Oath of Watchers Paladin

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey, so I haven't had the opportunity to see the Oath of Watcher paladin in play yet, but I've seen a few people citing how incredibly strong this subclass is. Can someone let me in on the secret here? I'm just very confused, because when I look at them they seem fairly situational. What am I missing?

[Sorinth]

I haven't seen it in play myself but I assume the bonus to initiative is very strong. If every PC gets a turn before the enemy it can certainly swing combat in their favour.

[verbatim]

Giving everyone advantage on mental saves as a channel Divinity can trivialize certain encounters, and the capstone perma-banishing extraplanars on a failed save is very good.

One of my players ran a Watchers paladin in a 1-20 campaign and shut down every encounter with mindflayers and/or gith, which is admittedly the ideal opponents for the subclass.


I don't considered the subclass overpowered. More than anything its abilities can sometimes be situational, but are very strong in said situations.

[Man_Over_Game]

Giving everyone advantage on mental saves as a channel Divinity can trivialize certain encounters, and the capstone perma-banishing extraplanars on a failed save is very good.

One of my players ran a Watchers paladin in a 1-20 campaign and shut down every encounter with mindflayers and/or gith, which is admittedly the ideal opponents for the subclass.


I don't considered the subclass overpowered. More than anything its abilities can sometimes be situational, but are very strong in said situations.

That's kinda what I was thinking about it.

Doesn't do anything in 70% of scenarios. Absolutely dominates the remaining 30%.

Key thing to remember is that, regardless of how much math favors the Berserker Barbarian, players will still prefer the Champion Fighter.

Consistency is more important with a playstyle than its contribution, at least when it comes to having fun.

So even if it is good in the right circumstances, you know it obviously tanked because nobody is playing it.

[CheddarChampion]

"Incredibly strong" seems like an overstatement to me.

Advantage has, at best, a 25% chance to turn a failure into a success. In ideal circumstances, if your party makes 8 mental saves (much more than most combats) you've used your action to turn 2 failures into successes.

The turning effect, on the other hand, certainly fits the bill. If your party plays along, control effects that don't allow subsequent saves can be encounter ending. If you're facing the right types of enemy and the DM rolls low this is practically an "I win" button.

An initiative bonus is okay. I value a high initiative less than others do. Starting combat all grouped up is dangerous though - if you get ambushed, AOE spells will be highly effective against you. At low levels the boost is low and at high levels AoEs are more common.

Counterspell is good, I'll give it that.

Banishment is... alright. You're a Paladin, would it be better to try to banish something... or hit it with a longsword and use a 4th level slot to smite for 9d8+2xStr (Extra Attack, Improved Divine Smite)? Yes, Banishment is sometimes the answer, but creatures that deserve single target CC at level 13 and higher are still going to be problems if and when they reappear.

Vigilant Rebuke is meh. You may occasionally spend your reaction to do 14 damage on average, that's not impressive at level 15.

Mortal Bulwark is indeed really good... if you get to play at level 20 and you're fighting the right type of enemy.

So you get one weak & conditional CD, one potentially dominating but conditional CD, a meh aura, one good spell, one spell with a big opportunity cost that comes online too late, an underwhelming & conditional reaction, and a strong but conditional capstone if you ever get to play at level 20.

[PattThe]

How about multiclassing? I have an NPC in a small party with Thief 4 Paladin 2, about to enter Watchers whenever the RP fits. The campaign involves thwarting demons pretty often. Thoughts on the dips?

[stoutstien]

It's probably the top of the support oriented options. A player who thought dumping wisdom was a good idea trying to pass a DC goes from 25% to 44% with advantage and 64% with a +3 AoP. It works better for a standard tuned party.

It also just does a lot of different stuff so it doesn't feel super restraining in options. Hard to call it OP but it's definitely good.

[LudicSavant]

Hey, so I haven't had the opportunity to see the Oath of Watcher paladin in play yet, but I've seen a few people citing how incredibly strong this subclass is. Can someone let me in on the secret here? I'm just very confused, because when I look at them they seem fairly situational. What am I missing?

Here's an example of what an optimized single class Watchers Paladin can do: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938. Among other things, this build basically converts your entire party into an alpha-strike team that can turn Deadly encounters to slurry before they can act.

The main reason Watchers Paladin is good is the aura. It also has a solid spell list, and its situational channel divinities matter less when Harness Divine Power is available.

The Aura
The party-wide initiative bonus is a top shelf aura. You're basically handing out the most important bullet point of the Alert feat to the entire party (and even their little familiars and such, too). It's like you spent enough spell slots to spam Gift of Alacrity on everyone. Except it also stacks with Gift of Alacrity!

The difference between winning and losing initiative is effectively an entire extra round of actions relative to Team Monster. Basically, any time a lost initiative turns into a won initiative, you got an effect that is bigger than Action Surge. An initiative bonus can be thought of kinda like a % chance of gaining those extra actions.

And when you're adding that % chance to the whole party, it comes up quite a bit.

To try and make it more intuitive just how valuable a party-wide +5 to initiative is, I suggest the following experiment. In your games, count how often a party member loses initiative to Team Monster by 5 or less. Now, every time that happens, mentally insert "If a Watcher was here, they would have just gotten an entire extra turn." Count how many turns would have been generated, and think about how impactful each of those turns would be.

Additional factors to consider: you roll initiative in every fight. You don't get charmed in every fight (Devotion) or hit with a damaging spell in every fight (Ancients). Also, "have people within 10 feet of you when the fight starts" is an easier condition than "have people within 10 feet of you when an enemy hits them with a damaging spell" (which can come at any time, and is also easier to counterplay -- for example you can knock someone outside of an aura before nuking them, or use abilities that aren't direct damage spells, or you can take advantage of the party sticking to Fireball formation to trap them all in a control effect, or the like).

Channel Divinities
The CDs are rather situational. But that matters less if Harness Divine Power is in play, giving you a good non-situational use of your CD.

The spell list
It has Counterspell on it and is therefore a good spell list. The rest (like Banishment) is icing.

It also has a decent breadth of situational counters always prepared:

Nondetection and Scrying help it out in information wars. Also, Nondetection counters some of the stuff that can normally counter stealthy alpha strike parties, making Watchers even more suitable for that playstyle. See Invisibility is a 1 hour counter that doesn't eat Concentration. Moonbeam is kind of a "break glass in case of shapechangers" option.

Higher level abilities

The 15th level ability doesn't matter much (it's kind of a 'win harder when you're already winning' ability), I rate it practically as a ribbon. The 20th level ability is well worth a bonus action or 5th level slot.

___

Summary
The core feature of the Watchers Paladin (and one that's all too easy to underestimate) is that aura bonus to initiative. Besides that, as others have said: Many of the Watchers abilities are situational, but they're good in those situations, and they're covering different situations. Taken as a whole, the Watchers Paladin has a good answer to a good variety of things.

[Hytheter]

Here's an example of what an optimized single class Watchers Paladin can do: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938. Among other things, this build basically converts your entire party into an alpha-strike team that can turn Deadly encounters to slurry before they can act.

I'd just like to say that I read that just recently and I am very interested in playing it, likely will in an upcoming home game.

[Gignere]

I'd just like to say that I read that just recently and I am very interested in playing it, likely will in an upcoming home game.

I’m playing a variant of this build and that’s because DM banned GoA.

Got Feytouched to start because DM made us rolled for a random feat and I randomly got the perfect feat to go with this build, going to nab revenant blade followed by elven accuracy at 4 and 8 respectively.

The only thing I found lacking is that I can’t start using the double bladed scimitar effectively until level 4.

[Sparky McDibben]

A wild Ludic has appeared! :biggrin:

Actually, your build was what turned me onto the Watchers. Honestly, I think the disconnect here is that I tend to cut out rolling for initiative at my 1:1 table. I usually offset Initiative-boosting features by offering something else (so the swashbuckler got Unarmored Defense using Charisma). For this...I wonder if it would be too much to give everyone within the paladin's aura at the start of the first turn of combat two actions on their turn for the first turn only.

[Hytheter]

I’m playing a variant of this build and that’s because DM banned GoA.

