How would you optimize a Gunslinger?

[Pallock44]

Our DM recently announced our next campaign and I wanted to try our Gunslinger. How would you optimize this subclass? Probably going variant human.

[Dork_Forge]

Are Tasha's optional rules on the table?

I'd personally go with Ghostwise Halfling over V. Human and then stick with the pistol if memory serves (just carry loaded back ups), being able to skirt around misfires is a huge help. It's late and I'm tired but did a video on this a while back (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nW4jZ8wYU8), there's a build guide in the descritpion if it'll help.

[Witty Username]

Gunslinger is in competition with Crossbow expert, so my thought is that the obvious choice is a build that wants to use its bonus action for things other than the crossbow attack.

This leads to my first thought to be Ranger. So musket rifle + hunter's mark or another spell/effect that uses bonus actions. Gloomstalker for an extra attack on the first round and you have a lot of surprise round burst.

Edit: Oh, your talking about the homebrew fighter subclass, not the Gunner feat. Ignore me. :smallredface:

[Zhorn]

If you're going gunslinger for theme primarily over the specific subclass, I'd suggest to at least consider a battle master using the gunner feat instead.
Maneuvers will give you most of the same benefits of the trick shots, but using superiority dice instead of grit will mean you are less MAD, and dodges the clunk that comes with the misfire mechanic. Plus no pesky reloads chewing up you action economy.

[Protolisk]

If you're going gunslinger for theme primarily over the specific subclass, I'd suggest to at least consider a battle master using the gunner feat instead.
Maneuvers will give you most of the same benefits of the trick shots, but using superiority dice instead of grit will mean you are less MAD, and dodges the clunk that comes with the misfire mechanic. Plus no pesky reloads chewing up you action economy.

I second everything said here. It has been a while since I read Gunslinger, but if my memory serves, there was basically nothing in the subclass that worked better than Battlemaster did right out the box.

[Sigreid]

You could consider 3 levels of Aritificer for the repeating shot infusion. Especially if your group tracks ammo but it also makes it magical and +1.

[Dork_Forge]

and dodges the clunk that comes with the misfire mechanic.

This depends on what gun system the DM chooses rather than the subclass OP chooses,


You could consider 3 levels of Aritificer for the repeating shot infusion. Especially if your group tracks ammo but it also makes it magical and +1.

Grabbing Repeating Shot is a great choice for someone wanting to use guns, if you're only looking for that benefit though you only need 2 levels not 3.

[stoutstien]

I would have to second halfling in some form to really cut down on misfire rates(DM firearm choice pending) or some form of elf to increase grit recharge rates with EA.
After that you really have to decide if you want to play more like a BM tossing out trick shots here and there to add utility and a little damage or go all white death and use violent shot/ piercing to get paladin level burst damage.

[Zhorn]

This depends on what gun system the DM chooses rather than the subclass OP chooses
this is a fair point
Being said though, the misfire rules are not from official 5e RAW
Any advice we give on the forums can be negated with "this all depends on what unofficial homebrew rules the DM chooses to use", which ultimately isn't helpful to anyone
The DM might have a 100 page house rules doc that flips everything on its head, or could have a very minimalist approach to rules changes, and we just don't know.
Best we can do is use RAW as a common shared point of reference for basing advice off, to which end if the Critical Role gunslinger isn't being used, then there's no reason to assume misfires will be used either.
Insisting on misfires is like insisting on fumble rolls, only worse. Instead if disproportionately affecting matials more than casters, it's now specifically affecting just one type of weapon using martial

edit:
I may have misunderstood your meaning
I'm assuming it was as "The DM could use misfire rules anyway"
since there are mechanics inside the Critical Role's gunslinger that specifically call to using the misfire numbers, so the subclass cannot be taken as is without including that mechanic.
Meanwhile a battle master with the gunner feat has no links to misfires at all in official RAW.

[Dork_Forge]

this is a fair point
Being said though, the misfire rules are not from official 5e RAW
Any advice we give on the forums can be negated with "this all depends on what unofficial homebrew rules the DM chooses to use", which ultimately isn't helpful to anyone
The DM might have a 100 page house rules doc that flips everything on its head, or could have a very minimalist approach to rules changes, and we just don't know.
Best we can do is use RAW as a common shared point of reference for basing advice off, to which end if the Critical Role gunslinger isn't being used, then there's no reason to assume misfires will be used either.
Insisting on misfires is like insisting on fumble rolls, only worse. Instead if disproportionately affecting matials more than casters, it's now specifically affecting just one type of weapon using martial

I agree with RAW being a touch stone in general, that said I disagreed with misfires being a perk of not taking Gunslinger when they are not necessarily part and parcel, and thought it was worth mentioning since whilst DMG firearms rules exist... they're sparse to say the least. If Gunslinger is eligible then we know that the DM is presumably okay with that source material and okay with guns in general. If a player is intending to base their entire character off of firearms, the two muzzle loaders in the DMG aren't the best resource.

I don't like that something affects martials more than casters in general, I see misfires more as a balancing point of 'why isn't everyone using these rather than arrow/bolt weapons?'

[Zhorn]

I disagreed with misfires being a perk of not taking Gunslinger when they are not necessarily part and parcel
Piercing shot and Violent shot, both increase the misfire number for those attacks.
Rapid repair at lvl10 is a specific counter to suffering a misfire on your turn.
Misfires are baked into the subclass

[Sigreid]

This depends on what gun system the DM chooses rather than the subclass OP chooses,



Grabbing Repeating Shot is a great choice for someone wanting to use guns, if you're only looking for that benefit though you only need 2 levels not 3.

