How many feats does an 18th level fighter need to stomp an 18th level druid?

[Aharon]

Edited for clarity:
The title is a bit clickbaity - the point of the thread is to find out how many feats are needed to reach power similar to a high practical optimization druid, linked
here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)).
I think the thread already established that infinite feats definitely works - now it is about finding a lower bound :smallsmile:


The "Limiting feats" thread got me thinking what a fighter with all the feats could actually achieve. And setting high targets never hurts, so let's try and find a way to make this fighter defeat Nyeron Endas and his animal companion Lorch, from Team Solars (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)).

I'd propose we start out seeing where infinite feats can get us, and then narrow it down if we notice that infinite feats make this winnable and less feats are required. (Which might already be a stretch!)

At infinite feats, the fighter gets infinite hitpoints via toughness, and infinite uses of stunning fist with infinite DC (Extra Stunning, Improved Stunning Fist), as well as infinite natural armor and all skills as class skills and enough skill points to put one rank in each, via the Educated and Open-Minded feats.
I was thinking that a race with a CON-Bonus is best, with CON 20 the fighter can take an infinite number of Roll With Its (Savage Species) for DR infinite/-
The fighter also gets all the Item Creation feats and the cost reduction feats, so access to roughly double WBL.

So defensive doesn't look too bad.

Offensive, however, is different. Not completely necessary, but I wanted a win (if possible) also be achieved via something vaguely "fightery", i.e. not just casting spells.

His reach is 20 ft. via feats, which might be further increased (Deformity(Tall), Extended Reach, Inhuman Reach
This could be improved by another +5 ft. via the psionic power Reach.

My thinking went towards trying to use a combination of subterfuge (Darkstalker feat + Collar of umbral Metamorphosis for Hide in Plain Sight), combined with short range teleport (Quickened Dimension Leap from the Dragonmark feat line) and grappling (+14 bonuses from various feats, Improved Grab from Illithid Heritage, Grab and still threaten from Multigrab, Greater Multigrab.

Win initiative (+14 via several feats, up to 20 luck rerolls), use dimension leap to get close (swift action), take a five-ft. step, activate antimagic torc, Nyeron loses all his magic defenses, paralyze him with Freezing the Lifeblood, coup de grace him with a standard action in the next round...
Problem is, Spot for Nyeron is +85, and I haven't seen anything our fighter could use to increase his hide to that level.

I'm very sure that there are many things I overlooked - please help me win this.

[Aharon]

There are surprisingly few feats that give bonuses to hide - Aereni Skill Focus + Skill Focus for +6, Stealthy for another +2, Shadow from a 3.0 source (Masters of the Wild, printed after Song and Silence which has another version) for another +2, and Scorpion's instinct for another +2.

That makes a total of +30+Dex, against a +85 Spot...

[sreservoir]

You can get +Infinite insight on "one attack roll, saving throw, ability check, or skill check" from Chosen of Evil (EE 12) by taking 1 Con damage as an immediate action, just take infinite copies of Deformity (Skin) (HH 121).

Oh, and since you're doing this evil thing anyway, you can go ham with BoVD sacrifice with +Infinite to Knowledge (religion).

[Aharon]

You can get +Infinite insight on "one attack roll, saving throw, ability check, or skill check" from Chosen of Evil (EE 12) by taking 1 Con damage as an immediate action, just take infinite copies of Deformity (Skin) (HH 121).

Oh, and since you're doing this evil thing anyway, you can go ham with BoVD sacrifice with +Infinite to Knowledge (religion).

Ah, I missed that there are ways to get an infinite number of vile feats, thanks.
Okay, the Sacrifices would make for infinite wealth and solve everything.

However, one check per round doesn't suffice - the character needs to move, so they would also need move silently. This could be solved with items, probably - just stacking different kinds of bonuses.

So I think we have conclusively shown that an infinite feats fighter can beat a Tier one character (unless someone finds a flaw in the proposed tactic).

Since we went infinite on one ressource (feats), this isn't too surprising.

Possible next instances:
Set number of feats per level (100? 50? 10?)
Feats that can be taken more than once can only be taken once per level.

