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Reinboom
2007-11-12, 07:00 PM
I'm looking for a list level adjustment 2 or LA 3 races (3.5 only, no 3.0) that are considered 'worth it'. Preferably, ones without any hit dice.
I do not want a discussion of "oh! this is a crappy race because it limits spellcasting and spellcasters are teh uber!".
I'm specifically looking for races that just generally 'synchronize' well with any mid-ranged power classes such as: martial classes (ToB), barbarian, rogue, favored soul (even though it loses caster levels, I don't care), and similar.
Preferably races that synchronize well at around the ECL 12 mark, and are still 'worth' their LA.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-12, 07:03 PM
Right off the top of my head, Half-Fey for any Charisma-centric character. Yes, yes, "Thou shalt not forgo caster levels". With a class with a limited, Cha-based spell list (like Hexblade or Spellthief) and other abilities that are Cha-based, it's terrific. Not only do you get a metric ton of SLAs that are incredibly useful (charm person at will? Yes please), but you get a decent Cha boost and flight.

Grynning
2007-11-12, 07:09 PM
I hate to bring it up, but Drow are honestly pretty damn good for a +2 LA. Plus with the ridiculous amount of published material for them you have a lot of character options.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-12, 07:11 PM
Karsites from Tome of Magic are uber for melee classes, wilders and any Incarnum/ToM casting class (they can't use arcane/divine magic, so no favored soul.)

You get all the benefits of human (Extra Feat), +2 Con, +2 Cha, 5/magic DR, 10+class level SR with the ability to gain 2*spell level HP if you resist a spell, a Rogue-like ability to temporarily drain magic items with your melee attacks, free medium/light armor proficienies and a free martial weapon proficiency.

Frosty
2007-11-12, 07:13 PM
I can give you a +1 LA race, if that'll help at all. I think Catfolk is pretty decent. +6 total stats (+4 dex, +2cha), 40 Base land speed. Low light vision. Bonuses to some skills I think.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-12, 07:14 PM
I hate to bring it up, but Drow are honestly pretty damn good for a +2 LA. Plus with the ridiculous amount of published material for them you have a lot of character options.

This is true if you have access to Drow of the Underdark. Otherwise, it's a coin-toss (I almost wrote toin-coss wtf).

deadseashoals
2007-11-12, 07:16 PM
Half ogre (RoD), thri kreen (MM2) (ECL 3, LA +1). Plus the obligatory broken half minotaur, feral, and mineral warrior. Half dragon isn't that bad either, as the Constitution gain goes a long way toward compensating for the lost hit dice, and the Strength gain more than makes up for the lost BAB.

Centaur is also pretty good, but it has 4 racial hit dice, and some lycanthropes are also pretty good, but they carry animal hit dice.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-12, 07:22 PM
Werebear Barbarian.

Think about it.

Let it sink in.

Then realize that it's +16 Strength when raging at level 1. +20 at 8th.

Warhulk for later, since you shift and gain large size. :smallcool:

Amiria
2007-11-12, 07:22 PM
Lumi (MM3 p.98) are also nice, although they have 2 RHD, but outsider. And +2 Str, +4 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Dex. That looks pretty good for ToB classes, Barbarians and Favored Souls.

Reinboom
2007-11-12, 07:22 PM
Ah, I tend to want to avoid templates here and LA +1 races. Although certain notable templates and races are appreciated (such as noting the thri-kreen).
Also, I'm aware of the Catfolk for a good LA +1. Catfolk pounce with increased speed is excellent.
Is there anything specific in the "Drow of the Underdark" I should be looking for?

Thank you for the races thus far. :smallsmile:

Grynning
2007-11-12, 07:30 PM
It's a good book all around for feats and PrC's...the ranger PrC (Cavestalker I think it's called) is quite good. Also read over the section on alternate class features for drow of various base classes, there's a lot of good stuff there.

MCerberus
2007-11-12, 07:31 PM
Side not for the thread here - in 4e they're supposed to have a new system for not just MPCs but all PCs where they get different/stronger abilities in line with their race as they level up. No losing levels because of your race, but instead you don't get all the cool powers until later on, and even gnomes got something cool at that point!

Zincorium
2007-11-12, 07:42 PM
Werebear Barbarian.

