The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Debatra]

Thread Eleven. This time around, we'll be tackling the remainder of Libris Mortis, as well as a few variants it provides for older classics.

If you're new here, you'll want to at least read through the "Clarification" section of the archive thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) to get a feel for what we're doing.

Please place your votes in bold. This isn't required, but it makes things easier on me when I go for the final counts.

And it's about time to start thinking about which book to do next. Not counting the aforementioned variants, we've only got ten monster entries left for the Book of Bad Latin.

---


Skulking Cyst
https://i.imgur.com/5N0qCad.png

Size & Type: Small Undead
Face/Reach: 5'/5' (I love this typo, and I especially love that it's happened multiple times in this book.)
HD: 4
Speed: 30', Climb 30', Swim 30'
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +8, Con -, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6 - Net +20, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: Two Primary... "Intestine Loops" (1d4)
Skill List: Climb, Hide (+8 racial), Listen, Move Silently (+8 racial), Search, Spot, Tumble
Body Shape: ...Not even sure how to describe that.
Speech (Languages): No (Understands Common and whatever languages it spoke in life)
CR: 4
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

So these creatures are the eventual result of the Necrotic Cyst line of spells. Good ability scores, 60' Blindsight, fire resistance 5, and +2 turn resistance make for a nice chasis. It can attach itself to a target after hitting with one of its intestines. It appears to lose its Dex to AC while attached, but this isn't actually stated (instead it just says that an attached Cyst has an AC of 15). Maybe this is meant to be akin to grappling, but again, this isn't actually written anywhere. There is no way to forcibly detach a Skulking Cyst mentioned anywhere in the monster entry. Each round it remains attached, it deals 1d4 Constitution damage, which sates its Inescapable Craving for blood. Once it has "drained" seven points of Con, it uses its Necrotic Cyst SLA and runs off. Note the word "drained", because this thing can't actually inflict Ability Drain. RAI is clear, but RAW is silly. Like the Skin Kite before it, it's unclear if detaching after seven points is required or just behavioral.

Speaking of SLAs, a Skulking Cyst can cast Darkness three times per day, and Necrotic Cyst once daily, both at CL 3.

[Morphic tide]

Small size with no speed penalty, and Climb and Swim speeds to boot, stealth and observation skills, +4 Natural Armor, a quite mad +8 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, and +6 Cha. This thing is very, very well built to be a Rogue, having +9 AC, an Intelligence bonus, +12 to stealth skills, and +2 to sensory skills... And +3 to UMD in case you want to try and do something with your SLA. You lose 2d6 Sneak Attack (average -7 damage) and gain 1d4 Con damage per round. You have, to top it off, 3/day Darkness and the ability to ignore it.

I'd say give this LA +0, as the lost Sneak Attack dice get outmoded by the Con damage (-2 Con is -1 per HD, so the break-even point is all of 7hd targets), and you're the ultra-stealth form of Rogue that only suffers HP damage when things have gone extremely wrong so the lack of Con is a simple tradeoff instead of a crippling detriment.

Also, can I call out the weirdness with how there's just the one Skulking Cyst? There's a whole line of spells that do different things with them, requiring a "Mother Cyst" feat, and yet there's just the one same monster whether you violently explode them or feed their soul to the thing in a fashion so absolute that True Resurrection doesn't work. And for some reason Necrotic Bloat doesn't work, you need to spend a 6th-level Save Or Die.

[Thurbane]

Skulking Cyst


Small Undead
4 RHD (d12 hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
30 ft speed, climb 30 ft, swim 30ft: extra movement modes are always nice.
+4 natural AC.
2 intestine loops 1d4 plus attachment (ewwww).
Attach: attach on an intestine hit, after which it presumably starts draining blood.
Blood drain: 1d4 Con/round, drop off after 7 points.
Spell-like abilities: 3/day darkness, 1/day necrotic cyst; CL 3. Decent, but not at all OP.
Blindsight 60 ft.,darkvision 60 ft.: good senses.
Inescapable craving: blood.
Resistance to fire 5.
Undead traits.
+2 turn resistance.
Dex +8, Con --, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6: net +16, one non-aiblity, no penalties.
Decent racial skill list. +8 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently.

Very non-standard body type. I doubt intestine loops can wield or manipulate items very effectively. Does not speak, but understands common.

There's a solid chassis here: low enough RHD to be manageable, nice ability mods, and a great setup for a stealthy character. Attaching/grappling is less than ideal for small creatures with no racial bonuses, though. As noted, the exact mechanics of maintaining the attachment aren't very well defined, which may work in your favor. Also comes with decent movement modes, senses, and little resistances.

Class progression? I dunno, sneak attacker? Standard skillmonkeying may be hampered by lack of manipulative digits. I would recommend Hands of Man/Arms of the Naga or similar as soon as you can afford them. Lack of speech poses a problem for casting, as usual. Amulet of Freedom of Speech would help, if you have the slot for it.

I'm leaning towards LA +1, or +0. Going +0 for now, but will review further...

[Caelestion]

Oh, yuck. That image. :yuk:

[danielxcutter]

Oh, yuck. That image. :yuk:

Indeed. I literally had a knee-jerk reaction to vote for LA -0 just for that - and no I'm not actually going to go through with it, I just mean it's disgusting.

[Beni-Kujaku]

This monster... Eugh!

Have you ever wanted to be a cancer? No, let me rephrase. Have you ever dreamt of giving a cancer to everyone you touch?... That wasn't much better.

This monster is frightening. Not only is it the rotting remains of your kin that was probably killed by a necromancer, it is cunning! Even more so than the human it probably comes from. Bonuses in all three mental stats. Imagine having this pursuing you. You can't hide, it's intelligent enough to find you and can even ambush you with Hide and Move Silently (+8 in Dex also helps) so that you'll never see it coming at night. You can't outrun it, it is as fast as a human. Can you imagine this thing running behind you, and you just can't outrun it, and you know it will never tire, never give up, until you, or someone, ends between drained by it. And especially, you can't find a safe place. That thing can swim and climb as fast as it can run. Nightmarish.

Two interesting natural attacks with Con damage and a poorly written ability that may mean it grapples without check and onto any size, which is incredible, or just that it loses its Dexterity bonus to AC everytime it attacks, which is pretty bad.

But even without that, the skulking cyst has hands, or at least the body that it controls has hands, so it can wield weapons, so that's great.

Really, I see nothing to hate here (except -2 BAB, but with so few RHD that's only a minor drawback). Or, you know, everything to hate, since this is one of the most horrific monsters in D&D and I really don't want to fight it.

I vote LA+1, maybe even +2 if you count as grappling when attached to a creature Medium or less.


Very non-standard body type. I doubt intestine loops can wield or manipulate items very effectively. Does not speak, but understands common.Standard skillmonkeying may be hampered by lack of manipulative digits.

It has hands (or at least one), it even uses them to crawl on the picture. How it can crawl with a 30ft speed, though, is beyond me.

Also, Face: 5' is especially hilarious here, since its face is literally 5' large.

And for the next book, why not the Monster Manual II ? If I'm not mistaken, we jumped from the first to the 3rd, which doesn't make much sense.

[Batcathat]

It has hands (or at least one), it even uses them to crawl on the picture. How it can crawl with a 30ft speed, though, is beyond me.

It also have like... half a foot, I think. I imagine it moves by the foot basically flapping nonstop and the arm grabbing/pushing to control where it's going. Sort of like a motorboat, with the foot as the propeller and the hand as the rudder. The sound alone should probably induce some sort of deliberating nausea (which goes nicely with the apperance. Yeesh. :smalleek:) .

[Thurbane]

It has hands (or at least one), it even uses them to crawl on the picture. How it can crawl with a 30ft speed, though, is beyond me.

"The horrible creature walking into view is a mass of free-roaming intestines, flaccid organs, and a few odd rib bones. Dragging behind it like a dead weight is a lolling, maggot-ridden humanoid head."

"Though often cloaked in the detritus of a previous victim, the skulking cyst’s true 'heart' is a 1-foot-diameter spherical sac that contains fluid and semisolid necrotic flesh, which slowly undulates as if in a mockery of breath."

Bolding mine.

I kind of get the impression the creature itself is just a ball of innards, flesh and such: the ribs, hand and head seem to be non-functional remains of the creature it spawned out of. That's my take, at least, it's certainly open to interpretation.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if he's friends with the intenstines-Cthulhu guy from Underdark? :smalltongue:

https://i.imgur.com/ZIQrCR8.jpg

[Troacctid]

And for the next book, why not the Monster Manual II ? If I'm not mistaken, we jumped from the first to the 3rd, which doesn't make much sense.
It makes sense once you factor in that MM2 is 3.0 material. I think it's logical to do the 3.5 content first and then swing back around to the unupdated 3.0 stuff later. I like doing MM4 next.

I agree with the conservative +1 here. This is just better than a lot of other undead in its HD range. It shouldn't have any trouble keeping up with an ECL 5 party. Net +20? That's kind of nonsense right there.

[danielxcutter]

You know, I was kinda expecting these to be smaller. Size as a mechanic is poorly defined(look at the MM drawing for golems, both of which are technically Large), but it's weird that a Cyst spawned from a halfling is going to be the same size as one spawned from a half-ogre, for example.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In retrospect, it's amazing we didn't use "Better LA'd Than Never" before now.



True - the fact it comes with a 2 Int may also make bull more likely than Minotaur.
Since when does the intelligence of an undead have anything to do with its skull's former intelligence? There are plenty of undead templates which outright set specific mental ability scores—specific undead like the skirr are no different.

(I think it is a bull, but I also think it's bad practice to only argue against bad arguments when they're made by people you disagree with.)



After a truck load bandages fell in.
Yeah, the bandages mark out the Skirr as an obviously artificial undead. Or at least the result of natural necromantic energies animating an artificial thing made out of bones, mummy-bandages, and other undead-y things.



Very non-standard body type. I doubt intestine loops can wield or manipulate items very effectively.
The image does include something that looks like a hand, but it doesn't have any kind of arm behind it, so I can't see it being useful for much beyond obscene gestures even if the cyst can control it like a normal hand.



You know, I was kinda expecting these to be smaller. Size as a mechanic is poorly defined(look at the MM drawing for golems, both of which are technically Large), but it's weird that a Cyst spawned from a halfling is going to be the same size as one spawned from a half-ogre, for example.
There are a lot of things like that. Most things that are created from humanoid creatures and aren't mechanically represented as templates (and there's a lot of those) default to Medium, even though there are both larger and smaller humanoids.

[danielxcutter]

Also anything killed with negative levels turn into Medium-sized wights which gets ridiculous fast when you think about it for more than ten seconds.

[Tzardok]

Also anything killed with negative levels turn into Medium-sized wights which gets ridiculous fast when you think about it for more than ten seconds.

I think there's a wight template in this book to ameliorate that piece of missing realism.

Incidentally, I think I agree with +1.

[danielxcutter]

I think there's a wight template in this book to ameliorate that piece of missing realism.

Incidentally, I think I agree with +1.

No, don’t think so. There’s a stronger version of a wight but that’s about it.

[Lilapop]

I think there's a wight template in this book to ameliorate that piece of missing realism.

For some reason, only the ghost brute, mummified and umbral templates were ported in LM, while the spectral template was updated in Dragons of Faerun of all places. Wight and wraith templates seem to remain in Savage Species (unless the monster index is broken or incomplete).



If this thing had hands, it'd be a nice skillmonkey and probably worth more than four rogue levels. Without weapon usage though, I'm not too sure. How important is level progression for warlocks and the like? Are they like casters, who shalt not forsake 9ths, or could four levels be compensated with 3/day darkness and the really good bonuses to dex and cha?

[Metastachydium]

If this thing had hands, it'd be a nice skillmonkey and probably worth more than four rogue levels. Without weapon usage though, I'm not too sure. How important is level progression for warlocks and the like? Are they like casters, who shalt not forsake 9ths, or could four levels be compensated with 3/day darkness and the really good bonuses to dex and cha?

Absolutely not. At level 5 warlocks have 3d6 points worth of eldritch blast, Deceive Item and they are getting their lesser invocations (some of which are really good) next level.

[liquidformat]

For some reason, only the ghost brute, mummified and umbral templates were ported in LM, while the spectral template was updated in Dragons of Faerun of all places. Wight and wraith templates seem to remain in Savage Species (unless the monster index is broken or incomplete).



If this thing had hands, it'd be a nice skillmonkey and probably worth more than four rogue levels. Without weapon usage though, I'm not too sure. How important is level progression for warlocks and the like? Are they like casters, who shalt not forsake 9ths, or could four levels be compensated with 3/day darkness and the really good bonuses to dex and cha?

There is gravetouched ghoul template in this book too.


Indeed. I literally had a knee-jerk reaction to vote for LA -0 just for that - and no I'm not actually going to go through with it, I just mean it's disgusting.

It has no knees to jerk...


I would recommend Hands of Man/Arms of the Naga or similar as soon as you can afford them.

AFB but if I remember correctly hands of man only works with claws so it isn't viable here.

Its hard to say if this thing has hands or feet, it is one of those screwy ones where the descriptive text doesn't match the picture. I think in the past we have ruled in favor of ignoring picture and going with text but can't specifically remember.

If we go purely on text then this has neither hands nor feet which begs the question how it moves, I imagine mass of wriggling slithering intestines surging forth. Anyways since text does agree that it has a head even if it is just a rotting head being dragged behind it, we should be safe getting all the head related item slots and might be able to substitute ear rings for standard rings and probably a neck slot too, besides that maybe a belt slot, and a body slot but that is probably it on the slots so you are missing around half the item slots which sucks.

Over all it is a pretty good package, I think +16 net ability mods is just where you want to be for 4 rhd though no con score should be penalized, +4 NA is pretty good for four rhd, so are the skill bonuses, Undead traits are pretty nice, and while undead RHD suck 4 isn't too hard to swallow. Down sides are can't speak, no con mod, low hp (this is really going to be a glass cannon if you are going rogue with d6 hd and not much better if you are going swordsage with d8), missing half your item slots, and 4 rhd.

I am thinking best build might be something like Zhentarim Soldier Dirty fighter thug 3/unarmed Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 11 to keep your hp high with Daring Outlaw to increase your sneak attack, taking Martial Study (any shadow hand maneuver) gives us hide skill to all classes, and I think there are a couple other ways to get that too.

All and all I think given that there are definite downsides to this thing like loosing half your item slots +0 LA is reasonable.

[Efrate]

+0 Leaning towards -0. No speech, questionable item slots and questionable ability to manipulate objects. Difficult to see if it can use weapons or just its natural attacks. Undead meldshaper maybe but thats a rules mess. SLAs are nice but not enough to carry it. A lot of barriers to entry for a PC.

[Remuko]

In retrospect, it's amazing we didn't use "Better LA'd Than Never" before now.

honestly though, because of the pun, it actually gets funnier the longer we put it off, because it just keeps getting later.

As for this...thing were rating. I'm still unsure where I fall on it. Its weird.


+0 Leaning towards -0. No speech, questionable item slots and questionable ability to manipulate objects. Difficult to see if it can use weapons or just its natural attacks. Undead meldshaper maybe but thats a rules mess. SLAs are nice but not enough to carry it. A lot of barriers to entry for a PC.

yeah this is where I'm leaning atm too.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It has no knees to jerk...
I have no knees and I must jerk.

...I really wish you had picked any other verb, but here we are.



AFB but if I remember correctly hands of man only works with claws so it isn't viable here.
Nope!

Any creature may wear them, provided the creature has tentacles or paws over which to slip them.
By RAW, claws are only Gloves-of-Man-compatible if they're set into paws. Or tentacles, I guess. Lizards and horses are SOL.

[No brains]

I have no knees and I must jerk.

...I really wish you had picked any other verb, but here we are.

I'm glad that even though my thread title passed too soon, it can still haunt later threads like a skulking cyst.

[Thurbane]

And for the next book, why not the Monster Manual II ? If I'm not mistaken, we jumped from the first to the 3rd, which doesn't make much sense.

I was personally hoping for a smaller book next, like Miniatures Handbook or Book of Exalted deeds.

If we're going to tackle a large book, I hear MM6 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?567712) is pretty sweet. :smallbiggrin:

[liquidformat]

I was personally hoping for a smaller book next, like Miniatures Handbook or Book of Exalted deeds.

