Grappler Bard 6 / Sorcerer 1

[follacchioso]

Hi all,
I have a Swords Bard 6 character who is about to get a new level, and I would need some help deciding on a new class.

The game played on a Discord server with a good amount of sparring / arena games between players, so the optimisation needs to take into account that more than PvE.

This is a grappler character, with expertise in athletics, good speed (race is pure Orc), and a passion for utility bard spells such as Silence (good vs casters), Heat Metal (good vs armoured enemies), and Sleep. Access to magic items is restricted, but I may be able to get a pair of Wings of Flying in the near future, which would increase mobility and provide some grapple&drop combos.

After playing this character for a while, one of the main sources of pain is the low AC and defences compared to many other classes. Unfortunately I cannot wield a shield because it would interfere with grappling and some spells; so getting AC higher than 17 is very hard. Mirror Images has increased defences significantly, but it still takes an action to cast. I also do not have easy access to elemental resistances or bonuses to saves.

At the moment I am leaning towards adding a level of sorcerer, which would get me two defensive spells, Shield and Absorb Elements. My CHA stats is not high enough to rely on offensive spells, but these two spells should give a reasonable boost to defences.

My doubt is about which Sorcerer subclass would be the most efficient. At the moment I have three preferred choices:

- Divine Soul sorcerer: this would be a solid choice, with access to Bless and a 2d4 per short rest to improve saves. This could make the difference against a Hold Person spell or to maintain the concentration. However Bless takes an action to cast, and it competes with Mirror Images as I won't always get two rounds to prepare.

- Aberrant Mind sorcerer: the telepathic ability is not terribly useful although it could be productive for a grappler who needs to coordinate with a team mate. But the thing that attracts me the most is the extra spell. At level 2 I could switch Dissonant Whispers for Hex, which is a solid choice for a grappler - it grants me a bonus to damage and better grappling chances, plus it is only a lv 1 spell. Further down the road, Hunger of Hadar cast on a grappled opponent would make them blind and unable to Counterspell and cast many nasty things at me.

- Clockwork Soul sorcerer: The ability to negate Adv/Dis is useful, but what really attracts me here is the access to Armor of Agathys at lv2, swapping Alarm or Protection from Evil. Grappling an enemy into melee and casting Quickened Armor of Agathys seems like a cool tactics, specially considering I will have many high level slots to upcast it. The other spells in the list are also strong.

So I can't decide between a 2d4 to saves every short rest, Hex, and Armor of Agathys.

[Frogreaver]

Doesn’t sword bard get an ac boosting ability?

[follacchioso]

They do, but:
- you need to hit with a weapon first, so if you lose initiative, cast a spell, or do something else with your action, you don't get it
- it consumes a bardic inspiration, which are limited
- it is unreliable, you are equally likely to roll a one than a eight.

[RogueJK]

Doesn’t sword bard get an ac boosting ability?

They do, with Defensive Flourish. So there's definitely some overlap there with Shield. However, Defensive Flourish has to be used proactively ahead of time, in case you are attacked, and requires you to land a successful attack first. Shield is used reactively, when an attack hits you, and doesn't require you to Attack that round. But Defensive Flourish is usable many more times per day than Shield, unless you're burning higher level spell slots on Shield (which is generally a poor tactic unless it's a severe emergency).

To widen your capabilities, I'd consider ditching Shield or Absorb Elements in favor of Fog Cloud, which can be used to break line of sight when facing a caster in the arena. Most non-attack-roll spells rely on the ability of the caster to see you. RAW, even if an enemy is grappled and in direct physical contact with you, if they're inside a Heavily Obscured area like Fog Cloud, they can't "see" you for spellcasting purposes.


As for Sorcerer Subclass, from the three presented, Divine Soul or Clockwork Soul are likely better than Aberrant Mind for you, at least for Sorcerer 1. Divine Soul's +2d4 on a save per short rest is a life saver; it saved my Sorcadin's butt more than once. Clockwork Soul's ability to negate Advantage/Disadvantage is handy, and it scales with Proficiency not Sorcerer level, plus Armor of Agathys is nice for any character that's planning to get up close. But of the two, I'd probably lean towards Divine Soul.

Aberrant Mind is the least compelling if you're only going for a 1 level Sorcerer dip. With all your Athletics bonuses, you most likely won't need Hex's disadvantage on their opposed checks, and they have a choice to use either STR/DEX anyway, so a smart enemy who is Hexed for STR could just try to make a DEX-based Acrobatics check instead and suffer no Disadvantage. If you're taking 3+ levels of Sorcerer, Aberrant Mind's value goes up, from the free Subtle option to help avoid Counterspells. Plus Hunger of Hadar is a great spell for holding a Grappled opponent within, both for added damage as well as for blindness to hurt their spellcasting, but that won't come online until Aberrant Mind 5. (A better option could be 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and then pushing for Bard 10 and taking Hunger of Hadar as a Magical Secret. You'd get HoH at the same overall character level of 11, just with no Metamagic, but higher level Bard spellcasting options and a sooner ASI to bump your low CHA up.)