Think about it.

Let it sink in.

Then realize that it's +16 Strength when raging at level 1. +20 at 8th.

Warhulk for later, since you shift and gain large size. :smallcool:

Unfortunately, those levels of animal suck badly. And with an LA of +3, even with buyoff you won't get rid of most of that (The soonest you can buy off the first is ECL 18, costing a hell of a lot of xp, and you can't buy off any of the rest before epic).

Although it does have a slight advantage over a normal fighter or barbarian, you start at ECL 9. Meaning you can't even begin play in the low levels where fighter types do well. By the time you get the warhulk thing goin' (which you can do after only taking a single level of barbarian) you're solidly in bat country.

And when you're not shifted, you quite seriously suck. You'll have a total BAB of 5 at ECL 20 taking all of warhulk. That is half of a wizard's, for crying out loud.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-12, 07:47 PM
I like Half Fey (except for the butter fly wings) which was already mentioned and Phrenic at +2 LA is pretty nice particularly with LA buydown at levels 3 and 9.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm

SRD Bloodlines (+1, +2 and +3) are really nice for what you get and how they are paid down differently than standard LA templates, they could be paid down comletely by level 4.

There is always combinations:

Take something like the OE Hengokai, shape changing animal +1LA whic was lowered down to +0 in a dragon magazine, can shape change into some useful animal forms 1/day per hd/level, they would qualify for the ECS +0 LA Mage Bred template (+4, +2, +2 to physical attributes) plus a few other bennies, tack on half fey or phrenic at +2 LA.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-12, 07:57 PM
And when you're not shifted, you quite seriously suck. You'll have a total BAB of 5 at ECL 20 taking all of warhulk. That is half of a wizard's, for crying out loud.

Yes, you would. But honestly, the relevance is little. Mostly because there are ways to gain multiple attacks without a high BAB. (Improved Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick come to mind) Coupled with Skirmisher's Boots and a Haste and you're already attacking four times at your highest BAB with only a -2 penalty each time.

Considering you'll have about 38 Strength as a base.. Hardly too important.

Instead of Warhulk, you could always take Frenzied Berserker and turn it into a charger build instead.

Honestly, I enjoy the heck out of a 38 Strength werebear, but thats my opinion.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-12, 08:08 PM
Spawn, of which ever colour, are a great bet. Dragonlance PG. Whitespawn for the WIN BABY!

Mewtarthio
2007-11-12, 09:48 PM
Unfortunately, those levels of animal suck badly. And with an LA of +3, even with buyoff you won't get rid of most of that (The soonest you can buy off the first is ECL 18, costing a hell of a lot of xp, and you can't buy off any of the rest before epic).

Isn't LA +3 the highest you can buy off completely (starting at character level 9, ECL 12)?

Kizara
2007-11-12, 10:14 PM
In my opinion Githyanki are pretty solid if you are doing a build that plays to their strengths, which often include levels of fighter and barbarian.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-12, 10:27 PM
Both of the Gith aren't bad choices. I can't remember if Fiend Folio is 3.0 or not, but the Nerra are really cool. I love reflective spell resistance (really high reflective spell resistance...)

Zincorium
2007-11-12, 10:48 PM
Isn't LA +3 the highest you can buy off completely (starting at character level 9, ECL 12)?

Hm, I think I wasn't counting the animal hit dice for character level. Which I should have. In any case, I can't recall any game I've been a player in that used LA buyoff. I generally allow it in my own games, though.

Gralamin
2007-11-12, 10:49 PM
Isn't LA +3 the highest you can buy off completely (starting at character level 9, ECL 12)?

No, first you have to wait 3*3 (9) levels, then 2*3 (6) levels, then 1*3 (3) levels, so you buy off the first at 18, the second at 24, and the final at 27.


Edit: ^ makes a good point. With that, it might be 12, then 18, then 21.

Stam
2007-11-12, 11:12 PM
<offtopic>
If you want the werebear's strength, all you have to do is wait through seven levels of barbarian/similar and then pick up Bear Warrior. Toss in two levels of Warshaper and eat a single BAB point of loss, and at level 15 you can have a PC with a strength score of 45. Eat that, werebear.
</offtopic>

There's a Lawful planetouched race whose name I forget, from the MM2 IIRC. That's only a +1, but it's tailor-made for a monk (or swordsage). Tiefling as the ever-favorite rogue or swashbuckler. (Again, LA+1 but worth a mention.)

