Feats for an ranger archer

[nickl_2000]

Other than the obvious ones of sharpshooter and crossbow expert, what feats would you take for an archer ranger and why?

Or is it more important to get wisdom higher for a swarmkeeper?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aside from generically useful options like Lucky, I'm not sure there's anything else to take. Maybe Martial Adept to pick up Precision Attack?

[nickl_2000]

Aside from generically useful options like Lucky, I'm not sure there's anything else to take. Maybe Martial Adept to pick up Precision Attack?

I was wondering about that one, is it worth it for 1d6 per short rest?

[KorvinStarmast]

Other than the obvious ones of sharpshooter and crossbow expert, what feats would you take for an archer ranger and why?

Or is it more important to get wisdom higher for a swarmkeeper?
I went vHuman Gloomstalker and I took Medium Armor Master.
Why?
Archery fighting style's flat +2 to attack resolves any to hit issues.
Getting the extra +1 to AC and no stealth penalty to scale or half plate is nice.
I had figured to get Sharpshooter at 8, I boosted dex to 18 at 4.
It also allowed me to have decent AC when we got into narrow dungeon places, with my rapier and shield.

[Falconcry]

If you have odd dex then piercer rerolls would gain you more damage then a d6 per short rest.

[nickl_2000]

If you have odd dex then piercer rerolls would gain you more damage then a d6 per long rest.

Is piercer worthwhile in play? It's seems good, but I wasn't sure

[Falconcry]

I had the choice between Elven Accuracy and piercer but I just was not getting enough advantage at ranged to proc EA so I choose Piercer instead, after Sharpshooter.

[RogueJK]

A high WIS is nice on a Swarmkeeper Archer to boost your Shove DC and spellcasting, but it doesn't make it more important than maxing your DEX first.

What are your DEX and WIS scores? Unless you have an odd DEX/WIS, you're likely going to be better off spending the ASIs on +2 DEX to get it to 20 and then +2 WIS. However, there are some useful DEX/WIS half-feats that can be handy to round out odd scores, or potentially stack two half feats together over several levels in some cases to go from 18 to 20.

If you're some flavor of Elf, the Triple Advantage from Elven Accuracy helps to further offset Sharpshooter's -5 penalty, and it's a DEX half feat. Piercer is a DEX half-feat, although it's the weakest of the three damage type feats from Tasha's. Piercer would be pretty far down on my priority list.

Fey Touched is a very solid WIS half-feat, getting you free Misty Step plus something else useful like Bless (which also helps offset the Sharpshooter attack penalty). Free spells and free castings are even handier on half-casters like Rangers, to boost their limited spellcasting. Resilient WIS is another good WIS half feat, as a large number of the really nasty enemy abilities/spells have WIS-based saves. Telekinetic is another option for a WIS half feat, giving you a useful resourceless option for your Bonus Action, provided you're not already using your BA to get an extra Hand Crossbow shot with Crossbow Master, and boosting your Swarmkeeper Mage Hand to a range of 60' total.

Skill Expert for Expertise in Stealth or Perception plus another skill proficiency is also potentially worth considering as a DEX or WIS half feat.


Personally, I wouldn't bother with Martial Adept. Not enough dice (or large enough dice) to be worth spending an entire ASI on, especially before you've maxed DEX and WIS. If you want nifty maneuvers to use with your shots, you're better off taking some Battlemaster Fighter levels. Something like Ranger 3-5/Battlemaster X, or Battlemaster 3-6/Ranger X.

[CheddarChampion]

Is piercer worthwhile in play? It's seems good, but I wasn't sure

If I did my math right, the damage re-roll is worth about +1 point of damage for a single attack on average for a longbow.
The extra damage from a crit is worth about +0.225 damage per hit.
The chance of a good opportunity for a damage re-roll on a crit is worth about +0.05 damage with one attack, +0.075 with two.
The average damage from a longbow die (d8) is 4.5. Re-rolling a 1 gives +3.5 damage on average, re-rolling a 2 gives +2.5, a 3 +1.5, and a 4 +0.5. Don't re-roll a 5 or better because that probably makes you roll lower.
So there's a 1 in 8 chance Piercer grants +3.5 damage, a 1 in 8 chance it grants +2.5, and so on for +1.5 and +0.5. Multiply these damage boosts by 1/8, add them up, and you get 1.
3.5/8 + 2.5/8 + 1.5/8 +0.5/8 = 6/8 + 2/8 = 8/8 = 1 point of damage on average.

