Calling all build creators! We must conjure the Musical Necromancer

[Nemenia]

So I checked the forums and couldn't find any sign that this has been discussed, and I just needed to make a post about it. The only thing better then a necromancer is one that necromances with music! There isn't alot of typical inspiration for this kind of thing, surprisingly, but my personal favorite is as it's depicted in Mo Dao Zu Shi (Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation). It's alright if you haven't seen it before, as the basic premise is pretty easy to nail down.

Our Necrodancer needs to be able to summon undead and empower them with his/her song. In the anime they are also capable melee fighters and exorcists as well, but that seems like a tall order to put on an already somewhat awkward class, so it isn't required.

My first though was of course some sort of Valor/Swords Bard + Wizard Necromancer, but this seems to require 2 very high mental stats, or only taking spells from one that require next to 0 saves and attack rolls. This seems like it might be possible, but I wanted your thoughts. It seems like a 6B/14W split might be the best outcome.

Another option could actually be Bard + Cleric, A Death Cleric with a dip in Bard could provide a pretty accomplished necromancer, although their summons would be considerably less strong then that of the Wizard, in return we get a much more personally powerful character

The third option seems to be the easiest from a mechanical standpoint, Bard + Warlock, only requiring a maxed Cha, being decent in melee, and as long as you keep either dip to 3, you could still reach 9th level spells, but do either of these classes really make good necromancers on their own? From what I've seen, it's not really the case.

So, thoughts?

[quindraco]

Just make an actual necromancer wizard and be proficient in an instrument and perform, so you have advantage when you play it. The rest is flavor.

[Evaar]

A Bladesinger:
* Can animate the dead
* Gains free proficiency in Performance
* Can cast a variety of spells that would be useful for exorcism
* Is decent in melee

This does everything you want it to do, plus the extra stuff you thought might not be possible within a single build.

The only downside is that you don't get the extra buffs to your summons from being a focused Necromancer. But you get all of the important undead summoning/controlling tools.

[RogueJK]

What do Bard levels get you? You can be an accomplished singer without any levels in Bard...

There are several classes with the built-in ability to buff undead minions, and you can just reflavor those undead buffs as being from their singing. Then you can get Performance proficiency from your background. Perhaps something like a Necromancer Wizard with the Skill Expert feat for Expertise in Performance. If you have the stats for it, maybe take a level of Death Cleric, Artificer, or Fighter first for some weapon and armor/shield proficiencies, to be able to hang in melee with BB/GFB at times. That gets you singing, buffed undead minions, and some martial capability.

Or if you really must have some Bard levels, an Oathbreaker Paladin 7 or 9/Bard X would get you Bard levels plus buffed undead minions, and would also have the martial capability you're wanting, without being too terribly MAD (well, any more so than any other Paladin).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Single-class Lore Bard.

At 6th level pick Animate Dead and Summon Undead.
At 10th level take Danse Macabre and Negative Energy Flood.
At 14th level get Create Undead and Magic Jar.
At 18th level pick up any other necromancy or thematically appropriate spells you want.

[Nemenia]

Just make an actual necromancer wizard and be proficient in an instrument and perform, so you have advantage when you play it. The rest is flavor.

I get that flavor is important, and can make a concept almost as much as mechanics, but there are 2 things that I consider important. Firstly, I want the music to *be* the magic that brings the dead forth, just playing it while doing magic the normal way isn't as fun, at least to me. Secondly, the bard's ability to support their allies with inspiration, especially the Valor Bard's combat inspiration, really adds to the feel of being an undead musician, I think.

[Nemenia]

Single-class Lore Bard.

At 6th level pick Animate Dead and Summon Undead.
At 10th level take Danse Macabre and Negative Energy Flood.
At 14th level get Create Undead and Magic Jar.
At 18th level pick up any other necromancy or thematically appropriate spells you want.

This is on the table, and one of my original ideas, but I feel like you greatly miss out on several elements doing it this way. You lose out on any sort of buffs to your undead that can be provided through valor bard, wizard, or cleric, and really shoehorn yourself into one role in combat, spending *all* your magical secrets on it. But yes, it certainly can work.

