An “only toughness” wizard vs the “all combat feats” fighter.

[Particle_Man]

So we give the fighter every combat feat produced by wotc, but no non-combat feats except necessary prerequisites for combat feats. Those with other prerequisites will be gained at the appropriate level (weapon specialization for all weapons at 4th level, for example).

The wizard will be stripped of their bonus feats and given only toughness (repeatedly) for their other feats. Even their familiar will be a toad for more toughness.

At what level does this wizard surpass this fighter?

[ciopo]

Uhm, 1?

I'd ask the definition for "combat feats" and "surpass", but I don't feel the answer would change, unless the metric for "surpass" is "personally be a better beatstick"

It depends a tiny bit about where the qualifier for "combat feat" falls I suppose, but if it's not 1 it's 3 at the most in my opinion

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Level 3+.

If the Fighter uses a Glaive or other reach weapon, and has Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus, plus a decent Str, he can kill most opponents in one hit at 1st-2nd level and get ~5 attacks per round if enemies don't have ranged weapons. From 3rd level there are large monsters with reach like ogres, and the Wizard has spells like Web and Command Undead so he probably contributes more to trivializing encounters than the Fighter from that point on.

[Firebug]

PVP?
Who wins initiative?

That said, is there a combat feat that defeats Color Spray -> Coup de Grace? 15' Cone so defeats Reach Weapons, Will Negates, Auto-hit and Crit so proficiency doesn't matter. Say, a Scythe for a DC 18-42 fort or die depending on the dice roll.

[Crake]

PVP?
Who wins initiative?

That said, is there a combat feat that defeats Color Spray -> Coup de Grace? 15' Cone so defeats Reach Weapons, Will Negates, Auto-hit and Crit so proficiency doesn't matter. Say, a Scythe for a DC 18-42 fort or die depending on the dice roll.

Yeah, blind-fight beats colorspray. Close your eyes, swing blindly, get double chance to hit

[Gnaeus]

Ok, first off uberchargers and area control fighters can absolutely trivialize high level encounters that play into their strengths and this fighter is automatically both.

Second, since most games of 3.PF are fundamentally about combat, this fighter is going to have quite a bit more non-combat utility than you give him credit for, because the wizard will be needing to spend most of his WBL on combat and the fighter generally won’t, given his abilities.

Now the answer will vary somewhat based on optimization level and DM cheese tolerance. Assuming a standard play environment in which the bulk of time is spent doing activities like exploring monster filled areas and killing the inhabitants, and where tricks like planar binding do not equal infinite free slaves, I’d say surprisingly high. Probably in the 11-13 range.

Our fighter has good initiative (better than the wizard. Toads don’t generate initiative bonuses) and can reasonably be expected to one shot anything he can charge. Anything within his reach he can shut down. That includes AOOs on 5 foot steps or quickened spells.
He is capable of putting out impressive damage at range.
His defenses against most threats are quite decent. That color spray for example? He can quite literally kill you with his eyes closed.
He generates AOE debuffs with every charge.
He has some quite decent save or sucks.
He gets ToB maneuvers and a stance.
He is essentially an Ubercharger+ better spiked chain tripper+ Jack B Quick+ ranged combat specialist with some extra stuff on top, and additional bonuses against large creatures and dragons and undead and casters and a bunch of other stuff. He could literally just get +1 weapons of choice and spend the rest of his WBL on utility items and still rock most combats harder than his nerfed wizard opponent.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, blind-fight beats colorspray. Close your eyes, swing blindly, get double chance to hit

Nope!
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#pattern


Pattern
Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

[ciopo]

He gets only 3 manouvers however, not all of them, or are we waiving the limitations that are baked in? Same for anything with a BAB requirement prior to the adeguate level.

Lockdown spell I was thinking was sleep, but he's probably an elf :D or dwarf and grease, he doesn't need to be commonsoup human for this thought experiment. I.initiative balances out to nerveskitter I suppose, either way he dies to a word of pain at level one if we're contemplating PVP (I wasn't)

I'm not denying it's not useful, but "surpass" is very nebolous

Mhhhm, are the vile feats "combat" feats? I suppose Figther X always win initiative on virtue of Chosen of evil, but is that within scope? If not all, at least certainly some are

Does he have all soulmelds from singularly taken shape soulmelds?

