Graverobber Mk2

[MrStabby]

So there was a thread here that caught my eye:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631462-WIP-Darkest-Dungeon-inspired-Grave-Robber-sub-class

I thought that the grave robber was a pretty fun idea for a subclass, but the discussion above was about one very specific grave robber, so I thought rather than derail that I would start my own.

The Grave Robber

Many rogues steal jewels, even more steal gold but a few daring souls delve deeper. In the crypts and catcombs accross the land the most audacious burglers of all steal treasure indended to never see the light of day again.

Know your Mark

There is litle point in robbing empty graves. Grave Robbers have an uncanny knack for understanding the culture and faith behind disposal of riches. From 3rd level whenever you make an int(history) ir Int(religion) check you may double your proficiency bonus.

Well Warded

A Grave Robber knows the hazards they face and prepares for them with a series of wards. These may be trinkets aquired in back alleys, charms, talismans or minor spells. Whatever seems to work. At third level the Grave Robber gets the Rabbit's Foot Talisman and two other wards of their choice. Each ward has a passive ability and a set of activated abilities. The passive ability may only be used until you use the activated ability and then becomes ineffective. Whenever you have access to a higher level ward you may use it instead to provide the effect of a lower level ward; this still consumes its use for the day. All wards are recovered after a long rest and you regain the benefits of the passive ability. Whenever you cast a spell through a ward you don't need to provide any of the components or to concentrate on the spell and your spellcasting ability is intelligence.

You gain an additional ward of your choice at levels 9, 13 and 17. At level 9 your wards become Journeyman wards, at level 13 they become Enhanced wards and at level 17 they become masterwork wards.



Name
Ward
Journeyman Ward
Enhanced Ward
Masterwork Ward


Rabbit's Foot Ward
Passive ability:you gain a +1 bonus to all your saves
Activated Ability: You may add an additional d6 to the result of 1 failed save
Activated Ability: You may add an additional d12 to the result of 1 failed save
Activated Ability: You may chose to pass one failed save


Sigil of Dawn
Passive Ability: You have resistance to poison and necrotic damage
Activated Ability: As an action you may remove one disease or poison from a creature you touch
Activated Ability: As an action you may remove a curse from a creature you touch
Activated Ability: As an action you may end a spell on a creature you touch


Mark of the Shield
Passive Ability: You have advantage on any perception or investigation checks pertaining to undead or constructs
Activated Ability: As a bonus action you may cause all undeadand constructs to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you for the next minute
Acivated Ability: As a bonus action you may give yourself advantage on all saves against charm and fear effects for the next minute
Activated Ability: As an action you may end the effect of any fear, charm possession effect on any number of creatures you can see


Talisman of the Eye
Passive Ability: You gain darkvision to 30ft; if you already have darkvision the radius is increased by 15ft
Activated Ability:As an action you may cast Detect Magic
Activated Ability: As a bonus action you gain blindsight to a radius of 20ft for one minute
Activated Ability: As an action you may improve your sight to see invisible creatures the true form of shapechanged creatures and ito the etherial plane to a radius of 30ft for 10 minutes


Glyph of the Cryptstalker
Passive Abiliy: Your movement speed increases by 5ft
Activated Ability: As a bonus action, whenever you take the dash action within the next minute, you no longer provoke opportunity attacks
Activated Ability: As an action you gain a burrow speed of 5ft for the next minute
Activated Ability: As an action you are able to move into the etherial plane and step through solid objects for the next minute. Whilst doing so you take 2d10 points of force damage if you end your turn inside an object


Binding of the Despoiler
Passive Abiliy:Whenever you roll an unmodified 19 or 20 as an attack roll against a construct or undead crature it counts as a critical hit
Activated Ability:As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak ritual censuring undead and constructs. Each undead or construct that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.

A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can't take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there's nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.
Activated Ability:As a reaction, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack you may add d8+half your rogue level to the damage
Activated Ability: Whenever you score a critical hit against a creature that creature is afraid of you for the next minute.


Oracle of Kel'tharis
Passive Abiliy: You know the spells Comprehend Languages, Identify, and Augury and can cast them as rituals
Actiavted Ability:When you come accross a ritual spell, either written down or from someone who can teach you, if that spell is 3rd level or lower you may add it to the the list of spells you can cast with this ward.
Actiavted Ability:When you come accross a ritual spell, either written down or from someone who can teach you, if that spell is 5th level or lower you may add it to the the list of spells you can cast with this ward. Actiavted Ability:When you come accross a ritual spell, either written down or from someone who can teach you, you may add it to the the list of spells you can cast with this ward.