You're right. Off the top of my head I was mistaken when infusions come online. And it's a great infusion for anyone who wants to use a weapon that takes ammo.

[Dork_Forge]

Piercing shot and Violent shot, both increase the misfire number for those attacks.
Rapid repair at lvl10 is a specific counter to suffering a misfire on your turn.
Misfires are baked into the subclass

My point was that you could take Battlemaster and your DM could still choose to use the CR table (or any other number of tables including making their own, misfires are a common idea for old style firearm rules), in which case the Battlemaster would be no better off than anyone else using guns.

[Pallock44]

My point was that you could take Battlemaster and your DM could still choose to use the CR table (or any other number of tables including making their own, misfires are a common idea for old style firearm rules), in which case the Battlemaster would be no better off than anyone else using guns.

I appreciate all your input. Wouldn't Battlemaster still be a little bit better because I don't need Wisdom? Or does the fact that I can regain them on crits and kills even it out?

Also aside from the obvious gunner, sharpshooter, piercer, what other feats might you guys take? Would you multiclass?

[Dork_Forge]

I appreciate all your input. Wouldn't Battlemaster still be a little bit better because I don't need Wisdom? Or does the fact that I can regain them on crits and kills even it out?

Also aside from the obvious gunner, sharpshooter, piercer, what other feats might you guys take? Would you multiclass?

I think one of the strengths of the Gunslinger is that it is different from the Battlemaster and using Wisdom is part of that.

You don't need to max Wis, a +3 will be more than serviceable, but it's also Wisdom not something like INT. Wisdom is an important save later on (so much that Res:Wis is often recommended), it governs useful skills like Perception, and it opens you up for multiclasses you may want to take down the road (War Cleric, Rangers etc.).

Getting them back on kills and natural crits mediates it enough imo and encourages you to use them.

Food for thought #1: Trick shots may not add flat damage to attacks like a lot of maneuvers, but they tend to focus on the effect instead (like disarming not just disarming, but also throwing the disarmed item away)

Food for thought #2: You can get maneuvers if you want them, a Fighter has the ASIs to pull it off

Feats wise: It really depends on your race choice and whether or not you'll mutliclass etc. I would never put a standalone feat above maxing Dex for example. Lucky is just universally useful (not a fan, but its utility is undeniable), if you're an Elf/Half Elf then Elven Accuracy is great etc.

[Pallock44]

I think one of the strengths of the Gunslinger is that it is different from the Battlemaster and using Wisdom is part of that.

You don't need to max Wis, a +3 will be more than serviceable, but it's also Wisdom not something like INT. Wisdom is an important save later on (so much that Res:Wis is often recommended), it governs useful skills like Perception, and it opens you up for multiclasses you may want to take down the road (War Cleric, Rangers etc.).

Getting them back on kills and natural crits mediates it enough imo and encourages you to use them.

Food for thought #1: Trick shots may not add flat damage to attacks like a lot of maneuvers, but they tend to focus on the effect instead (like disarming not just disarming, but also throwing the disarmed item away)

Food for thought #2: You can get maneuvers if you want them, a Fighter has the ASIs to pull it off

Feats wise: It really depends on your race choice and whether or not you'll mutliclass etc. I would never put a standalone feat above maxing Dex for example. Lucky is just universally useful (not a fan, but its utility is undeniable), if you're an Elf/Half Elf then Elven Accuracy is great etc.


Ranger would be good to pick up. Cleric is ALWAYS fun and useful to me. I will get max dex by level 4 I think. 6 the latest. I agree with Lucky, idk if I just find it to be a boring feat but there are so many others I'd rather take regardless of how useful it is. I like the idea of taking some maneuvers down the road by adding a second fighting style and martial adept where the feat slots are. We can roll for stats so if I roll well I could take the feats early on.

Is there anything I should avoid? Things like look good on paper but work poorly in practice? Or just any general mistakes gunslingers tend to make. Thanks again for your help.

[Dork_Forge]

Ranger would be good to pick up. Cleric is ALWAYS fun and useful to me. I will get max dex by level 4 I think. 6 the latest. I agree with Lucky, idk if I just find it to be a boring feat but there are so many others I'd rather take regardless of how useful it is. I like the idea of taking some maneuvers down the road by adding a second fighting style and martial adept where the feat slots are. We can roll for stats so if I roll well I could take the feats early on.

Is there anything I should avoid? Things like look good on paper but work poorly in practice? Or just any general mistakes gunslingers tend to make. Thanks again for your help.

I don't like Lucky at all personally, just hard to avoid when the general topic of feats comes up.

If you're talking about using the CR Gunslinger then:

-Don't bother 'upgrading' from the pistol to the pepperbox, just carry multiple pistols.

-Unless you're using a rifle of some variety just have a one handed firearm in both hands, the fastest reload is an already loaded gun

-Don't take Winging shot, the prone condition is bad for you

-I don't value Violent shot personally, I'd rather just use other means of increasing damage

-Guns are loud, I know that as a DM I've used that against Gunslingers, so keep that in mind for the potential of combining encounters

Carrying a scimitar as a back up weapon is well advised, not just before you get Gunner, but for the times that piercing may not be the way you want to go.

Edit: Annecdotally I've seen piercing shot put to good use.