If we're going to tackle a large book, I hear MM6 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?567712) is pretty sweet. :smallbiggrin:

I am still partial to the Unique abilities in DMGII there are only 20 of them they are all templates and right now some of them have some pretty stupid LA like +12 for Unearthly beauty. A lot of the Unique abilities would be pretty cool and fun if they didn't have so much LA.

[Thurbane]

I am still partial to the Unique abilities in DMGII there are only 20 of them they are all templates and right now some of them have some pretty stupid LA like +12 for Unearthly beauty. A lot of the Unique abilities would be pretty cool and fun if they didn't have so much LA.

Would 100% support this - I love those "pseudo templates". I use them for NPCs quite a bit.

[Debatra]

It makes sense once you factor in that MM2 is 3.0 material. I think it's logical to do the 3.5 content first and then swing back around to the unupdated 3.0 stuff later. I like doing MM4 next..

Except we just did Fiend Folio before LM. I'm not sure if there was ever a particular order for books aside from MMI being first.

MMI
Tome of Battle
Heroes of Horror
MMIII
XPH
FF
LM

MMII - Beni-Kujaku
MMIV - Troacctid
DMGII "Unique Abilities" - liquidformat, Thurbane, InvisibleBison

And the various online-only monsters are a good thing to point out too.

+0 - Thurbane, liquidformat, Efrate, Remuko, InvisibleBison
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Tzardok

Four to three so far, with several of the votes also leaning in various potential directions.

[InvisibleBison]

The skulking cyst looks like LA +0 to me.

And I'll vote for the DMGII Unique Abilities for our next "book".

[liquidformat]

I know MMII was mentioned multiple times in the past and the consensus/concern seemed to be that it was going to be a hard book to rate because it was 3.0 material and also has a decent number of problematic creatures in it. Granted with the number of books we have under our belt now it wouldn't be a horrible time to dive into it.
Isn't the Fiend Folio technically a 3.5 book? It was released right before 3.5 and you could already see 3.5 influence in it.

[Tzardok]

Isn't the Fiend Folio technically a 3.5 book? It was released right before 3.5 and you could already see 3.5 influence in it.

It's half and half. 3.25, if you will.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For some reason, only the ghost brute, mummified and umbral templates were ported in LM, while the spectral template was updated in Dragons of Faerun of all places. Wight and wraith templates seem to remain in Savage Species (unless the monster index is broken or incomplete).

I believe Libris Mortis had monster classes for other undead, instead of templates, for adding onto an existing monster. Ghoul/Ghast was there (I gave serious thought to using the Ghoul monster class for a Villainous Competition entry once); I can't remember if Wight was. Probably outside the scope of this thread to rebalance those, though.

[Dalmosh]

I seldom post here, but I think MM2 would be cool too if people were up for the headache.
Some of it's entries (like Grell) were updated to 3.5 in various other sourcebooks, so it would make more sense to use these versions of them.

[unseenmage]

LA+0 for the cancer.

MM6 or DMGII for the book.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... no vote for the crawling tumor, but I vote for DMGII templates.

[Efrate]

Kind of want to knock out dmg2 then do mm6.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I am still partial to the Unique abilities in DMGII there are only 20 of them they are all templates and right now some of them have some pretty stupid LA like +12 for Unearthly beauty. A lot of the Unique abilities would be pretty cool and fun if they didn't have so much LA.
Ah yes, those silly things.

+12 LA is pretty obviously stupid for one dominate person a week and a +4 to Charisma-based checks, considering that nine levels of wizard or ten of bard/sorcerer could get you a couple dominates a day and so much more. For that matter, +1 LA for 1/week sending and 1/month shield other for a specific other person is rather steep, aside from being a really weaksauce soulmate bond.
I think it would be fun to go through those pseudotemplates and give them a proper LA-ing.



I know MMII was mentioned multiple times in the past and the consensus/concern seemed to be that it was going to be a hard book to rate because it was 3.0 material and also has a decent number of problematic creatures in it. Granted with the number of books we have under our belt now it wouldn't be a horrible time to dive into it.
Sadly, about 90% of that experience is no longer with us. Debatra does involve the thread-community pretty heavily in his ratings, and I think he's been in it a while, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle that until he's done a few books of more conventional beasties.

[danielxcutter]

Ah yes, those silly things.

+12 LA is pretty obviously stupid for one dominate person a week and a +4 to Charisma-based checks, considering that nine levels of wizard or ten of bard/sorcerer could get you a couple dominates a day and so much more. For that matter, +1 LA for 1/week sending and 1/month shield other for a specific other person is rather steep, aside from being a really weaksauce soulmate bond.
I think it would be fun to go through those pseudotemplates and give them a proper LA-ing.

So, I’m guessing the main reason for that was the same reason monster PCs got so shafted by ECL(besides drastically underestimating casting)? Softbans?


Sadly, about 90% of that experience is no longer with us. Debatra does involve the thread-community pretty heavily in his ratings, and I think he's been in it a while, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle that until he's done a few books of more conventional beasties.

Yeah some more standard monsters seems good.

[Debatra]

Both +0 and DMGII are running away with it. I won't officially call the next book until this one is about done, but it's the only thing with more than one vote so far.

MMII - Beni-Kujaku
MMIV - Troacctid
DMGII "Unique Abilities" - liquidformat, Thurbane, InvisibleBison, danielxcutter, Efrate
"MM6 or DMGII" - unseenmage

Slaughter Wight coming up.

[Debatra]

Slaughter Wight
https://i.imgur.com/eMgRrQz.jpg

Size & Type: Medium Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 18
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +14, Dex +10, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +30, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (1d8, 17-20 threat range [with Improved Critical], plus energy drain)
Skill List: Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 8
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

First thing's first. Good ol' Wight-ocalypse. Any humanoid killed by a Slaughter Wight becomes a Wight under its control after 1d4 rounds. Similar to the Bleakborn, you might get a Slaughter Wight instead if the DM is being really nice. Asterisk as per usual.

Its slam gives a single negative level, which gives it five Temporary HP that last an hour (ten on a crit) and feeds its Inescapable Craving for life force. It has Augmented Critical boosting its threat range (which apparently stacks with Improved Critical).

It's just a big beefy Wight, with a ton more RHD and precious little to show for it. See you guys tomorrow.

[Chaos Jackal]

You know, I actually wonder if 18 is a typo and they meant to write 8. Because this is just sad.

Easy -0* for the Slaughter Wight.

[Remuko]

easy -0* for the slaughter wight

[liquidformat]

-0 LA seems reasonable here

[Mystic Muse]

-0* LA no contest.

[Thurbane]

I was going to do a detailed breakdown, but 18 RHD? Yeah, lets just call it -0* and move on.

[Efrate]

18 HD. CR 8. A 10 HD to CR gap means there is precious little to show. Easy -0

[Troacctid]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.

[Lilapop]

You know, I actually wonder if 18 is a typo and they meant to write 8. Because this is just sad.

Nah. This is a bruiser facing off against level 8 players, so its gotta have more than 4 BAB and 67 hp. A CR 7 dire bear for instance has 9 and 105. Of course this breaks any mechanic based on HD, like turning, but its not like WotC have a stellar record of thinking things through.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'll mention Savage Species, more to keep it in the collective consciousness than because I expect us to go through it any time soon. (I do look forward to doing so eventually, though we may genuinely just have to skip Symbiotic Creature and possibly Tauric Creature. Or just give them an asterisk with no numeric value attached).

Speaking of asterisks, -0* for the slaughter wight. I think 5E may have had the right idea with letting undead keep their constitution scores; it means you don't have to give them HD bloat to keep them relevant, which means you don't have to tank their BAB, and also that Turn Undead might see some more use as a class feature rather than a resource or prerequisite.

[Beni-Kujaku]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.
I don't know‚ man‚ I think -0 should be much harsher than that. It has +14 Str‚ that is a lot! A level 18 monk with 16 Str will have a +16 to hit‚ that's the same as the wight without even PC stats! And the wight not only deals more damage since it can wield weapons but has energy drain to boast! Plus‚ it has d12 hd all along‚ so more HP than if it had less HD and monk levels. I'm pretty sure this can remain relevant and even outperform a straight commoner in combat! LA+0 for me! (Sorry I can't put blue text on my phone)

About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.

[liquidformat]

I'll mention Savage Species, more to keep it in the collective consciousness than because I expect us to go through it any time soon. (I do look forward to doing so eventually, though we may genuinely just have to skip Symbiotic Creature and possibly Tauric Creature. Or just give them an asterisk with no numeric value attached).

Savage Species only has something like 10-20 creatures/templates to evaluate so it would be pretty quick, but yeah between Symbiotic, Tauric, and the horribly edited Anthropomorphic animals it might be a bit of a head ache. The issue with Anthropomorphic animals is mostly that the monster entries aren't always consistent with the rules put forth for the template.


About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.

There are some that could reasonably get a +1 or maybe +2 like getting extra set of arms but others seem like maybe a straight exp cost similar to necropolitan could be reasonable, like having an extra set of legs... Others like the ability to dominate someone once a week are probably worth +1 LA until you get around level 7 ish, so amusingly a lot of them are great for LA buyoff if they had reasonable LA.

Across the whole I think it could be a really fun little group to evaluate.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say the "templates" in the DMG are simple and few enough to get over with quickly and move on to the next, so we could do something more complicated or long afterwards.

Besides, after this book we really do need a break.

[Beni-Kujaku]

There are some that could reasonably get a +1 or maybe +2 like getting extra set of arms but others seem like maybe a straight exp cost similar to necropolitan could be reasonable, like having an extra set of legs... Others like the ability to dominate someone once a week are probably worth +1 LA until you get around level 7 ish, so amusingly a lot of them are great for LA buyoff if they had reasonable LA.

Across the whole I think it could be a really fun little group to evaluate.

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

[danielxcutter]

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

I have a feeling that most of those were intentionally crippled with LA just to keep them away from players.

[liquidformat]

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

No the extra set of arms was just the very first one to come to mind and seems reasonable for +1... Yeah there are some crazy powerful ones in there and then some pretty worthless ones too.

Going back to Slaughter Wight for a moment, at 18 RHD I don't think this requires an asterisk for uncapped spawn. Sure that is an issue at lower levels but once level 9 spells are on the table it isn't an issue and I don't think the asterisk is needed.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure there are magic items you can get that can start Wightpocalypses at this level, and not just the ones that bestow negative levels by holding them.

[Prime32]

About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.Some of them would work as feats. Especially if you clarify that "caster level = character level" SLAs don't function if your caster level is below the minimum for spells of that level.

[Troacctid]

I have a feeling that most of those were intentionally crippled with LA just to keep them away from players.
Well yeah. The book kind of outright admits as much.

[danielxcutter]

Well yeah. The book kind of outright admits as much.

...Man it’s been a while since I binged the sourcebooks.

[liquidformat]

...Man it’s been a while since I binged the sourcebooks.

It's fun to do it every once in a while you sometimes find fun little goofy stuff, like the alternate summoning rules in the DMG, turns your conjurer into a pokemon master. :biggrin:

[GreatWyrmGold]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.
math brain activating

A standard wight has 4 HD; a slaughter wight has 18. Standard wights can only advance to 8 HD, but we will ignore this limitation for the purpose of our thought experiment.

The differences between basic and slaughter wights (aside from higher HD and the direct effects thereof—e.g. BaB, saves, feats) are: greater slam damage, Augmented Critical (increased threat range even before Improved Critical), no racial bonus on Move Silently checks, +12 Strength, +8 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. The advanced 14 hit dice a wight would receive only give it three additional ability points. Notably, natural armor is identical.

The slaughter wight doesn't offer much, but its slam is significantly better (equivalent to a blunt longsword instead of a lethal sap), and its ability scores are way higher. Though it's a bit worse at sneaking.



The issue with Anthropomorphic animals is mostly that the monster entries aren't always consistent with the rules put forth for the template.
Also that there's like a hundred of them. Good golly.



Some of them would work as feats. Especially if you clarify that "caster level = character level" SLAs don't function if your caster level is below the minimum for spells of that level.
Or just add a minimum character level to the feat prerequisites.

[Debatra]

Had some technical difficulties on my end. Slaughter Wight is a clear -0. Slaymate is coming up.

[Debatra]

Slaymate
https://i.imgur.com/QBnrvCx.jpg

Size & Type: Small Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 4
Speed: 20'
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +2, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +10, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d3 plus disease)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 2
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

Every Necromancer wants a Slaymate, but would any Necromancer want to be a Slaymate?

No. No they probably wouldn't. Four RHD and nothing casting-related to show for it aside from the Pale Aura you want it around for. But maybe a non-caster? Let's see.

First the Pale Aura. In a 10' radius centered on the Slaymate, any Necromancy spell prepared or cast with metamagic uses a spell slot one level lower than normal. Note that this does not have the usual caveat that these abilities normally have that limits the reduction to the spell's original level. No mention of whether that's in total or per metamagic feat.

Other than that... well, they have a supernatural disease that takes a day to incubate. 1d6 each of Con and Str damage on their bite, Charisma-based save.

Yes, that's it. Instead of being one, go adopt a child and we'll all just pretend to not know how Slaymates are created.

[Thurbane]

My very first entry to a forum comp was a Slaymate: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20502199&postcount=112

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1owfYR7UVlU/UvduSa92vYI/AAAAAAAAAB8/pKVjQO6fX4g/s1600/mark-ryden-ghost-girl.jpg

I'll do a breakdown shortly...

[danielxcutter]

Er... how much do these things even help a necromancy build? Necromancy is a surprisingly versatile school, but I’m not sure if a Slaymate’s Pale Aura is particularly impactful unless your entire build is centered around it.

[Thurbane]

Er... how much do these things even help a necromancy build? Necromancy is a surprisingly versatile school, but I’m not sure if a Slaymate’s Pale Aura is particularly impactful unless your entire build is centered around it.

Well, depending on your reading, you could slap a +0 metamagic on a spell spell, and memorize/cast it from a slot one level slower. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[danielxcutter]

Well, depending on your reading, you could slap a +0 metamagic on a spell, and memorize/cast it from a slot one level slower. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I'm not saying that Slaymates are useless. Far from it. I'm just saying that you really would have to build around necromancy to get the full milage.

How strong are necromancy spells again? Save-or-X spells are certainly useful, I guess, and casting Maximized Enervation from a 6th-level slot certainly seems nice. As does Empowered Horrid Wilting once you get 9ths.

And all this is before other cost-reducers. Hmm, if you do build around it that might actually be nice. Not sure if that counts for the Slaymate themselves, but certainly if you're bringing one around...

Oh, question. How easy would it be to turn a Slaymate back into a normal kid? Does the limit count from when the kid first died or from when you destroy the undead?

[Debatra]

The clock starts when the creature you want to resurrect dies. (Also, while not necessarily relevant since destroying a CR 2 undead should be no issue for anyone capable of casting it; I just like pointing out that the Resurrection spell says it doesn't work on undead, but the undead creature type says it does.)

[Tzardok]

I just like pointing out that the Resurrection spell says it doesn't work on undead, but the undead creature type says it does.)

Uh, no. At least in my version of the Player's Handbook, Resurrection says it works on creatures that became undead and were destroyed. It's Raise Dead that can't resurrect anything that was undead once.

[Morphic tide]

Could function as a Paladin of Tyranny. -2 BAB, Small size, but +2 Str/Dex/Wis taking a chunk out of your MADness, +5 AC from size and NA, +4 Charisma to power your Deadly Touch and Rebuke in the face of the lost levels. With an assigned 14 and +6 item of Charisma, a Paladin of Tyranny 20 would have 5x20=100 points Deadly Touch, while a Slaymate Paladin of Tyranny 16 squeezing an 18 in Charisma from their ability score array to have 28 Cha, such as matching a 16 Str, 10 Dex, and 12 Wis while redistributing from a 14 Con (which would have room left over for a +1 Str or +2 elsewhere) would have four extra Rebuke uses at the same check result and a Deadly Touch pool of 9x16=144. For holding onto Undead for their Necromancer, the Slaymate can hold 13 HD of Undead and the living no-LA one can hold 17 hd.