Leon
2007-11-13, 12:25 AM
Satyxis - Total of +12 to Stats (spread over 4) Racial Abilites, Bonus to skills and a Great rack (+2 LA)

Pygmy Troll - Small, but Tough, has Regeneration 2, Poison resistance and Whelps (+2 LA)

Now, if RHD isnt a problem - Tharn (6 RHD & +2 LA) Toss in some levels of Barb or such and have fun. Lots of Str, Dex & Con bonus and a minor hit to Int and Cha. Also has a Racial rage type ability

Farrow (2 RHD & +2 LA), +10 To physical stats (Favouring Con), natural weapon, natural Armour, Scent

Monsternomicon One
By Privateer Press

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:37 AM
Satyxis - Total of +12 to Stats (spread over 4) Racial Abilites, Bonus to skills and a Great rack (+2 LA)

Pygmy Troll - Small, but Tough, has Regeneration 2, Poison resistance and Whelps (+2 LA)

Now, if RHD isnt a problem - Tharn (6 RHD & +2 LA) Toss in some levels of Barb or such and have fun. Lots of Str, Dex & Con bonus and a minor hit to Int and Cha. Also has a Racial rage type ability

Farrow (2 RHD & +2 LA), +10 To physical stats (Favouring Con), natural weapon, natural Armour, Scent

Please give sources.

Reinboom
2007-11-13, 01:00 AM
Satyxis - Total of +12 to Stats (spread over 4) Racial Abilites, Bonus to skills and a Great rack (+2 LA)

Pygmy Troll - Small, but Tough, has Regeneration 2, Poison resistance and Whelps (+2 LA)

Now, if RHD isnt a problem - Tharn (6 RHD & +2 LA) Toss in some levels of Barb or such and have fun. Lots of Str, Dex & Con bonus and a minor hit to Int and Cha. Also has a Racial rage type ability

Farrow (2 RHD & +2 LA), +10 To physical stats (Favouring Con), natural weapon, natural Armour, Scent

I can only find 'Pygmy Troll' as a homebrew creature in the wizards forums.
I'm looking for official races. If these are official, then yes, sources appreciated please ^^;

Aurion
2007-11-13, 01:10 AM
There is a +2 LA Psionic Version of the Thri-Kreen as well in Complete Psionic. Good stats, good psionic abilities that don't require pp to use. You have to take two levels of montrous humanoid unfortunately for thri-kreen, but the 4 arms and good dex bonus nearly makes up for it, and the +3 Natural Armor is very nice.

Hawriel
2007-11-13, 01:24 AM
power gamer friend of mine just made a deep gnome from FR, they are LA 3. They can alter self, SR 10 + Character level and a bunch of other stuff. good for a fighter or a rogue.

Leon
2007-11-13, 02:36 AM
Quick Discription
Satyxis - Horned Warrior Women

Pygmy Troll - The smallest of the Troll breeds of Western Immoren

Tharn - Bestial Humanoids that live in the wilds

Farrow - Boarmen


Edited the Original post with Book details

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-13, 03:28 AM
Half-Farspawn is just a bit out of the league at +4, but it does have that tentacular goodness...:smallbiggrin:

Kizara
2007-11-13, 04:50 AM
I can only find 'Pygmy Troll' as a homebrew creature in the wizards forums.
I'm looking for official races. If these are official, then yes, sources appreciated please ^^;

The source he ended up posting was third-party, which is pretty far from official. Too bad, the horned warrior women looked interesting. Unfortunately, I can't use things in my game with only a "quick description".

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-13, 06:18 AM
Werebear Barbarian.

Think about it.

Let it sink in.

Then realize that it's +16 Strength when raging at level 1. +20 at 8th.

Warhulk for later, since you shift and gain large size. :smallcool:

How about instead of that, just play a normal barbarian and taking Bear Warrior levels?

Leon
2007-11-13, 06:27 AM
The source he ended up posting was third-party, which is pretty far from official. Too bad, the horned warrior women looked interesting. Unfortunately, I can't use things in my game with only a "quick description".