[Biggus]

At infinite feats, the fighter gets infinite hitpoints via toughness, and infinite uses of stunning fist with infinite DC (Extra Stunning, Improved Stunning Fist), as well as infinite natural armor and all skills as class skills and enough skill points to put one rank in each, via the Educated and Open-Minded feats.


How is an 18th-level Fighter qualifying for Improved Stunning Fist? It's an epic feat isn't it?

[Gavinfoxx]

Could you do it with infinite feats? I'm not convinced that you could manage it with 'all the useful feats that you qualify for, taken whenever you want, from levels 1-18'?

[Aharon]

How is an 18th-level Fighter qualifying for Improved Stunning Fist? It's an epic feat isn't it?

Oh damn, you're right - I missed the [Epic] tag. Yes, so this part doesn't work - there are a few other feats like ability focus, but they don't pump the DC to infinite.


Could you do it with infinite feats? I'm not convinced that you could manage it with 'all the useful feats that you qualify for, taken whenever you want, from levels 1-18'?

It works with the trick @sreservoir proposed. Infinite feats also means infinite vile feats, because one of them can be taken infinite times, and that means infinite wealth for crafting via an infinite skill check knowledge religion for sacrifices, breaking WBL with feats instead of candles of invocation :smallwink:

[ciopo]

Oh damn, you're right - I missed the [Epic] tag. Yes, so this part doesn't work - there are a few other feats like ability focus, but they don't pump the DC to infinite.



It works with the trick @sreservoir proposed. Infinite feats also means infinite vile feats, because one of them can be taken infinite times, and that means infinite wealth for crafting via an infinite skill check knowledge religion for sacrifices, breaking WBL with feats instead of candles of invocation :smallwink:

I'd argue it's not a "fighter trick", however, so does it count for your challenge?

[RandomPeasant]

Doesn't this basically come down to how much you're allowing the Druid to optimize? The Druid can natively cast shapechange and easily get wish, allowing them infinite power. Whether the Fighter can beat the Druid basically comes down to A) do have a lower optimization ceiling for the Druid than the Fighter or B) weird arguments about relative infinities.

[Darg]

Minimum of 23 and winning initiative. Magical training, alacratous cogitation, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, earth spell, and extra spell slot 1-9 twice.

Or we can say the druid isn't actually optimized nor has meta knowledge and the fighter is more prepared and is sponsored by a kingdom while having use magic device as a class skill maxed out and buffed to use his time stop scroll upon winning initiative and summarily defeating the druid before they can do anything.

Or we can also say that the druid doesn't have meta knowledge and the fighter is able to catch the druid off guard while they have a poor selection of defensive spells and can't react while the fighter blows them up in the first action because they do 200+ damage with a single charge (not necessarily a pounce charge).

[Aharon]

I'd argue it's not a "fighter trick", however, so does it count for your challenge?

It's more about feats than about the fighter - fighter just gets a lot of combat-related feats other classes don't have access to.


Doesn't this basically come down to how much you're allowing the Druid to optimize? The Druid can natively cast shapechange and easily get wish, allowing them infinite power. Whether the Fighter can beat the Druid basically comes down to A) do have a lower optimization ceiling for the Druid than the Fighter or B) weird arguments about relative infinities.


Minimum of 23 and winning initiative. Magical training, alacratous cogitation, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, earth spell, and extra spell slot 1-9 twice.

Or we can say the druid isn't actually optimized nor has meta knowledge and the fighter is more prepared and is sponsored by a kingdom while having use magic device as a class skill maxed out and buffed to use his time stop scroll upon winning initiative and summarily defeating the druid before they can do anything.

Or we can also say that the druid doesn't have meta knowledge and the fighter is able to catch the druid off guard while they have a poor selection of defensive spells and can't react while the fighter blows them up in the first action because they do 200+ damage with a single charge (not necessarily a pounce charge).

Infinite was just as a baseline - now that we know it's possible with infinite, the goal is to reduce the needed number of feats.

The druid used as opponent is high practical optimization and linked in the first post.

[Endarire]

On the plus side, an Old+ Dragonwrought Kobold may qualify for Epic feats being a Dragon and an [EPIC] creature. This may help the Fighter - but it also helps the Druid.

