normally slower than them. Especially if they can normally Dash as a bonus action, too.

[Segev]

That same issue occurs constantly in RAW 5E, whether it's knocking enemies prone or trying to heal damage or trying to damage a paralyzed target before it gets a fresh save--there are far too many cases where a high initiative roll actually penalizes you by separating your turn from the test of the party's turns, or making it matter too much which PC goes before the other even though from a diegetic/narrative standpoint they're cooperating. RAW initiative is downright awful, the worst thing in 5E.

Allowing PCs to delay their turns somehow would introduce some edge cases for e.g. spell durations, but it's better than the mess that vanilla RAW creates. Details not present in the narrative should not be so tactically important!

I think I have a solution to that, but I also think this is getting off-topic, so I'll make a new thread.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks for sharing that. For some reason, I find it a delightful thought that between yourself and your brother, you have at least 90 years of experience at the table.🍻 There have been gaps. I stopped for over a decade ( most of the 00's and finally got back in about 2014) and had a number of breaks in the 90's when it didn't fit our social realm.