Base HP in this example case, giving the Paladin a +6 Con item for 20 Con total, would be 10+19d8=195.5, while the Slaymate would have 12+3d12+16d8=103.5hp. But then the Slaymate is able to use their Deadly Touch for self-healing, and has 44 extra points to do this with, so even in the scenario where both use 100 points for healing their Necromancer buddy's outright minions or dealing damage, the Slaymate is 48hp behind, while having a +5 AC advantage from Small size and Natural Armor, so you're hit by non-Touch effects 25% less of the time while being about that much less "meaty".

For saving throws, the Slaymate has immunity to the vast majority of Will and Fortitude saves, -7 to base Fortitude saves, +3 to base Will saves, and +4 to saves from Divine Grace, so they're down 15% for the few Fort saves that apply but up 20% for Reflex and 35% for remaining Will.

With damage, you're down one point of average damage the vast majority of the time, and your Bite deals 1.5+Str average damage, so it should be a wash on the regular swings. Oh, and you have one less Smite per day with them being at -4 damage and +4 attack roll, which translates to -36 damage over the course of the day from your Smites, but then you were probably look at Smite to Song to buff the selection of chaff Undead anyway. And you have one less Cause Disease per week at +4 DC, but this is also probably AFC fodder.

To mention spellcasting, you get one less 1st and 2nd level spells and two less 3rd and 4th level spells, but any saving throw is at +4 (in this example case) and you benefit from Pale Aura yourself, so there's a couple metamagic feats you could actually stand to use. You'd have the ability to cast a 2nd-level Echoing spell, to repeat Inflict Moderate Wounds at CL 4 for 4d8+12 against the 4d8+10 of the regular Paladin of Slaughter, for instance. Residual Magic combines hilariously with this because it lets you cast another of the same spell with Echoing, and use your CL out of the wands of your 1st-level spells. So you could be a nice smol Negative Energy generator, healing yourself and your Necromancer's minions for a spectacular total and being a useful frontliner alongside.

I'd go with LA +0, because there's plenty you can do with inbuilt metamagic reduction on a second-rate caster. Just not much useful for the minionmancy thing. Your goal is to be backup for your proper Necromancer, one way or another, and your ability scores can do a lot for your loss of levels. I just use Paladin of Tyranny because it's the most complete double-down in this niche, you could just as well go straight Cleric and perform the same cheese with a higher-level spell like Harm. Or go Dread Necromancer and have Charnel Touch ready for your more competently minion-making Necromancer buddy's minions to pick up Arcane Thesis on a higher-level spell while rocking a truly spectacular Charisma score, and they get to Arcane Thesis an Echoing Spell for hilariously absurd spam.


Er... how much do these things even help a necromancy build? Necromancy is a surprisingly versatile school, but I’m not sure if a Slaymate’s Pale Aura is particularly impactful unless your entire build is centered around it.
I mean, a build centered entirely around using -1 to metamagic is plenty useful, because you functionally lose only one spell level instead of two, and get a virtual +2 to your casting modifier with regard to bonus spells because they're effectively one level higher. In addition to, y'know, actually having +2 Wisdom. Or +4 Charisma.

[Beni-Kujaku]

How does that work on people who know their whole spell list? Can a slaymate Ur-priest 1 use this ability to cast an invisible level 2 spell?

Barring that‚ Necromancy spells generally don't really care about what metamagic is applied to them‚ and losing 4 caster levels is really bad when your primary ability focuses on spells‚ even with +2 wis and +4 cha.

If you can use this ability to cast higher level spells in lower slots‚ I agree with Morphic Tide‚ the half-casters will not see the impact on their spellcasting and this could be +0. If you can't‚ then LA-0 for me.

[danielxcutter]

How does that work on people who know their whole spell list? Can a slaymate Ur-priest 1 use this ability to cast an invisible level 2 spell?

Barring that‚ Necromancy spells generally don't really care about what metamagic is applied to them‚ and losing 4 caster levels is really bad when your primary ability focuses on spells‚ even with +2 wis and +4 cha.

If you can use this ability to cast higher level spells in lower slots‚ I agree with Morphic Tide‚ the half-casters will not see the impact on their spellcasting and this could be +0. If you can't‚ then LA-0 for me.

I mean preparing spells counts, so there's nothing stopping a cleric from prepping necromancy spells with lowered metamagic.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean preparing spells counts, so there's nothing stopping a cleric from prepping necromancy spells with lowered metamagic.

Not only with lowered metamagic‚ but preparing spells that they can't cast normally

[danielxcutter]

Not only with lowered metamagic‚ but preparing spells that they can't cast normally

Uh... probably not.

But if you actually try to build around necromancy, I can see it helping. For example, a wizard would be able to prepare a Maximized Enervation in a 6th-level slot. And that's without other reducers.

[Troacctid]

I think it's worth considering that once we give this thing an ECL, it becomes eligible to be a cohort. Are we comfortable with necromancers gaining access to a slaymate with Undead Leadership right at level 6? Because that would make me concerned. Yeah, yeah, I know, just ban leadership, but look, there are multiple top-tier caster prestige classes that either require Leadership or grant it as a bonus feat, and metamagic reduction is a really dangerous mechanic to be playing around with. We give the devs crap for missing on incantatrix, but are we about to make the same mistake? Tread carefully, is all I'm saying.

[Thurbane]

If it only works for prepared spells, Dread Necro + Arcane Preparation works.

[Debatra]

If it only works for prepared spells, Dread Necro + Arcane Preparation works.

Prepared or cast within the aura. Spontaneous casters are covered.

[danielxcutter]

I think it’s obviously more useful if you focus on necromancy and arguably not worth the hassle the more you don’t. Though necromancy is hardly the worst school to build around. Bad to specialize in, maybe, but there’s no reason you can’t just use a lot of necromancy spells in general.

[Efrate]

Even without leadership there is no necromancy focused class that does not get or create one of these at any table I have played at. Any evil (ie most) necromamcers will adpot a kid and make one if no other option appears. Things like death master also get huge benefits with animate dead now a 1st level spell. If you are casting necromancy spells there is no reason to NOT have one.

As for the slaymate itself, +0. Good stats, great ability, and If there was a 4 level prc that offered this benefit but no casting i could see it being taken by at least some folks. Not sure on getting a leapfrog esque new set of spells with the reduction, pretty sure that does not work but if it does you get 9ths still. Also most necromancer wizards get more mileage out of lower level slots that higher ones. Energy drain is worse than metamagiced enervation, create undead, animate dead, animate dread warrior are all better than 9ths in necromancy. Horrid wilting is lackluster since even a good blast is still a blast, so most of what you want is lower level, and even lower level as a slaymate.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Slaymate
I was vaguely aware of this creature, but until the other day when I decided to check what the next LA-Reassignment target would be, I don't think I ever read what it did. It's an undead child with a punny name.
Having actually read it...I like the idea of an undead child with strange power that a necromancer exploits for their own ends. I just feel like this isn't especially powerful. It requires that you cast, specifically, a bunch of metamagick'd necromancy spells to see any real benefit from it. It seemed better when I misinterpreted it as reducing the level by one per metamagic, but...geez.

I'm trying to think of what would make a slaymate a worthwhile victim/tool for a necromancer's arsenal.
Cheaper metamagic might be enticing to a 3rd-level necromancer, but an actual master would want more. In 5e terms, imposing disadvantage on saves against necromancy spells would probably do the trick; save penalties could do the same in 3.5. Restoring spell slots might also be handy, though this wouldn't be as meaningful or notable in a fight.
Alternatively, they could be useful for creating/controlling powerful undead armies. A desecrate effect would be the standard way to do it, but far from the only way. One possibility that comes to mind would be increasing the number of undead a bonded necromancer can control (or reducing the effective HD of future undead created or something like that); getting the slaymate away from their abusive necromancer would cause a significant part of their undead army to go out of control, potentially killing the necromancer.

But enough speculating about how this monster could be more interesting.



Uh, no. At least in my version of the Player's Handbook, Resurrection says it works on creatures that became undead and where destroyed. It's Raise Dead that can't resurrect anything that was undead once.
He's not talking about re-dead, he's talking about undead who are still undead.


Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.



You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected.

(Emphasis mine, obviously)

Both the spell and the type agree that if you re-kill Count Vlad, you can use resurrection on his corpse. But while the type says you don't need to bother re-killing him first if you don't want to, the spell says you do.
If I were DMing this, I'd note that the undead type's language is a lot more clear—it says you can do this, while the spell just implicitly excludes it—and it potentially makes a better story. But the rules are still ambiguous.



One last thing: I've been thinking about running a competition like the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge or the Villainous Competition, but for monster PCs built with the level adjustments from this thread. Does that sound potentially interesting to anyone here?

[Metastachydium]

(Maybe the clause in the description of the spell means that once an undead creature is „killed”, a Resurrection spell cannot restore them to „life” (so, e.g., if your necropolitan whatever is destroyed, you can't just resurrect 'em and get your necropolitan back).)

[Beni-Kujaku]

Are we comfortable with necromancers gaining access to a slaymate with Undead Leadership right at level 6?

Are we comfortable with allowing any kind of Leadership at any table? Seriously, there are so many things that break when you have double or even dozens of actions that I don't feel it interesting to try to think around it. There's a reason we've asterisked every monster that gets unreasonable numbers of servants.



Both the spell and the type agree that if you re-kill Count Vlad, you can use resurrection on his corpse. But while the type says you don't need to bother re-killing him first if you don't want to, the spell says you do.
If I were DMing this, I'd note that the undead type's language is a lot more clear—it says you can do this, while the spell just implicitly excludes it—and it potentially makes a better story. But the rules are still ambiguous.

The soul of the subject must be free and willing to return. I'm pretty sure a soul in an undead is not free, or, even if it is, not able to express willingness to be resurrected. And even if it could, the spell requires 10 minutes of continued touching the body, or one part of the body. Good luck doing that on a raging undead.

[Tzardok]

He's not talking about re-dead, he's talking about undead who are still undead.

(Emphasis mine, obviously)

Both the spell and the type agree that if you re-kill Count Vlad, you can use resurrection on his corpse. But while the type says you don't need to bother re-killing him first if you don't want to, the spell says you do.
If I were DMing this, I'd note that the undead type's language is a lot more clear—it says you can do this, while the spell just implicitly excludes it—and it potentially makes a better story. But the rules are still ambiguous.


But Resurrection can only target a dead creature - not an undead, a dead. So the target needs to be re-dead anyway before it can be resurrected. To me it looks like what the undead type says is a confusing version of what Resurrection's text says (and the German translation of the Monster Manual, which is where I look up things first, seems to have reduced the ambiguity here).

[Remuko]

Slaymate has double its CR in HD. easy -0 IMO.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I don't think Leadership is that commonly allowed, and it breaks party balance faster than you can say "OP".

[GreatWyrmGold]

(Maybe the clause in the description of the spell means that once an undead creature is „killed”, a Resurrection spell cannot restore them to „life” (so, e.g., if your necropolitan whatever is destroyed, you can't just resurrect 'em and get your necropolitan back).)
That's one possibility, but it's not clear. The rules are still ambiguous.



Are we comfortable with allowing any kind of Leadership at any table? Seriously, there are so many things that break when you have double or even dozens of actions that I don't feel it interesting to try to think around it. There's a reason we've asterisked every monster that gets unreasonable numbers of servants.
I think this is a good point. There are a lot of stupid things you can do with Leadership; getting a single level of metamagic reduction on a single school of magic is pretty low on that list.

[danielxcutter]

Isn't Wild Cohort about the only Leadership-esque feat that's remotely balanced?

Actually, how imbalanced are the other Cohort feats?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One last thing: I've been thinking about running a competition like the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge or the Villainous Competition, but for monster PCs built with the level adjustments from this thread. Does that sound potentially interesting to anyone here?

Sounds fun to me, though I've been lacking in inspiration for comp. builds recently, so I can't guarantee entering. Would you include the Negative LA thread, or just the 'main' ones?

[Lapak]

One last thing: I've been thinking about running a competition like the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge or the Villainous Competition, but for monster PCs built with the level adjustments from this thread. Does that sound potentially interesting to anyone here?


Sounds fun to me, though I've been lacking in inspiration for comp. builds recently, so I can't guarantee entering. Would you include the Negative LA thread, or just the 'main' ones?

I'd like to second that this sounds like a fun change of pace from the standard Iron Chef threads.

[Thurbane]

OK, got side-tracked with other stuff yesterday, let's do this.

Slaymate.


Small Undead
4 RHD (d12 hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
20 ft speed.
+4 natural AC.
Bite 1d4 + pale wasting.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Undead pale aura: the only thing that makes this creature interesting: a -1 metamagic reducer for all necromancy spells in a 10 foot radius.
Pale wasting: like most diseases, almost zero use un combat.
Undead traits.
Str +2, Dex +2, Con --, Wis +2, Cha +4: net +10, one non-ability, no penalties.
Small but useful racial skill list.

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Should be no gear or class progression issues, other than those that come with being undead.

I think this is a perfectly playable chassis. Not amazing, but playable. Decent chassis for a stealth/sneak attack/skill monkey build. Or, you could go Dread Necro, and still access 9ths, depending on how your table rules Versatile Spellcaster and set list casters. In fact, the chassis is pretty decent for almost anything, bar a full caster hoping to get 9ths, or a build that relies on being medium or larger. The 20 ft speed is annoying, but no moreso than on a Halfling or Gnome, IMHO.

And, of course, the elephant in the room: -1 metamagic reducer for necromancy spells, 10 ft radius. It's good. Very good. Is it worth a star? I'm giving one, just in case.

LA +0* from me.

If I were playing one, I'd try for some kind of Ur-Priest Skillmonkey build - once I'd dipped Ur-Priest, I'd try to grab caster progressing PrCs with 4 skill points/level or more. Or Maybe an Archivist build, cherry pick necro spells from a bunch of class lists, and just deal with not getting 9ths.


One last thing: I've been thinking about running a competition like the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge or the Villainous Competition, but for monster PCs built with the level adjustments from this thread. Does that sound potentially interesting to anyone here?

100% yes! :smallsmile:

[Lans]

+0 if you're willing to be a team player

[Morphic tide]

...In case it wasn't obvious, my statement about the spell levels is that a metamagic-focused build is rarely going to care about a normal build's top-level spell, especially if they're using Residual Magic to get an extra dip on the reduced metamagic promoting the use of the top-level slot for metamagic. Even without the insanity of doing that to Echoing Spell, it still means doubling your Empower/Maximize instances on your spam of choice.

[danielxcutter]

...How good does metamagic play with necromancy, actually? Empower and Maximize for Enervation, Heighten for Save-or-X spells, Twin for, well, it's good for most things anyways, and is that it? I honestly don't know that much about necromancy spells.

[Morphic tide]

...How good does metamagic play with necromancy, actually? Empower and Maximize for Enervation, Heighten for Save-or-X spells, Twin for, well, it's good for most things anyways, and is that it? I honestly don't know that much about necromancy spells.

Extend and Widen have a few uses, particularly at lower levels and in cases where you aren't killing everything in the fight. An Extended Enervate will inflict permanent negative levels, for instance, and there's a few one-rounders that become much more attractive save-or-suck actions when you get a second. Also Maximize Poison for hilarious amounts of Con damage. 5 hp/hd on the spot, taking a huge chunk out of most things. Also Retributive Spell for a weird +1, makes a single-target spell into an Immediate Action to cast on someone who hit you in melee.

Echoing Spell is, as mentioned, nuts, lets you cast a bunch more Animate Deads from a single slot.

[Debatra]

Reach Animate Dead is deceptively-useful for mid-combat minionmancy. Though you'll probably prefer either a Rod or a level of Archmage/Heirophant over taking the actual feat. I had a dungeon boss pull that trick once.

[danielxcutter]

Shame that undead minionmancy drops off sharply at higher levels, really. Preventing PCs from getting it is one thing, making it useless for BBEGs is another really. Because wow, the Create Greater Undead list sucks.

[Thurbane]

Song of the Dead feat from Dragon Compendium is a +1 metamagic feat that alters mind-affecting spells so that they can affect intelligent (only). It also changes the spell school to Necromancy. The wording of the feat implies that it only works prepared spells, but I think that was fixed in errata.

So, oddly enough, a Slaymate might be a nice companion for a Beguiler or Enchanter.

[Lilapop]

Having one of these stick around as a companion to your necromancer might be better than a 4 HD, CR4 frontliner.