What do you plan to do with the enemies once you've grappled them? They can't move away, but it doesn't prevent them from attacking or casting spells as usual. For non-spellcaster, you'll want some spells to add additional damage to the enemy that you have grappled, on top of the melee attacks you're making against them, by Concentrating on something like Create Bonfire, Cloud of Daggers, or Hunger of Hadar to create a hazard that you can hold them in to add more damage. (Cloud of Daggers is a Bard spell and would be best with your low CHA, since it doesn't allow any save to avoid damage.) Shoving the enemy prone while grappled is also an effective way to help cramp their ability to attack you, since they can't get up from Prone and will have Disadvantage on their attacks and you'll have Advantage on your melee attacks against them. Then for spellcasters, you'll want to have some spells to hamper their casting, like holding them inside a Fog Cloud/Darkness/HoH area to blind them or a Silence area to cancel out any Verbal spells.

[Unoriginal]

Mechanical concerns, Divine Soul can be flavored that you're a deity's kid, and that is awesome.



After playing this character for a while, one of the main sources of pain is the low AC and defences compared to many other classes. Unfortunately I cannot wield a shield because it would interfere with grappling and some spells; so getting AC higher than 17 is very hard.

Dragon Sorcerer gives you 18 AC on max DEX, one more HP per level, and resistance to an element. Sounds like it's the best option for what you want.

[follacchioso]

They do, with Defensive Flourish. So there's definitely some overlap there with Shield. However, Defensive Flourish has to be used proactively ahead of time, in case you are attacked, and requires you to land a successful attack first. Shield is used reactively, when an attack hits you, and doesn't require you to Attack that round. But Defensive Flourish is usable many more times per day than Shield, unless you're burning higher level spell slots on Shield (which is generally a poor tactic unless it's a severe emergency).Yes that's right. I'm finding out there is a big difference between 17 and 22, many attacks would have missed me with an higher AC.


To widen your capabilities, I'd consider ditching Shield or Absorb Elements in favor of Fog Cloud, which can be used to break line of sight when facing a caster in the arena. Most non-attack-roll spells rely on the ability of the caster to see you. RAW, even if an enemy is grappled and in direct physical contact with you, if they're inside a Heavily Obscured area like Fog Cloud, they can't "see" you for spellcasting purposes.I really like the idea, and in fact the ability of casters to "see" me is one of the things that worry me the most.
It may conflict with my plans to get Wings of Flying for better mobility, but not necessarily.



As for Sorcerer Subclass, from the three presented, Divine Soul or Clockwork Soul are likely better than Aberrant Mind for you, at least for Sorcerer 1. Divine Soul's +2d4 on a save per short rest is a life saver; it saved my Sorcadin's butt more than once. Clockwork Soul's ability to negate Advantage/Disadvantage is handy, and it scales with Proficiency not Sorcerer level, plus Armor of Agathys is nice for any character that's planning to get up close. But of the two, I'd probably lean towards Divine Soul.Yes, 2d4 to a save is very appealing, specially against Wis saves.


Aberrant Mind is the least compelling if you're only going for a 1 level Sorcerer dip. With all your Athletics bonuses, you most likely won't need Hex's disadvantage on their opposed checks, and they have a choice to use either STR/DEX anyway, so a smart enemy who is Hexed for STR could just try to make a DEX-based Acrobatics check instead and suffer no Disadvantage. If you're taking 3+ levels of Sorcerer, Aberrant Mind's value goes up, from the free Subtle option to help avoid Counterspells, plus Hunger of Hadar is a great spell for holding a Grappled opponent within, but that won't come online until Aberrant Mind 5. (A better option could be 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and then pushing for Bard 10 and taking Hunger of Hadar as a Magical Secret. You'd get HoH at the same overall character level of 11, just with no Metamagic, but higher level Bard spellcasting options and a sooner ASI to bump your low CHA up.)This is a good point. With expertise I have Athletics +11. Opponents will typically have proficiency in either Athletics or Acrobatics, and archers in particular may have a +8, while other characters will have less.

I am not too worried about STR fighters, thanks to Heat Metal. I guess that what worries me the most are DEX-based fighters and archers, which may be difficult to grapple. Hex could help me against them, but how often will I fight them? Is it worth sacrificing the 2d4 to saves or Agathys for them? Would it be worth spending one level in Warlock instead?



