Double Expertise on Persuasion

[carrdrivesyou]

So I was looking around at the fighter stuff, and found an interesting tidbit.

The Purple Dragon Knight's 7th level ability gives you your choice of a few social skills, but the last clause states: "Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses Persuasion. You receive this benefit regardless of the skill proficiency you gain from this feature."

Combine this with the Rogue's Expertise: "At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."

There are no statements saying that these do not stack. Unlike things like the Skill Expert feat, which explicitly state: "The skill you choose must be one that isn’t already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus."

So given this lack of negating statements, does that mean that you could apply your proficiency bonus 3 or 4 times to your Persuasion roll?

[Stabbey]

You could try to get YOUR DM to approve that, but I sure as heck wouldn't allow it to stack. At level 8 that would be +12 to your Persuasion roll. At level 13, that would be +20 Persuasion - impossible to fail.

[chiefwaha]

So I was looking around at the fighter stuff, and found an interesting tidbit.

The Purple Dragon Knight's 7th level ability gives you your choice of a few social skills, but the last clause states: "Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses Persuasion. You receive this benefit regardless of the skill proficiency you gain from this feature."

Combine this with the Rogue's Expertise: "At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies."

There are no statements saying that these do not stack. Unlike things like the Skill Expert feat, which explicitly state: "The skill you choose must be one that isn’t already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus."

So given this lack of negating statements, does that mean that you could apply your proficiency bonus 3 or 4 times to your Persuasion roll?

RAW, I believe these would interact with each other fine, and I believe the wording of this would double the double(so x4), IMO

RAI, I don't believe they'd stack.

[Jakinbandw]

You could try to get YOUR DM to approve that, but I sure as heck wouldn't allow it to stack. At level 8 that would be +12 to your Persuasion roll. At level 13, that would be +20 Persuasion - impossible to fail.

I mean, by that level eloquence bards also won't roll below a 20 either. I'm not sure how this would break the game. If a player wants to be able to reliable make DC 30 checks (the highest dc possible) I don't see how it would break the game and more than a wizard being able to cast wish or a cleric being able to summon their God once per week to resolve problems.

[PhantomSoul]

PHB p. 12:


Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die
roll or other number more than once. Occasionally, your
proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved,
for example) before you apply it. If a circumstance
suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than
once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied
more than once, you nevertheless add it only once,
multiply it only once, and halve it only once.

Emphasis mine, but crucially nope.

[Dork_Forge]

PHB p. 12:



Emphasis mine, but crucially nope.

Beat me to it but this^

If you're looking to make extremely high bonuses then you need to look for other things like:

Expertise+Guidance+Samurai level 7 feature

[LudicSavant]

There are no statements saying that these do not stack.

Except for the statement that says exactly that.



Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified(doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once.

If you want to get Persuasion bonuses that stack with Expertise, there's a ton of ways to do that, but Purple Dragon Knight is not one of them.

Edit Shadow Monk'd by PhantomSoul.

[RedMage125]

RAW, I believe these would interact with each other fine, and I believe the wording of this would double the double(so x4), IMO

RAI, I don't believe they'd stack.

I disagree. RAW, they use the same wording, so the proficiency bonus is already doubled. If you took Rogue Expertise first, the PDK ability is essentially wasted. If you take PDK first, you would need to choose a different skill with your Expertise. I know we think of it as having a proficiency bonus twice as high, but the way it's worded means that, for example, a Rogue is simply proficient in a given skill, but when a roll is made, the bonus is doubled. Things like advantage from multiple sources don't stack. Why would doubling proficiency bonus?

The line "you receive this benefit regardless of the skill proficiency gained with this feature" clarifies that the double proficiency for Persuasion applies, even if a different skill proficiency was gained at level 7. Because a PDK who is already proficient in Persuasion who hits level 7 gets to choose a different skill to be proficient with. But the double bonus applies only to Persuasion, and not to the other skill gained at 7, if applicable.

[Jakinbandw]

Darn, then the best out there is still a redemption Paladin with the expertise feat, buffed by a bardic inspiration and a peace cleric's emboldened bond for a total of:

5+6+6+5+1d4+1d12+d20 for a minimum roll of 25, a maximum roll of 58, and an average roll of 41.

[LudicSavant]

If you want to be good at persuading people as a Fighter, I suggest Samurai (which gets a Persuasion bonus that stacks with Expertise, and basically gets to save a feat on Res:Wis, which they can then re-invest in a social feat. Also, they're just a generally better class).

[chiefwaha]

PHB p. 12:



Emphasis mine, but crucially nope.

Wasn't aware of this particular rule, but it very obviously rules out multiple ways of gaining proficiency bonus. Thank you for expanding my knowledge of the rules.

[nickl_2000]

RAW and RAI, probably not but debatable.


RAF.... The PC is playing a Purple Dragon Knight Fighter, widely considered the worst subclass in the game, give them something to make them feel special!

[stoutstien]

If you want to be good at persuading people as a Fighter, I suggest Samurai (which gets a Persuasion bonus that stacks with Expertise, and basically gets to save a feat on Res:Wis, which they can then re-invest in a social feat. Also, they're just a generally better class).

Could probably swing a 3 lv fey wonder ranger dip. You'd lose strength before death but would be a solid kit even with a lower Cha score.

[RogueJK]

Samurai gets +WIS to Persuasion, which would stack with Expertise, but Fey Wanderer Rangers get +WIS to all face skills (not just Persuasion), and that comes online at Ranger 3 instead of Fighter 7. Plus they have additional uses for a high WIS than a Fighter does.

Then you could take Skill Expert for +1 CHA or WIS and Expertise in Persuasion to stack on top. Or you could dip 3 levels of Eloquence Bard for Persuasion Expertise plus Silver Tongue.

A Fey Wanderer Ranger 3/Eloquence Bard 3 with 16 WIS and CHA can't get below a 22 on a Persuasion roll, at Character Level 6. (Minimum 10 +3 WIS +3 CHA +3 PROF +3 Expertise)

[BoxANT]

expertise
guidance
enhance ability
emboldening bond
artificer (alchemist) potion
20 charisma

or just make a bard from the school of eloquence