And a Druid18 has shapechange (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook) at this point. I'm unsure how you can Fighter counter that.

[Darg]

It's more about feats than about the fighter - fighter just gets a lot of combat-related feats other classes don't have access to.





Infinite was just as a baseline - now that we know it's possible with infinite, the goal is to reduce the needed number of feats.

The druid used as opponent is high practical optimization and linked in the first post.

Let's put it this way, how much of that is pre-spell activation? Is the druid going to walk around with spells activated on rotation day in and day out? Not really. Most likely the druid is going to be without spells activated as some point or likely without the whole suite. All the fighter has to do is initiate combat before the druid gets the full buff suite out, win the initiative, hit the druid, and the druid is dead.

A druid isn't going to be casting shorter duration spells throughout a random day just because. I know it's enticing to have an opponent fully prepared and ready for an imminent honorable duel, but that isn't how that fighter got to level 18 in the first place. I also have to question how legitimate the build is when the spells per day includes the bonus from owl's insight which only lasts for an hour. I don't care to actually dissect it to find out. Another factor to consider is if the druid is capable of fully buffing before hand, what is preventing the fighter from getting buffs from allies beforehand?

What if the fighter has AMF on himself? The fighter gets within 10 ft of the druid and the druid implodes.

[Endarire]

Considering a Druid18 can be in Dire Tortoise Wild Shape form for 18 hours at a time without items, and with items he can be in that form longer, and considering this hypothetical Druid may be paranoid, I'm not seeing how the Fighter wins this one - AMF or not.

[RandomPeasant]

The druid used as opponent is high practical optimization and linked in the first post.

But that Druid can still abuse shapechange to their heart's content. A Druid doesn't need to dedicate any build resources to breaking the game with shapechange, they can just wake up in the morning and decide to do that. That's what makes shapechange so powerful. What you are effectively asking is "if we don't allow the Druid to do things he can to do stop the Fighter from being able to win, can the Fighter win". And the answer to that is probably yes, but it's not really a very interesting question.

[Darg]

AMF suppresses wildshape. It suppresses all magic within the area. The most the druid can do while AMF is active is run away until the AMF runs out. If the fighter gets within 10 ft the druid is done for. With the standstill feat and the fighter's high BAB it's very unlikely the druid can possibly escape. Withdraw is a full-round action and therefore still doesn't help the druid escape.

So it all comes down to how the fight starts. If the druid starts at a range where they can ping the fighter with ranged attacks without the fighter being able to run into range then they win. If the fighter catches the druid by surprise within 30ft or more depending on speed or the fight starts within 10 ft then the fighter wins regardless.

The point is to find out how to stomp a druid. No matter what there is going to be situational advantage to any combat and arguing over that single facet is simply going to be circular logic.


But that Druid can still abuse shapechange to their heart's content. A Druid doesn't need to dedicate any build resources to breaking the game with shapechange, they can just wake up in the morning and decide to do that. That's what makes shapechange so powerful. What you are effectively asking is "if we don't allow the Druid to do things he can to do stop the Fighter from being able to win, can the Fighter win". And the answer to that is probably yes, but it's not really a very interesting question.

To be fair, that is how any 1v1 fight works. You win initiative and your opponent can't attack because you slaughtered them in a single action time span.

[Karl Aegis]

Between Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, and Thousand Faces, our poor Fighter has no way of finding the Druid without resorting to magic.

[Seerow]

If you're giving unlimited feats without a restriction to combat feats, then the Fighter comes in as a fighter with infinite feats, and also 9th level spells.

Magical Training, Earth Spell Extra Slot shenanigans gets you to 9th level spellcasting. Proceed to take all of the "Extra Slot" and "Extra Spell Known" feats you want to spontaneously cast all of the spells forever.

[sreservoir]

If you're giving unlimited feats without a restriction to combat feats, then the Fighter comes in as a fighter with infinite feats, and also 9th level spells.

Magical Training, Earth Spell Extra Slot shenanigans gets you to 9th level spellcasting. Proceed to take all of the "Extra Slot" and "Extra Spell Known" feats you want to spontaneously cast all of the spells forever.

Hold on a second, how are we getting Earth Spell off the ground? It requires the spell to already be heightened, and you don't even have 1st-level slots.