But as a PC in its own right, I'd rather use one of my Y+1/day of spell level X for the metamagic spell, AND still have all my Z+1/day of SL X-1 left, AND have access to SL X+1 AND SL X+2 in the first place, than to use one of my Z/day, have "all" my Y/day of SL X, and no access to SL X+1 or SL X+2. All of this at a CL difference of 4. That metamagic reduction is so not worth dropping four levels of spellcasting progression.

And on any other role (carrying the bonus for your spellcaster buddy - keep in mind the two of you will have to stay close together, which isn't really guaranteed when you're playing different roles), the other bonuses are either too unfocused to be a relevant boon to any normal build, and MAD builds would rather reduce MADness, making the bonuses less valuable in the process.

To summarize, the slaymate's features are way worse than four class levels worth of class features. -0.



I do enjoy the brat having a diseased bite though. Children are dis-gus-täng.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sounds fun to me, though I've been lacking in inspiration for comp. builds recently, so I can't guarantee entering. Would you include the Negative LA thread, or just the 'main' ones?
Probably just the main one; I'm pretty sure there are at least three negative LA threads, only one of which is active, and none of which have even finished the Monster Manual. If we decide to run more than one, maybe we can experiment with negative LA's and see how that works out.


I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

Monster Mash
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

Deadlines

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

[list] All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


Acknowledgments
Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.

[Debatra]

The votes so far:

+0* (Pale Aura) - Thurbane
+0 - Morphic tide, Lans, Tzardok, Lapak, Efrate
-0 - Beni-Kujaku, Remuko, Lilapop

[Tzardok]

I'll add my vote to +0.

[Lapak]

I think there's enough of an argument for +0; it can be a decent build on its own and in the right party it's a small but definite advantage, which tips the scales for me. FWIW, Morphic tide's breakdown in particular was convincing.

[Efrate]

+0 from me as well.

Minionmancy can keep up, bone creatures and animate dread warrior are useful at all levels. Both allow you to essentially add whatever you kill as permanent minions with no loss of abilities. Kill a 15th level cleric? Animate dread warrior and its now your slave. No limits on number controlled. No check for control.

And incoporeal undead maintain usefulness quite late. Many thinga just cannot deal with it.

[danielxcutter]

+0 from me as well.

Minionmancy can keep up, bone creatures and animate dread warrior are useful at all levels. Both allow you to essentially add whatever you kill as permanent minions with no loss of abilities. Kill a 15th level cleric? Animate dread warrior and its now your slave. No limits on number controlled. No check for control.

And incoporeal undead maintain usefulness quite late. Many thinga just cannot deal with it.

You get spells four levels later. I’m not seeing how any better this is using necromancy itself.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Probably just the main one; I'm pretty sure there are at least three negative LA threads, only one of which is active, and none of which have even finished the Monster Manual. If we decide to run more than one, maybe we can experiment with negative LA's and see how that works out.


I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

Monster Mash
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

Deadlines

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

[list] All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


Acknowledgments
Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.

There are four, actually: the three inactive ones, including one that didn't reach the 2-page treshold, and mine (by the way, check it out (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629100-Negative-LA-Assignment-Resurrection-but-no-diamond-here)! The more comments, the merrier!), with multiple methods to negatively adjust levels. If we are to use them as materials, then we will have to choose a preferred method (this part is easy, RHD reduction is the one method that has the slightest chance of being viable in a serious optimization contest), and to harmonize the threads (with the exception of the animated objects, the negative LA threads have never covered monsters that were already covered in previous negative LA threads, leading to some of them only getting a rating with a questionable method). But I agree that the main restriction is the number of creatures reviewed as of now. Having such a contest would be a good test of the validity of my, GWG's and Martixy's ratings: if everybody chooses -0 monsters as their character, that's a good sign that we should put them at higher RHD.


For the rules for Monster Mash:

All in all, pretty good and simple sets of rules. Why 32 point-buy when most other competitions play with 30 points? Also, you mentioned Leadership banned twice (I agree it probably deserves it ^^) and might consider banning the beholder mage prestige class, which can break the game really easily too, even if not at the same level as Illithid Savant. Finally, mention the asterisks. How do you plan on handling them. I think something on the line of "Abilities from the monster specifically noted as warranting the asterisk in the thread post are just considered null and non-existent. If the monster is asterisked, but with no single ability mentioned, ask the chair what ability was meant."
Finally, add a paragraph on the secret ingredient. I know you want to let people as free as possible, but limitations really do breed creativity.

[Morphic tide]

Having one of these stick around as a companion to your necromancer might be better than a 4 HD, CR4 frontliner.

But as a PC in its own right, I'd rather use one of my Y+1/day of spell level X for the metamagic spell, AND still have all my Z+1/day of SL X-1 left, AND have access to SL X+1 AND SL X+2 in the first place, than to use one of my Z/day, have "all" my Y/day of SL X, and no access to SL X+1 or SL X+2. All of this at a CL difference of 4. That metamagic reduction is so not worth dropping four levels of spellcasting progression.

And on any other role (carrying the bonus for your spellcaster buddy - keep in mind the two of you will have to stay close together, which isn't really guaranteed when you're playing different roles), the other bonuses are either too unfocused to be a relevant boon to any normal build, and MAD builds would rather reduce MADness, making the bonuses less valuable in the process.

To summarize, the slaymate's features are way worse than four class levels worth of class features. -0.
+2 to four scores, +4 Cha, and a nonability? Where are you getting MAD being a big problem, your 14s in Str, Dex, and Wis are 16s, and your 16s are 18s. You could actually afford Str 18/Dex 14/Wis 14/Cha 20 on 28 point-buy if you want to be a frontline-focused Paladin. On the Elite Array, you can have 17 Str, 18 Cha, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, and 10 Int. Or even go Int 13/Wis 12 for access some further bodygard functions while still having spellcasting the first few levels, though being Small cuts into most of them.

Look at my example case earlier. Can you tell me how that is LA -0? When you have a flat +5 AC, drop a +6 Con item (unless it's a Belt of Magnificence for your MADhouse) to invest in making up for your ~25% less health, under the assumption you self-heal with just your advantage on Deadly Touch instead of calling the whole thing a personal HP bank, and damage being a wash from your bonus attack?

[Thurbane]

I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

Monster Mash
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

Deadlines

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
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For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

[list] All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


Acknowledgments
Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.

Looks good to me, at a glance. :smallsmile:

[GreatWyrmGold]

All in all, pretty good and simple sets of rules. Why 32 point-buy when most other competitions play with 30 points?
Because the thread I copied it from said 32 points. Heck if I remember which that was (it was one of the Iron Chef ones, but there's more than a hundred of those).


Also, you mentioned Leadership banned twice (I agree it probably deserves it ^^)
That's because I edited it good.


and might consider banning the beholder mage prestige class, which can break the game really easily too, even if not at the same level as Illithid Savant.
Ooh. Yeah, didn't think of that.


Finally, mention the asterisks. How do you plan on handling them. I think something on the line of "Abilities from the monster specifically noted as warranting the asterisk in the thread post are just considered null and non-existent. If the monster is asterisked, but with no single ability mentioned, ask the chair what ability was meant."
I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about that? Unless I typed it, then decided to replace it but forgot to type the new bit, because I edited it good?
Look, those tables in the middle make proofreading a chore in a text editor.


Finally, add a paragraph on the secret ingredient. I know you want to let people as free as possible, but limitations really do breed creativity.
Well, yeah. But I don't have a theme in mind, and was considering just not having on the first round. (It's something I'd ask the thread about once I actually had a properly proofed set of rules.)



...drop a +6 Con item (unless it's a Belt of Magnificence for your MADhouse) to invest in making up for your ~25% less health...
Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?

[Debatra]

Okay guys, take it to its own thread.

[Lapak]

Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?I think what they're getting at is yes, you have less health, but since you can't use the money the way a 'normal' tank would on a +6 CON item (which makes up part of that difference,) spend it in some other way that benefits your tankiness - a miss chance, punch up your regular or touch AC beyond what the normal tank would invest in, snag a Ring of Evasion, etc.

[Morphic tide]

Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?
Yes, but it's not a farce of a comparison to make, since you have Natural Armor taking some of the edge off and I'm attributing the Deadly Touch advantage as HP in the tank. Scrounging ~40 hp from those mechanics with full hit dice isn't that hard, you just need 2hp/hd from somewhere to get it nearly perfectly evened out.

[danielxcutter]

And getting 2 HP/HD is easy? Besides, it’s not like a normal character couldn’t.

[Troacctid]

And getting 2 HP/HD is easy?
I mean, it kind of is, yeah? Just take Improved Toughness and get a shroud companion spirit. You can throw in an amulet of tears for good measure if you want.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it kind of is, yeah? Just take Improved Toughness and get a shroud companion spirit. You can throw in an amulet of tears for good measure if you want.

Yeah, but normal PCs can do that anyways.

Also what’s a shroud companion spirit again?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay guys, take it to its own thread.
Alright, I guess the competition has officially started? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632644)

[Troacctid]

Yeah, but normal PCs can do that anyways.

Also what’s a shroud companion spirit again?
Anyone can pay gold and xp to do a ritual to create one. At the second tier (costs 1,000 xp and 1,050 gp per person), it grants all members of the party who've bought into it a continuous gentle repose effect and the ability to use false life (Sp) 1/day, as well as one of four general benefit packages (communication, spell storage, healing, or transference).

[Debatra]

Slaymate is +0. Spectral Lyrist coming up.

[Debatra]

Spectral Lyrist
https://i.imgur.com/X4vu0sh.jpg

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 6
Speed: Fly 60' (Good)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6 - Net +16, no penalties
Natural Armor: 5 (+Cha to Deflection)
Natural Weapons: Incorporeal Touch (1d6 Charisma Drain)
Skill List: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Perform (Sing), Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, "plus one other language common to Humanoids in its environment, such as Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, or Orc")
CR: 4
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Uncapped Charisma Boosting)

Whenever a Spectral Lyrist drains a target's Charisma, they get five temporary HP and a single temporary point of Charisma (each of which last an hour). While it's a rare ability, we've asterisked things like this before because the lack of a cap makes it potentially abusable. (Such as the Shambling Mound.) Carve out the Charisma boosting but leave the rest untouched.

Speaking of the rest, that Charisma Drain isn't automatic. It only works on living creatures, and allows a Charisma-based Fortitude save to avoid it. This is also how it satisfies its Inescapable Craving for Charisma.

Alter Appearance lets it do as the name implies once per round as a free action. It can appear as any Medium Humanoid, gaining the standard +10 to Disguise checks those abilities tend to give. Anyone that fails to beat their Disguise check doesn't realize the Lyrist is incorporeal "until an attack passes harmlessly through the [Spectral Lyrist]". Presumably walking through walls would also give it away.

Finally, it can use Bardic Music six times per day to Fascinate and Suggest, just as a Bard can. Note that this is not explicitly based on its HD, so advancing it to seven won't actually get it another Music use. It also doesn't explicitly stack with normal Bardic Music; so, for example, a Spectral Lyrist 6/Bard 1 most likely can't Inspire Competence.

[danielxcutter]

This is… Well, it’s more utility than a Shadow I guess?

[Morphic tide]

They are actual proper Bardic Music uses, so you qualify for Dirgesinger, Stormsinger, Seeker of the Song, and any other Bard PRCs that ask for just "Bardic Music" uses rather than Inspire Courage in particular, and will count as uses should you take levels of Bard, so you're only behind on what you use it for rather than how many times you can use it. The Charisma drain qualifies you for Necrotic Reserve, which gives you a buffer of one instance of damage before being destroyed.

In exchange for being behind two spell levels (this is The Big Ouch) +1 Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness coming on at 15, and never getting Inspire Heroics or Mass Suggestion, you have all the wonders of being an Incorporeal Undead, +5 Natural Armor in the circumstance that comes up, Charisma to Deflection, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma, a Touch attack ability drain that goes after one of the most common dump stats. Who decidedly lacks the face-role interrupting matter of looking Undead, and in fact gets +10 to Disguise checks to further avoid suspicion when taking advantage of being Incorporeal to be where they shouldn't.

I reiterate, you are an Incorporeal Undead. By rule your Deflection bonus and Concentration are Charisma based. You have two nonabilities that are secondary stats to many Bards in the first place, with Constitution's role being almost always covered by just how much of a pain you are to damage by being Incorporeal. You could also technically go Swordsage and/or Warblade for Tiger Claw and squeeze for attacks to maximize Charisma damage iterations and try to Charisma-drain anything fighting you into a coma, but then you need something else going on to use your Charisma modifier. Possibly a Tashalatora setup with a few Wilder levels to have Power dump?

...Actually, can you Full Attack with these Touch Attach effects or duplicate them with the Tiger Claw Maneuvers? Because 6 levels is nasty stuff for pretty much any progression but ToB, and you're Incorporeal so you're rather harshly penalized on the normal value proposition. This seems to be questionable in the common space of "Where Do You Go?" because there's not quite anything that you smoothly enter afterwards.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Most prestige classes that improve bardic music say that the levels stack with bard levels to determine the number of uses. What happens if you have no bard level?

[Troacctid]

The obvious answer to "Where do you go?" is "Into a prestige class." My first thought would be to take a level of warrior skald and then go into war chanter. Another option is, of course, ur-priest, making use of that +4 Wisdom. A slightly late entry into sublime chord is viable too—if this is +0 LA, then five levels of wizard (or, even better, sha'ir) gets you there only a level behind a normal bard. Oh, and how about rogue? You can sneak attack with your Charisma drain touch! That seems very nice. Or maybe marshal, or binder...honestly, with these ability mods, I think you have a lot of potential paths.

We can also compare it to other incorporeal undead. Shadows have 3 HD and ended up with +3 LA in spite of having substantially worse stats. Allips were +3 as well, with 4 HD—again, worse stats. Wraiths, with 5 HD, are probably the closest comparison, and they ended up with +2 LA. I think the spectral lyrist is essentially the same as or better than the wraith for our purposes, and I would be loath to put it at a lower ECL, which means it has to be at least +1; however, since it's clearly stronger than the ECL 7 wraith (IMO) and very close to the ECL 8 spectre, I think the best place for it is ECL 8, which means LA +2*.

[Morphic tide]

Yeah, I wasn't sure about the precedent on Incorporeal Undead, and don't know enough of the interactions to pin down a specific build. I'll go along with LA +2*, with the star being specifically the boost on the Charisma drain.

[Remuko]

I'm going -0*. CR is 2 less than HD. I don't think this is good enough to be equal to 6 class levels, and its CR agrees. I think this is my new feelings on all things. I'm not expecting to ever think something with a CR significantly lower than its HD is going to be anything above +0.

[Morphic tide]

I'm going -0*. CR is 2 less than HD. I don't think this is good enough to be equal to 6 class levels, and its CR agrees. I think this is my new feelings on all things. I'm not expecting to ever think something with a CR significantly lower than its HD is going to be anything above +0.
You get to add PC ability scores and items to the statblock even before any class features, and you lose no uses of Bardic Music if you decide to go Bard with a two-spell-level detriment or take advantage of that to enter PRCs meant for Bards without the class levels. The first means +3-4 to the save DCs and AC right off the bat, the second eventually becomes another +3, and anything Charisma-based your class levels are doing gets a +3 over a standard character. Wisdom's a +4, so Wis-based classes aren't out of the question, so you could go Swordsage and get another pile of armor class.

Without LA, you have the ability scores to enter Sublime Chord by Wizard and keep the Wizard spells functioning just fine. Though you can only fit Sublime Chord 9, as you have to have 5 levels of Wizard to get 3rd level spells that way, it's going from a 6rhd monster with no innate spellcasting to 9th level spells. You can also go Sublime Chord 2/Stormsinger 7, still getting 9th level spells, but having 8 additional uses of Bardic Music instead of 4, and trade Song of Timelessness for all the Stormsong effects up to Winter's Ballad. With LA +2, you still end up reaching 8th level spells.

[Troacctid]

Also, the CR isn't 2 lower than HD. Giving a monster PC stats increases the CR, per the monster rules.

[Thurbane]

From a DM/encounter perspective, I don't know why the book decided we needed two music-themed undead (Crypt Chanter, Spectral Lyrist). BTW, the goofy look on the SL illustration always make me chuckle. Anyhow...