Scope

[Particle_Man]

He gets only 3 manouvers however, not all of them, or are we waiving the limitations that are baked in? Same for anything with a BAB requirement prior to the adeguate level.

Lockdown spell I was thinking was sleep, but he's probably an elf :D or dwarf and grease, he doesn't need to be commonsoup human for this thought experiment. I.initiative balances out to nerveskitter I suppose, either way he dies to a word of pain at level one if we're contemplating PVP (I wasn't)



1) Prerequisites and other limits are not waived.
2) Not PVP. More “surpassed” in the tier sense or “why do I hang out with you on adventures again?”
3) Combat feats only. Shape soulmeld is not a combat feat.

[Gnaeus]

He gets only 3 manouvers however, not all of them, or are we waiving the limitations that are baked in? Same for anything with a BAB requirement prior to the adeguate level.

Lockdown spell I was thinking was sleep, but he's probably an elf :D or dwarf and grease, he doesn't need to be commonsoup human for this thought experiment. I.initiative balances out to nerveskitter I suppose, either way he dies to a word of pain at level one if we're contemplating PVP (I wasn't)

I would probably rule only 3 but he can retrain to level appropriate ones that he qualifies for. I’d be looking at Iron Heart Surge, with WRT as a close second. Both are not easily duplicated and very powerful.

Nerveskitter balances improved initiative once the wizard can reasonably prep it in 5 or 6 slots a day. At L1 if you have 2 nerveskitters you probably only have 3 combat spells, assuming no defenses or utility or mobility spells.

Power word pain isn’t a great argument for wizard. Under optimal circumstances, and being a mind affecting enchantment there’s a lot of stuff it won’t kill, it averages 10 rounds, 3.5 per round, 35 damage. The fighter can literally do that much in a single round at level 1. Charge with a lance + powerful charge. Or quick draw 2 large weapons with fighting style. In PVP, wizard casts, fighter one rounds wizard, spends several rounds trying to find a heal. So at best a draw. In PVE the fighter will absolutely be dropping enemies way faster than PWP.

Grease isn’t usually a fight ender. In fact it’s often no better than trip which the fighter is also very good at. The fighter is a fully functional AOE lockdown build at L1, with combat reflexes, spiked chain (with weapon focus), improved trip, and stand still at L1.

Sleep takes a full round to cast. Yeah, it might drop a 3-4 HD enemy or a couple mooks, but it might do nothing, and the enemy gets a round to stop you. But the fighter can charge kill a boss then cleave into the mook next to him.

And remember, the fighter has all of these, the wizard has only the ones he can prepare. The fighter even gets more than one per round sometimes. For example, he can chargepounce, cleave, then use his reach weapon+Spikes or unarmed strike to practice area control. Or quick draw a bow, rapid shot a couple of arrows, drop the bow and quick draw a spiked chain to block incoming enemies. At L2 the maneuvers come on line. At L4 he could be rapid shot TWF throwing dazing ricocheting boomerangs.

[Elkad]

1.

4hp, 2 con, 9 toughness (base, human, and scribe scroll), 3 toad. 18hp

One casting of power word pain. Do whatever you want with the others. Swift Expeditious Repeat, Blockade, Grease, Shield, Mage Armor, Nerveskitter, etc.

Win init. Cast PW:P, run like hell, win several rounds later.
Lose init. Fighter gets a swing or 7 (lucky crit might kill you), then the same.

If he can trade the familiar for abrupt jaunt, init probably doesn't matter, unless you lock them in a 10x10 room.

That holds until the Fighter can buy Iron Heart Surge with feats, but by then you are a real wizard with flying and mirror images and regal processions blocking charge lanes and....

[Lans]

Is it just feats that say a fighter can take this as a bonus feats or are we going a bit pass that? What about his normal feats?

[Particle_Man]

Only feats that fighter can take as bonus feats, and feats that are necessary prerequisites for feats that fighter can take as bonus feats. No other feats (so the fighter loses the seven or eight normal feats they would have gotten as regular characters, but then again they get all the fighter bonus feats).

Oh and wizard does not get anything for their lost class bonus feats so it is a 15 hp human wizard not an 18 feat human wizard. So no crafting, no feat based metamagic.

[ciopo]

1) Prerequisites and other limits are not waived.
2) Not PVP. More “surpassed” in the tier sense or “why do I hang out with you on adventures again?”