The extra damage on a crit part of Piercer is a 5% chance of +4.5 damage on a longbow, so +0.225 damage per hit on average.

With one attack, there's also the 2.5% chance you have an opportunity to re-roll a below average crit (5% crit chance, 50% chance of rolling below average damage), resulting in +2 damage on average on top of the +1 base from the re-roll.
Multiply the +2 by the 2.5% chance and that's worth +0.05 damage.
With advantage that's a 9.75% crit chance so it's worth +0.0975 damage.

With two attacks, there's a 1.25% chance you have an opportunity to re-roll a below average crit (5% crit chance, 50% chance of rolling below average damage, 50% chance you used up your re-roll on your first attack), resulting in +2 damage on average on top of the +1 base from the re-roll.
Multiply the +2 by the 1.25% chance and that's worth +0.025 damage.
With advantage that's a 9.75% crit chance and +0.04875 damage.
So after level 5 (extra attack), the benefits of Piercer give +1.525 damage on average, or +1.59625 damage if you have advantage. If all attacks hit.

I say it's okay as far as half feats go.
If you can get Elven Accuracy or if +1 Dex, +1 Con/+1 Dex, +1 Wis boosts your modifiers for two stats, maybe take one of those instead.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was wondering about that one, is it worth it for 1d6 per short rest?
Eh, even with Sharpshooter it's probably not. Boosting your Wisdom is probably a better use than most feats at this point.

[JonBeowulf]

I've played several characters and all of them either had Mobile or would have benefited from it. It lets you get to where you need to be... or to GTFO faster than at least one other party member.

Echoing several others: only do this after maxing DEX.

[Witty Username]

Piercer may be worth a look if you need a half-feat.

With more specificity, if you expect to sometimes be unable to avoid melee, piercer will apply to rapier attacks so your not as bad off, +1 dex is nice if you have an odd number. The crits thing is neat but I wouldn't expect it to come up normally.


I went vHuman Gloomstalker and I took Medium Armor Master.
Why?
Archery fighting style's flat +2 to attack resolves and to hit issues.
Getting the extra +1 to AC and no stealth penalty to scale or half plate is nice.
I had figured to get Sharpshooter at 8, I boosted dex to 18 at 4.
It also allowed me to have decent AC when we got into narrow dungeon places, with my rapier and shield.
Oh, yeah. Medium armor Master can be a good pick if you are not going to get to particularly high level or want to have some survivability at early levels.

[Hytheter]

I say it's okay as far as half feats go.
If you can get Elven Accuracy or if +1 Dex, +1 Con/+1 Dex, +1 Wis boosts your modifiers for two stats, maybe take one of those instead.

Worth noting that EA combines well with piercer if you can get advantage reliably.

[nickl_2000]

Dex is my only odd stat at the moment and EA isn't an option since the character is a Wildhunt Shifter. So, I was looking at a dex half-feat for level 4, likely to be Piercer or Skill Expert. For Skill Expert, I already have expertise in Perception due to Tasha's Ranger options, so I would take either Survival or Stealth (we are spending a lot of time in the Mournlands of Eberron and Survival has come up a lot so far).

Then it's maxing Dex at level 8 because dex is basically the god stat is 5e.

After that I was trying to figure out what to do. Feats, Wisdom Boosts, and what not, which is why I was asking about the feats to see if there was something I didn't think of. Telekinetic is interesting to combine with the Swarmkeeper swarm to be able to move people around in Spike Growth and terrain dangers and Kite even more effectively. That is one I will have to consider since I could combine it with Resilient Wisdom to even out my Wis score.

[da newt]

Do you plan to stick to Ranger or MC (and why)?

I like to add BM Fighter and/or Rogue to Ranger in general, but it depends on your goals / theme etc.

[Dork_Forge]

I vote to use Piercer to round out your Dex, in practice it's pretty nice and makes crits somewhat more meaningful for an archer.