Nowhere was it stated that it had to be WOTC only races and IK is mostly cross compatible with regular D&D settings

Tengu
2007-11-13, 06:37 AM
power gamer friend of mine just made a deep gnome from FR, they are LA 3. They can alter self, SR 10 + Character level and a bunch of other stuff. good for a fighter or a rogue.

He's not that much of a powergamer if he plays a deep gnome, unless it's for a challenge.

Reinboom
2007-11-13, 06:43 AM
Nowhere was it stated that it had to be WOTC only races and IK is mostly cross compatible with regular D&D settings

Well, I prefer official. However, there's nothing to say that one designers capability is any worse or better than another's just because of what company they work for - so I will still give them a look.

Thank you thus far for the suggestions.
Also, the bear warrior vs werebear discussion - this actually has assisted me in my project. However, I would appreciate if the discussion didn't go far too off on a tangent away from the topic.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-13, 10:40 AM
Go with the "Rogue" version of the Nerra race. Fiend Folio. It's supposedly 3.0, but there's a web update to 3.5, and it has the same "3.25" level as Savage Species(ie, some of the early changes are already done, LA is listed as RHD+New LA, etc.). I think it counted as ECL 4, but had some nifty stuff. Wounding mirror blades and sneak attack 1d6. Mirror jumping and spell reflection just makes it even crazier.

Artanis
2007-11-13, 12:22 PM
What about a True Dragon? You can get a Black, White, Copper, or Brass with a +3 or lower LA if it's young enough, and the racial hit dice are as good as racial hit dice get (d12 hp, full BAB, all good saves, 6+INT skills, and even Darkvision, and that's before the other goodies for being a True Dragon). I don't have a copy of the Draconomicon handy though, so I don't know if you can get custom stats or would be forced to use what's in the SRD, but it might be worth considering for a fighter-type.

Just Alex
2007-11-13, 02:43 PM
The Half-Vampire isn't complete suck, if you don't mind sucking blood every once in a while. Since it's just a template, you can stack it onto whatever race you want, and free Charm Persons are always handy.

leperkhaun
2007-11-13, 03:01 PM
check out this thread

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=942765

Amiria
2007-11-13, 03:12 PM
The Half-Vampire isn't complete suck, if you don't mind sucking blood every once in a while. Since it's just a template, you can stack it onto whatever race you want, and free Charm Persons are always handy.

Better than Charm Person, it also affects Monstrous Humanoids. That's clearly the best of the three abilities from which you can choose. I'd make a Half-Vampire Crusader for Charisma synergy and survivability (the Crusader's class features offset the squishiness of the +2 LA).

daggaz
2007-11-13, 03:18 PM
+12 to stats along with other bonuses and only LA +2? sounds like stinky bad homebrewing to me...

Dullyanna
2007-11-13, 03:43 PM
Don't Svirfnebli get +4 dogde bonus to AC? Their charisma score is abysmal, but they make decent rogue/fighters... except that +3 LA really hurts, IMO. Actually, I've always wanted to play a half-fey, because of the butterfly wings and nifty abilities.

Edit: I just remembered a few goodies:
Flinds: Stronger, non-stupid gnolls, who treat Flindbars as martial weapons, and have +2 LA.
Half-nymphs: +2 LA for a bonus to dexterity and the mental stats, not to mention a sort-of-cool ability.
Half-doppelgangers: +2 LA, +2 wisdom, and three alternative forms of small or medium races, that can be assumed at any time, for as long as you want.

SandDemon
2007-11-13, 04:17 PM
Can you guys please post your sources?

Amiria
2007-11-13, 04:28 PM
Half-nymphs: +2 LA for a bonus to dexterity and the mental stats, not to mention a sort-of-cool ability.

Are they really LA +2 ? They are listed as LA +3 in the CrystalKeep PDF. Source is given as Dragon 313. With LA +2 I'd consider them for a character.

Edit: Is the DC for Awesome Beauty 10 + half character level + charisma modifier ?

Dullyanna
2007-11-13, 04:30 PM
Flinds are found (Most recently) in the third monster manual, while the two templates I mentioned are in the Dragon mag, issue #313 (Half-Minotaur is in there, too).