What do you plan to do with the enemies once you've grappled them? They can't move away, but it doesn't prevent them from attacking or casting spells as usual. So you'll want to include ways to add additional damage to the enemy that you have grappled, on top of the melee attacks you're making against them, by Concentrating on a spell like Create Bonfire, Cloud of Daggers, or Hunger of Hadar that you can hold them in to add more damage. (Cloud of Daggers would be best with your low CHA, since it doesn't allow a save to avoid damage.) Shoving an enemy prone while grappled is also an effective way to help cramp their ability to attack you, since they can't get up from Prone and will have Disadvantage on their attacks and you'll have Advantage on your melee attacks against them. You'll also want to have a means to hamper a spellcaster, like holding them inside a Fog Cloud/Darkness/HoH area to blind them or a Silence area to cancel out any Verbal spells.
This is a very good point, and a painful one. As a swords bard, I can make two attacks, with duelling style, for 1d6+7 each. This is not a lot of damage, also considering I need to spend some attacks on shoving prone and grappling. It gets better if there are some environmental elements around, such as pits and spikes, but that does not happen very often. I was thinking of getting a Fly speed through Wings of Flying, which would allow me to lift people and drop them. But yes, grapplers do not do a lot of damage.



Mechanical concerns, Divine Soul can be flavored that you're a deity's kid, and that is awesome.It would be ever more awesome if I can get my hands on Wings of Flying, to become a flying orc :-)



Dragon Sorcerer gives you 18 AC on max DEX, one more HP per level, and resistance to an element. Sounds like it's the best option for what you want.Unfortunately my dex is only 15.

[RogueJK]

Would it be worth spending one level in Warlock instead?

Nope. Warlock means no higher level slots for upcasting, since Pact and Spell slots are independent. You'd merely gain one 1st level slot. Also, no Fog Cloud, unless you take a Marid Genie patron, which doesn't really get you anything else. Or no Shield unless you take a Hexblade patron, which also doesn't really get this character anything else. (So you couldn't get both Shield and Fog Cloud.) Plus no Absorb Elements at all for Warlocks.

Not worth it. Sorcerer 1 is a better dip for you, if you're going to dip. Better spell options for you, plus more beneficial subclass bonuses.

The only real positive for Warlock is the easier access to Armor of Agathys, but that doesn't make up for what all you'd be missing out on, especially since you could get the best of both worlds through Clockwork Sorcerer if you take more than 1 level and can swap out Alarm for AoA.


But yes, grapplers do not do a lot of damage.

Just with grappling and melee attacks, no. However, when combined with hazard spells, the numbers get an impressive boost.

Grapplers pair well with a Ranger/Druid casting Spike Growth. 2d4 no-save damage from every 5 feet of movement gets nasty quickly, especially if you have boosted movement speeds and take the Dash action. (Spells like Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat, or Cunning Action Dash, can help here.) You can "cheese grater" an enemy through the spikes for a decent pile of damage each round. A grappler with 40' movement taking the Dash action can inflict 16d4 (40 avg) damage on the enemy they have grappled. Not quite "Optimized Sorcadin Smite Nova" territory, but nothing to sneeze at. And about double what you'd be doing with your two 1d6+7 melee attacks, with no chance to miss.

However, even without access to Spike Growth, your Bard grappler can still post up some solid damage numbers using Cloud of Daggers, which is on the Bard spell list, and which can be upcast for additional damage. 4d4/6d4/8d4 no-save damage when you drag them into it, plus another tick of the same damage when they start their turn in it. Next round, drag them 5' away and then back into it, to repeat the double CoD damage, making melee attacks on your turn too for additional damage. Upcast into a 4th level slot for 8d4 per tick (16d4 per round), this can actually outdamage the Spike Growth routine in the previous paragraph, thanks to the additional melee attacks' damage:

Round 1: Close with the enemy, and use your two attacks to grapple then shove prone. On their turn, their attacks against you have Disadvantage from Prone. Or they can spend their Action to try and break free, but are unlikely to succeed, thanks to your impressive Athletics bonuses.
Round 2: Cast Cloud of Daggers in the space next to them, then drag them 5' into it. 8d4 damage, plus another 8d4 damage when they start their turn inside. That's 16d4 (40 avg) unmissable/unsaveable damage. Their attacks still have Disadvantage.
Round 3+: Make 2 melee attacks, and drag the prone enemy 5' out of the Cloud of Daggers, then 5' back into it. That's now 2d6+16d4+14 (61 avg). Your attacks have Advantage. Their attacks still have Disadvantage.

Rinse and repeat the ~61 damage in subsequent turns, until dead. This "Cloud of Daggers Blender Grapple Bard" routine can be tougher to pull off in traditional adventuring combat against multiple enemies or overly large enemies, but excels in 1v1 arena fights against another medium-sized Humanoid.