Got Feytouched to start because DM made us rolled for a random feat and I randomly got the perfect feat to go with this build, going to nab revenant blade followed by elven accuracy at 4 and 8 respectively.

The only thing I found lacking is that I can’t start using the double bladed scimitar effectively until level 4.

Just use two scimtars and pretend. :smallwink:

Luckily I'll be starting at level 3, assuming I actually opt to use the scimitar.

[MaxWilson]

The Watcher's turn option, like Hypnotic Pattern, gets much worse if the DM metagames it by having monsters that save break the effect on the ones that failed (by inflicting minor damage).

The initiative bonus is... okay, but to get it you have to start the fight in Fireball Formation. Having to make a huge tactical mistake up front in order to possibly squeeze in more actions per combat is not an easy tradeoff to evaluate. Shadow Monks (and rangers and druids) can offer you a better option with a 30' radius instead, plus recon capabilities.

I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

[PattThe]

The Watcher's turn option, like Hypnotic Pattern, gets much worse if the DM metagames it by having monsters that save break the effect on the ones that failed (by inflicting minor damage).

The initiative bonus is... okay, but to get it you have to start the fight in Fireball Formation. Having to make a huge tactical mistake up front in order to possibly squeeze in more actions per combat is not an easy tradeoff to evaluate. Shadow Monks (and rangers and druids) can offer you a better option with a 30' radius instead, plus recon capabilities.

I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

Bugbear 1: -stops fighting-
Bugbear 2: "Quit it." -bonk-
Bugbear 1: "Right. I hit you after fight tho."
Bugbear 2: "You try I hit you first."

I see nothing wrong with this.

[Gignere]

The Watcher's turn option, like Hypnotic Pattern, gets much worse if the DM metagames it by having monsters that save break the effect on the ones that failed (by inflicting minor damage).

The initiative bonus is... okay, but to get it you have to start the fight in Fireball Formation. Having to make a huge tactical mistake up front in order to possibly squeeze in more actions per combat is not an easy tradeoff to evaluate. Shadow Monks (and rangers and druids) can offer you a better option with a 30' radius instead, plus recon capabilities.

I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

Starting in fireball formation is actually not a big deal if you can generally win initiative. Say half the team that would have gone after the enemy spell caster now goes faster you’ll be out of fireball formation after the first turn.

Unless your DM is constantly surprising you against spell casters. That’s another problem.

[LudicSavant]

tl;dr version of my first post in thread:

- The Watchers Paladin aura is competitive with the very best Paladin auras. It basically is generating extra actions at a respectable rate, at what is often the most important time to take actions (right when the fight starts).
- CDs are useful but situational. This disadvantage can be minimized because Harness Divine Power balances their CDs out with a good non-situational option.
- Spell list has Counterspell. Counterspell gud, therefore spell list gud.
- Rest of spell list is decent -- spells on it are situational, but cover *different* situations (See Invisibility, Nondetection, Scrying, Banishment, anti-Shapechanger-beam Moonbeam are all things I definitely don't mind having prepared).
- Level 15 ability is practically a ribbon (it's a bit of a "win more when you're already winning" card)
- Level 20 ability is a good use of a bonus action, or the 5th level slot to refresh it.


Shadow Monks (and rangers and druids) And Watchers Paladins! The one being discussed right above your post has Pass Without Trace.


but to get it you have to start the fight in Fireball Formation

in order to possibly squeeze in more actions per combat is not an easy tradeoff to evaluate

The possibility of squeezing in more actions per combat is high when a bonus of that size is applied to multiple characters (thus giving you multiple chances at extra actions).

As for standing in Fireball formation, I think the Watchers Paladin is in pretty good shape, at least with regards to Fireballers (you may have some different AoEs in mind). But let's contrast what happens when various Paladins encounter a fireballer:

For an Ancients Paladin, everyone needs to stay in the Fireball formation, at the time that the Fireball lands, in order to get the benefit. And it will only apply specifically to damaging spells (so, not dragon breath or the like).

For a Devotion Paladin, your charm protection doesn't apply this fight.

For a Watchers Paladin, you only need to begin the fight close to each other, and some plurality of your team is probably going to go first (optimized Watchers can put double-digit initiative bonuses on the whole party). By the time the Fireballer actually gets to go, some plurality of the party has probably seized the initiative and responded to the tactical conditions of the battlefield.

Even if the Fireballer somehow actually manages to win initiative, the Watchers Paladin has Counterspell. Even if the enemy defies probability and all else fails, the players are in a Paladin aura and have some protection against the Fireball.

All of that said, you don't need everyone in your party to stay in your aura at all times. If you want to split someone off of the party just in case, you'll still be init-boosting multiple party members and it'll still be good.


I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

What do you feel the mind flayers and githyanki would be doing to turn the tables, and avoid the fates of the mindflayers and gith in verbatim's game?



One of my players ran a Watchers paladin in a 1-20 campaign and shut down every encounter with mindflayers and/or gith, which is admittedly the ideal opponents for the subclass.

[stoutstien]

I think most parties are in fireball formation more often than not when moving into the unknown. Eating a aoe blast every once in the while, which can be prevented by multiple strategies, is a simple thing to mitigate versus being spread out and beyond support range leaving room for getting separated or worse.

The watcher's aura is just an always on boost that stacks with already strong combos even if you only apply it to 1/2 the party. Heck it's a gold feature if you regularly only use it for yourself and one ally.

[Gignere]

I think most parties are in fireball formation more often than not when moving into the unknown. Eating a aoe blast every once in the while, which can be prevented by multiple strategies, is a simple thing to mitigate versus being spread out and beyond support range leaving room for getting separated or worse.

The watcher's aura is just an always on boost that stacks with already strong combos even if you only apply it to 1/2 the party. Heck it's a gold feature if you regularly only use it for yourself and one ally.

Not only that you can party optimize the aura. Like in my current party we have a war wizard, a swashbuckler, and a twilight cleric so once the watcher aura goes online you can imagine how much we’re going to dominate the initiative as a party.

[stoutstien]

Not only that you can party optimize the aura. Like in my current party we have a war wizard, a swashbuckler, and a twilight cleric so once the watcher aura goes online you can imagine how much we’re going to dominate the initiative as a party.

It has all the tall tale markers of a well-designed player option. It works for an optimized party but at the same time you can throw it in a random party of people just doing beer and pretzel level gaming and it works just fine. The oath of Glory gets some hate as well but it's similar. It's one class that they've pulled off adding some interesting new options without really moving the power curve too much which was difficult for the paladin because it's pretty well tuned.

[MaxWilson]

Starting in fireball formation is actually not a big deal if you can generally win initiative. Say half the team that would have gone after the enemy spell caster now goes faster you’ll be out of fireball formation after the first turn.

Unless your DM is constantly surprising you against spell casters. That’s another problem.

It's not just spellcasters that have AoEs in 5E.

Anyway, "he who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense", so here's some numbers on the tradeoffs. Assume there's a party of four PCs vs. N monsters, with and without a +5 bonus to initiative, and initiative ties go to the player. For each monster:


With no bonus, monster beats at least 1 PC 77.4% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 2 PCs 57.5% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 3 PCs 37.5% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 4 PCs 17.6% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 1 PC 52.4% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 2 PCs 33.0% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 3 PCs 15.6% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 4 PCs 4.0% of the time


Even with a +5 bonus to initiative, any given monster with an AoE has at least a 33% chance of catching at least two PCs in Fireball Formation before they even get a chance to act. The chance goes up if other monsters are able to do something to prevent at least one PC from moving, e.g. a grappling attack.

If the PCs aren't in Fireball Formation, that monster has a 0% chance of catching PCs in Fireball Formation unless monsters are able to do something to move at least one PC into Fireball Formation with another PC, e.g. grappling attack + high movement speed + desire to drag PCs into formation, which is a much higher bar.

Therefore it's not easy to analyze the tradeoffs between Watcher's aura vs. avoiding Fireball Formation. However, in any situation where the Watcher's 10'-range initiative bonus is helpful, Pass Without Trace is probably even more helpful, because it means you're probably in a CQB fight, and Pass Without Trace not only lets you engage on favorable terms (likely achieving a surprise round by RAW), it also lets you set the terms of engagement beforehand (e.g. engage only after you've poisoned your weapons, activated Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon, sewn caltrops outside the doorway of the building you're peering into).