[Nemenia]

A Bladesinger:
* Can animate the dead
* Gains free proficiency in Performance
* Can cast a variety of spells that would be useful for exorcism
* Is decent in melee

This does everything you want it to do, plus the extra stuff you thought might not be possible within a single build.

The only downside is that you don't get the extra buffs to your summons from being a focused Necromancer. But you get all of the important undead summoning/controlling tools.

I hadn't actually thought about bladesinger! It does give up the undead buffs, but in return you're much more dangerous in melee. I like this, but I dislike that there's no music directly involved beyond flavor. If you had to make it a dip, what would you say is a good cut off for BS versus a Bard?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I hadn't actually thought about bladesinger! It does give up the undead buffs, but in return you're much more dangerous in melee. I like this, but I dislike that there's no music directly involved beyond flavor. If you had to make it a dip, what would you say is a good cut off for BS versus a Bard?
Probably 6/14 again-- if you're taking five levels of Wizard for Animate Dead, you might as well add one more for Extra Attack. Especially with the new version in Tasha's that lets you replace one of the two attacks with a cantrip.

[Nemenia]

What do Bard levels get you? You can be an accomplished singer without any levels in Bard...

There are several classes with the built-in ability to buff undead minions, and you can just reflavor those undead buffs as being from their singing. Then you can get Performance proficiency from your background. Perhaps something like a Necromancer Wizard with the Skill Expert feat for Expertise in Performance. If you have the stats for it, maybe take a level of Death Cleric, Artificer, or Fighter first for some weapon and armor/shield proficiencies, to be able to hang in melee with BB/GFB at times. That gets you singing, buffed undead minions, and some martial capability.

Or if you really must have some Bard levels, an Oathbreaker Paladin 7 or 9/Bard X would get you Bard levels plus buffed undead minions, and would also have the martial capability you're wanting, without being too terribly MAD (well, any more so than any other Paladin).

I forgot to include it in my post, but I'm going for low armor. Less commander of the undead. Also, as mentioned in a different reply, the music being what actually *summons and controls* the undead feels key to this idea. You ask what bard levels get me? A class that can do this, while also being an accomplished support and decent melee skirmisher. As for a dip into cleric, artificer, or fighter, what build would take those, exactly?

[Nemenia]

Probably 6/14 again-- if you're taking five levels of Wizard for Animate Dead, you might as well add one more for Extra Attack. Especially with the new version in Tasha's that lets you replace one of the two attacks with a cantrip.

Well I'm of 2 minds about this. A couple bard subclasses also give extra attack. If we were to go Bladesinger 6, I don't know if I'd want to go valor bard and have that wasted feature tacked on. What subclass would be a good replacement? Swords might be worth it despite the extra attack, or maybe the new Spirits one? (Which I'm actually on the fence about, I was really hoping for a necromancer bard and that is not what we got)

[RogueJK]

As for a dip into cleric, artificer, or fighter, what build would take those, exactly?

As stated, a Necromancer Wizard with the Performance skill, dipping 1 level in Cleric/Artificer/Fighter for armor/weapon/shield proficiencies:


Perhaps something like a Necromancer Wizard with the Skill Expert feat for Expertise in Performance. If you have the stats for it, maybe take a level of Death Cleric, Artificer, or Fighter first for some weapon and armor/shield proficiencies, to be able to hang in melee with BB/GFB at times. That gets you singing, buffed undead minions, and some martial capability.


But based on the additional wants you've provided in subsequent replies, it sounds like it's going to be tough to check all your boxes. You're wanting low armor, so that means high DEX (unless you're willing to play as a Tortle). You're wanting melee capability, so that means STR or DEX, unless you dip Hexblade for CHA. You'll also need decent CON for concentration, since you'll be a primary caster. Plus CHA for Bard stuff. Plus INT for Wizard stuff if you go Bladesinger or Necromancer. That's a pretty MAD character.