Spectral Lyrist


Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
6 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
Fly 60 ft good.
Cha bonus as deflection to AC.
Incorporeal touch attack 1d6 Cha drain. Fort save to avoid. This could easily take cruiser types out with a few hits, but they will generally have high Fort saves. You get 5 temp HP and 1 temp Cha per drain.
Bardic music: 6 day, fascinate and suggestion. This is a great way to meet PrC reqs. Also, Lyric Spell feat means you can use this to fuel spell slots.
Alter appearance: essentially free action, at will disguise self. Humanoid disguises only.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Incorporeal traits: the usual defensive and movement benefits; and the drawbacks interacting with gear, and the world in general.
Inescapable craving: needs to drain Cha. Heck, animals have Cha, so not too difficult.
Undead traits.
Str --, Dex +4, Cha --, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6: net +16, two non-abilities. Did we ever resolve how creatures with no Str score interact with things like ghost-touch gear?
Decent racial skills, focused on perception and "face" skills.

Incorporeal humanoid in form, and can speak. I'm not going to rehash my usual comments on being incorporeal: suffice to say it comes with significant benefits, and drawbacks.

Progression wise, I'd go Bard/Sublime Chord myself, if I wanted 9th level spells. It would be a shame to waste that innate Bardic Music. I guess you could skillmonkey, if you find a way to interact with material things.

I'm giving this LA +0*. It gets a lot of decent stuff, but 6RHD is a burden. I could be talked up to +1*.

Asterisk added for Cha boost shenanigans, which I missed entirely on first read through the stat block

[Temotei]

I'll go with +0* for the moment.

[danielxcutter]

...Hold up, the Cha drain allows a save and we're ruling away the stat pumping from it? That's... not good. Is it partial/half or negates?

[Thurbane]

...Hold up, the Cha drain allows a save and we're ruling away the stat pumping from it? That's... not good. Is it partial/half or negates?

Save negates.

Consider a bag-o-rats, though. Sure, they only have 2 Cha, but the Cha boost doesn't care about how many points you drain... and their Fort save is +2.

Also, the DC is Cha based, so the more you drain, the higher the DC becomes.

[danielxcutter]

Save negates.

Consider a bag-o-rats, though. Sure, they only have 2 Cha, but the Cha boost doesn't care about how many points you drain... and their Fort save is +2.

Also, the DC is Cha based, so the more you drain, the higher the DC becomes.

I thought we give uncapped statboosters an asterisk and cut that out of the evaluation? It’s been a while since we’ve done something like this so I don’t remember that well(last was the Shambling Mound I think?).

[Thurbane]

Now I'm even more confused. Are you saying we should take away the uncapped stat boosting, or leave it because there's a save to avoid?

I may be misunderstanding your point.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I thought we give uncapped statboosters an asterisk and cut that out of the evaluation? It’s been a while since we’ve done something like this so I don’t remember that well(last was the Shambling Mound I think?).

We do, that's why there is an asterisk here. Indeed, the charisma drain is not that good, but Fortitude save based on Charisma will almost never be really high on people, while your DC increases with your HD and your primary stat. This is not game changing by any means, but it's not the main way the spectral lyrist will act either (it being either spells or bardic music). So this will not be crippling the LA too much in my opinion. 6 RHD for incorporeality and bardic music, plus interesting stat boosts seem nice to me. I'm gonna vote LA+0*, maybe +1 if I have something to do with it except bardic music, which is a really unoptimal playstyle (most bardic music PrC assume you have bard spells on top of it, and are pretty underpowered otherwise), and Ur-Priest (which is the strongest PrC in all of D&D. If a monster has to take it to be viable, it doesn't deserve an LA)

[Efrate]

I think this can go as a +1*. Cause cows and such are cheap and you can just keep touching and things get silly. Its a decent class feature on an incorporeal undead chasis with nice stats.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think this can go as a +1*. Cause cows and such are cheap and you can just keep touching and things get silly. Its a decent class feature on an incorporeal undead chasis with nice stats.

We explicitly removed the gain of Charisma, so you can keep touching cows, but it won't give you any advantage.

[danielxcutter]

We do, that's why there is an asterisk here. Indeed, the charisma drain is not that good, but Fortitude save based on Charisma will almost never be really high on people, while your DC increases with your HD and your primary stat. This is not game changing by any means, but it's not the main way the spectral lyrist will act either (it being either spells or bardic music). So this will not be crippling the LA too much in my opinion. 6 RHD for incorporeality and bardic music, plus interesting stat boosts seem nice to me. I'm gonna vote LA+0*, maybe +1 if I have something to do with it except bardic music, which is a really unoptimal playstyle (most bardic music PrC assume you have bard spells on top of it, and are pretty underpowered otherwise), and Ur-Priest (which is the strongest PrC in all of D&D. If a monster has to take it to be viable, it doesn't deserve an LA)

“Fort based on Charisma”? What’s that even supposed to mean? And racial abilities tend to scale on RHD, not total.

I mean I suppose it’s not totally impossible to jack the DC up… but without the stacking, it’s hard to make it incredibly good, especially since a) it becomes completely useless against certain enemies(forget types, Body Ward’s only a 2nd-level Cleric spell), and b) most things with low Cha tend to not depend on it(as well as have high Fort bonuses).

I guess Sublime Chord would work if you absolutely had to? But I don’t really see how much better it’d be than a normal caster, and there’s always templates for the incorporeality.

[Beni-Kujaku]

“Fort based on Charisma”? What’s that even supposed to mean? And racial abilities tend to scale on RHD, not total.

Well, I misread the entry, it's just that the DC is based on the lyrist's charisma. And about the scaling, I remember we discussed about that a bit earlier, and it is quite inconsistent. In the monster manual, it seems to be only racial hit dice, but all hit dice in the Rules Compendium (p119). Since the latter is the more recent, I abided by it.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I misread the entry, it's just that the DC is based on the lyrist's charisma. And about the scaling, I remember we discussed about that a bit earlier, and it is quite inconsistent. In the monster manual, it seems to be only racial hit dice, but all hit dice in the Rules Compendium (p119). Since the latter is the more recent, I abided by it.

One, the Rules Compendium is inconsistent as all hell, and the racial HD part contradicts literally every monster statblock printed. It's more valid than, well, traits and flaws I guess, but I've always felt most people use it because it has rulings they can cheese the heck out of it rather than how much authority it holds.

Two, I don't see anything about rolling Fort saves with Charisma:


Charisma Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a spectral lyrist's touch attack must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Charisma drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. When a spectral lyrist drains a victim's Charisma, it gains 5 temporary hit points and 1 temporary Charisma point, no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points and ability points gained in this way last for 1 up to hour.

"Charisma-based" means it scales off the user's Charisma, not the target's.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spectral Lyrist
Anyone that fails to beat their Disguise check doesn't realize the Lyrist is incorporeal "until an attack passes harmlessly through the [Spectral Lyrist]". Presumably walking through walls would also give it away.
I am amused that the designers assumed that players' first instinct would be to attack this normal-looking humanoid being. (On a related note, I presume that nonviolent physical interactions—e.g. handshakes—passing harmlessly through her would also give it away.)



Most prestige classes that improve bardic music say that the levels stack with bard levels to determine the number of uses. What happens if you have no bard level?
You have zero bard levels, so you add zero to your levels in the prestige class to figure out your effective bard level.



I'm going -0*. CR is 2 less than HD. I don't think this is good enough to be equal to 6 class levels, and its CR agrees. I think this is my new feelings on all things. I'm not expecting to ever think something with a CR significantly lower than its HD is going to be anything above +0.
I disagree; the spectral lyricist has a number of handy abilities, conspicuously including some which are more useful useful to a player than an encounter. I don't have a strong opinion on whether it needs a positive level adjustment or not, but it's not weak.



BTW, the goofy look on the SL illustration always make me chuckle.
All the more so due to her being purple.

[Debatra]

I'm going -0*. CR is 2 less than HD. I don't think this is good enough to be equal to 6 class levels, and its CR agrees. I think this is my new feelings on all things. I'm not expecting to ever think something with a CR significantly lower than its HD is going to be anything above +0.

Do keep in mind that Challenge Rating is mainly an estimation of how difficult the creature would be in a fight against a party of four. Not entirely of course, but to the point where the "CRs for Noncombat Encounters" section of the DMG outright says "They [noncombat encounters] should never have a CR higher than the party's level. As a rule, you probably don’t want to hand out a lot of experience for these kinds of encounters unless you intentionally want to run a low-combat game."

So CR probably isn't a great indicator for monsters that aren't at least somewhat combat-focused. And the Lyrist is definitely more of a Face.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I am amused that the designers assumed that players' first instinct would be to attack this normal-looking humanoid being. (On a related note, I presume that nonviolent physical interactions—e.g. handshakes—passing harmlessly through her would also give it away.)

Introverts: what do you mean handshakes are not an attack?

[Remuko]

Do keep in mind that Challenge Rating is mainly an estimation of how difficult the creature would be in a fight against a party of four. Not entirely of course, but to the point where the "CRs for Noncombat Encounters" section of the DMG outright says "They [noncombat encounters] should never have a CR higher than the party's level. As a rule, you probably don’t want to hand out a lot of experience for these kinds of encounters unless you intentionally want to run a low-combat game."

So CR probably isn't a great indicator for monsters that aren't at least somewhat combat-focused. And the Lyrist is definitely more of a Face.

yes i understand that. a lvl 4 fighter is also CR 4 (IIRC). That means #CR = #PC class levels. This thing has 6 monster class levels but is only rated as being as strong as 4 PC class levels. To me that makes it -0.

Is there a source online thats just a list of monsters by CR and HD. I'd love to look thru a list like that and eyeball it myself and see if I actually see anything that is clearly worth more HD than its CR. The things worth LA almost always have CR higher than their HD. I can't imagine anything with CR well below its RHD being anything above +0.

[Troacctid]

yes i understand that. a lvl 4 fighter is also CR 4 (IIRC). That means #CR = #PC class levels. This thing has 6 monster class levels but is only rated as being as strong as 4 PC class levels. To me that makes it -0.

Is there a source online thats just a list of monsters by CR and HD. I'd love to look thru a list like that and eyeball it myself and see if I actually see anything that is clearly worth more HD than its CR. The things worth LA almost always have CR higher than their HD. I can't imagine anything with CR well below its RHD being anything above +0.
Your memory is not quite correct here! A level 4 fighter with the standard array is only CR 3. To be CR 4, she has to use the elite array, and if you give her 32-point buy, she actually goes up to CR 5.

By the same token, a spectral lyrist with 32-point buy is CR 6, not CR 4.

[danielxcutter]

Your memory is not quite correct here! A level 4 fighter with the standard array is only CR 3. To be CR 4, she has to use the elite array, and if you give her 32-point buy, she actually goes up to CR 5.

By the same token, a spectral lyrist with 32-point buy is CR 6, not CR 4.

I don't remember anything about point-buy increasing the CR? I mean, giving more stats would obviously but I mean I can't think of a specific rule singling out that. Doesn't seem to be on the SRD at least. How much point-buy is the elite array worth again?

Also PC wealth is a +1 CR, but then again that's the same for other characters anyways. A Spectral Lyrist with no levels, 32-point buy, and PC WBL is only like CR 7. The same as a 5th-level PC.

That being said CR is notoriously inaccurate and especially for non-combat related monsters as well as incorporeality, so there's that.

[Troacctid]

I don't remember anything about point-buy increasing the CR? I mean, giving more stats would obviously but I mean I can't think of a specific rule singling out that. Doesn't seem to be on the SRD at least. How much point-buy is the elite array worth again?
The elite array is worth +1. Increasing the point buy by 5–10 points constitutes an ad hoc minor upgrade, which is another +1.


Also PC wealth is a +1 CR, but then again that's the same for other characters anyways. A Spectral Lyrist with no levels, 32-point buy, and PC WBL is only like CR 7. The same as a 5th-level PC.
Oh yeah, good point. I forgot about PC wealth.

[danielxcutter]

The elite array is worth +1. Increasing the point buy by 5–10 points constitutes an ad hoc minor upgrade, which is another +1.

So not really RAW?


Oh yeah, good point. I forgot about PC wealth.

The other PCs still get stats and WBL as good as yours though. "Oh, with a good array and WBL it's CR 7" doesn't mean it needs LA just because it's got a higher CR than HD now.

I really do think CR isn't particularly good for judging monsters with irregular qualities like this though. Gets kinda weird on creatures without so much as SLAs, let alone having beatstick numbers or actual casting when you advance them.

Anyways there isn't a whole lot this thing can do offensively? Defenses are good, but the Charisma drain only drops rogues and wizards fast(though I guess it'd mess with some caster-types) and... uh, how well does the DC scale? I guess it'd keep up against mid-level spells, but it's still useless against certain enemy types. A DM who only puts you up against enemies that negate your abilities is a jerk, but you can't count on them only throwing creatures weak against it at you either. Which... kinda leaves your underwhelming class abilities that a normal PC could probably do better.

Honestly, if the bardic music stacked with actual bard levels it'd be good, but it doesn't seem to. How many PrCs use it in ways that don't have the DC lag behind greatly?

Oh! Also, how well does Dirgesinger work? You're not exactly going to be an excellent caster, so might go the whole hog with special abilities. Isn't the capstone good?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Also of note: off the top of my head, all the PrC's that have "bardic music" as a prerequisite specify "bardic music class feature" or "class ability". RAW, I don't think the Spectral Lyrist qualifies.

[Troacctid]

So not really RAW?
No, it is. It's under "Other modifiers." And it broadly defines the general scope of minor boosts vs. significant boosts; "higher ability scores" is given as an example on page 293. Obviously it's a little wibbly-wobbly because the whole CR section is full of caveats, but if you consider the rules for associated and nonassociated class levels to be RAW, this is at about that same level of RAW-ness.


Also of note: off the top of my head, all the PrC's that have "bardic music" as a prerequisite specify "bardic music class feature" or "class ability". RAW, I don't think the Spectral Lyrist qualifies.
Seeker of the song, arguably the most bardic musicy of all the bardic music classes, just says "bardic music ability," so it's fair game! I also mentioned the Warrior Skald + War Chanter combo earlier; warrior skald actually doesn't require any bardic music ability at all, and in fact it grants you all the bardic music effects if you don't already have them. Oh, and all the bard prestige classes in Dragon #311 should be accessible too, and they're pretty good, even granting you bard spellcasting if you don't already have it.

[Thurbane]

Also of note: off the top of my head, all the PrC's that have "bardic music" as a prerequisite specify "bardic music class feature" or "class ability". RAW, I don't think the Spectral Lyrist qualifies.

There are a small handful:

- Lyric Thaumaturge: "Bardic music 5/day" Requires Melodic Casting, which in turn requires Bardic music class feature.
- Seeker of the Song: "Bardic music ability"
- Sublime Chord "Bardic music ability"

Also, Dawncaller: "Bardic music ability". But you need to be a Goliath, and undead can't qualify for Stoneblessed, so...

partially ninja'd

[danielxcutter]

No, it is. It's under "Other modifiers." And it broadly defines the general scope of minor boosts vs. significant boosts; "higher ability scores" is given as an example on page 293. Obviously it's a little wibbly-wobbly because the whole CR section is full of caveats, but if you consider the rules for associated and nonassociated class levels to be RAW, this is at about that same level of RAW-ness.

Okay, that makes sense. “Not strictly spelled out, but not entirely unreasonable to assume the DM will agree” sounds about right for those.

Also speaking of associated class levels man are those parts of the rules weird. You can break the CR system over your knee using base creatures with enough HD bloat and some combinations can have their cake and eat it(a lot of true giants can get +16 BAB and 9ths even with just poor BAB caster classes, and Primordial Giant only counts Warlock as associated IIRC). Not to mention figuring out the fringe cases is only marginally less painful than removing your own wisdom teeth. Without painkillers.(Is Swordsage be associated or not for something like giants? What about Monk?)

I do think it’s nice that a lot of monsters printed later have some guidelines about what should be associated and what shouldn’t. I think there’s quite a few in the MMV?