Hexproof
Your delving into the dark places in the world has exposed you to many hazards and you have built up some resistance. At level 9 you become immune to any effect that would lower your maximum hit points or reduce any of your ability scores. In addition you gain one hit point per level of rogue, both retroactively and going forwards.

Loaded with Trinkets
As an experienced burgler you know the perils of being unprepared for the hazards ahead and have contingency plans in place to replenish your protective magics. From level 13 You may now recover one of your wards whenever you take a short rest.


Mysteries of the crypt
Petty thieves pry the tarnished baubles of the fingers of the recently departed. Great thieves have greater marks and you are no exception. Your larceny extends beyond the physical; your knowledge of religion enables you to steal the soul of the dead and to raid crypts of the most secret and forbidden knowledge. At level 17 this power manifests itself as the ability to cast spells. When you finish a long rest you may select up to three spells on the cleric spell list of first or second level. You may cast one of these spells as if you knew it without using a spell slot whenever you use the activated ability of a Ward.



Design Intent

This is intended to will two roles. One is to be a rogue with a bit of a divine flavour to it through a lot of protective magics. It is also intented to make the rogue a little bit more of a tank/support chracter in play, boosting party survivability. The intent is thatpart of the challange of play will be around using resourcesat the optimal time - not just using them at the best time for the ability, but also factoring in the loss of the passive ability a ward will give as well.

I wanted the Wards to be the main class feature carying most of the weight of the class. The non ward abilities are not quie ribbons, but are probably not that powerful by themselves.

My vision of graves, tombs and crypts is of a places haunted by the undead but also by guardian statues, ageless golems and protective magic. I am hoping that whilst some of these features are pretty central to the class the way in which the mechanics support combatting them also means that they will be useful in other encounters and you will not be too penalised if these enemies don't show up.



Balance Intent

The rogue is a pretty powerful class early on. Sneak attack damage and cunning action mean a great damage boost and a greatuse of bonus actions before anyone else pick up a feat or 2nd attack (barring variant humans of course). I also believe the rogue can struggle a bit at higher levels - the things their skills can do, spells can also do - often more reliably and at higher levels there are more spell slotsto spare. Of course there are some exceptions in some campaigns - a thief's use magic device skill will shine in some campaigns and so on. But generally speaking I wanted a set of subclass abilities that were modest at level 3 but were appropriate to a character playing alongside wish etc. at level 17. There is kind of a quadratic progression of power intended with getting more wards and each ward becoming more powerful.

In terms of peak power I looked to the Arcane Trickster who is sporting level 4 spells at the end and used this as kind of a benchmark. There are a lot of tradeoffs on both sides here - versatility, choice of different effects, passive abilities on top...

I still think there is a bit of something missing from the class... the abilities feel a bit niche you I could see that sometimes you just wouldn't feel as powerful as you might be.

[GalacticAxekick]

I generally think its a bad idea to treat items as class features. It raises storytelling questions like "Where did you get that?" and raises gameplay concerns like "What use are you if you lose that?"

If you decide the feature-items must be discovered (for story's sake), they become frustrating to reconcile with gameplay ("You cant level up until you hunt down your class features")

And if you decide the feature-items cant be lost or cant be used by other creatures (for gameplay's sake), they become impossible to reconcile with story events like having your gear confiscated or studied.

I would personally introduce all of these items as magic items, and write the Grave Robber as a magic item specialist.

But if your table doesnt mind these items appearing out of thin air and staying glued to the rogue, this looks like a unique, fun and balanced subclass!

[GalacticAxekick]

The rogue is a pretty powerful class early on. Sneak attack damage and cunning action mean a great damage boost [...]
I still think there is a bit of something missing from the class... the abilities feel a bit niche you I could see that sometimes you just wouldn't feel as powerful as you might be.One more thing!

Rogues are actually pretty weak early on. They need Sneak Attack just to keep up with other classes, and they struggle to get it without putting themselves in harm's way, which means they lag behind in damage.

For example, a 1st level Rogue with 14 AC and 11 hit points can deal 10 (2d6+3) damage on a regular basis, or 13.5 (3d6+3) circumstatially with Sneak Attack. Meanwhile a monk with 16 AC and 11 hit points can deal 13 (1d8+1d4+6) damage every single round, and a fighter with 16 AC and 12 hit points can deal 13 (2d6+6) every single round.

Every rogue needs a feature that either makes Sneak Attack easier to score or more rewarding.

[saucerhead]

I like it. I am thinking some of the wards in combination could be very effective at first glance, but it would have to play tested to see all the ins and outs. Hexproof isn't really resistances the way it is written, it's straight up immunity to fairly strong undead effects. In some campaigns that could be everything, even if it only comes on at 9th level. I don't know how that would balance out. I still like the overall flavour of the design though.