It's also not easy to analyze the tradeoffs between the Watcher's aura and a Paladin of Devotion's aura, but at least for me the fact that charm effects scare me based on experience and that the Devotion aura is arguably still usable during combat (move close to a Dominated target to suppress charm and therefore suppress domination--check with your DM though on what "cannot be charmed" means) makes me lean in Devotion's favor. But I'm also biased in favor of Devotion because of RP reasons so I may not be objective here.


And Watchers Paladins! The one being discussed right above your post has Pass Without Trace.

I don't understand what this refers to. I don't see a reference to PWT in the post just before mine. Edit: oh, looks like you're talking about a specific Mark of Shadow elf build. I wouldn't call that "Watchers Paladins", more like "Mark of Shadow elves."

Edit2: And apparently it's a build which relies on material from both Eberron and Exandria? It's a a Mark of Shadow dunamancer Watcher paladin? I'd love to hear the backstory on that guy. He's from at least two different planets.


As for standing in Fireball formation, I think the Watchers Paladin is in pretty good shape, at least with regards to Fireballers (you may have some different AoEs in mind). But let's contrast what happens when various Paladins (B) encounter a fireballer:

For an Ancients Paladin, everyone needs to stay in the Fireball formation, at the time that the Fireball lands, in order to get the benefit. And it will only apply specifically to damaging spells (so, not dragon breath or the like).

For a Devotion Paladin, (C) your charm protection doesn't apply this fight.

For a Watchers Paladin, you only need to begin the fight close to each other, and some plurality of your team is probably going to go first ((A) optimized Watchers can put double-digit initiative bonuses on the whole party). By the time the Fireballer actually gets to go, some plurality of the party has probably seized the initiative and responded to the tactical conditions of the battlefield.

Even if the Fireballer somehow actually manages to win initiative, (D) the Watchers Paladin has Counterspell. Even if the enemy defies probability and all else fails, the players are in a Paladin aura and have some protection against the Fireball.

(A) "Optimized" appears to mean "has two different home planets and knows top-secret dunamancy magic because reasons". "Optimized" is not the word I would use for that.

(B) Generally I'd be less worried about Fireball (it's just 8d6 damage) than gorgon breath (turns you to stone), mind flayer mind blasts (stuns and opens you up to body snatching), dragon breath (just damage but tends to be a lot of it even for CR 6 Young White Dragons), and sometimes stuff like Fear spam from Babaus or Bodak auras. So, I acknowledge this example as a valid example but don't think it's representative.

(C) Yeah, but this isn't a representative fight.

(D) Paladins don't have the spell slots to take proper advantage of Counterspell: it's usually a bad trade for them. And this isn't a representative fight anyway. (What is this, a 9th or 10th level party fighting a bunch of CR 4 Flameskulls? And the paladin is going to blow one of his only two 3rd level slots on Counterspelling a Fireball? Better just not to be in Fireball formation in the first place, so you can save that slot for e.g. Aura of Vitality to patch up the damage from multiple Fireballs afterwards.)


(E) I think most parties are in fireball formation more often than not when moving into the unknown. Eating a aoe blast every once in the while, which can be prevented by multiple strategies, is a simple thing to mitigate versus being spread out and beyond support range leaving room for getting separated or worse.

The watcher's aura is just an always on boost that stacks with already strong combos even if you only apply it to 1/2 the party. (F) Heck it's a gold feature if you regularly only use it for yourself and one ally.

(E) You might be right, but if so I think that's a mistake. You don't have to be within 10' of each other to be in mutual support range, if you plan ahead. IME even scouting buddies are better off if they stay closer to 20' to 30' apart instead of 5' to 10' apart.

(F) I'll have to think about that one. I've definitely noticed that Alert is a great feat; but only about half of that is due to the +5 on initiative, and in the case of Watchers, the opportunity cost is high (you're giving up an anti-charm aura that can prevent TPKs).

[Gignere]

It's not just spellcasters that have AoEs in 5E.

Anyway, "he who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense", so here's some numbers on the tradeoffs. Assume there's a party of four PCs vs. N monsters, with and without a +5 bonus to initiative, and initiative ties go to the player. For each monster:


With no bonus, monster beats at least 1 PC 77.4% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 2 PCs 57.5% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 3 PCs 37.5% of the time
With no bonus, monster beats at least 4 PCs 17.6% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 1 PC 52.4% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 2 PCs 33.0% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 3 PCs 15.6% of the time
With +5 bonus, monster beats at least 4 PCs 4.0% of the time


Even with a +5 bonus to initiative, any given monster with an AoE has at least a 33% chance of catching at least two PCs in Fireball Formation before they even get a chance to act. The chance goes up if other monsters are able to do something to prevent at least one PC from moving, e.g. a grappling attack.

If the PCs aren't in Fireball Formation, that monster has a 0% chance of catching PCs in Fireball Formation unless monsters are able to do something to move at least one PC into Fireball Formation with another PC, e.g. grappling attack + high movement speed + desire to drag PCs into formation, which is a much higher bar.

Therefore it's not easy to analyze the tradeoffs between Watcher's aura vs. avoiding Fireball Formation. However, in any situation where the Watcher's 10'-range initiative bonus is helpful, Pass Without Trace is probably even more helpful, because it means you're probably in a CQB fight, and Pass Without Trace not only lets you engage on favorable terms (likely achieving a surprise round by RAW), it also lets you set the terms of engagement beforehand (e.g. engage only after you've poisoned your weapons, activated Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon, sewn caltrops outside the doorway of the building you're peering into).

It's also not easy to analyze the tradeoffs between the Watcher's aura and a Paladin of Devotion's aura, but at least for me the fact that charm effects scare me based on experience and that the Devotion aura is arguably still usable during combat (move close to a Dominated target to suppress charm and therefore suppress domination--check with your DM though on what "cannot be charmed" means) makes me lean in Devotion's favor. But I'm also biased in favor of Devotion because of RP reasons so I may not be objective here.



I don't understand what this refers to. I don't see a reference to PWT in the post just before mine. Edit: oh, looks like you're talking about a specific Mark of Shadow elf build. I wouldn't call that "Watchers Paladins", more like "Mark of Shadow elves."

Edit2: And apparently it's a build which relies on material from both Eberron and Exandria? It's a a Mark of Shadow dunamancer Watcher paladin? I'd love to hear the backstory on that guy. He's from at least two different planets.



(A) "Optimized" appears to mean "has two different home planets and knows top-secret dunamancy magic because reasons". "Optimized" is not the word I would use for that.

(B) Generally I'd be less worried about Fireball (it's just 8d6 damage) than gorgon breath (turns you to stone), mind flayer mind blasts (stuns and opens you up to body snatching), dragon breath (just damage but tends to be a lot of it even for CR 6 Young White Dragons), and sometimes stuff like Fear spam from Babaus or Bodak auras. So, I acknowledge this example as a valid example but don't think it's representative.

(C) Yeah, but this isn't a representative fight.

(D) Paladins don't have the spell slots to take proper advantage of Counterspell: it's usually a bad trade for them. And this isn't a representative fight anyway. (What is this, a 9th or 10th level party fighting a bunch of CR 4 Flameskulls? And the paladin is going to blow one of his only two 3rd level slots on Counterspelling a Fireball? Better just not to be in Fireball formation in the first place, so you can save that slot for e.g. Aura of Vitality to patch up the damage from multiple Fireballs afterwards.)



(E) You might be right, but if so I think that's a mistake. You don't have to be within 10' of each other to be in mutual support range, if you plan ahead. IME even scouting buddies are better off if they stay closer to 20' to 30' apart instead of 5' to 10' apart.

(F) I'll have to think about that one. I've definitely noticed that Alert is a great feat; but only about half of that is due to the +5 on initiative, and in the case of Watchers, the opportunity cost is high (you're giving up an anti-charm aura that can prevent TPKs).

There are pros and cons of fireball formation. More than 30 feet apart a simple wall spell can mean half or more of the party can’t help out at all for 1-3 rounds. Which would be more devastating than eating a first round fireball.