[ciopo]

I mean I suppose it’s not totally impossible to jack the DC up… but without the stacking, it’s hard to make it incredibly good, especially since a) it becomes completely useless against certain enemies(forget types, Body Ward’s only a 2nd-level Cleric spell), and b) most things with low Cha tend to not depend on it(as well as have high Fort bonuses).
body ward does nothing for mental abilities damage, there is soul ward for mental abilities, but since damage to Int/Wis/Cha are much less common than Str/Dex/Con damage, I find it unlikely that it would be prepared

[danielxcutter]

I mean, by what assumptions? That goes for a very large number of spells that someone hasn’t planned their entire build around.

[ciopo]

fair, I'm just fastidious about details sometimes, my apologies

[GreatWyrmGold]

yes i understand that. a lvl 4 fighter is also CR 4 (IIRC). That means #CR = #PC class levels. This thing has 6 monster class levels but is only rated as being as strong as 4 PC class levels. To me that makes it -0.
I see why you'd think that, but you're wrong. The whole reason CR and ECL are separate numbers is that most abilities are more useful for a PC than a monster or vise versa. Incorporeality isn't useless for a monster in combat, for instance, but it's far more potent for a PC. Alter Appearance might let the lyrist get the drop on the party, but it's otherwise useless for monsters; however, a PC will find it quite useful if there's any kind of social or intrigue challenges in the campaign. The spectral lyrist's bardic music requires that it not do anything else and breaks if someone takes aggressive action towards the target—this makes it hard to use in combat, but clever PCs can find plenty of uses for it regardless.

The Spectral Lyrist is practically built out of abilities that are more useful for PCs than monsters. If its ECL wasn't higher than its CR, something would be dreadfully wrong.

[danielxcutter]

I mean being a face isn't much help for a monster, but there isn't that much else this thing can pull besides incorporeality(which other monsters have cheaper) and a disguise. No the touch doesn't count, the DC's not worth the investment especially if the DM decides to randomly shut you down.

[Debatra]

No the touch doesn't count, the DC's not worth the investment especially if the DM decides to randomly shut you down.

As mentioned whenever someone brings up "Freedom of Movement exists" in response to a grapple-focused monster, this should not be considered relevant to a creature's LA. If the DM is constantly using things that no-sell you, it's an issue (and that kind of DM probably wouldn't let you use these threads' ratings anyway). If it's just an occasional thing, it should be fine.

[Thurbane]

On a side-note, the touch has an inherent drawback in that it is most effective at shutting down mooks with low Charisma, but those same mooks usually have a high Fort save.

It would be quite effective against Sorcerers, Warmages, Dread Necros and the like, that rely on Charisma for their highest level spells and spell save DCs, but also generally have a bad Fort save bonus.

Remind me, does sneak attack damage get added to ability damage, or is it just converted to negative energy damage?

[danielxcutter]

On a side-note, the touch has an inherent drawback in that it is most effective at shutting down mooks with low Charisma, but those same mooks usually have a high Fort save.

It would be quite effective against Sorcerers, Warmages, Dread Necros and the like, that rely on Charisma for their highest level spells and spell save DCs, but also generally have a bad Fort save bonus.

Remind me, does sneak attack damage get added to ability damage, or is it just converted to negative energy damage?

Yeah this is what I meant; it’s possible to use against Cha-based casters but you’re not dropping any bruisers any time soon.

[Debatra]

Remind me, does sneak attack damage get added to ability damage, or is it just converted to negative energy damage?

Negative energy.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Negative energy.

Of course. 6d6 damage isn't that much at level 11, but 6d6 Dex damage is just overwhelming.

[danielxcutter]

Also it's only 1/round(two with Haste) and that's assuming your target fails the save which is... not guaranteed. You might be better off just using a Necrotic Focus Ghost Touch weapon at that point, assuming you go with that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I mean being a face isn't much help for a monster, but there isn't that much else this thing can pull besides incorporeality(which other monsters have cheaper) and a disguise.

being a face isn't much help for a monster
...that's it? Asserting that "face" is not a valid role to consider when rating monsters? I gotta level with you, "Nuh-uh" is not a terribly compelling argument.

[danielxcutter]

...that's it? Asserting that "face" is not a valid role to consider when rating monsters? I gotta level with you, "Nuh-uh" is not a terribly compelling argument.

I meant "monster" as "thing you're going to beat up for XP" rather than "monstrous race". I don't see Diplomacy being used often in a random encounter.

[liquidformat]

Without LA, you have the ability scores to enter Sublime Chord by Wizard and keep the Wizard spells functioning just fine. Though you can only fit Sublime Chord 9, as you have to have 5 levels of Wizard to get 3rd level spells that way, it's going from a 6rhd monster with no innate spellcasting to 9th level spells. You can also go Sublime Chord 2/Stormsinger 7, still getting 9th level spells, but having 8 additional uses of Bardic Music instead of 4, and trade Song of Timelessness for all the Stormsong effects up to Winter's Ballad. With LA +2, you still end up reaching 8th level spells.

This can get a single 9th level spell by 19 if it takes an accelerated casting PRC isn't much of an argument in favor of giving this thing positive LA.

My main issue with spectral lyrist is that you really aren't getting much and what you are getting isn't very good. Charisma Drain once the asterisk is added isn't great, most monsters and mooks you encounter will have high fort saves or are straight up immune due to type and things like rogues and arcane casters which have lower fort saves are more rare as encounters and often have higher cha making them harder targets to take on. To be honest if the Charisma Drain had a Will Save instead I think this would be +1, however, it being a fort save and getting slammed with an asterisk really tanks it.

Side note are we meaning asterisk to remove the entire ability, just remove the cha bonus, cap the cha/hp bonus, or remove both cha and hp bonus?

It makes the spectral lyrist very hard to place for power level, in a heavy murder hobo focused game spectral lyrist is a very bad choice and would make for a -0 choice, in a more standard game that has a mix of combat and non combat encounters I think this would be low end +0, and in a game that is hyper focused on intrigue and noncombat this would be probably close to +1. Altogether, getting fascinate and suggestion out of a mock bardic music ability, incorporeality undead traits, Alter Appearance, a good skill list (hide, move silently, and UMD would make it great), and decent ability bonuses I think it skirts by at +0* LA.



There are a small handful:

- Lyric Thaumaturge: "Bardic music 5/day" Requires Melodic Casting, which in turn requires Bardic music class feature.
- Seeker of the Song: "Bardic music ability"
- Sublime Chord "Bardic music ability"

Also, Dawncaller: "Bardic music ability". But you need to be a Goliath, and undead can't qualify for Stoneblessed, so...

partially ninja'd

There is also Warchanter which doesn't apply in this case since it requires inspire courage and Warrior Skald which only requires Power Attack, Cleave, Concentration, and Perform but gives you true bardic music +.

I actually rather like both PRCs they are quite fun especially in Gestalt games I have used Warchanter in a low magic game with a spelless Harmonious Knight Paladin which was a lot of fun. Though Warrior Skald really should have better HD d6 is hard to swallow also both should have gotten umd...

[Debatra]

Side note are we meaning asterisk to remove the entire ability, just remove the cha bonus, cap the cha/hp bonus, or remove both cha and hp bonus?

Just the charisma bonus.


It makes the spectral lyrist very hard to place for power level, in a heavy murder hobo focused game spectral lyrist is a very bad choice and would make for a -0 choice, in a more standard game that has a mix of combat and non combat encounters I think this would be low end +0, and in a game that is hyper focused on intrigue and noncombat this would be probably close to +1. Altogether, getting fascinate and suggestion out of a mock bardic music ability, incorporeality undead traits, Alter Appearance, a good skill list (hide, move silently, and UMD would make it great), and decent ability bonuses I think it skirts by at +0* LA.

We can't really assume any particular kind of game (and especially giving ratings like "+X if you're murderhobo-ing, +Y if your game has a lot of intrigue and low combat", etc are just right out). We try to give general ratings here. A monster that is combat-focused doesn't get a higher rating than something that is "just" really good at talking or sneaking.

[danielxcutter]

Isn't the only Face-focused monster we've rated the Succubus? Which, y'know, still had Outsider HD as well as good stats?

[liquidformat]

Just the charisma bonus.

Ok that makes it a bit easier to swallow, I know with shambling mound we talked about capping its ability vs just straight outright removing it.


We can't really assume any particular kind of game (and especially giving ratings like "+X if you're murderhobo-ing, +Y if your game has a lot of intrigue and low combat", etc are just right out. We try to give general ratings here. A monster that is combat-focused doesn't get a higher rating than something that is "just" really good at talking or sneaking.

Yep that is kind of my point, that things seem to balance out over all, in some games its abilities are a huge boon and in others it will flounder but over all I think it has enough going on to skirt by as a +0* LA. It is similar for a lot of the aquatic monsters, they often deserve a 'higher LA' in aquatic games or are down right unplayable in nonaquatic games until you have resources to overcome their issues.


Isn't the only Face-focused monster we've rated the Succubus? Which, y'know, still had Outsider HD as well as good stats?

Technically the Erinyes too but it has more combat focused abilities. The Succubus having at will ethereal jaunt and 6 rhd actually makes it an interesting comparison point as ethereal jaunt does give similar benefits to Incorporeal without some of the downsides, also its range of at will spells in and of themselves make it a lot more useful than spectral lyrist. Comparing the two side by side the Succubus is dramatically more powerful so I can't see spectral lyrist getting +1 much less +2 LA. I think incorporeal, undead, and ability scores are enough for 3-4 RHD, so the question really is are Alter Appearance, Bardic Music, and charisma drain worth 2-3 rhd?

I think the closest comparison point I can think of is a necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 5, necropolitan changeling Bard 5, maybe necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 4/Bard 1, or necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 1/Bard 4 all of these comparison points would be high tier 3 low tier 2. Honestly, I don't see spectral lyrist being as useful as any of these in or outside of combat and it is going to struggle being competitive with these builds. If it weren't for its bardic music ability allowing it to jump right into some decent prcs I would say it is -0. As is like I have said before it just barely hits that +0* mark, you aren't outcompeting anyone at a similar level and in fact you are often probably going to feel slightly useless, that sounds like it is in tier 4 or 5 which is just enough to be +0...

[danielxcutter]

I mean, I don't really agree with +0 but I can stomach it easier than the weird votes like +2. Because like no, this is not worth 8 levels' worth of progress and your Constitution score.

Don't really feel qualified to vote for a lot of these things though. Haven't since we started this book.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I meant "monster" as "thing you're going to beat up for XP" rather than "monstrous race". I don't see Diplomacy being used often in a random encounter.
Oh, I misread your post as saying that it wasn't worth considering face abilities when rating monsters as player characters, not as encounters.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, I misread your post as saying that it wasn't worth considering face abilities when rating monsters as player characters, not as encounters.

Yeah being able to be a face is valid(whether I think the Spectral Lyrist's are worth it is another question, but it's still a plus), but when's the last random encounter where a monster used a social skill besides Bluff(for feinting) or Intimidate? Heck, how many people have had one at all?

[liquidformat]

Yeah being able to be a face is valid(whether I think the Spectral Lyrist's are worth it is another question, but it's still a plus), but when's the last random encounter where a monster used a social skill besides Bluff(for feinting) or Intimidate? Heck, how many people have had one at all?

I feel like I had this happen in a joke evil murderhobo game...

[Thurbane]

The Visilight had a similar Cha draining/boost issues, although it's triggered on a grapple, from memory.

[H_H_F_F]

Yeah being able to be a face is valid(whether I think the Spectral Lyrist's are worth it is another question, but it's still a plus), but when's the last random encounter where a monster used a social skill besides Bluff(for feinting) or Intimidate? Heck, how many people have had one at all?

Isn't the whole point of this thread to make these monsters playable?

[Thurbane]

Isn't the whole point of this thread to make these monsters playable?

I think what danielxcutter was trying to say was that being a face is not very useful for non-PC monsters (i.e. random encounters).

[liquidformat]

I think what danielxcutter was trying to say was that being a face is not very useful for non-PC monsters (i.e. random encounters).

Yeah that is my understanding too, I could see it being an ok reoccurring NPC that is either not explicitly a bad guy or part of the ongoing bad guy's group but as random encounter it is pretty worthless

[danielxcutter]

I think what danielxcutter was trying to say was that being a face is not very useful for non-PC monsters (i.e. random encounters).

Yes, thank you. This isn’t even the first time someone’s had to clarify that.

[H_H_F_F]

Yes, thank you. This isn’t even the first time someone’s had to clarify that.

My bad. Apologies.

[Debatra]

+2* - Troacctid, Morphic tide
+1* - Efrate
+0* - Thurbane, Temotei, Beni-Kujaku, liquidformat
-0* - Remuko

I'm not gonna call it quite yet, but probably by this evening.

[danielxcutter]

Uh... how do we weigh votes again? By average it looks like it'd come out as a +1 but that doesn't really seem representative...

Oh, I guess +0* would work, since incorporeality is that strong and there are some bard PrCs that this thing can use.

[Caelestion]

I think I'd play that as is. LA +0*.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think I'd play that as is. LA +0*.

And that makes (+5-1)/9 (if we count -0 as at least -1‚ hence an average of +0.44‚ rounded to 0

[Debatra]

Well, the averages usually only matter if there's no clear winner in the votes, and +0* has just pulled far enough away for that to not be an issue. Next on the docket is the somewhat-complex Swarm Shifter template.

[Debatra]

Swarm-Shifter
https://i.imgur.com/73vsCaU.jpg
A Swarm-Shifter Mummy

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any corporeal Undead with an Intelligence score
Size & Type: Gains the Shapechanger subtype, and the Swarm subtype (and possible size change) when in Swarm form.
Space/Reach: Unchanged in normal form, 10'/0' in Swarm form
Hit Dice: Unchanged
Speed: Unchanged in normal form
Ability Scores: Unchanged in normal form, Swarm form changes Str and Dex based on size (see table 4-2, MMI, pg 291), with a minimum Str of 1.
Armor Class: Unchanged in normal form, Swarm form changes Natural Armor based on size (see table 4-2, MMI, pg 291).
Skills: Unchanged in normal form, +10 to Disguise in various circumstances based on form. (In general, assume the bonus applies to attempts to look normal or inanimate.)
CR: +1, or +2 if applied multiple times (regardless of how many).
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1, or +2 if applied multiple times (regardless of how many).

You read that right, we have another template that can be acquired multiple times on the same creature. And this one gives eleven different alternate forms that will likely need to be rated individually. Or maybe we'll get lucky and they'll all be worth the same LA.

So what do all the forms have in common? Well, it can Shift at will. Shifting forms heals it for 1 HP per HD, just like most alternate forms do. If it has multiple forms, it can shift straight from one to another. While shifting is a Supernatural ability, maintaining the forms actually isn't. An AMF won't change a Swarm-Shifter back to normal, and True Seeing reveals all of the creature's forms. If the swarm would take enough damage to disperse it, the Shifter returns to its normal form and is destroyed (unless it's an Undead with specific destruction rules, like a Vampire or Lich).

While in a Swarm form, the Shifter gains the Hive Mind special quality, giving it immunity to anything that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells) except things that "command, control, turn, rebuke, bolster, or destroy undead specifically". The ability to speak is lost in Swarm form.

Swarm damage is given in a table on page 125 of Libris Mortis, and is based on the base creature's HD. Their Distraction ability is the same as other swarms. I'm not going to copy/paste normal swarm things like immunity to weapon damage eleven times, so just know your swarm rules. Unless otherwise noted, Distraction DCs are Constitution-based and other DCs are Charisma-based. Poisons and Diseases are of course delivered via the Swarm attack.



Bat Swarm

Size: Diminutive
Speed: 5', Fly 40' (Good)
Special Attacks: Wounding - Living creatures damaged by the swarm bleed for one damage per round until they receive a DC10 Heal check or any form of magical healing.
Special Qualities: Blindsense 20', based on sound.


Beetle Swarm

Size: Diminutive
Speed: 30', Burrow 20', Fly 10' (Poor)
Special Attacks: N/A
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'


Centipede Swarm

Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20', Climb 20'
Special Attacks: Poison, 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex
Special Qualities: N/A


Fly Swarm

Size: Fine
Speed: Fly 40' (Perfect)
Special Attacks: Disease, Red Ache, 1d3 Days Inc, 1d8 Dex
Special Qualities: N/A


Leech Swarm

Size: Diminutive (also gains Aquatic subtype)
Speed: 5', Swim 30'
Special Attacks: Wounding (same as bats above)
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 30', also works in water


Maggot (or Worm) Swarm

Size: Fine
Speed: 20'
Special Attacks: Extended Nausea - Nausea from Distraction lasts 2d4 rounds
Special Qualities: N/A


Body Part Swarm

...No, really. A swarm of misc body parts. Bones, organs, flesh, etc.