[Seerow]

Hold on a second, how are we getting Earth Spell off the ground? It requires the spell to already be heightened, and you don't even have 1st-level slots.

Precocious spellcaster for a second level slot I think is the normal method.

[Darg]

Hold on a second, how are we getting Earth Spell off the ground? It requires the spell to already be heightened, and you don't even have 1st-level slots.

Magical Training (wizard), Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten, Earth spell, and a friendly wizard to write higher level spells into your spellbook for you (arguably because you have a spellbook you can write them yourself). You can now cast 1st level spells as 2nd level and thereby qualify you for stepping stone spell slot feats to fuel Versatile spellcaster>heighten progression.

[Aharon]

On the plus side, an Old+ Dragonwrought Kobold may qualify for Epic feats being a Dragon and an [EPIC] creature. This may help the Fighter - but it also helps the Druid.

And a Druid18 has shapechange (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook) at this point. I'm unsure how you can Fighter counter that.

Well, with epic feats, that would open up infinite deflection, infinite spell resistance and infinite stats via feats. This is more the power of Epic feats in conjunction with Dragonwrought Kobold, than the power of feats.
The point of this thread is to see what can be done with feats, and how many feats would be needed to equal a spellcaster.


Let's put it this way, how much of that is pre-spell activation? Is the druid going to walk around with spells activated on rotation day in and day out? Not really. Most likely the druid is going to be without spells activated as some point or likely without the whole suite. All the fighter has to do is initiate combat before the druid gets the full buff suite out, win the initiative, hit the druid, and the druid is dead.

A druid isn't going to be casting shorter duration spells throughout a random day just because. I know it's enticing to have an opponent fully prepared and ready for an imminent honorable duel, but that isn't how that fighter got to level 18 in the first place. I also have to question how legitimate the build is when the spells per day includes the bonus from owl's insight which only lasts for an hour. I don't care to actually dissect it to find out. Another factor to consider is if the druid is capable of fully buffing before hand, what is preventing the fighter from getting buffs from allies beforehand?

What if the fighter has AMF on himself? The fighter gets within 10 ft of the druid and the druid implodes.

The druid is going to walk around with all these spells, the way to do so is described in the thread the character is from. The fighter doesn't get buffs other than those he can WBL himself, because the druid just serves as a measuring points, and the fighter as the chassis for feats ;-)


Considering a Druid18 can be in Dire Tortoise Wild Shape form for 18 hours at a time without items, and with items he can be in that form longer, and considering this hypothetical Druid may be paranoid, I'm not seeing how the Fighter wins this one - AMF or not.

Let's assume for now that the Druid has the given stat-block - shapechanged into a Solar, not a Dire Tortoise. If a less than infinite feats fighter wins, we can still make the challenge harder.



But that Druid can still abuse shapechange to their heart's content. A Druid doesn't need to dedicate any build resources to breaking the game with shapechange, they can just wake up in the morning and decide to do that. That's what makes shapechange so powerful. What you are effectively asking is "if we don't allow the Druid to do things he can to do stop the Fighter from being able to win, can the Fighter win". And the answer to that is probably yes, but it's not really a very interesting question.

Well, I would put the question differently:
"In a high practical optimization setting, how many feat do you need to equal or surpass the benefit of spells?"
I find that question interesting :smallsmile:


AMF suppresses wildshape. It suppresses all magic within the area. The most the druid can do while AMF is active is run away until the AMF runs out. If the fighter gets within 10 ft the druid is done for. With the standstill feat and the fighter's high BAB it's very unlikely the druid can possibly escape. Withdraw is a full-round action and therefore still doesn't help the druid escape.

So it all comes down to how the fight starts. If the druid starts at a range where they can ping the fighter with ranged attacks without the fighter being able to run into range then they win. If the fighter catches the druid by surprise within 30ft or more depending on speed or the fight starts within 10 ft then the fighter wins regardless.

The point is to find out how to stomp a druid. No matter what there is going to be situational advantage to any combat and arguing over that single facet is simply going to be circular logic.



To be fair, that is how any 1v1 fight works. You win initiative and your opponent can't attack because you slaughtered them in a single action time span.