[Sorinth]

It's probably worth noting that being in Fireball formation happens even if PCs are far apart since Fireball specifically has such a large AoE. And in a large number of combats restrictions to LoS makes it so that the party can't spread out much even if they wanted too.

The other thing to note is that being in close formation also means you get the +5 to saves. Since AoE are pretty much all save based it can often be better to be in close formation since large AoE effects can still hit the spread out party. Also there's things like Evasion, thanks to the bonus to saves they are pretty much guaranteed to not take damage from Fireball.

[MaxWilson]

There are pros and cons of fireball formation. More than 30 feet apart a simple wall spell can mean half or more of the party can’t help out at all for 1-3 rounds. Which would be more devastating than eating a first round fireball.

Monsters that can cast wall spells are, however, not nearly as common as monsters that can kill or disable you with AoEs. And anyway, a wall spell can separate the party even if you're only 5' apart from each other.


It's probably worth noting that being in Fireball formation happens even if PCs are far apart since Fireball specifically has such a large AoE. And in a large number of combats restrictions to LoS makes it so that the party can't spread out much even if they wanted too.

Huh. "Can't spread out much even if they wanted to"? Here's the layout for an upcoming fight in my current game. It's a fairly typical dungeon crawl in a Jotun (giant) tomb. Surely this type of layout can't be that unusual?

https://i.postimg.cc/cCnF7Gr7/Scene4.png (https://postimg.cc/0K9Gx3Gr)
In this picture, each grid square is 10' across so Fireball would cover a circle 4 squares in diameter. That's significant, about half the big room's width and over a third of its area, but not so big that some PCs can't be outside of it, especially considering the availability of total cover. (Fireball "spreads around corners" but that's not the same as completely ignoring total cover; and most spells don't even spread around corners at all.) Even just spreading out to different corners will let PCs support each other with ranged weapons/magic without being anywhere near Fireball Formation--that that works even in smaller rooms than the one the Halberd Metalwolf is currently in.

[Sorinth]

Monsters that can cast wall spells are, however, not nearly as common as monsters that can kill or disable you with AoEs. And anyway, a wall spell can separate the party even if you're only 5' apart from each other.



Huh. "Can't spread out much even if they wanted to"? Here's the layout for an upcoming fight in my current game. It's a fairly typical dungeon crawl in a Jotun (giant) tomb. Surely this type of layout can't be that unusual?

https://i.postimg.cc/cCnF7Gr7/Scene4.png (https://postimg.cc/0K9Gx3Gr)

In this picture, each grid square is 10' across so Fireball would cover a circle 4 squares in diameter. That's significant, but not to big that some PCs can't be outside of it, especially considering the availability of total cover. (Fireball "spreads around corners" but that's not the same as completely ignoring total cover; and most spells don't even spread around corners at all.)

If the things throwing Fireballs are those Eternal Fire thingies, then as soon as the door opens the upper left one can hit the whole party except maybe Hawk. If the monsters throwing fireballs are the teal things, then initially they can't hit the whole party, but once players like Hawk get into LoS then most if not the whole party is in fireball range.

I'd also point out Hawk/Bohbean is very much questionable to get an action the opening round unless they have something like a BA Dash if the enemies are the teal things. Should be able to get LoS on the upper Eternal Fire. Also if the doors open outwards from this chamber it can really put a damper on the parties LoS since those doors are huge.

And yes facing Giants, Dragons and other huge creatures, yeah there will be more space then fighting in say a Kobold lair.

EDIT: And if you open the door, lose initiative and the giant goes to the door then they can easily fireball everyone. One of the benefits of the initiative boost is that you can quickly adjust the formation since more players will get to go first and position themselves properly. It's only really Surprise that it can be dangerous, which is too often a situation (If it was Assassin would be considered much better) and on top of that the +5 to saves mitigates even that dangerous situation.

[LudicSavant]

(B) Generally I'd be less worried about Fireball (it's just 8d6 damage) than gorgon breath (turns you to stone), mind flayer mind blasts (stuns and opens you up to body snatching), dragon breath (just damage but tends to be a lot of it even for CR 6 Young White Dragons), and sometimes stuff like Fear spam from Babaus or Bodak auras. So, I acknowledge this example as a valid example but don't think it's representative.

All of those sound like good matchups for the Watchers Paladin to me. It's not like Devotion or Ancients auras would apply better to them.


I don't understand what this refers to. I don't see a reference to PWT in the post just before mine. Edit: oh, looks like you're talking about a specific Mark of Shadow elf build. I wouldn't call that "Watchers Paladins", more like "Mark of Shadow elves."

Edit2: And apparently it's a build which relies on material from both Eberron and Exandria? It's a a Mark of Shadow dunamancer Watcher paladin? I'd love to hear the backstory on that guy. He's from at least two different planets.

(A) "Optimized" appears to mean "has two different home planets and knows top-secret dunamancy magic because reasons". "Optimized" is not the word I would use for that.

The dismissive tone here is uncalled for.

First thing, it is not uncommon for people to use mechanics from a setting book outside of said setting -- Arcana Clerics, Bladesingers, and Booming Blade are frequently used outside of Forgotten Realms, Artificers and Warforged are frequently used outside of Eberron, Echo Knights and Chronurgists are often played outside of Exandria, Spirits Bards and Undead Warlocks are played outside of Ravenloft, etc.

Second thing, you obviously don't have to be a Mark of Shadows elf (heck, I can think of at least 3 other good ways to get it on their spell list without multiclassing, one of which uses no setting book material), nor do you need Gift of Alacrity. The Watchers Paladin does not "rely" on those things in order to be good. The build I posted is but one example of a good way to build a Watchers Paladin.


And the paladin is going to blow one of his only two 3rd level slots on Counterspelling a Fireball? Better just not to be in Fireball formation in the first place, so you can save that slot for e.g. Aura of Vitality to patch up the damage from multiple Fireballs afterwards.)
I thought when we were talking about "Fireball formation," we were not really talking about only Fireball.



@Max, I'm still curious about your answer to this question:




I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

What do you feel the mind flayers and githyanki would be doing to turn the tables, and avoid the fates of the mindflayers and gith in verbatim's game?



One of my players ran a Watchers paladin in a 1-20 campaign and shut down every encounter with mindflayers and/or gith, which is admittedly the ideal opponents for the subclass.

[stoutstien]

I do like the comparison to the devotion paladin. It is probably one of the most underrated player options since release. sure the sacred weapon should probably have been a bonus action but they've learned since then.

They both aren't necessarily that flashy but they can regularly take double deadly encounters and cut them in half.

[MaxWilson]

@Max, I'm still curious about your answer to this question:

Nothing special, just the usual. The point is that the players in this scenario are relying on fluff, apparently not realizing that the mechanics don't actually support the Watcher reputation. The players will clump up in Fireball Formation to get the initiative benefits, and there's a pretty decent probability that doing so kills them (via Mind Blast and Intellect Devouring most likely--remember that Paladin auras go away if the Paladin is incapacitated). It increases their chance of TPKing instead of decreasing it. Cue my laughter.

Overconfidence is deadly, IME.


I do like the comparison to the devotion paladin. It is probably one of the most underrated player options since release. sure the sacred weapon should probably have been a bonus action but they've learned since then.

They both aren't necessarily that flashy but they can regularly take double deadly encounters and cut them in half.

Agreed, but even so, Sacred Weapon + bonus action Wrathful Smite + move into a position to threaten opportunity attacks is a reasonably impactful turn 1. The main thing stopping Sacred Weapon from being better isn't the action economy, it's how feat-starved paladins are so it's hard for them to get GWM and PAM with Cha 20, let alone Extra Attack 2, so it's difficult to make Sacred Weapon really pay off.

[LudicSavant]

Nothing special, just the usual. The point is that the players in this scenario are relying on fluff, apparently not realizing that the mechanics don't actually support the Watcher reputation. The players will clump up in Fireball Formation to get the initiative benefits, and there's a pretty decent probability that doing so kills them (via Mind Blast and Intellect Devouring most likely--remember that Paladin auras go away if the Paladin is incapacitated). It increases their chance of TPKing instead of decreasing it. Cue my laughter.