Size: Tiny
Speed: 20', Fly 20' (Poor)
Special Attacks: Fear - creatures damaged by the Swarm must make a will save or be Frightened for 1d4 rounds. This does not have the usual 24-hour immunity clause. Parts - Swarm attack does an additional 1d6 damage.
Special Qualities: N/A


Rat Swarm

Size: Tiny
Speed: 15', Climb 15'
Special Attacks: Disease - Filth Fever, 1d3 day Inc, 1d3 Dex and Con
Special Qualities: Scent


Sand (or Tomb Dust or Grave Dirt) Swarm

Size: Fine
Speed: Fly 60' (Perfect)
Special Attacks: N/A
Special Qualities: N/A


Scorpion Swarm

Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20'
Special Attacks: Poison - 1d2 Con/1d2 Con
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'


Spider Swarm

Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20', Climb 20'
Special Attacks: Poison - 1d3 Str/1d3 Str
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'

[Troacctid]

This doesn't seem too far off from Mulhorandi divine minion, which is +1 or +2, basically the same as the CR adjustment here. Swarm forms are more powerful than animal forms, but they don't count as wild shape for synergy purposes, so there's a legitimate tradeoff.

[liquidformat]

First comment, the Sand form does give you immunity to weapon damage.

From a player point of view I am not seeing a much of a difference between having a single swarm form, two swarm forms, or all swarm forms. Sure each has their own specialty and some give you versatility like flying swimming burrowing blindsense or tremor sense but you have to switch between forms to access each different thing. Like Troacctid said this doesn't get treated as wild shape and it doesn't get treated as werewolf shifting which both of some support so its not super dramatic. In the end I think +1 LA for the ability to shift into a swarm at will regardless of which form or however many you choose to have access to.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Loses the ability to make melee attacks (actually, "normal" attacks period for a Swarm Shifter) and to threaten (even its own space) while in swarm form, and also take bonus damage from AOEs. In exchange, they're resistant or immune to most physical attacks, immune to any spell or effect that isn't an AOE or able to bypass their undead immunity to mind-affecting, can't be tripped/grappled/bull-rushed, and in most cases get an additional movement/sense option. Swarm immunities are freaking good, much better than anything Wild Shape is giving you... except for the fact that while in swarm form you also lose all the special attacks of the base creature, which is going to include spells, SLAs, psionics... basically everything that isn't better defined as a Special Quality.

Swarm Shifter gives you a fantastic defensive trick, and some neat utility options in most cases, but you lose almost all offensive ability while using them. I'm going to say +2 for the first application, and +1 for each subsequent application another +1 (that's +3 total) if you have more than one (you're not getting nearly as much, but it's still significantly more than nothing, and there are no downsides, so I think +0 is inappropriate). Some of the forms could be worth less, but I'm not feeling like breaking down each of them individually at the moment.

EDIT: I've been convinced that there is not a levels worth of power between having two swarm forms and having all of them. The second form can give you a missing movement mode and/or special sense, but after that you're not getting anything worth an additional +1.

[Troacctid]

I'm thinking +1 for the first application, but it's on the high end of +1. Strong. Not strong enough for +2.

I'd also put the second application at +1 for a total of +2. However, I think there are enough diminishing returns that it's safe to put the third and subsequent applications at +0. So: +1 for just one swarm form, +2 for all the swarm forms.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, can you still manifest powers as a swarm? Casting seems like it’d be a pain but psionic powers don’t need material or somatic components.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hey, can you still manifest powers as a swarm? Casting seems like it’d be a pain but psionic powers don’t need material or somatic components.

Infinite (really fast, at that, since it only takes 7 rounds to heal yourself to full, whatever your level) out-of-combat healing, perfect flying, immunity to weapon damage, and you can still cast if you have silent spell or if you're a psionic or a warlock. Also you just can't be grappled, since you can just shift out whenever someone tries to grapple you. And you get various senses/movement modes according to your form. Plus you can litterally basically go through walls with the sand swarm. Even flies can be stopped by a normal door, but dust will just go under, or through any venting holes. Being able to change type can also lead to a whole lot of shenanigans. Also, it doesn't say what action it takes to shift. That is strong, really, really strong and versatile. I will say LA +2 if this is a standard action shifting, and LA+3 if it is a free action or no action (note that that would make no sense since it would mean you heal to full at each of your turn). Oh, and an additional LA+1 if you have more than one form. I don't think these add so much versatility that they need an LA for each one.

[remetagross]

I'm with Troacctid on that one. The first application of the template is worth LA + 1. The defensive and mobility-related benefits are huge, but the fact you lose pretty much all offensive abilities will severly deter you from remaining in that form all day long - plus, you still gain added vulnerability to AoE attacks. Yeah, and shifting is a standard action, so that costs a turn too. Silent and/or Still spell (that's a non-insignificant cost, mind you), will allow spellcasters to continue just fine, as well as psionic classes, but Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts are hosed. Classes that rely on normal attacks become essentially nonfunctional, though maybe swarm damage can apply Sneak Attack somehow?

Adding a second time the template (most likely sand for the mobility it offers) might bring you up to LA+2, but yeah there's not much point in carrying up below that stage.


So put me down for LA+1 the first time, LA+2 the second and subsequent times.

[Tzardok]

I'll agree with the version Beni-Kujaku posted before he changed his mind. +2 for the first application, +1 for each other subsequent application. Or in other words: First +2, second +3 (total), third +3 (total), fourth +4 (total), fifth +4 (total), and so on.

[danielxcutter]

Infinite (really fast, at that, since it only takes 7 rounds to heal yourself to full, whatever your level) out-of-combat healing, perfect flying, immunity to weapon damage, and you can still cast if you have silent spell or if you're a psionic or a warlock. Also you just can't be grappled, since you can just shift out whenever someone tries to grapple you. And you get various senses/movement modes according to your form. Plus you can litterally basically go through walls with the sand swarm. Even flies can be stopped by a normal door, but dust will just go under, or through any venting holes. Being able to change type can also lead to a whole lot of shenanigans. Also, it doesn't say what action it takes to shift. That is strong, really, really strong and versatile. I will say LA +2 if this is a standard action shifting, and LA+3 if it is a free action or no action (note that that would make no sense since it would mean you heal to full at each of your turn). Oh, and an additional LA+1 if you have more than one form. I don't think these add so much versatility that they need an LA for each one.

Uh… I think most swarms can’t use somatic components? Also it does make you a bit weaker to AoE damage and undead with LA kinda suck in the hit points department.

Still, a swarm-shifter necropolitan psion does sound pretty neat. How do preexisting buffs work with this thing? I guess AC won’t really matter much as a swarm, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need buffs.

[Efrate]

I think +2 for the first, +1 for the second, then +0 for each subsequent form. As a monster its not huge, but as a PC you can with no down side take out a huge portion of foes who just have no way to interact with you.
Dust/sand is amazing for infiltration, and any of the bleeding swarms can wait out a LOT of living opposition.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm. Should there be different LAs depending on type? Are any particularly stronger than the alternatives?

[liquidformat]

I'll agree with the version Beni-Kujaku posted before he changed his mind. +2 for the first application, +1 for each other subsequent application. Or in other words: First +2, second +3 (total), third +3 (total), fourth +4 (total), fifth +4 (total), and so on.
Can someone tell what I am missing here?

Everyone is saying having a second form is worth at least another +1 and for the life of me I can't see it at all. Granting the ability to swarm shape is very strong and it is a high +1 but I am not seeing how adding all the swarm forms much less just one extra is giving you enough for an extra +1. Its not like I can be multiple forms at the same time, there isn't enough versatility added from any form for any of them to be dramatically better than any other, each has pluses and minuses with some just sucking. Finally, like has already been said swarm shifting has some major down sides, it pretty much forces you into either being psionic or needing to do some pretty major meta magic investment to be capable of casting while in swarm form; Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials are all required to be able to cast spells, or you need to be cherry picking your spell list. So what am I missing here, I don't see anything granted from getting access to additional forms that gives you enough versatility and power to justify further LA, heck even WotC are pretty much with me on this just look at the CR for this thing.

Its also worth noting that we can get similar abilities from Master of Flies and City Shape, so a good comparison point here is wild shape ranger/ Master of Flies (note because swarm shape is treated as wild shape we only need a 2 level dip to get 80% of the versatility of swarm shaping) or city shape druid which gets swarm shape at level 12. Both examples highlight that at early levels Swarm Shifter is definitely worth a +1, however, somewhere between Level 7 to 12 the template becomes +0 regardless of how many forms the template grants you access to.

So is there something here I am missing or are people just way over valuing this? I can get very comparable abilities around level 7-12 without loosing any levels, that doesn't seem like a template worth more than +1 LA to me.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and if your argument for the LA is "oh this one is super OP so the whole template needs a +2" then give that option a +2 rather than give it a blanket rating.

I would presume your swarm doesn't have the needs of a normal one(such as breathing for live creatures)? Still, if we consider aquatic creatures to be used in aquatic campaigns then the leech swarm should probably be judged by that(because with 5 ft. and 30 ft. speed you're not really going to be using it outside water), and the rest probably shouldn't be used in such a campaign.

Also wait, do you keep your gear? Wild Shape doesn't unless you use Wilding Clasps or something like that, same for Polymorph.

[Efrate]

Rereading, I think I am okay with a flat +2. That is assuming mostly sand shape. It looks at a quick glance to be the best and I do not think for reasons of power you would choose anything else.

60 ft. perfect fly speed, immunity to single target spells which is all rays or ranged touch attacks plus anything mental thay you were not already immune to, infinite out of combat healing, immunity to weapon damage, bypaasing of most doors and anything else that is not air tight, and invulnerability to most encounters.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but if the others are that much weaker, what's wrong with only giving Sand Shape a +2 and the rest +1, for example?

[liquidformat]

Here is my guess at ranking, granted I don't think there is much difference between them Rat<Body Part<Centipede<Maggot<Scorpion=Spider=Beetle=Leech=Fly=Bat<Sand

Scorpion, spider, Beetle, Leech, Fly, and Bat all seem pretty comparable with each having slight advantages in one way or another.


Yeah, but if the others are that much weaker, what's wrong with only giving Sand Shape a +2 and the rest +1, for example?

Personally, while sand is good to best that is mostly because of perfect maneuverability with 60' fly speed, anything beyond that is up to DM fiat. No where is it explicitly called out that sand/dust/dirt can get through unopened doors and so forth and if you have a DM that isn't agreeing with that inflation in power the Fly, Bat, and Beetle all offer some extra options that are helpful and you don't get in sand shape...

[danielxcutter]

The leech swarm option is pretty bad on land, though quite good in aquatic campaigns. Flight speeds don't work underwater right?

[Tzardok]

The leech swarm option is pretty bad on land, though quite good in aquatic campaigns. Flight speeds don't work underwater right?

No, they don't. Unless you are incorporal.

[Debatra]

Hmm. Should there be different LAs depending on type? Are any particularly stronger than the alternatives?

At first glance, the extra senses stand out a bit. Then I remember that you only get those senses in Swarm form and most of them also make you slower than 30' per round. The bat swarm being the sole exception, as it gives you Fly 40' (Good) and 20' Blindsense. That said, I'm not sure I would give Bats a higher rating than any of the others based on that.

The swarm of body parts though? No clause on the fear effect that makes victims immune for a while. You could keep an enemy Frightened as long as you can reach them. 20' speed though.

In my opinion at least; it would seem none of them are that far and away better than the others, so we can safely just rate the template as a whole.


note because swarm shape is treated as wild shape

Maybe I missed something. Where does it say that?


Oh, and if your argument for the LA is "oh this one is super OP so the whole template needs a +2" then give that option a +2 rather than give it a blanket rating.

I would presume your swarm doesn't have the needs of a normal one(such as breathing for live creatures)? Still, if we consider aquatic creatures to be used in aquatic campaigns then the leech swarm should probably be judged by that(because with 5 ft. and 30 ft. speed you're not really going to be using it outside water), and the rest probably shouldn't be used in such a campaign.

Also wait, do you keep your gear? Wild Shape doesn't unless you use Wilding Clasps or something like that, same for Polymorph.

I will mention that all of the swarm forms maintain your Undead creature type. You don't need to worry about the aquatic subtype (aside from how slow you are on land).

Your gear melds into your form, and the text actually references Alter Self to note that, not Wild Shape. (It only mentions Alter Self to describe the gear melding, not the entire ability.)

[liquidformat]

Maybe I missed something. Where does it say that?

Sorry for the confusion I was specifically talking about Master of Flies and City Shape with that comment, they both are expressly treated as wild shape with some exceptions in the case of MoF. The point was Master of Flies and City Shape both giving 'swarm shape' that counts as wild shape partially makes up for the fact that it isn't unlimited uses nor automatically giving you special qualities like swarm shaper template. It was getting a bit confusing since all three give you 'Swarm shape' but each is functionally slightly different.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hmm. Should there be different LAs depending on type? Are any particularly stronger than the alternatives?

I don't think so. As mentioned, bat and dust are probably the strongest, but the differences are not that massive to warrant a different LA in my opinion. You will almost always find holes to infiltrate what you want big enough even for rats, and even if they don't have much for them, even the weakest swarms have a bit to sell, the rats have scent and a climb speed, the parts have a weird fear ability, even the leeches have tremorsense which can be good in some situation, and is definitely the best in an aquatic campaign. But the major point is that the gist of the template (infinite healing, nigh-immunity to weapon damage, immunity to any single target effect) remains the same, and you become quite invincible with just evasion on top of that. I don't think we should make several LA when "you can become a swarm" remains the same.

[liquidformat]

I don't think so. As mentioned, bat and dust are probably the strongest, but the differences are not that massive to warrant a different LA in my opinion. You will almost always find holes to infiltrate what you want big enough even for rats, and even if they don't have much for them, even the weakest swarms have a bit to sell, the rats have scent and a climb speed, the parts have a weird fear ability, even the leeches have tremorsense which can be good in some situation, and is definitely the best in an aquatic campaign. But the major point is that the gist of the template (infinite healing, nigh-immunity to weapon damage, immunity to any single target effect) remains the same, and you become quite invincible with just evasion on top of that. I don't think we should make several LA when "you can become a swarm" remains the same.

Yeah seems reasonable to me, you really aren't getting anything beyond the first form.

Also random thought question, can the parts swarm open doors? Also can parts swarm wear equipment? Seems like at the least rings, boots, gloves, crown, and bracers are all on the table for a parts swarm

[danielxcutter]

I don't think so. As mentioned, bat and dust are probably the strongest, but the differences are not that massive to warrant a different LA in my opinion. You will almost always find holes to infiltrate what you want big enough even for rats, and even if they don't have much for them, even the weakest swarms have a bit to sell, the rats have scent and a climb speed, the parts have a weird fear ability, even the leeches have tremorsense which can be good in some situation, and is definitely the best in an aquatic campaign. But the major point is that the gist of the template (infinite healing, nigh-immunity to weapon damage, immunity to any single target effect) remains the same, and you become quite invincible with just evasion on top of that. I don't think we should make several LA when "you can become a swarm" remains the same.

Yes but I don't think the highest should be the automatic guideline for that, especially since the other options aren't horrible. Maybe aim for somewhere in the middle or average.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yes but I don't think the highest should be the automatic guideline for that, especially since the other options aren't horrible. Maybe aim for somewhere in the middle or average.

Hard disagree here. If somone chooses to get this template, or if their DM gives it to them, then they are going to choose what they think is the strongest option. Level adjustment should reflect the fact that people can take the dust form on a necropolitan psion, not that they may take the rat form on a fighter. Especially if we're to use these in an optimization challenge, we should aim for at least a medium level of optimization.

[Lilapop]

If somone chooses to get this template, or if their DM gives it to them, then they are going to choose what they think is the strongest option.

Or what fits the theme best. Or what fulfills the fantasy best. Or what qualifies you for the thing you actually want further down the road. If these are of different power levels, they should get individual ratings.