[MrStabby]

I generally think its a bad idea to treat items as class features. It raises storytelling questions like "Where did you get that?" and raises gameplay concerns like "What use are you if you lose that?"

If you decide the feature-items must be discovered (for story's sake), they become frustrating to reconcile with gameplay ("You cant level up until you hunt down your class features")

And if you decide the feature-items cant be lost or cant be used by other creatures (for gameplay's sake), they become impossible to reconcile with story events like having your gear confiscated or studied.

I would personally introduce all of these items as magic items, and write the Grave Robber as a magic item specialist.

But if your table doesnt mind these items appearing out of thin air and staying glued to the rogue, this looks like a unique, fun and balanced subclass!

Yeah, totally agree with this. I was thinking more in the Artificer line that you create a lot of the Wards. That said, I don't really like the artificer from an RP prespective because it is less cool to own awesome stuff as it is to be awesome. And, as you point out,there are some additional issue around what happens when items are removed/transfered etc..






One more thing!

Rogues are actually pretty weak early on. They need Sneak Attack just to keep up with other classes, and they struggle to get it without putting themselves in harm's way, which means they lag behind in damage.

For example, a 1st level Rogue with 14 AC and 11 hit points can deal 10 (2d6+3) damage on a regular basis, or 13.5 (3d6+3) circumstatially with Sneak Attack. Meanwhile a monk with 16 AC and 11 hit points can deal 13 (1d8+1d4+6) damage every single round, and a fighter with 16 AC and 12 hit points can deal 13 (2d6+6) every single round.

Every rogue needs a feature that either makes Sneak Attack easier to score or more rewarding.

So I have never found rogues to be lacking at the low levels - in part I think that this is because Dex is such a strong stat and rogues are sogood at using it. Things like strength based fighters and paladins don't get to pick up plate mail early (probably) due to the prohibative cost and that extra round (or two) of combat you can get through a high initiative and being able to use a ranged weapon rather than having to close with an enemy is pretty great.

That said, it is an interesting question as to when and why rogues are strong/weak and so the subclass can address it. Getting sneak attack is easy enough in most combats (in my view) if you have at least one melee character so a subclass should get something to help with those party compositions where this isn't the case. Not quite sure how to incorporate this in - although I guess it might already be there. If there are no front-liners then you are more likely to have a caster rich party in which case your save bonuses will be quite nice for any area of effect spells thrown about.

If this is weaker at lower levels a simple solution would be to just increment the number of wards by 1. A bit more power at all levels whist retaining a smooth, simple progression. This would also solve one of the other issues I think this has - it is a bit passive. Whilst you might stack up various bonuses from your wards, you would only get to make active choices about your character doing something different at level 7 and even then only 3 times per day.

Better still might be another level 3 ability that gives you another at will use of an action or bonus action. I am thinking maybe an ability that lets you force a Dex save instead of an attack roll - in my personal vision of the type of monsters you might find in a Crypt/Mausoleum/Pyramids we are talking Golems, Mummies, Zombies, skeletons... most of which are not that great at dex saves. This gives a thematic basis for an ability that would be useful outside of fighting these enemies when facing anything with really heavy armour. If it was a Dex save and needed an ally next to the target to do attack + sneak attack damage on a fail then it also ticks the box for "Every rogue needs a feature that either makes Sneak Attack easier to score"? It lets you do it even whilst blinded, restrained or otherwise suffering from disadvantage (also making it a bit different from things like the swashbuckler ability that deals with the opposite requirement of the ability).


I like it. I am thinking some of the wards in combination could be very effective at first glance, but it would have to play tested to see all the ins and outs. Hexproof isn't really resistances the way it is written, it's straight up immunity to fairly strong undead effects. In some campaigns that could be everything, even if it only comes on at 9th level. I don't know how that would balance out. I still like the overall flavour of the design though.

Yeah, from a fluff perspective this was written poorly. There is no "resistance" there from a mechanical perspective. In terms of something that "could be everything", how do you think it compares with things like the devotion Paladin aura that grants immunity to charm effects or elf/half elf immunity to sleep? I mean, genuinely - not as a rhetorical question. I can see an issue if it is too widespread but I had thought this would be narrower than charm spells. This needn't make it good as arguably it is a poorly designed ability on the devotion Paladin. I had thought it might be less bad as these abilities don't tend to be all that happens - HP loss will still take place alongside lowered stats or max HP drain, so the rogue is not ignoring enemies - just one of their ancilliary abilities. Still worth revisiting though.