A pure Bard doesn't get you any specific undead buffs, although Bardic Inspiration could get you partway there. A Necromancer doesn't get you any directly singing-related buffs, although it's be easy to use your imagination to make their built-in buffs come from your characters' singing. And a Warlock/Cleric/Bladesinger/etc. doesn't get you any of either.

An Oathbreaker Palabard could have both singing-related buffs and undead buffs, but will usually only be doable as an already-fairly-MAD STR/CON/CHA build with heavy armor, unless you happen to get just ungodly stat rolls and can also have a high DEX for light armor AC and melee plus a 13ish STR for multiclassing purposes.

So you need to consider which parts of your wish list are less of a priority. You can rather easily do some, though not all, of what you're wanting. The kicker is you wanting all of the undead buffs to come specifically from the singing, which no class in 5E is currently set up all that well to do. Lore Bard will probably get you the closest, although still not 100% of the way there, and even then you'd have to compromise on melee capability. A singing-fluffed Necromancer would likely be more optimal as a Undead Commander, if you're willing to compromise on the "buffs must come from the singing" aspect. Or an Oathbreaker Palabard if you're willing to compromise on the light armor aspect.

[Segev]

The straight lore bard is the best way to do this, with his bardic inspiration enabling various things for his undead minions. A valor bard would be, sadly, slower, losing out on magical secrets at sixth level and thus not getting animate dead for much longer, but could empower their combat. A Necromancer 19/Bard 1 (taking Bard whenever convenient) could just get bardic inspiration to use on his undead.

But I think an important consideration is his musical style. I submit the following song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RVeo79yfw0

You could also make a custom magic item. Have the necromancer be its creator. It requires playing it (it's a musical instrument) as an action every round it's active, but can cast danse macabre at will. Probably Very Rare, but not Legendary, because it's a high-level spell at will but with more than Concentration required. MAYBE Rare if it requires a necromancer or bard to attune it.

[Evaar]

I hadn't actually thought about bladesinger! It does give up the undead buffs, but in return you're much more dangerous in melee. I like this, but I dislike that there's no music directly involved beyond flavor. If you had to make it a dip, what would you say is a good cut off for BS versus a Bard?

I wouldn't.

Everything about the Bladesinger is already song and dance based. Every one of your features except "Extra Attack" has the word "Song" in it. The only difference is you aren't actually using a musical instrument as your spellcasting focus. But you use Bladesong, you get Performance, you sing magic and dance through melee. It's just on you to describe it. Vocal and Somatic components are song and dance.

If you really want a spellcasting focus that's an instrument, here are some ideas -
Reflavor a component pouch as a drum tied to your belt; you still need a free hand to utilize it and it otherwise functions identically to a component pouch
Your wand is a flute that you hold to your lips and play one-handed
Your sword is crafted with holes that cause it to whistle as you swing it and rings that chime as you strike, so you actually perform a song as you fight
Your staff and blade are both slightly curved and stringed, so you actually run the back of your blade across the staff's strings like a bow and cello as you cast spells

All of these are just flavor additions and keep with the RAW of using a spellcasting focus/component pouch consistent with Wizard class features.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well I'm of 2 minds about this. A couple bard subclasses also give extra attack. If we were to go Bladesinger 6, I don't know if I'd want to go valor bard and have that wasted feature tacked on. What subclass would be a good replacement? Swords might be worth it despite the extra attack, or maybe the new Spirits one? (Which I'm actually on the fence about, I was really hoping for a necromancer bard and that is not what we got)
Probably not Swords, not if you're hoping to use Bardic Inspiration dice on your minions. I'd say maybe Whispers? Fear is a pretty necromancer-y thing to play with, and Psychic Blades is a decent way to use Inspiration to boost your own weapon skills.


The straight lore bard is the best way to do this, with his bardic inspiration enabling various things for his undead minions.
Embarrassed I didn't think about this-- if nothing else, a straight Lore Bard will certainly get your schtick going faster than any multiclass combo. Play a variant human/custom lineage to start the game with Moderately Armored, and throw in Shield Master at 4th. You won't be cutting a swathe of destruction with your sword or anything, but with Expertise you'll be pretty good at knocking people down for your minions to swarm.