@Amiria: That's strange... Maybe one of our internets is broken (Probably mine), but I just checked Crystal Keep, and it says the LA is +2. It also just says that the DC for Awesome Beauty is "Charisma Based". It's not really overpowered, IMHO, so I'd say your DC works fine.

Artanis
2007-11-13, 04:37 PM
Can you guys please post your sources?
You probably aren't referring to me, but FWIW, my info is from the SRD.

Amiria
2007-11-13, 04:46 PM
@Amiria: That's strange... Maybe one of our internets is broken (Probably mine), but I just checked Crystal Keep, and it says the LA is +2. It also just says that the DC for Awesome Beauty is "Charisma Based". It's not really overpowered, IMHO, so I'd say your DC works fine.

Nothing broken in the internet; I believe. My version of the PDF has the date February 28, 2007. It was most probably an error that they fixed in the latest version. Half-Nymphs are clearly not worth +3 LA, especially compared to Half-Fey (who would be better balanced as +3 LA with their many spell-like abilities and flight).

Leon
2007-11-13, 06:35 PM
+12 to stats along with other bonuses and only LA +2? sounds like stinky bad homebrewing to me...

If thats in regard to my post, its not a Homebrew and the race is not too shabby. Its balanced well enough for the setting, your milage may vary outside of IK but its still a nice race for +2

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-14, 04:29 AM
So yeah, I checked up on the Nerra again. The Varoot is the Rogue. It has 1 RHD(which will be swapped for class, but if you choose not to, it's Outsider HD, which are as good as Dragon{skills vs HP}, so not too shabby). They get natural proficiency with Shard weapons(treat as bonus Feats EWP: Shard weapons, so qualify for Exotic Weaponmaster:smallbiggrin:), which are +2 wounding. All Nerras get Mirror Jump(similar to Shadowdancer's porting ability, but via Plane of Mirrors), spells that fail to bypass their spell resistance get reflected(either the caster becomes target or centre of area), and Varoots get disguise self 3/day and mirror image 1/day). Their fairly strong stats (no negatives that I can see, probably around +16-20 total? I think no negatives, but no Int bonus) just makes it even better(there's a thread on GiTP I found via Google with an Occult Slayer Varoot:smalleek:).:smallbiggrin:

Raistlin1040
2007-11-14, 04:49 PM
Half-Ogre maybe? I've never played it before, but looking at straight up, it looks good for a fighter or barbarian. Large sized, +6 to STR, +2 to CON, -2 to DEX CHA, and INT. 60 ft Darkvision and +4 Natural Armor. Favored Class Barbarian as well, so you could multiclass if you go Barbarian.

Iku Rex
2007-11-15, 01:14 AM
Petals (MM3, +2) make decent PCs. They're Tiny fey with amazing Dexterity.

Karma Guard
2007-11-15, 03:19 AM
They've already been mentioned, but the two psionic versions of the gith species are pretty fun. LA Buyoff makes them much better, of course.

Githyanki get pretty decent Psionics /day (Telekinetic Thrust, Psionic Daze, Dimension Door, and Plane Shift), 3(?) bonus PP, and +2 Con and Dex, with -2 Wis.

Githzerai have silly synergy between their psionics (Inertial Armor afaik, plus the Plane shift) and their stupid +6 Dex. They also get +2 Wis, but -2 Int. They have 2 bonus PP? I want to say.

Not to mention that the fluff that comes with them is just awesome. :smallcool:

daggaz
2007-11-15, 07:02 AM
What is the LA and RHD for a half ogre?

For core fighters, I always like playing lizardmen myself. LA+1, 2 RHD, (i know i know, you said no RHD but they ARE better than LA), and you get 2 str 2 con -2 int and 5 NA. You lose 2 BaB, but you get one aB out of the strength bonus so its not *that* bad of a price to pay for the extra AC. Plus style! =) lizardmen are just cool. You lose a few feats but if you are stuck in core.. meh. Ok, I know its not the best race out there, but when im looking at core only..

Amiria
2007-11-15, 07:06 AM
What is the LA and RHD for a half ogre?

LA +2, no RHD. They have the giant type.