Overconfidence is deadly, IME.

The people who are actually playing 1-20 campaigns with Watchers (like Verbatim) are reporting that they are shutting down mindflayers hard. This is of course anecdotal evidence, but my own testing reinforces this conclusion.

So I am curious why you are reaching such a divergent result. How are you determining this "pretty decent probability?" Can you give me a specific scenario where they are "increasing their chance of TPKing instead of decreasing it" by doing "nothing special"?

[verbatim]

It's my general experience that Mind Flayers are often encountered in tight corridors where most of the party is at risk of getting hit by the same cone, at which point there is little reason to avoid Fireball formation even on a normal Paladin, let alone one that gives bonus to initiative and CD advantage vs mental saves (presumably before rolling initiative if we are describing adopting fireball formation prior to rolling initiative as overconfident?)


I should probably stipulate that the Watchers Paladin joined the party at level 20 after the cleric got eaten by a Nightwalker, so my experience is really only at level 20.

[MaxWilson]

If the party is overconfident going into the fight in fireball formation I assume that means the Paladin has used their CD to give everyone advantage on mental saves, which stacks quite nicely with the normal aura.

A party that loses to a mindflayer squad with bonus to initiative and advantage as well as +5 to all saves probably would not have won had they traded all of that in exchange for being spread so far out that they weren't all inside the Mind Blast cone.

The CD only lasts one minute, so it pretty much has to be used in combat or from stealth, but yes, at some point the Paladin will probably do that.

And the point I'm making is that overconfidence kills. Players IME often feel like resistance or advantage against something is immunity, and it makes them reckless. I can easily see an 8th party with a Watcher throwing up a Watcher Channel Divinity for advantage on mental saves and then attacking a room full of 2 mind flayers and three Orogs (actually Intellect Devourers), in Fireball Formation, and then getting their brains eaten, either in that room or in a different, similar room nearby.

There are a lot of other things they could do instead, such as turning invisible and trying to sneak quietly through the room, or barricading the door and leaving very quickly, but I would laugh so hard if they tried a head-on attack or three just because they had a Watcher in the party.


The people who are actually playing 1-20 campaigns with Watchers (like Verbatim) are reporting that they are shutting down mindflayers hard. This is of course anecdotal evidence, but my own testing reinforces this conclusion.

So I am curious why you are reaching such a divergent result. How are you determining this "pretty decent probability?" Can you give me a specific scenario where they are "increasing their chance of TPKing instead of decreasing it" by doing "nothing special"?

See above. 8th level party, encounter space (mind flayer space dock?) with several encounters along the lines of "N mind flayers, M humanoids who might be Intellect Devourers," other encounters maybe including slave bandits robbing other slaves and/or imploring the PCs, abominations or oozes (black puddings, Gauths, Nothics) that the mind flayers are creating or experimenting on, maybe some neogi ambassadors with their umber hulks plus another mind flayer or two, etc. This is the kind of scenario that I expect to lead to laughter.

Or if you want a simpler Combat As Sport scenario, just put 4 mind flayers and three Orog (Intellect Devourers) in the same room and make it a mandatory Combat As Sport encounter.


It's my general experience that Mind Flayers are often encountered in tight corridors where most of the party is at risk of getting hit by the same cone, at which point there is little reason to avoid Fireball formation even on a normal Paladin, let alone one that gives bonus to initiative and CD advantage vs mental saves (presumably before rolling initiative if we are describing adopting fireball formation prior to rolling initiative as overconfident?)

I should probably stipulate that the Watchers Paladin joined the party at level 20 after the cleric got eaten by a Nightwalker, so my experience is really only at level 20.

Oh. Having a 30' aura instead of a 10' aura does explain a lot--I can see how that makes the initiative bonus a lot more relevant more often.

I don't usually put mind flayers in tight corridors, I usually put them in rooms doing stuff--if you encounter a mind flayer in tight corridors that's bad because it might be hunting you specifically--but even in tight corridors, you've got plenty of opportunity for total cover and using the corners as corridors turn. Think X-COM: UFO Defense (if you've played it) to imagine what I mean--you don't need to stack your whole team in the same corridor segment for them to support each other. E.g. one guy can be 60' in front of the others and still be supported by the team because if he sees a bad guy he immediately retreats, Dashing back towards the others while they prepared to demolish the incoming (probably Dashing) enemies.

[stoutstien]

There's no reason for the party to stay close together after the CD has been applied so poor use of features really cant be factor in trying to determine the strength of said feature.

**GWM isn't really an good feat for most paladins and for the few that it does work with it's barely better than some other options if everything works in the player's favor. PaM is better but still a hard sell for me. Sacred weapon as a bonus action just makes for a better general option for the class rather than a great option for a poorer progression.

[MaxWilson]

(A) There's no reason for the party to stay close together after the CD has been applied so poor use of features really cant be factor in trying to determine the strength of said feature.

**(B) GWM isn't really an good feat for most paladins and for the few that it does work with it's barely better than some other options if everything works in the player's favor. PaM is better but still a hard sell for me. Sacred weapon as a bonus action just makes for a better general option for the class rather than a great option for a poorer progression.

(A) Isn't the hypothetical party still trying to stay together so they can get the initiative bonus on the first round of combat? Or is the hypothetical Watcher paladin using the CD after rolling initiative? If so then I agree they can split up after that, but still, they start the combat in Fireball Formation (unless the Watcher has a 30' aura due to being 18th level).

(B) I agree, and that's a significant limitation on Sacred Weapon's utility. That, not the action economy, is why it's so niche. It's not a bad feature, and it can help you damage weapon-immune or -resistant monsters, and it can help you land Wrathful Smite spells and similar, but Turn Undead/Fiends is actually far more impactful IME, one of the best things about Oath of Devotion. They also have the best oath from a RP perspective.

[LudicSavant]

Or if you want a simpler Combat As Sport scenario, just put 4 mind flayers and three Orog (Intellect Devourers) in the same room and make it a mandatory Combat As Sport encounter.

Just to note, this is a CR21 encounter against a level 8 party. "Deadly" is just CR 12, so this is Deadly+++++++++ (Precisely nine plusses! :smallsmile:)

[MaxWilson]

Just to note, this is a CR21 encounter against a level 8 party. "Deadly" is just CR 12, so this is Deadly+++++++++ (Precisely nine plusses! :smallsmile:)

They're getting off easy. That encounter is pretty much what happened in one of my first three sessions playing 5E, only in that case I was playing an 8th level Lore Bardlock (6/2) and we were fighting four Mind Flayers plus a Balor instead of Orogs.

My Int saves were terrible, but I still wound up being one of the few PCs who got to do anything (I think I conjured a bunch of animals), because I wasn't standing in Fireball Formation with the rest of the PCs. Think how much easier it would have been if everybody had been properly dispersed instead of grouped together!

[stoutstien]

(A) Isn't the hypothetical party still trying to stay together so they can get the initiative bonus on the first round of combat? Or is the hypothetical Watcher paladin using the CD after rolling initiative? If so then I agree they can split up after that, but still, they start the combat in Fireball Formation (unless the Watcher has a 30' aura due to being 18th level).

(B) I agree, and that's a significant limitation on Sacred Weapon's utility. That, not the action economy, is why it's so niche. It's not a bad feature, and it can help you damage weapon-immune or -resistant monsters, and it can help you land Wrathful Smite spells and similar, but Turn Undead/Fiends is actually far more impactful IME, one of the best things about Oath of Devotion. They also have the best oath from a RP perspective.

I would consider the hypothetical party with a watcher to be somewhat intelligent in how and when they use their tools. What are the odds of them getting surprise and, like you said, is direct confrontation even a good idea to begin with? It's hard to judge it by what ifs.

Clumping into a pile and trying to face roll everything is a bad idea for every party playing on the more tactical and deadly side of the field but having a significant boost in your party's initiative every time that you happen to be near somebody else isn't something that is going to go overlooked.

[LudicSavant]

They're getting off easy.

I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying it's kind of relevant to note because before it seemed like you were saying that the players were going to get stomped by 'nothing special, just the usual.'