After that I think you'd be better off taking Fighting Initiate rather than Martial Adept, you only get the one maneuver, but you aren't locked down with it like MA. If it isn't working out for you then down the road swap it out for a different fighting style like Defense.

[nickl_2000]

Do you plan to stick to Ranger or MC (and why)?

I like to add BM Fighter and/or Rogue to Ranger in general, but it depends on your goals / theme etc.

I honestly don't have an answer to this since it's a long ways away, but I spend way to much time theory crafting in my mind to not consider it strongly. The party is currently an Battlesmith Artificer (who will likely not MC) and a Wizard (who is also likely to single class). I've been evaluating in my mind a MC into Druid, BM Fighter, or Shadow/Kensai Monk.

-Druid gives more battlefield control and better healing than we currently have in the party.
-BM Fighter give maneuvers, which would be fun to have and an extra ASI
-Monk boosts AC considerably, gives better defense with deflect missiles, gives better movement, and more damage with Kensai or teleport/spells with shadow.

I'm not all that interested in Rogue because the other character I'm actively playing is a Rogue/Wizard and I would like him to be more different. The concept is a good one, just not one I'm interested in at the moment, especially since thieves tools are covered by the Artificer.


I'm leaning into Monk at this point, although I think it is mostly because I have always and will always love the Monk subclass. However, it also gives me more protection to stay alive from deflect missiles, patient defense, and step of the wind. At the moment I'm leaning Way of the Shadow because I would be able to teleport at will in the mournlands and I could cast Darkvision on the Warforged Artificer to free up on of his infusion uses.

From a character RP standpoint, Druid makes the least sense of the MC options I mentioned. BM and Monk make plenty of sense and would fit into the character well.





In the long run, I won't be MCing until after level 5 and more likely would be MCing at PC level 9. At that point, I would have to see where the weaknesses are in the character and party that could be filled in (especially since we may get our 4th player back from his break or a different 4th player). Also, I have absolutely no idea what magic items are possible. There is no magic market available in this campaign, so it will all depend on drops.

[Willie the Duck]

After that I was trying to figure out what to do. Feats, Wisdom Boosts, and what not, which is why I was asking about the feats to see if there was something I didn't think of. Telekinetic is interesting to combine with the Swarmkeeper swarm to be able to move people around in Spike Growth and terrain dangers and Kite even more effectively. That is one I will have to consider since I could combine it with Resilient Wisdom to even out my Wis score.

Telekinetic has the issue that rangers already have plenty of uses for their bonus actions. Moving Hunter's Mark and Swarmkeeper's Writhing Tide ability in particular. That said, you are correct that it is a good feat. Fey or Shadow Touched would also be good half-feats that could also be used to slowly boost Wisdom. +1Dex/+1Wis and then resilient:wis also is a tactically reasonable choice (although pretty much the opposite of interesting).

[RogueJK]

Telekinetic is interesting to combine with the Swarmkeeper swarm to be able to move people around in Spike Growth and terrain dangers and Kite even more effectively. That is one I will have to consider since I could combine it with Resilient Wisdom to even out my Wis score.

Yep. It combos nicely with Swarmkeeper by giving you a reliable resourceless use for your Bonus Action when it's not otherwise needed, increasing your Mage Hand range to 60', and letting you get a second attempt at some additional forced movement per turn. 20' total shove through a Spike Growth (available from Ranger 5+) is an extra 8d4 (20 avg) damage per turn, basically doubling the damage of your standard 2x Longbow attacks doing 2d8+10 (19). With two Sharpshooter hits, you've tripled your damage (20+19+20).


Telekinetic has the issue that rangers already have plenty of uses for their bonus actions. Moving Hunter's Mark and Swarmkeeper's Writhing Tide ability in particular.

Not really.

Writhing Tide only requires one Bonus Action to activate, so you won't be spending a BA on that all that frequently. Hunter's Mark is handy, but with the Swarmkeeper's shove ability, using your Concentration for Spike Growth instead can be a better bet for added damage: 6d4 (15) vs. 2d6 (7). And Telekinetic makes that tactic even better, by adding another 5' of forced movement for another 2d4 damage.