Regardless: When I skimmed the main post, I thought the idea of taking multiples came from the nonchange in type or some other technicality. Looking at the book I was suprised that is an explicit option... I was expecting a corpse filled with a swarm of whatevers, not a corpse that can change shape into one from a repertoire of swarms.

[danielxcutter]

I mean like, kobolds aren't +20 because Pun-Pun is a thing.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A bunch of people are missing that being in swarm form costs you all Special Attacks of the base form.

That means no spells, no psionics, no Eldritch Blasts, maybe no incarnum (but you've probably lost all your chakras except Totem and Soul anyway1)... on top of the "no normal attacks" rule you already had.

Technically, this wouldn't apply to class features you got after acquiring the template, though.


1. Unless you're a body part swarm, I guess. Which is kind of hilarious.

[danielxcutter]

...Manifesting counts as special attacks?

[InvisibleBison]

...Manifesting counts as special attacks?

Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)

tencharacters

[Tzardok]

Technically yes. If you, for example, look into the EPH under mind flayer, you'll see that its native manifesting is counted among its Special Attacks, just like a creature with innate spell casting has their spells under Special Attacks.
I still think there should be room for interpretation. The character is an undead swarm with a hive mind. What is preventing it from manifesting (or casting silent, still spells)?

[danielxcutter]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

[InvisibleBison]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

Non-native casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm#abolethMage) and manifesting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) are both listed in the special attacks entry.

[liquidformat]

A bunch of people are missing that being in swarm form costs you all Special Attacks of the base form.

That means no spells, no psionics, no Eldritch Blasts, maybe no incarnum (but you've probably lost all your chakras except Totem and Soul anyway1)... on top of the "no normal attacks" rule you already had.

Technically, this wouldn't apply to class features you got after acquiring the template, though.


1. Unless you're a body part swarm, I guess. Which is kind of hilarious.

I think this depends how you define 'special attacks of the base creature', I take that to mean special attacks granted to you by your race and not things granted to you by your class levels.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

Technically, it's only the base creature's casting/manifesting that are lost. Any non-native Special Attacks (including casting and psionics) that you acquire after the template are fair game for using in swarm form. So a Necropolitan Wizard 3 that became a Swarm Shifter and kept taking Wizard levels would (presumably) only lose 4 0th level, 2 1st level, and 1 2nd level spell slots when in swarm form... if the DM is generous.

EDIT: Hmm, Scout might be a good martial class for these guys, actually. Takes advantage of the mobility, durability, and sensory options, and they automatically hit anyone standing in the 4 squares they occupy at the end of their turn for easy Skirmish damage. They even get Evasion to help compensate for the weakness to AOE.

[Tzardok]

Yeah, that sounds like something I would ignore. I mean, I see how the RAW would work out that way, but it doesn't make sense to me to do it like that.

[Troacctid]

Since it references alter self, it should be treated as a polymorph effect, using the default rules for the subschool except where noted. That would indeed remove spellcasting and manifesting.

[Thurbane]

I'll be honest, these templates confuse me a bit, and I don't have a lot of spare time right now.

After a quick glance, and based on what others have said, I'm voting +1 for first application, and +2 (total) for more than one application.

[emulord]

WoTC got it right on this one. +1 for first, +2 for any/all.
If being a swarm is a downside you can always shift back to normal anyway.

Having 1 additional type of movement among {burrow, swim, fly} isnt worth another +1, but having all 3 is. Its possible to take something suboptimal like rat swarm but we won't be assuming that. Also the fear / nasuea is some potent debuffs potentially. I'm not sure what classes are best for this, but personally I'd take some classes with auras like Marshall so that I can be a debuff/buff presence on the field that is hard to actually damage.

[Efrate]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.

[Troacctid]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.
But that would require the whole party to be swarm-shifters, otherwise it doesn't matter if you can no-sell them, since they'll just attack someone else.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Changing my vote to +2 for the first application, and another +1 (+3 total) if you have more than one swarm form.

I do still think the defenses of a swarm are worth at least +2, even with the loss in offensive ability.

Something like Necropolitan Wild Shape Ranger 2 into Swarm Shifter, into a Swift Hunter build. You don't lose anything from Ranger (Troll (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) shows that Favored Enemy is a Special Quality, not a Special Attack), and since Skirmish is acquired after Swarm Shifter you get to keep it in swarm form and it applies to your swarm attack. You're basically immune to everything (especially once you get Evasion) and can double move/run and attack up to 4 creatures for full Improved Skirmish damage. If you pick Undead Bat Swarm (or Leech Swarm in an aquatic campaign) you've also gotten flight/swim and blindsight/tremorsense out of the deal.

[liquidformat]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.

I mean you get gust at level 5 and it shuts down swarms pretty quickly... But yes swarm is powerful against non casters...

[Troacctid]

Changing my vote to +2 for the first application, and another +1 (+3 total) if you have more than one swarm form.

I do still think the defenses of a swarm are worth at least +2, even with the loss in offensive ability.

Something like Necropolitan Wild Shape Ranger 2 into Swarm Shifter, into a Swift Hunter build. You don't lose anything from Ranger (Troll (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) shows that Favored Enemy is a Special Quality, not a Special Attack), and since Skirmish is acquired after Swarm Shifter you get to keep it in swarm form and it applies to your swarm attack. You're basically immune to everything (especially once you get Evasion) and can double move/run and attack up to 4 creatures for full Improved Skirmish damage. If you pick Undead Bat Swarm (or Leech Swarm in an aquatic campaign) you've also gotten flight/swim and blindsight/tremorsense out of the deal.
Even if you kept your skirmish/sneak attack dice, which you don't, you can't deal precision damage with a swarm attack because it isn't actually an attack—it's just automatic damage.

[danielxcutter]

I… guess it’s not useless even if you lose everything, but it mostly seems to be utility or a panic button rather than actually good for combat.

[liquidformat]

I'm not quite sure how anyone can say swarm shifter looses all special attacks period in swarm form and still think this is worth more than +1. To be honest if that is how we are interpreting the swarm form I lean towards +0...

[danielxcutter]

I mean it’s better than nothing so that’s a +1. The question is whether it’s worth any more(which I have doubts about).

[liquidformat]

The way I see it, if it allows class based abilities to still work it is a high +1 maybe even +2; if it doesn't then it is bottom of the barrel +1. You are pretty much taking yourself out of a fight so you don't die by going swarm form and there are still a number of abilities that are quite nasty against you, if all you can do is passively deal damage, can't run but everyone else can you are pretty useless and can just be avoided.

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...

[Beni-Kujaku]

The way I see it, if it allows class based abilities to still work it is a high +1 maybe even +2; if it doesn't then it is bottom of the barrel +1. You are pretty much taking yourself out of a fight so you don't die by going swarm form and there are still a number of abilities that are quite nasty against you, if all you can do is passively deal damage, can't run but everyone else can you are pretty useless and can just be avoided.

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...

WotC agrees with you. In pure combat on a beatstick/generic spellcaster like their sample, it's CR +1. However, this template is much better outside of combat, or as a last resort in combat, than it is to fight in. If you keep your manifesting, then it is fantastic to fight in, but even if it doesn't, it gives a lot of out-of-combat things. Enough for +2? I don't think so. But I wouldn't say bottom of the barrel. I keep my +2 vote if you keep your class abilities, but I go down to LA +1 of not.

[Troacctid]

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...
If you're already on the high side of +1 pushing +2, the extra versatility of going from one option to all the options should easily be enough to bump you up over the hill, IMO. That's why divine minions of Set are +2 while divine minions of Sobek are only +1 (which, btw, is also an easy canon comparison point in favor of +1 for one/+2 for all).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Even if you kept your skirmish/sneak attack dice, which you don't, you can't deal precision damage with a swarm attack because it isn't actually an attack—it's just automatic damage.

The RAW is pretty unambiguous. You only lose the Special Attacks of the "base creature", i.e., the creature before the application of the template. That's probably not RAI, though; I can definitely see a DM expanding that to all Special Attacks.

I think a Swarm Attack definitely qualifies for Skirmish, though. Skirmish only requires an attack, not an attack roll, and (in addition to having "attack" in the name), a Swarm Attack is clearly considered an attack by the monster entries, being compared to "standard melee attacks", listed in the Attack and Full Attack of the statblocks, and most convincingly:


Swarm Attack:
...
A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm.

(emphasis mine)

[liquidformat]

If you're already on the high side of +1 pushing +2, the extra versatility of going from one option to all the options should easily be enough to bump you up over the hill, IMO. That's why divine minions of Set are +2 while divine minions of Sobek are only +1 (which, btw, is also an easy canon comparison point in favor of +1 for one/+2 for all).

Its only a high plus one if swarm is able to keep casting and other class abilities and you are claiming it doesn't and yet supporting increasing the LA with extra forms, seems like its one or the other...

[Troacctid]

The RAW is pretty unambiguous. You only lose the Special Attacks of the "base creature", i.e., the creature before the application of the template. That's probably not RAI, though; I can definitely see a DM expanding that to all Special Attacks.
Since it references alter self, it's a polymorph effect, and that means:

In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).
...unless it explicitly states otherwise. Which, AFAICT, it doesn't.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Since it references alter self, it's a polymorph effect, and that means:

...unless it explicitly states otherwise. Which, AFAICT, it doesn't.

Hmm... okay, that makes sense, but the reference to alter self is only in regards to what happens to equipment.


As with the alter self spell, the base creature's items are absorbed into the swarm form and provide no benefit.

The ability as a whole is never compared to the spell, so it seems excessive to declare that the ability is a polymorph effect (and thus subject to those rules).

[Debatra]

+1/+0 - liquidformat, danielxcutter
+2/+0 - Efrate
+2/+1/+0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Beni-Kujaku, Tzardok
+1/+1/+0 - Troacctid, remetagross, Thurbane, emulord

I think I got that right, though some of the votes were slightly hard to parse between things like "+X for the first form, an additional +Y for the second, +0 for the rest", or "+X for the first, +Y total for the second, +0 for the rest", and etc.


Hard disagree here. If somone chooses to get this template, or if their DM gives it to them, then they are going to choose what they think is the strongest option. Level adjustment should reflect the fact that people can take the dust form on a necropolitan psion, not that they may take the rat form on a fighter. Especially if we're to use these in an optimization challenge, we should aim for at least a medium level of optimization.

If you think one of the forms is that far and away better than the others, feel free to rate that specific form separately and leave a general one for the rest.

---

Since the conversation has died, I'll give it one last day for people to correct me if I goofed on something before calling it.

[Tzardok]

I think I'm going to change my vote to +2/+1/+0.

[Remuko]

Im formally abstaining from rating this cuz its way too hard to wrap my head around lol

[danielxcutter]

What are those separate votes for again?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What are those separate votes for again?

Fist swarm form/ second swarm form/ all other swarm forms.

[danielxcutter]

Oh. Okay, net +1 for me then. It’s far from useless but I’m under the impression you can’t do much in swarm form.

[liquidformat]

Oh. Okay, net +1 for me then. It’s far from useless but I’m under the impression you can’t do much in swarm form.

And adding extra forms isn't giving you much compared to the first form...

[remetagross]

Having them shaft any offensive abilities including psionics et al. hurts them quite a lot, though I still stand by my vote: it turns them from a strong LA +1 to a weak one.

[liquidformat]

Having them shaft any offensive abilities including psionics et al. hurts them quite a lot, though I still stand by my vote: it turns them from a strong LA +1 to a weak one.

Even for multiple forms? I still ask why are multiple forms worth more LA you are getting almost nothing.

[remetagross]

Well now it's more on the verge, but I'll argue that's because some of the forms offer quite different abilities. Sand gives a great deal of airborne maneuverability, leeches can move underwater (useful trick to play as a vampire who gets immersed in a river to get destroyed), bats give you blindsense, maggots nauseate the foe for 2d4 rounds (!), members have an uncapped fear effect...

[Troacctid]

Yeah, there's a reason why troll shape isn't as popular as polymorph, why totem druids get wild shape so much earlier than normal druids. Shapeshifting into just one form is usually a lot less powerful than shapeshifting into a wide variety of forms. And frankly, one swarm form plus unlimited out-of-combat healing is already a pretty solid, interesting +1.

I still support +1/+1/+0. I guess I could be convinced of +1/+0/+1, but +1/+0/+0 is out of the question IMO.

[liquidformat]

Well now it's more on the verge, but I'll argue that's because some of the forms offer quite different abilities. Sand gives a great deal of airborne maneuverability, leeches can move underwater (useful trick to play as a vampire who gets immersed in a river to get destroyed), bats give you blindsense, maggots nauseate the foe for 2d4 rounds (!), members have an uncapped fear effect...

At the same time I don't really see much of a power difference between say Necropoliton wild shape ranger 6/master of flies 3 and Necropoliton Swarm Shifter Ranger 9. I think level 9 is where the swarm shifter and WS ranger balance out; swarm shaper has healing from swarm shifter and a few more EX abilities while in swarm form but the WS ranger has more versatility and can grab feats like Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability. Granted up until level 9 I think Swarm Shifter has a clear advantage so the +1 LA makes sense.

If we want to compare something people have been suggesting lets look at Necropoliton Swarm Shifter psion to Necropoliton City Shape Druid, the swarm shifter is clearly ahead of the druid until level 8 when the druid picks up enhanced wild shape and Sandform and given the fact that it can cast while in any shapes it is balanced out and after this level the druid clearly starts pulling ahead depending on how its using the spells. By level 12 when druid gets swarm form the druid has a clear overarching power advantage to swarm shifter psion because of the simple fact swarm shifting is only useful as a panic button on the psion whereas the druid can stay in swarm form all day blasting spells or change into something else that is more suitable.

In either case I am not seeing any jump in swam shifter's power level due to having access to extra forms.

[Metastachydium]

At the same time I don't really see much of a power difference between say Necropoliton wild shape ranger 6/master of flies 3 and Necropoliton Swarm Shifter Ranger 9. I think level 9 is where the swarm shifter and WS ranger balance out; swarm shaper has healing from swarm shifter and a few more EX abilities while in swarm form but the WS ranger has more versatility and can grab feats like Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability.

And what's stopping a swarm shifter from taking wild shape ranger levels?

[liquidformat]

And what's stopping a swarm shifter from taking wild shape ranger levels?

Nothing I don't think it really makes a difference in the comparison. The only difference is the wild shape ranger/MoF utilizes wild shape when taking swarm form and the swarm shifter doesn't, so for example couldn't leverage wild feats in swarm form.

On a side note Warshaper is rather amusing for a swarm shifter, they can gain claw attacks and such in swarm form :smallbiggrin:

I actually would probably go warforged WS ranger/Master of Flies over necropoliton swarm shifter. After somewhere between level 5 to 8 swarm form of the shifter is only useful as a panic button, out of combat healing, and maybe scouting. In combat at that point you aren't making a meaningful contribution when you swarm form, sure you are hard to kill (unless there is a caster...) but you are easily ignorable.

[Debatra]

And the winner is +1/+1/+0. Tomb Mote coming up.

[Debatra]

Tomb Mote
https://i.imgur.com/zjEb6GB.jpg

Size & Type: Tiny Undead
Space/Reach: 2.5'/0'
HD: 3
Speed: 20', Swim 20'
Ability Scores: Str -2, Dex +6, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +10, one penalty
Natural Armor: 3
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4 plus disease)
Skill List: Hide, Move Silently
Body Shape: ("vaguely") Humanoid
Speech (Languages): No (understands Common and Abyssal)
CR: 2
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

So this is apparently what we can do with the loose leftover bits when we're done reanimating each individual piece of a corpse. "animated accumulations of tomb litter - shards of bone, lone teeth, matted hair, bits of shattered tombstone, and grave dirt.")

DR 2/cold iron OR magic is just as irrelevant as any other DR/magic, as are most diseases. 1d3 days and a Charisma-based Fortitude save to avoid 1d6 Str damage.

That said though, the Tomb Mote also has supernatural Quickness, getting an extra Standard or Move action each round. Not a lot of creatures can inherently mess with the action economy. We gave Chokers +2 (and they also have 3 RHD), but those also had a bit more going for them.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not a fan of non-template undead, I think I've made that fairly clear, but an extra standard or move action by default is pretty awesome. Cleric shouldn't be too hard, actually.