I wouldn't.
Also this. I should think that the vast majorities of DMs would let you swap the Wizard's normal spellcasting focus options for musical instruments. And while I can't speak for anyone else, if you told me you weren't planning multiclass shennanigans I'd happily let you switch their spellcasting to Charisma.

If they're really open, I wrote up a brief discussion of a Charisma-based Wizard for my upcoming Grimoire of the Grotesque (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/359663/Grods-Grimoire-of-the-Grotesque).


Charisma: The Maestro
Music has a power all its own. In D&D, this is traditionally the domain of the Bard, but a Charisma-focused Wizard makes an interesting alternative. Instead of a spellbook, Maestros use magical instruments of their own construction. They have no need to record their spells in a book—instead of magical inks, they use mystical incenses to fix their spell-songs firmly in their minds. And when they prepare their spells, they do not fill their minds with magic just awaiting completion. Instead, the spells they can cast are a function of the way they tune their instrument, and the specific strings, valves, hammers, and other mechanical elements that make it up.

Maestros do not need spellbooks—they can prepare any spell they know, like a Cleric. However, learning a new spell requires the same amount of time and gold-- this money simply represents new components for their instrument, mystical incenses to aid the memorization of the spell, and so on.

Maestros cannot cast their spells without using a specific instrument as their arcane focus. They begin play with one already attuned to their magic. If it is ever lost or destroyed, creating a replacement is a difficult process, requiring many expensive materials and ceremonies. Worse, the longer they have used one instrument, the harder it is to attune to another. Creating a replacement instrument takes two hours of work and 25gp per Wizard level. Maestros may only ever have one attuned instrument at a time.

Maestros can attune to Instruments of the Bards, which can be used as their arcane focus without requiring special preparation.

[Nemenia]

I wouldn't.

Everything about the Bladesinger is already song and dance based. Every one of your features except "Extra Attack" has the word "Song" in it. The only difference is you aren't actually using a musical instrument as your spellcasting focus. But you use Bladesong, you get Performance, you sing magic and dance through melee. It's just on you to describe it. Vocal and Somatic components are song and dance.

If you really want a spellcasting focus that's an instrument, here are some ideas -
Reflavor a component pouch as a drum tied to your belt; you still need a free hand to utilize it and it otherwise functions identically to a component pouch
Your wand is a flute that you hold to your lips and play one-handed
Your sword is crafted with holes that cause it to whistle as you swing it and rings that chime as you strike, so you actually perform a song as you fight
Your staff and blade are both slightly curved and stringed, so you actually run the back of your blade across the staff's strings like a bow and cello as you cast spells

All of these are just flavor additions and keep with the RAW of using a spellcasting focus/component pouch consistent with Wizard class features.

Alright well that's a wrap. These are all really cool ideas, and you make a good point that bladesong is a kind of music. Although I might consider a 3-4 dip in bard just to get some inspiration and utility. Otherwise I love these!

[BoxANT]

bard (lore) with Inspiring Leader feat (plays a song) to buff his skeletons.

[Segev]

bard (lore) with Inspiring Leader feat (plays a song) to buff his skeletons.

Pity there's no way to share the caster's proficiencies with his minions. Giving them Perform:Dance so they can keep rhythm would be awesome.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Here's my take:

There is no "normal way" to cast spells, every wizard has to convert spells they learn into notation specific to their own unique style. Yours is music. All your magic is cast with music. Your spell book is a magnificent composition, reams of sheet music and lyrics. Your verbal components are sung, your somatic components are a wave of your conductor's wand, or the stokes of the bow on your viol.

Character Sheet. (https://ddb.ac/characters/51573212/jMTn13) The grand song you play stirs the dead from their graves, allows you to start "dancin' on the ceilin'" and fills you with an unnatural hunger for the energy of the crowd. It's pure wizard/entertainer.

[Unoriginal]

I suggest the spell Summon Undead, rather than Animate Dead.