Even when you're using Hunter's Mark, you aren't going to be moving it every round, so you'll still have unused BAs on some rounds where Telekinetic can fill in. Plus you can use it defensively too, to reposition a teammate to move them out of an enemy's reach and allow them to move away on their turn without having to Disengage.

[nickl_2000]

Telekinetic has the issue that rangers already have plenty of uses for their bonus actions. Moving Hunter's Mark and Swarmkeeper's Writhing Tide ability in particular. That said, you are correct that it is a good feat. Fey or Shadow Touched would also be good half-feats that could also be used to slowly boost Wisdom. +1Dex/+1Wis and then resilient:wis also is a tactically reasonable choice (although pretty much the opposite of interesting).


Yep. It combos nicely with Swarmkeeper by giving you a reliable resourceless use for your Bonus Action when it's not otherwise needed, increasing your Mage Hand range to 60', and letting you get a second attempt at some additional forced movement per turn. 20' total shove through a Spike Growth (available from Ranger 5+) is an extra 8d4 (20 avg) damage per turn, basically doubling the damage of your standard 2x Longbow attacks doing 2d8+10 (19). With two Sharpshooter hits, you've tripled your damage (20+19+20).



Not really.

Writhing Tide only requires one Bonus Action to activate, so you won't be spending a BA on that all that frequently. Hunter's Mark is handy, but with the Swarmkeeper's shove ability, using your Concentration for Spike Growth instead can be a better bet for added damage: 6d4 (15) vs. 2d6 (7). And Telekinetic makes that tactic even better, by adding another 5' of forced movement for another 2d4 damage.

Even when you're using Hunter's Mark, you aren't going to be moving it every round, so you'll still have unused BAs on some rounds where Telekinetic can fill in. Plus you can use it defensively too, to reposition a teammate to move them out of an enemy's reach and allow them to move away on their turn without having to Disengage.


Telekenetic is also nice since it can be used on rounds where a spell is cast. So, if I cast Spike Growth, Cure Wounds, or some other spell I can still attempt to shove someone around 5ft. It would be low on my priority of feats though compared to others.

[Willie the Duck]

Not really.

Writhing Tide only requires one Bonus Action to activate, so you won't be spending a BA on that all that frequently. Hunter's Mark is handy, but with the Swarmkeeper's shove ability, using your Concentration for Spike Growth instead can be a better bet for added damage: 6d4 (15) vs. 2d6 (7). And Telekinetic makes that tactic even better, by adding another 5' of forced movement for another 2d4 damage.

Even when you're using Hunter's Mark, you aren't going to be moving it every round, so you'll still have unused BAs on some rounds where Telekinetic can fill in. Plus you can use it defensively too, to reposition a teammate to move them out of an enemy's reach and allow them to move away on their turn without having to Disengage.

Yes, you will have rounds where you aren't using your other bonus-action-requiring options. However, that you are 'filling in' at all is my point. Compared to a build which doesn't have many uses for their bonus actions, the relative value of this feat is potentially lessoned (similar to how PAM or XBE are suggested for battlemasters more frequently than for samurai, despite the samurai having plenty of rounds where they won't be using Fighting Spirit). Spike Growth is a great spell and a great use for your concentration... when you can control the battle situation sufficiently that keeping the high-value targets near (and your allies not in) a 20' radius area is practical. Selecting a feat specifically to up the drag-through damage from 6d4 to 8d4 would, IMO, be putting a lot of eggs in one tactical basket (and Hunter's Mark is still a very good alternate --and low-cost-- choice, for the situations where Spike Growth won't work well). The other varied uses for the telekinetic push/pull may make the difference, and it is somewhat frustrating that a swarmkeeper can throw enemies around 15', but can't pull their allies back 5', so thematically it works well.