So would you propose adding more to the scenario, like how the arena looks like?


Between Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, and Thousand Faces, our poor Fighter has no way of finding the Druid without resorting to magic.

That's a good point, I'll have to think about that.


If you're giving unlimited feats without a restriction to combat feats, then the Fighter comes in as a fighter with infinite feats, and also 9th level spells.

Magical Training, Earth Spell Extra Slot shenanigans gets you to 9th level spellcasting. Proceed to take all of the "Extra Slot" and "Extra Spell Known" feats you want to spontaneously cast all of the spells forever.


Hold on a second, how are we getting Earth Spell off the ground? It requires the spell to already be heightened, and you don't even have 1st-level slots.


Precocious spellcaster for a second level slot I think is the normal method.


Magical Training (wizard), Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten, Earth spell, and a friendly wizard to write higher level spells into your spellbook for you (arguably because you have a spellbook you can write them yourself). You can now cast 1st level spells as 2nd level and thereby qualify you for stepping stone spell slot feats to fuel Versatile spellcaster>heighten progression.

Well, we've already established that unlimited feats can win (either with the infinite sacrifices trick, or the dragonwrought infinite epic feats trick, or with access to spells).
What would the next step be?
Can it still be done at 100 feats per level? 50? 10?

[Bucky]

The logical next step would be calculating how many feats the already-mentioned methods actually use in the fight against the benchmark.

[RandomPeasant]

To be fair, that is how any 1v1 fight works. You win initiative and your opponent can't attack because you slaughtered them in a single action time span.

That's hyperbole. Certainly, highly-optimized (and high level) characters tend towards rocket tag, but it's by no means universal.


"In a high practical optimization setting, how many feat do you need to equal or surpass the benefit of spells?"

Enough that your character no longer counts as "high practical optimization".

[Gavinfoxx]

I think the only way this is interesting is if you restrict access to feats that grant spells or infinite combos...

[Darg]

So would you propose adding more to the scenario, like how the arena looks like?

Well, the best arena would be within an AMF cage.

Beyond that, the fighter has to discover the druid's location which could be difficult. The easiest way is to set up a Judas situation and set up an ambush. If the druid is lured to the fighter's location then the druid only makes a single spot check at maximum distance. Even at 0 ranks the fighter can take 10 and can be invisible. Using a belt of battle, as long as the fighter catches the druid off guard, you can activate the AMF after you close in which increases your engagement distance. A fighter can't fight fair as a druid is simply too strong to fight fair.

Another option is catching the druid off guard, abusing a belt of battle and throwing out a disjunction and an expunge the supernatural to get rid of the druid's wild shape. A high level druid can be caught off guard and survive, but a fighter has to be prepared to even have a chance.

I don't know of any feat that is able to strip the druid of their wild shape ability which is the largest hurdle a fighter has to face. The one ability that can do it has a 30ft range and allows a will save. All the while taking levels in a fairly subpar PRC for the job.


That's hyperbole. Certainly, highly-optimized (and high level) characters tend towards rocket tag, but it's by no means universal.

It's situational. The back and forth of these kinds of topics boils down to how can a fighter have what the druid has and the answer is another question. How much money does the fighter have? Using UMD with infinite money levels the playing field. Otherwise you have to set up scenarios in which the fighter has an advantage strong enough to counter the abilities of the druid. Even in such a situation it generally comes down to who gets to move first, except in such a situation where moving isn't much of an option such as the AMF cage I mentioned earlier.

[Efrate]

He cannot. Barring crazy umd or infinite cheese he has no way to generate an AMF or a disjunction. He cannot catch them flatfooted nor surprise them and does not have the range to one shot them. An ubercharger can punch through the damage easily enough to drop them unconscious which strips the buffs then drown them or something.

Feats are not going to do that. Barring leapfrog casting stuff which is more just yeah i get infinite spells (which i think disqualifies you as a fighter once you go there) feats do not exist which interact with magic in a meaningful way, at least in 3.5.

You can do it in pathfinder no save no immunity daze not mind affecting from outside range, but then you rebuild as pathfinder and dynamics change. 3.5 does not have the options without contorting fighter into something that is not a fighter. Binding does not get you to dantallions awe via feats, but that plus ubercharge plus pounce would do it if you can get in range but thats a lot of binder levels which i think DQs you as a fighter.