[MaxWilson]

I would consider the hypothetical party with a watcher to be somewhat intelligent in how and when they use their tools. What are the odds of them getting surprise and, like you said, is direct confrontation even a good idea to begin with? It's hard to judge it by what ifs.

Clumping into a pile and trying to face roll everything is a bad idea for every party playing on the more tactical and deadly side of the field but having a significant boost in your party's initiative every time that you happen to be near somebody else isn't something that is going to go overlooked.

Okay, I have to clarify then: when I say


I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten.

My expectation is that the intelligent parties don't have this expectation. They know mind flayers must be taken seriously, even if they once read on the Internet that "One of my players ran a Watchers paladin in a 1-20 campaign and shut down every encounter with mindflayers and/or gith, which is admittedly the ideal opponents for the subclass." Intelligent players don't expect to faceroll mind flayers by virtue of an initiative bonus and occasional advantage on mental saves. [@Verbatim, I'm not saying you aren't intelligent or that you expect Watchers to faceroll mind flayers, just that someone thoughtless might get the wrong idea from reading that sentence if they didn't think hard enough. -Max]

This is me saying that I would laugh so hard at overconfident Watchers just like I laugh at overconfident Barbarians who think Rage will save them. In both cases, I'm laughing at someone who thinks a minor ability is a game-changer, and leans on it to the point of becoming reckless. And yes, I do expect this to happen with Watcher parties, although if it actually happened I might not actually want to laugh (I tend to feel the player's pain) but I would try to anyway because being the Evil DM is my job: the players have to feel, at some level, like they have an enemy who wants them to fail so that when they win they are "beating" that enemy. (At the same time you have to frankly congratulate them on their successes and be a good sport when they win, so predicting their imminent demise and laughing at their failures is very important because it's your only chance to build that antagonistic relationship.)

So anyway, I can agree with what you say here, stoutsien, but I'm not going to assume it applies to every party I will run a game for. Also, for the intelligent parties, there's still a high opportunity cost, and I would generally say that being immune to charm when you're near the paladin (especially if it lets you get out of an existing charm effect like neogi Enslavement) is more valuable than an initiative boost, because it removes a TPK-level threat.


I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying it's kind of relevant to note because before it seemed like you were saying that the players were going to get stomped by 'nothing special, just the usual.'

Please don't misrepresent my words. The correct context for that remark was you asking about mind flayer behavior, "What do you feel the mind flayers and githyanki would be doing to turn the tables, and avoid the fates of the mindflayers and gith in verbatim's game?" At no time did I say that "a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki" was a typical encounter.

I was saying the players would get stomped by the mind flayers with no special tactics, just doing their usual thing. The usual thing for players, as you seem to acknowledge, would be to run away from those mind flayers instead of fighting them, unless they have an even better plan.

[LudicSavant]

So anyway, I can agree with what you say here, stoutsien, but I'm not going to assume it applies to every party I will run a game for. Also, for the intelligent parties, there's still a high opportunity cost, and I would generally say that being immune to charm when you're near the paladin (especially if it lets you get out of an existing charm effect like neogi Enslavement) is more valuable than an initiative boost, because it removes a TPK-level threat.

I think charm immunity is totally awesome because yes, charms are TPK-level threats, but initiative boosts are also totally awesome because they also mitigate TPK level threats.

In high challenge games where Deadly+++++++++ really is nothing special, there are more than a few times that survival hinges on initiative.

[MaxWilson]

I think charm immunity is totally awesome because yes, charms are TPK-level threats, but initiative boosts are also totally awesome because they also mitigate TPK level threats.

In high challenge games where Deadly+++++++++ really is nothing special, there are more than a few times that survival hinges on initiative.

The difference though is that Initiative mitigates the same class of threats that recon also mitigates, and good recon is easier to get than immunity to charm.

[stoutstien]

I will say that I would love to play at one of Max's games. I miss that type of challenging play when what your character's capable of and decisions you make are equally important.
One of my group regularly handles up to 2 to 3 times deadly encounters all-day but that's their limit and the DM roster near me is thin and is exactly 2 names long once you remove the types who think balanced mean adjusting results to match thier plan.

I will say watch aura + surprise is nasty even with one ally. Getting 2 rounds before they can react past some reactions is a good way to gut some challenges.

[MaxWilson]

I will say that I would love to play at one of Max's games. I miss that type of challenging play when what your character's capable of and decisions you make are equally important.
One of my group regularly handles up to 2 to 3 times deadly encounters all-day but that's their limit and the DM roster near me is thin and is exactly 2 names long once you remove the types who think balanced mean adjusting results to match thier plan.

It's a playstyle preference. As a player I'd rather play one adventure about my worst day of the year where I'm in over my head and probably gonna die, and then be done with D&D for a while, than play the other 364 days of the year when I've got everything under control, every real-life weekend. And as a DM I have similar preferences, so even though I often tend towards sandboxing, I'm always trying to tempt the players into placing themselves in high risk/reward scenarios, or at least scenarios that I can trick them into thinking might be high risk.

I know there are people who feel the opposite, who think a 50% chance of not living through thirty game sessions in a row is unacceptably high.

I guess I'd rather be "dead" than bored. :)

[LudicSavant]

I will say that I would love to play at one of Max's games. I miss that type of challenging play when what your character's capable of and decisions you make are equally important.

I play this kind of style myself and it's a lot of fun. :smallsmile:


I was saying the players would get stomped by the mind flayers with no special tactics, just doing their usual thing.

I know that now, hence "seemed like you were saying" instead of "you were saying."

[stoutstien]

It's a playstyle preference. As a player I'd rather play one adventure about my worst day of the year where I'm in over my head and probably gonna die, than play the other 364 days of the year when I've got everything under control. And as a DM I have similar preferences, so even though I often tend towards sandboxing, I'm always trying to tempt the players into placing themselves in high risk/reward scenarios, or at least scenarios that I can trick them into thinking might be high risk.

I guess I'd rather be "dead" than bored. :)

I feel you. I've had to go the other direction by imposing limiters on myself like avoiding full casters and entire spell School sometimes.

When I go about evaluating a player option I have try to visualize it in the full range of play. It wouldn't do much good in being a baseline for how a player at your table or even my table but a general appraisal is all we really have.
One criteria I use is how well they would do in each publish campaign. They are all easy-very easy by my standards but at least it's a point of reference.

[LudicSavant]

One of my group regularly handles up to 2 to 3 times deadly encounters all-day but that's their limit and the DM roster near me is thin and is exactly 2 names long once you remove the types who think balanced mean adjusting results to match thier plan.

I actually just recently went through a dungeon (in our Saturday campaign) that had 14 encounters in a single day (numerous of which were Deadly) :smallbiggrin:

Though the 14 encounter day is definitely not the norm for said campaign, I still have a good deal of experience with campaigns where 6 is 'about average' and Deadly encounters are common.


When I go about evaluating a player option I have try to visualize it in the full range of play. It wouldn't do much good in being a baseline for how a player at your table or even my table but a general appraisal is all we really have.
One criteria I use is how well they would do in each publish campaign. They are all easy-very easy by my standards but at least it's a point of reference.

Same -- I consider published campaigns very easy by my standards.

When I stress test optimized builds, my standard is something like "6 Deadly encounters in a day with a ruthless old school meat grinder DM."

[stoutstien]

I actually just recently went through a dungeon (in our Saturday campaign) that had 14 encounters in a single day (numerous of which were Deadly) :smallbiggrin:

Though the 14 encounter day is definitely not the norm for said campaign, I still have a good deal of experience with campaigns where 6 is 'about average' and Deadly encounters are common.

My tables average ~9 but double digits isn't that uncommon with at least half of them being deadly. I personally don't think the rating system is that accurate to begin with so it doesn't say much. It's heavy yuan ti so dealing with suggestion makes a big difference and dealing with a species who thinks only thinking 200 years ahead is for The reckless.

[MaxWilson]

I feel you. I've had to go the other direction by imposing limiters on myself like avoiding full casters and entire spell School sometimes.

Yeah, I've got a soft spot for Fighters for a similar reason. Randomly-generated characters, or pregens created by other people, are challenging too. And starting the adventure in medias res, like a Necromancer who has just had to order all of his skeletons to destroy each other in order to avoid detection and arrest/execution by Elven Imperial Navy Marines.