Oh, then never I guess, a fighter with all combat feats is a pretty significant beatstick to put your buffstack into, I feel

[Quertus]

"only Fighter bonus feats" is a far cry from "all combat feats". Anyone more knowledgeable than myself care to list some of the most egregious absences?

[Melcar]

So we give the fighter every combat feat produced by wotc, but no non-combat feats except necessary prerequisites for combat feats. Those with other prerequisites will be gained at the appropriate level (weapon specialization for all weapons at 4th level, for example).

The wizard will be stripped of their bonus feats and given only toughness (repeatedly) for their other feats. Even their familiar will be a toad for more toughness.

At what level does this wizard surpass this fighter?

About level 5...

[Gnaeus]

1.

4hp, 2 con, 9 toughness (base, human, and scribe scroll), 3 toad. 18hp

One casting of power word pain. Do whatever you want with the others. Swift Expeditious Repeat, Blockade, Grease, Shield, Mage Armor, Nerveskitter, etc.

Win init. Cast PW:P, run like hell, win several rounds later.
Lose init. Fighter gets a swing or 7 (lucky crit might kill you), then the same.

If he can trade the familiar for abrupt jaunt, init probably doesn't matter, unless you lock them in a 10x10 room.

That holds until the Fighter can buy Iron Heart Surge with feats, but by then you are a real wizard with flying and mirror images and regal processions blocking charge lanes and....

No.

Per op, bonus feats are lost. They don’t become toughness. You have 15 HP and a toad.

Fighter has better initiative. You can’t Nerveskitter AND Swift Expeditious Retreat.

Win init: cast PWP. Run 30 feet. Fighter charges. Trips you. One shots you with a quick drawn large greatclub for at least 2d8+6. Probably you die here. If you get up, move, cast, or 5 step he hits you more with a big bonus to hit on AOOs. You die. If you somehow clear that he quick draws 2 light crossbows (crossbow sniper, rapid reload, TWF, far shot, weapon focus) and shoots you in the back for 3d8+3 followed by 2d8+2/turn for several turns until you die. At best a draw for wizard. Fighter has several rounds to try to solve his problem. Among other solutions, drinking potions of CLW and lesser vigor probably allow him to survive the PWP. Plausibly within his starting gold. Even with the crossbows.

Lose init: fighter charges. Trips you. Repeat.
Or fighter charges. Powerful Charge. Flying kick. 1d12+1d8+1d3+4. You die. If you don’t die, he gets a free grapple.
Or small sized fighter mounted on dog with lance charges. See above but more damage and no chance to outrun him.
Or fighter charges. Murders your toad. Cleaves you with a bonus to hit.
Or fighter grapples. Odds of escaping his death grip very low. If you do escape, you are still in his threat range with standard action used. Anything you do provokes a trip. Or just an attack + stand still.
Or fighter throws 3 harpoons (EWP harpoon, TWF, rapid shot, brutal throw, quick draw, PB shot, WF harpoon) for 3d10+9 + 3 saves to avoid being impaled.

Also, mirror images are only a thing in PVE. At 3rd level the fighter gets mage slayer and pierce magical concealment.


"only Fighter bonus feats" is a far cry from "all combat feats". Anyone more knowledgeable than myself care to list some of the most egregious absences?

Some of the style feats and martial arts feats. Several TOB and CWar feats. Imperious Command.
Edit: and apparently monkey grip, so no large greatclub. Have to pull out a great hammer or something.

[Starbuck_II]

No.

Per op, bonus feats are lost. They don’t become toughness. You have 15 HP and a toad.


He said Toughness repeatily so that is normal hps + toughness (7 feats= 21 hps) + toad.

[Gnaeus]

He said Toughness repeatily so that is normal hps + toughness (7 feats= 21 hps) + toad.

We are discussing L1. I agree that once he has 7 feats they will all be toughness for 21. And at L 18 toughness x8 for 24 extra). At level 1 he has it twice for 15 hp.

[Silent Alarm]

Nope!

Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.
Eyes shut seems pretty sightless to me :smallconfused:

[JNAProductions]

Eyes shut seems pretty sightless to me :smallconfused:

How does the Fighter know to shut their eyes?

