Customizing a Summon Monster List

[Adamantrue]

Premise: 13th level Bard, backstory involves being particularly clever. Has a habit of making contracts with Devils, but having found ways to insert her own "fine print" or clever solutions that allow her to come out ahead. She's managed to keep her soul, and ends up with fiendish creatures that are bound to her service.

Problem: I have to create a custom Summon Monster list. In this particular case, She gets to add 1 creature to each Summon Monster List every time she gains a new Spell Level (5 for Summon Monster 1, 4 for Summon Monster 2, etc).

In addition, if any of these creatures die, that "slot" remains vacant. The "rule" is that she can replace an open slot when she gains a new character level, although there will be RP requirements.

So I'm helping the player populate the "roster". The general rule I'm going with is a maximum CR equal to the Summon Monster level. For example, Summon Monster 3 can't have anything above CR 3, and I'm trying to optimize the slots to compensate.

I'm starting to draw a blank to fill the bottom of the list, which I imagine is going to be mostly for utility. She intends to only run with Summon Monster 3 & 5 (if that matters).

The list so far:

Summon Monster 5 (1)
Fiendish Dragonkin Warrior 1 (CR 5)

Summon Monster 4 (2)
Fiendish Kobold Adept 7 (CR 4)
Fiendish Grimlock Warrior 4 (CR 4), "Blind Fury"

Summon Monster 3 (3)
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Warrior 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Alpha Male"
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Warrior 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Alpha Female"
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Expert 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Tracker"

Summon Monster 2 (4)
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog (CR 2), "Cerberus"
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog (CR 2), "Cerberus"
Fiendish Horrid Magebred Light Warhorse (CR 2), "Blightmare"
Insert Creature Here

Summon Monster 1 (5)
Insert Creature Here
Insert Creature Here
Insert Creature Here
Insert Creature Here
Insert Creature Here

So, I got 6 "slots" open. Any suggestions?

[Particle_Man]

Well the very minor monsters are either there to temporarily annoy a foe, to test traps, or maybe to quickly scout. So choices of “something that flies”, “something that burrows”, “something that climbs”, “something that swims”, could work. So fiendish versions of animals with those movement speeds.

By the way, do they have to be fiendish or is axiomatic an option? Devils are lawful too!

Also I think there is a construct (clockwork mender) for summon monster II that might be interesting since they have resistances so could be a hardier scout for quick scouting. Similarly maybe a monodrone or formian worker for summon monster I.

[Adamantrue]

Trapspringers would be problematic. If it dies, it leaves an empty slot. Admittedly, its pretty far down the list, but you don't want to start having to use less expendable guys.

I torn between being disappointed and relieved that there aren't many other concerns at this point beyond scouting.

[Fizban]

In addition, if any of these creatures die, that "slot" remains vacant. The "rule" is that she can replace an open slot when she gains a new character level, although there will be RP requirements.
This is a massive nerf- the DMG sidebar for "Summoning Individual Monsters" makes note of the 24 hour limit, but never recommends that summoned creatures die or become unavailable permanently. That's a calling spell, except standard calling spells don't lock you to X known creatures. The effects of Summon Monster are not something you're supposed to worry about keeping alive, and as a Bard with lower level spells than "normal," your summons will be even more likely to die. This change leaves the spell useful only for non-combat and insignificant-combat situations.


So I'm helping the player populate the "roster". The general rule I'm going with is a maximum CR equal to the Summon Monster level. For example, Summon Monster 3 can't have anything above CR 3, and I'm trying to optimize the slots to compensate.
This on the other hand, can go either way. The monsters on the lists are not there by CR alone, and choosing appropriate alternates requires looking at all the available data- hit points, attack bonuses, damage, movement modes, special abilities, the lot. And the 3.5 SM/SNA lists are kinda shoddy to begin with.

For example, "Brown Bears" (ridiculous murder beasts that break Animal Companion nearly all by themselves) are listed CR 4. They're on SNA 4, but SM 5. Dire Bears with much higher attack and hp but only a bit more damage, are CR 7, but they're on SNA 6, and SM 8.