Any combinations in particular

[saucerhead]

...In terms of something that "could be everything", how do you think it compares with things like the devotion Paladin aura that grants immunity to charm effects or elf/half elf immunity to sleep? I mean, genuinely - not as a rhetorical question. I can see an issue if it is too widespread but I had thought this would be narrower than charm spells. This needn't make it good as arguably it is a poorly designed ability on the devotion Paladin. I had thought it might be less bad as these abilities don't tend to be all that happens - HP loss will still take place alongside lowered stats or max HP drain, so the rogue is not ignoring enemies - just one of their ancilliary abilities. Still worth revisiting though.

Any combinations in particular

I meant if the campaign is built mainly with undead, like a ravenloft-ish one, but your Grave Robber doesn't get immunity until level 9 and CoS only goes to 10th. In most other campaigns it is a narrower effect. Compared to a devotion paladin, you are correct. The Grave Robber isn't giving the whole party immunity or even a buff until maybe the mark of the shield reaches masterwork level.

The combination I noticed off the top was the mark of the shield at 9th level, along with the immunity at the same level, makes your Grave Robber a vampire hunter. I didn't see if there was a way to change out the previously learned wards like invocations, but if you replaced the rabbit's foot with the Binding of the Despoiler that would stack up even further.

[MrStabby]

I meant if the campaign is built mainly with undead, like a ravenloft-ish one, but your Grave Robber doesn't get immunity until level 9 and CoS only goes to 10th. In most other campaigns it is a narrower effect. Compared to a devotion paladin, you are correct. The Grave Robber isn't giving the whole party immunity or even a buff until maybe the mark of the shield reaches masterwork level.

The combination I noticed off the top was the mark of the shield at 9th level, along with the immunity at the same level, makes your Grave Robber a vampire hunter. I didn't see if there was a way to change out the previously learned wards like invocations, but if you replaced the rabbit's foot with the Binding of the Despoiler that would stack up even further.

Yeah,if undead feature heavily then a class focussed on stealing from the undead will be a bit overpowered. I am not sure what the standard acceptable level of imbalance is though. A paladin with divine smite and access to protection from evil and good spell will give a vampire pause for thought, even without devotion auras.

I am wondering if it is a bad thing that you can build a potent vampire hunter from the subclass. It might be bad, rogue might not be the right class for it, but as a crypt delver there could be worse.

I guess I should maybe make some of the wards a bit more generic.

EDIT: so I realised that there is no source of radiant damage... so not really a good vampire hunter. Then I wanted to add an ability to give radiant damage. Just as an instinctive thing. I think I should maybe resist, but not sure if I can. I am already thinking of some kind of crypt-delver's lantern that adds illumination and potentially a cone of radiant damage at higher levels...

[saucerhead]

EDIT: so I realised that there is no source of radiant damage... so not really a good vampire hunter. Then I wanted to add an ability to give radiant damage. Just as an instinctive thing. I think I should maybe resist, but not sure if I can. I am already thinking of some kind of crypt-delver's lantern that adds illumination and potentially a cone of radiant damage at higher levels...

You are right, and they could still be charmed by vampires too. (Stinking vampires.)

I still like the idea of a not exactly holy rogue because he still steals from the dead, but a devout rogue mixed with a bit of cleric though. It makes a for a different flavour than a trickster cleric/arcane trickster mix.

[MrStabby]

You are right, and they could still be charmed by vampires too. (Stinking vampires.)

I still like the idea of a not exactly holy rogue because he still steals from the dead, but a devout rogue mixed with a bit of cleric though. It makes a for a different flavour than a trickster cleric/arcane trickster mix.

I guess the fluff could flex a bit. A lawful good aligned crypt raider looking to retrieve the Holy Bones of a Saint to repel evil... The corpse of a Villain is causing evil spirits to rise in the land and there is a need to sneak into the crypt to end it...

[MrStabby]

One more thing!


Every rogue needs a feature that either makes Sneak Attack easier to score or more rewarding.

So I have been thinking about this... and there is a point here.

So people chose to play a rogue if they are playing this subclass. So if they are playing a rogue there is something about the class that drew them to it...

And in turn the other subclasses generally deliver. Assassin doubles down on that one attack that deals massive damage and gives additional source of advantage for sneak attack. Arcane trickster can turn you invisible, and support your slight of hand with an invisible mage hand. Scout doubles down on the expertise AND the mobility side and so on.

So far I added some expertise, but I think that there needs to be a bit more of a nod towards the other things that make people want to play a rogue. Not like, a huge ability, but just something really rogue-like.

What is the essence of the rogue class that this could build on?

Single, powerful strikes?
Expertise/skill-monkey?
Mobility?
Stealth?