You'll still want Fog Cloud as an option when dealing with spellcasters, though. It'll take longer to kill them without the CoD blender, but they won't be able to see you to cast spells, or see a spot to which they could Misty Step to escape. They'll be stuck in your grapple relying on spells with attack rolls, of which most are just cantrips. You'll have to weigh the pros/cons in each arena fight against a spellcaster for greater damage inflicted (Cloud of Daggers) vs. greater protection from their spells (Fog Cloud), since you can only Concentrate on one or the other.

[Unoriginal]

It would be ever more awesome if I can get my hands on Wings of Flying, to become a flying orc :-)

It would, indeed. Do you intend to only take one level in Sorcerer?

'cause several Sorcerer subclasses let you fly/grow wings.



Unfortunately my dex is only 15.

My point was that it's more AC than studded leather. So it's more than what you'd get for the typical Bard without shield.

Do you plan of upping your DEX or your CHA in the future?

[follacchioso]

Just with grappling and melee attacks, no. However, when combined with hazard spells, the numbers get an impressive boost.

Grapplers pair well with a Ranger/Druid casting Spike Growth. 2d4 no-save damage from every 5 feet of movement gets nasty quickly, especially if you have boosted movement speeds and take the Dash action. (Spells like Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat, or Cunning Action Dash, can help here.) You can "cheese grater" an enemy through the spikes for a decent pile of damage each round. A grappler with 40' movement taking the Dash action can inflict 16d4 (40 avg) damage on the enemy they have grappled. Not quite "Optimized Sorcadin Smite Nova" territory, but nothing to sneeze at. And about double what you'd be doing with your two 1d6+7 melee attacks, with no chance to miss.

However, even without access to Spike Growth, your Bard grappler can still post up some solid damage numbers using Cloud of Daggers, which is on the Bard spell list, and which can be upcast for additional damage. 4d4/6d4/8d4 no-save damage when you drag them into it, plus another tick of the same damage when they start their turn in it. Next round, drag them 5' away and then back into it, to repeat the double CoD damage, making melee attacks on your turn too for additional damage. Upcast into a 4th level slot for 8d4 per tick (16d4 per round), this can actually outdamage the Spike Growth routine in the previous paragraph, thanks to the additional melee attacks' damage:

Round 1: Close with the enemy, and use your two attacks to grapple then shove prone. On their turn, their attacks against you have Disadvantage from Prone. Or they can spend their Action to try and break free, but are unlikely to succeed, thanks to your impressive Athletics bonuses.
Round 2: Cast Cloud of Daggers in the space next to them, then drag them 5' into it. 8d4 damage, plus another 8d4 damage when they start their turn inside. That's 16d4 (40 avg) unmissable/unsaveable damage. Their attacks still have Disadvantage.
Round 3+: Make 2 melee attacks, and drag the prone enemy 5' out of the Cloud of Daggers, then 5' back into it. That's now 2d6+16d4+14 (61 avg). Your attacks have Advantage. Their attacks still have Disadvantage.

Rinse and repeat the ~61 damage in subsequent turns, until dead. This "Cloud of Daggers Blender Grapple Bard" routine can be tougher to pull off in traditional adventuring combat against multiple enemies or overly large enemies, but excels in 1v1 arena fights against another medium-sized Humanoid.

You'll still want Fog Cloud as an option when dealing with spellcasters, though. It'll take longer to kill them without the CoD blender, but they won't be able to see you to cast spells, or see a spot to which they could Misty Step to escape. They'll be stuck in your grapple relying on spells with attack rolls, of which most are just cantrips. You'll have to weigh the pros/cons in each arena fight against a spellcaster for greater damage inflicted (Cloud of Daggers) vs. greater protection from their spells (Fog Cloud), since you can only Concentrate on one or the other.
Yes Cloud of Daggers is great fun. As a multi class, I also have lots of unused spell slots that I can only spend to upcast. So that is definitely a good choice. Need to have good concentration, though.

There is not much team working in this server, but I'll speak with some druid players.


It would, indeed. Do you intend to only take one level in Sorcerer?

'cause several Sorcerer subclasses let you fly/grow wings.
Yes this is a good question. I like the sorcerer spells more than the bard ones, so investing more levels in Sorcerer is not a bad choice. I need Counterspell, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, and more than what Magical Secret would allow me to get.

The sorcerer features to fly are all very neat. My favourite is the Aberrant Soul, which is very flavourful. However, this character is already invested six levels in bard, and when he sees that these features are lv 14 he feels very old already. It can be a good option to have a capstone, but prior to that I need to get a magical item.



Do you plan of upping your DEX or your CHA in the future?I get medium armor from the Swords college. I'll probably invest in CHA to bring it to 16, but I don't have the ASI to increase DEX.