I'm starting to draw a blank to fill the bottom of the list, which I imagine is going to be mostly for utility. She intends to only run with Summon Monster 3 & 5 (if that matters).
If you're only taking 3 and 5, you have no 4th, 2nd, or 1st lists. The personalized list variants I assume your DM is referencing specify in the beginning that you start picking monsters when you gain access to the given spell. So order matters, and if you never take 1, 2, or 4, you never gain any lists for them, if that's how it's being run. And if your "summons" must be tracked and managed as permanent assets that die off or are lost and need to be replaced out of the same limited pool, I don't see why they would be giving you freebies for spells you don't know.


Summon Monster 5 (1)
Fiendish Dragonkin Warrior 1 (CR 5)
Compares fine to Fiendish Dire Ape without the warrior level, though the CR calculation is off. A Fiendish Dragonkin is 3+1= 4. A Fiendish Dragonkin Associated Class 1 is 3+1+2= 6. You appear to be claiming Warrior as an nonassociated class to round down 1/2 a point of CR out of existence while still claiming the full 8 HD benefit of Fiendish. Estimating CR is the DM's perogative, not the player, and the DM is explicitly instructed to err on the side of caution, not to give out free hit dice.

Which also brings into question what ability score generation you're going to be assuming with all these classed NPCs.

Summon Monster 4 (2)
Fiendish Kobold Adept 7 (CR 4)
Hahahahahahaha. No.

CR alone is already an easily abused metric for player-chosen summon spells with just standard book CRs, let alone formula-altered CRs. Summoning classed humanoids? Even if a Kobold Adept 7 is truly comparable to SM 4 monsters, it's still one of the worst possible precedents to set. Who needs Leadership when you can just use one of your many spells known to write your own ever-growing stable of NPC spellcasters? It also has a formula (snerk) CR of 5-7 unless you're using some Pathfinder change: NPC normally class gives level -1, and the DMG gives no reduction in CR for Kobold NPCs. Even taking the MM's dubious stance that kobold with NPC class is worth -3, that's still 7-3+1 (for Fiendish)= 5. Unless you can directly quote where is says that the effects and CR adjustments of templates that ask for HD only ever count racial hit dice, but in that case your Dragonkin doesn't work either.

The spell power of Either Elite or Non-Elite Array Adept 7 is going to be 3/4/3, so three 2nd level spells. Don't think I haven't noticed that cl 7 either, exactly enough for Resist Energy 20 and Scorching Ray 8d6, in addition to options of See Invisibility and Invisibility and Web.

The only possible attempt at justification I could see for this is SNA 4's Unicorn. Which was originally SM 6's Celestial Unicorn. And has a very specific set of abilities that only barely includes one buff, rather than multiple widely useful buffs and also a staple no-save attack spell that can't even really be matched by 7th level summon spells. Even with a ruling that all effects cast by summons fade when the summon expires, that attack is far beyond SM 4. Three uses of 8d6 damage is beyond most spells period until at least 6th or 7th.

It's also a rather naked bait and switch. CR is a measure of expected combat challenge vs a the standard party. You've stated plainly that you know these will need to be used mostly for "utility," and are clearly leveraging the fact that CR does not account for utility of PC use. This is why there is no published source (WotC anyway) that says you can just let people summon whatever they want of X CR (at least until the Epic summoning seed, which had no other options and is already covered by the explicit need for DM approval of the spell anyway).


Summon Monster 3 (3)
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Warrior 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Alpha Male"
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Warrior 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Alpha Female"
Fiendish Magebred Riding Dog Expert 2 (CR 3), "Cerberus Tracker"
And that's pretty much where I stop paying attention. Magebred lacks a CR adjustment, but that doesn't mean it's supposed to be free. It doubles the cost and makes the availability questionable and possibly linked to setting-specific organizations. The only reason I expect you haven't also added the usual Warbeast is because it does increase CR (while giving approximately the same bonuses), and you don't need it to to generate a(n absurdly low) price because you're not paying for anything.

Any game where this is an acceptable Summon Monster submission is one I'm noping right out of. Unless your DM actually stats their standard monsters like this, it's completely inappropriate (and if they do, it's still inappropriate as far as I'm concerned). If the goal of the thread is optimizing maximum PC use value out of NPC CR calculation gained via loosened rules for Summon Monster, I have nothing more to add.