I know that now, hence "seemed like you were saying" instead of "you were saying."

Just to be clear: when you wrote


I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying it's kind of relevant to note because before it seemed like you were saying that the players were going to get stomped by 'nothing special, just the usual.'

are you saying "the difficulty is relevant because [I misinterpreted your intent]"? Because that makes no sense. Your original statement makes sense only if one assumes that you actually believed the words you now disavow.

If you already knew you were misinterpreting "nothing special, just the usual", then what was "kind of relevant" about noting the encounter difficulty rating? You would have known instead that it was totally irrelevant.

Methinks you have lost track of your own words.

But I'll let it drop now.

[nathanv]

What recon is happening against a room full of critters with 300' detect sentience, by an 8th level party? Sacrificial NPCs? Steel defenders? Is the party already familiar with the layout, so they know where to cast clairvoyance, and then just rest every time they need to scry a new room? Beyond that, it seems to me that good recon is not an *alternative* to good class abilities, it is something to be used *in addition* to good class abilities. After all, it's not like a devotion paladin has some kind of leg up on recon.

I'm not sure how you're using corridors as total cover when you lose initiative; more, I'm not sure how a player might be able to use corridors as total cover, but not be able to get out of "fireball formation". It's also not clear how well players are actually supporting each other in a long chain with 60' links. It seems to me that it's likely to lead to the death of at least one player, which is probably the greatest resource expenditure there is at lvl 8. It sounds like the plan is, "Bob, you open the door and die, and then the mind flayers are so dumb that they'll just chase us into our room full of glyphs." Well, okay, if the mindflayers do that, and you spent yesterday preparing the field, then yes, maybe that is your best bet of surviving the encounter. Hope it's the last room though, because Bob wasn't just dead weight. You can't afford to kill a lvl 8 PC every room, that's for sure.

What you're describing is basically ultra-deadly, and your reported experience was that you were one of the few that got to act-- which suggests it didn't go too well for your party. That's what I would expect. It's not going to go too well for anyone.

It seems to me that the reason most of the PCs didn't get to act was either because they lost initiative or because they were surprised. No, an initiative bonus isn't going to just make you survive ultra-deadly encounters like this. It's not a win button. It's an advantage, and in your example, it seems to me to be an *especially* meaningful advantage. It's how you get total cover. It's how you reduce the impact of surprise. It's how you're able to lead with some kind of control that maybe, if you're lucky, buys a turn of action for your other party members.

[LudicSavant]

Just to be clear: when you wrote


I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying it's kind of relevant to note because before it seemed like you were saying that the players were going to get stomped by 'nothing special, just the usual.'

are you saying "the difficulty is relevant because [I misinterpreted your intent]"? Because that makes no sense.

It makes sense just fine. Mentioning the difficulty helps clarify your intent. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25073931&postcount=37) Ergo "It is relevant to note, because not noting it made it seem (to me, possibly others) like you were saying something else."

When you say "I would LOVE to see a party with a Watcher paladin go up against a bunch of mind flayers or githyanki, expecting to mop the floor with them by virtue of their Watcher abilities. I would laugh so hard when they got their brains eaten," that can be read as "Mind Flayers or Githyanki will mop the floor with Watchers" (because they're not good at the matchup) rather than (because it's an encounter far, far above Deadly). Especially since the thread discussion is about whether or not Watchers are good.

Now that you have clarified your intent to me, I agree: It would indeed be funny if someone thought they were invincible against an unlimited quantity of mind flayers just because of the Channel Divinity.

I think it is important to note (for the sake of clarity to people who are coming into this thread wondering whether or not Watchers Paladins are good or not) that Watchers Paladins have a very good matchup against Mind Flayers, the only reason they would have trouble is if they were heedlessly taking on something that their party has no business taking on.

[Hael]

I very much enjoyed my Watcher paladin when I played him in a few games a few months ago. Very underrated class.

Regarding initiative, one of the wrinkles is that it's actually quite nice having some people in the init aura, and others that are outside (for the same reason gift of alacrity is amazing). Being able to quasi ensure one party member goes ahead of another, is often more important than ensuring that a party member goes before the enemy.

For instance, its frequently the case that you want your blaster caster to go early in the init round. However, its my experience that classes like monks and rogues often like being late, as it opens up the ability to get into the backlines more efficiently and with less risk..

[MaxWilson]

What recon is happening against a room full of critters with 300' detect sentience, by an 8th level party? Sacrificial NPCs? Steel defenders? Is the party already familiar with the layout, so they know where to cast clairvoyance, and then just rest every time they need to scry a new room? Beyond that, it seems to me that good recon is not an *alternative* to good class abilities, it is something to be used *in addition* to good class abilities. After all, it's not like a devotion paladin has some kind of leg up on recon.

I'm not sure how you're using corridors as total cover when you lose initiative; more, I'm not sure how a player might be able to use corridors as total cover, but not be able to get out of "fireball formation". It's also not clear how well players are actually supporting each other in a long chain with 60' links. It seems to me that it's likely to lead to the death of at least one player, which is probably the greatest resource expenditure there is at lvl 8. It sounds like the plan is, "Bob, you open the door and die, and then the mind flayers are so dumb that they'll just chase us into our room full of glyphs." Well, okay, if the mindflayers do that, and you spent yesterday preparing the field, then yes, maybe that is your best bet of surviving the encounter. Hope it's the last room though, because Bob wasn't just dead weight. You can't afford to kill a lvl 8 PC every room, that's for sure.

What you're describing is basically ultra-deadly, and your reported experience was that you were one of the few that got to act-- which suggests it didn't go too well for your party. That's what I would expect. It's not going to go too well for anyone.

It seems to me that the reason most of the PCs didn't get to act was either because they lost initiative or because they were surprised. No, an initiative bonus isn't going to just make you survive ultra-deadly encounters like this. It's not a win button. It's an advantage, and in your example, it seems to me to be an *especially* meaningful advantage. It's how you get total cover. It's how you reduce the impact of surprise. It's how you're able to lead with some kind of control that maybe, if you're lucky, buys a turn of action for your other party members.

Honestly it sounds like you're conflating multiple discussions here, e.g. recon and mind flayers were originally separate discussion threads. But okay, let's talk recon and mind flayers together.

If I were you I'd rather send a Tiny Servant to open the door instead of Bob, or have Bob open the door with Mage Hand from a cross-corridor if Tiny Servant isn't available. I've talked elsewhere, I think in this thread, about the value of a scouting buddy, and if worst comes to worst, Plan D can be for the scouting buddy to grab Bob's stunned body and drag or teleport him back 60' to the party, to give him time to recover. The value of recon is that that's what lets you know to DO these things. If your recon is good enough you may even have spells like Nondetection prepared in advance which can prevent that 300' mind-detection from working and allow you to use Invisibility against the mind flayers. That's what this game is all about.

The way you get total cover even when you lose initiative is to already have total cover. Open the doors along the corridor and clear the rooms as you go. Walls and doors are good at creating total cover. You can move when your turn comes up but until then you have cover.

I probably didn't answer all of your questions, but I'm short on time, sorry. Feel free to politely repeat any important unanswered questions and I'll try to get to them later.

[CheddarChampion]

I think the best way to change someone's mind about if something is good or not is to show them what you mean.
Especially when the alternative is getting wrapped up the in the details of how deadly one encounter is and exactly how that encounter would or should be approached.

I suggest, LudicSavant, MaxWilson, and stoutstien, that you play a game with a Watcher in the party and note when the Watcher's abilities help and when they don't.
Heck, I'm willing to run a test game for you all. Do you use Roll20? Maybe we get 1 or 2 more players and see how well you can take down a Mind Flayer colony at level 9 or a Gith monastery at level 15?

[MaxWilson]

I think the best way to change someone's mind about if something is good or not is to show them what you mean.
Especially when the alternative is getting wrapped up the in the details of how deadly one encounter is and exactly how that encounter would or should be approached.