[nickl_2000]

Yes, you will have rounds where you aren't using your other bonus-action-requiring options. However, that you are 'filling in' at all is my point. Compared to a build which doesn't have many uses for their bonus actions, the relative value of this feat is potentially lessoned (similar to how PAM or XBE are suggested for battlemasters more frequently than for samurai, despite the samurai having plenty of rounds where they won't be using Fighting Spirit). Spike Growth is a great spell and a great use for your concentration... when you can control the battle situation sufficiently that keeping the high-value targets near (and your allies not in) a 20' radius area is practical. Selecting a feat specifically to up the drag-through damage from 6d4 to 8d4 would, IMO, be putting a lot of eggs in one tactical basket (and Hunter's Mark is still a very good alternate --and low-cost-- choice, for the situations where Spike Growth won't work well). The other varied uses for the telekinetic push/pull may make the difference, and it is somewhat frustrating that a swarmkeeper can throw enemies around 15', but can't pull their allies back 5', so thematically it works well.

I mean, technically you could pull your allies back 15 ft if you attack and hit them first :smallbiggrin: They usually get upset about that most of the time though. I could see it being tactically legitimate once or twice in a level 1-20 campaign.

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, technically you could pull your allies back 15 ft if you attack and hit them first :smallbiggrin: They usually get upset about that most of the time though. I could see it being tactically legitimate once or twice in a level 1-20 campaign.

Well yes. The tag is who you hit with an attack roll, not whether they are friend or foe. Shooting someone to drag them out of danger is up there with non-evokers fireballing melee engagements that include their allies in terms of 'yeah, it could be the right decision in a given instance, but I sure hope you know what you are doing.' :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

Well yes. The tag is who you hit with an attack roll, not whether they are friend or foe. Shooting someone to drag them out of danger is up there with non-evokers fireballing melee engagements that include their allies in terms of 'yeah, it could be the right decision in a given instance, but I sure hope you know what you are doing.' :smallbiggrin:

I could actually see it being practical to propel a raging barbarian just that little bit closer to a target to get them in melee range. It could be worth the (1d4+dex)/2 damage on from a sling for the movement.

[Willie the Duck]

I could actually see it being practical to propel a raging barbarian just that little bit closer to a target to get them in melee range. It could be worth the (1d4+dex)/2 damage on from a sling for the movement.

Easily, although once you factor in the drawing of the sling (and dropping your bow) maybe just stick with the bow and apologize profusely later.

[nickl_2000]

Easily, although once you factor in the drawing of the sling (and dropping your bow) maybe just stick with the bow and apologize profusely later.

And use that extra speed from being a Ranger to run very far and fast until raging ends!

[Witty Username]

As an aside, I discounted the gunner feat since that doesn't sound like archer to me, but if you are more going for ranged attacker then it could be a good alternative to crossbow expert. Musket can play better with hunter's mark in comparison to hand crossbow for example.

[stoutstien]

As an aside, I discounted the gunner feat since that doesn't sound like archer to me, but if you are more going for ranged attacker then it could be a good alternative to crossbow expert. Musket can play better with hunter's mark in comparison to hand crossbow for example.

Overall it's just better for ranged PCs unless you are using a crossbow. If you plan on using a bow there no reason to to take CBE over gunner.

[nickl_2000]

Overall it's just better for ranged PCs unless you are using a crossbow. If you plan on using a bow there no reason to to take CBE over gunner.

It's interesting that the gunner feat in a game without guns is actually more effective than crossbow expert, but I absolutely agree with you in this case.

Although, I'm not excessively worried about melee range. I've got plenty of ways to get away from other people (or get them away from me as a swarmkeeper) or can just pull a shortsword if I need to be in melee.

[stoutstien]

Personally I wouldn't go deeper than grabbing SS with Archery style. After that i would look to make sure I have tools for when I don't want to just attack.

[nickl_2000]

Personally I wouldn't go deeper than grabbing SS with Archery style. After that i would look to make sure I have tools for when I don't want to just attack.

That is my plan with this character, piercer or skill expert is a better use of the few ASIs/Half-Feats that I will get since fighter won't be involved.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Unfortunately your CON isn’t odd, because Resilient: Constitution is the first feat I usually get as an Archer Ranger. You can still attack well with DEX 16 thanks to Archery fighting style, but having reliable Concentration checks is amazing.

[Witty Username]

Overall it's just better for ranged PCs unless you are using a crossbow. If you plan on using a bow there no reason to to take CBE over gunner.

Fair enough, although I wouldn't personally reccomend those feats unless you were planning on using the associated weapons.