I also think PvP is a fool's comparison-it'd be better to compare against the kinds of things you might actually see at various levels.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

"only Fighter bonus feats" is a far cry from "all combat feats". Anyone more knowledgeable than myself care to list some of the most egregious absences?Gnaeus has so far assumed the Fighter has the Mage Slayer line, Dreadful Wrath (or similar), Flying Kick, Stand Still, and a few more, all of which seem very much like combat feats to me.

Before that I thought the line was somewhere around "are Iron Will/Steadfast Determination/etc combat feats," because for all his various offensive capabilities, save boosters help this Fighter with his vulnerabilities on defense. Now he's a bit more fragile. He can still get MoPM and the like with Martial Study... if he wants to max concentration with his 2+int skills. And then he's still screwed if he's flat-footed or faces more than 1 save per round. From a PVP perspective, this leaves him vulnerable to save-or-lose early on, if dice luck is on the wizard's side, even if he still wins >50% of the time. Luckily he doesn't exactly need to max strength; he can get decent wisdom to shore up that defense (and INT I guess for skill points, need it for expertise anyway). That should help increase the odds of winning, even if it's not 100%.

Regarding Color Spray, "sightless" is a creature trait, not a condition. Blinded is the condition. See e.g. Destrachan, or any similar creature in the MM. If I close my eyes, I am blinded, but I still have organs that normally detect things on the visual spectrum. Also, eyelids aren't exactly blackout curtains. Light still passes through them, just not well enough for you to discern various things. Much like me shining a flashlight in your face could wake you up, Color Spray could still affect someone whose eyes were closed. RAW aside, a lenient DM should at most provide a small circumstance bonus to the save. I guess the fighter could gouge out her eyes to prepare for the battle, if she wanted.

[Particle_Man]

"only Fighter bonus feats" is a far cry from "all combat feats". Anyone more knowledgeable than myself care to list some of the most egregious absences?

Sorry for the confusion! I was thinking Pathfinder where the "fighter bonus feats" are explicitly labelled with the tag "combat".

[Gnaeus]

Gnaeus has so far assumed the Fighter has the Mage Slayer line, Dreadful Wrath (or similar), Flying Kick, Stand Still, and a few more, all of which seem very much like combat feats to me..

Gnaeus is reading off someone’s compiled list of fighter combat feats. Because it isn’t 1985. I’m happy to refer to PFSRD or AonPRD like a person living in the computer age.

[Elkad]

We don't know the starting range, terrain, buff rounds, limits on starting wealth or anything else. Can the wizard bring a bunch of ponies to block charge and give cover? Pre-cast long buffs like mage armor? Short buffs like Shield? Can they both spend days digging and concealing pit traps around the battlefield? Can a raptoran or anthrobat start the fight already in the air? Can I make my half of the map water? All brambles?

Stick one PW:P and the best the fighter can manage is a tie.

[icefractal]

I thought this was "surpass" as in "be a much more important member of the party" rather than PVP.
Also - what rule set? I see [Combat] feats, but also PW:P and Abrupt Jaunt - is this 3.5, Pathfinder, or both combined?

I'll say that in terms of power:
"All 3.5 feats that could reasonably be called combat-oriented" > Pathfinder [Combat] feats > 3.5 Fighter bonus feats

Also that this discussion would be way easier in Pathfinder, due to having all [Combat] feats and all spells nicely listed and available to peruse.

[Particle_Man]

I thought this was "surpass" as in "be a much more important member of the party" rather than PVP.
Also - what rule set? I see [Combat] feats, but also PW:P and Abrupt Jaunt - is this 3.5, Pathfinder, or both combined?

I'll say that in terms of power:
"All 3.5 feats that could reasonably be called combat-oriented" > Pathfinder [Combat] feats > 3.5 Fighter bonus feats

Also that this discussion would be way easier in Pathfinder, due to having all [Combat] feats and all spells nicely listed and available to peruse.

I meant "surpass" as in "be a much more important member of the party" rather than PVP.

And I was thinking 3.5 fighter bonus feats (although if someone wants to go Pathfinder combat feats that is fine too so long as it is clearly indicated as such, since yeah it is easier to search for the tag "combat". In fact, here they are: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats so that might be an easier way to go).

[Lans]

The party composition would matter, a party of 4 wizards might be more inclined to take the fighter than a party of rogue/healer/fighter/warmage