I suggest, LudicSavant, MaxWilson, and stoutstien, that you play a game with a Watcher in the party and note when the Watcher's abilities help and when they don't.
Heck, I'm willing to run a test game for you all. Do you use Roll20? Maybe we get 1 or 2 more players and see how well you can take down a Mind Flayer colony at level 9 or a Gith monastery at level 15?

I would love to do that. I've never used Roll20 before. Only, I hope no one will mind if I pick a deliberately-challenging PC (right now I feel like playing a Mobile GWM Ancestor Barb 5/Scout 4 named Tarzash, even though I know perfectly well he's not suited to this mission) with the goal of

(1) making the game hard enough that I expect to die, and then

(2) managing not to die.

I'd rather fail at #2 than #1.

[LudicSavant]

I think the best way to change someone's mind about if something is good or not is to show them what you mean.
Especially when the alternative is getting wrapped up the in the details of how deadly one encounter is and exactly how that encounter would or should be approached.

I suggest, LudicSavant, MaxWilson, and stoutstien, that you play a game with a Watcher in the party and note when the Watcher's abilities help and when they don't.

Hey, that's pretty close to what I suggested people do in post #8 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25072080&postcount=8) :smallbiggrin:


To try and make it more intuitive just how valuable a party-wide +5 to initiative is, I suggest the following experiment. In your games, count how often a party member loses initiative to Team Monster by 5 or less. Now, every time that happens, mentally insert "If a Watcher was here, they would have just gotten an entire extra turn." Count how many turns would have been generated, and think about how impactful each of those turns would be.


Heck, I'm willing to run a test game for you all. Do you use Roll20? Maybe we get 1 or 2 more players and see how well you can take down a Mind Flayer colony at level 9 or a Gith monastery at level 15?

I use Roll20 :smallsmile:

[CheddarChampion]

Alright! I'll DM you both and we'll share contact info?

[Dork_Forge]

I think the best way to change someone's mind about if something is good or not is to show them what you mean.
Especially when the alternative is getting wrapped up the in the details of how deadly one encounter is and exactly how that encounter would or should be approached.

I suggest, LudicSavant, MaxWilson, and stoutstien, that you play a game with a Watcher in the party and note when the Watcher's abilities help and when they don't.
Heck, I'm willing to run a test game for you all. Do you use Roll20? Maybe we get 1 or 2 more players and see how well you can take down a Mind Flayer colony at level 9 or a Gith monastery at level 15?

I use R20 and would be interested in rounding out a party if there's space

[nathanv]

If your recon is good enough you may even have spells like Nondetection prepared in advance which can prevent that 300' mind-detection from working and allow you to use Invisibility against the mind flayers.

I shouldn't get too wrapped up in details, like CC says.

ID's have detect sentience 300', non-magical, protected against only by mind blank. So they are *very* hard to scout without revealing your hand. Non-detection doesn't work, but it's still good since you want to keep the mind-flayers from knowing every single thing you're saying at the table via detect thoughts :)

[MaxWilson]

I shouldn't get too wrapped up in details, like CC says.

ID's have detect sentience 300', non-magical, protected against only by mind blank. So they are *very* hard to scout without revealing your hand. Non-detection doesn't work, but it's still good since you want to keep the mind-flayers from knowing every single thing you're saying at the table via detect thoughts :)

Oh yes, sorry, I was getting it mixed up with Elder Brains. It's their 5-mile-radius detection ability which is explicitly blocked by Nondetection. And that is why it's significant that Githyanki can cast Nondetection 3/day, so they can kill illithids. DM call whether to use RAW Intellect Devourers as a close-range countermeasure, or to modify Intellect Devourers' Detect Sentience to be more like Elder Brains' Creature Sense.

[Sparky McDibben]

I suggest, LudicSavant, MaxWilson, and stoutstien, that you play a game with a Watcher in the party and note when the Watcher's abilities help and when they don't.
Heck, I'm willing to run a test game for you all. Do you use Roll20? Maybe we get 1 or 2 more players and see how well you can take down a Mind Flayer colony at level 9 or a Gith monastery at level 15?

My work here is done. Thanks to all!

[MaxWilson]

My work here is done. Thanks to all!

Sorry guys, looks like this is falling through due to out-of-character conflicts between myself and LudicSavant. Too much drama unfortunately.

[CheddarChampion]

I think Max is the one that escalated this to drama. His remark about "too much drama" misrepresents Ludic's involvement.

I'm still going to try running a game about fighting Mind Flayers & Gith, Ludic will probably play as the Watcher Paladin in it.

[MaxWilson]

I'm still going to try running a game about fighting Mind Flayers & Gith, Ludic will probably play as the Watcher Paladin in it.

I'm surprised and sorry to be excluded. Previously you just told me you were canceling it due to out-of-character conflicts (about which the less said the better--and I haven't). That's your decision though.

[CheddarChampion]

Hey I'm still willing to run a different game for you that doesn't involve Ludic. Early Fall, maybe, if you'd be interested.

I'll work out the details later on (like 3 or 4 weeks later given my schedule) - maybe there's a subclass you like that others don't and you could show them it's actually good.

Edit:
I'm sorry about putting it like "cancelling the game" initially. I meant it at the time I said it but changed my mind when I realized how many of the details I had already worked out and how I was looking forward to running it.

I figure Ludic likes the Watcher oath so he's better suited to showing me it's actually good - if he can! I'm throwing down the gauntlet!

Edit 2:
My first edit started before Max's response but I hit save changes after he replied.

[MaxWilson]

Hey I'm still willing to run a different game for you that doesn't involve Ludic. Early Fall, maybe, if you'd be interested.

I'll work out the details later on (like 3 or 4 weeks later given my schedule) - maybe there's a subclass you like that others don't and you could show them it's actually good.

No, that's okay. Accepting the offer to play in a one shot Mind Flayer citadel raid was a spur of the moment impulse on my part--it sounded like a fun way to spend a weeknight next week. I don't want to make a long-term commitment for next fall, nor do I care about "showing" anybody anything via play**. (I'm a Timmy, in D&D to experience something, not a Spike or Johnny, here to send a message to other people.) By next fall I won't be in the mood any more. Thanks all the same.

** When playing. I care about providing good advice while posting on forums, but that's not the same thing as a play agenda.

[CheddarChampion]

Okay dude, thanks for being straightforward with me. Peace.

[Dork_Forge]

I think Max is the one that escalated this to drama. His remark about "too much drama" misrepresents Ludic's involvement.


From personal experience I wouldn't think it so one sided but hey ho.

Hope your test goes well

[Sparky McDibben]

Sorry guys, looks like this is falling through due to out-of-character conflicts between myself and LudicSavant. Too much drama unfortunately.

My dear fellow, drama is what we DO. And nothing about this thread has been useless. Now I have a better appreciation for the Watchers paladin.

And in my next dungeon, I have two quibbling mages arguing about minutiae that escalates into ridiculousness. Ooh! Maybe I could do it in the form of an epistolary? Have the PCs find letters between these two old guys? Might make it more Shakespearean, though:

"Thy argument hath all the substance of an air elemental, Magister Savantus!"

"Thou hast disproven thine own point, Magister Will's Son, for air elementals are comprised of Gawp's universal reagent!"

"Ha! Thou wouldst quote Iggwilv's findings to me? Knowest thou I learnt the conjuring arts at her feet?!"

And so on. Thanks, y'all!!

[LudicSavant]

My dear fellow, drama is what we DO. And nothing about this thread has been useless. Now I have a better appreciation for the Watchers paladin. Awesome! I'm glad we were helpful. :smallbiggrin:

Looking forward to playing in Cheddar's game, it sounds like fun. :smallsmile:


And in my next dungeon, I have two quibbling mages arguing about minutiae that escalates into ridiculousness. Ooh! Maybe I could do it in the form of an epistolary? Have the PCs find letters between these two old guys? Might make it more Shakespearean, though:

"Thy argument hath all the substance of an air elemental, Magister Savantus!"

"Thou hast disproven thine own point, Magister Will's Son, for air elementals are comprised of Gawp's universal reagent!"

"Ha! Thou wouldst quote Iggwilv's findings to me? Knowest thou I learnt the conjuring arts at feet?!"

And so on. Thanks, y'all!!

Ha!