[Aharon]

The logical next step would be calculating how many feats the already-mentioned methods actually use in the fight against the benchmark.

hm...
well, we want the character to be skilled. Let's say 55 skills (all skills plus all knowledge skills plus all craft skills plus a few professions) makes 110 feats for Aereni Skill Focus plus skill focus, and 28 feats for getting educated in all the skills, and 11 feats per level to get all the skill points.
That's 336 feats for being supremely skilled.
We don't need all skills for battle, but it probably helps the character to be more well-rounded.
Then it depends on the approach.
Dragonwrought Kobold plus something like 300 feats to gain +1 to each stat 50 times - this yields stats that are superior to those of the druid.
For the vile route, something like an added 100 feats might suffice? Sacrificing at Knowledge Religion checks of 127 yields 381 xp per sacrifice, which gives the character a lot of additional wealth to shore up his weaknesses, and one check at +100 per round is nothing to sneeze at.



I think the only way this is interesting is if you restrict access to feats that grant spells or infinite combos...
Hm... I agree about infinite, I just wanted to create an upper bound. But I don't really see a way of winning if I restrict all access to spells, like the Dragonmarks and the Planar Touchstones? Do you see a way for the fighter to win without any spellcasting/spell-like abilities at all?



He cannot. Barring crazy umd or infinite cheese he has no way to generate an AMF or a disjunction. He cannot catch them flatfooted nor surprise them and does not have the range to one shot them. An ubercharger can punch through the damage easily enough to drop them unconscious which strips the buffs then drown them or something.

Feats are not going to do that. Barring leapfrog casting stuff which is more just yeah i get infinite spells (which i think disqualifies you as a fighter once you go there) feats do not exist which interact with magic in a meaningful way, at least in 3.5.

You can do it in pathfinder no save no immunity daze not mind affecting from outside range, but then you rebuild as pathfinder and dynamics change. 3.5 does not have the options without contorting fighter into something that is not a fighter. Binding does not get you to dantallions awe via feats, but that plus ubercharge plus pounce would do it if you can get in range but thats a lot of binder levels which i think DQs you as a fighter.

For AMF, there's the antimagic torc from Underdark. One-shotting at range is something I hadn't considered yet as an option... Are there ways to reliably deal 645 damage in one round without charging?

[Efrate]

Do not think as a fighter in 3.5. No deadly aim. Sneak attack fighter doesnt get enough d6 over 10/12 attacks to reliably hit that. belt of battle plus hanks with distance plus winning initiative plus rapid shot is not going to do it, even without the fortification negating an entire classes combat shtick. Gun fu level splitting bolts would bit that another infinite thing.

[sreservoir]

I think the only way this is interesting is if you restrict access to feats that grant spells or infinite combos...

Shall we also restrict access to spells that are spells?

[Lans]

Do not think as a fighter in 3.5. No deadly aim. Sneak attack fighter doesnt get enough d6 over 10/12 attacks to reliably hit that. belt of battle plus hanks with distance plus winning initiative plus rapid shot is not going to do it, even without the fortification negating an entire classes combat shtick. Gun fu level splitting bolts would bit that another infinite thing.

Sneak attack fighter with assassin's stance and craven is 60, add in 11 from weapon feats and knowledge devotion, 10 from magic weapon damage. That's 80 per hit, plus strength. With a splitting bow you should get 12 attacks

[Efrate]

Heavy fort stops sneak attack so no craven and sneak attack.

Splitting effectively doubling all damage I think gets us there.

Knowledge devotion gives 50(100). Weapon bonus is 50(100), 11 for feats gets 110(220), hanks arrows average 7 each so thats 70(140), 100(200) for +10 strength puts it at 740. Haste for the extra attacks gets us there i think. Assuming all hit, all ignore dr/wind wall (hanks), a belt of battle plus haste gives 153 more if my mental math is correct which is 893.

Not a result of feats par se but of itemization. I do not think you get there on feats alone still.

edit: you added Knowledge devotion and weapon stuff my mistake. You can but magebane on hanks though to up it a bit to make numbers slightly better and get there.