Greywander
2021-06-03, 12:02 AM
I've mentioned this idea in the context of a big overhaul mod that changes many different features of 5e (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624980-Let-s-make-some-stacking-classes), but it should be feasible to make a simple stacking classes mod and integrate it back into 5e without making any other sweeping changes. Now, classes do form a core part of the mechanics, so there's still a lot that we would/could change, but it wouldn't really be much different from most other homebrew classes.
So what do I mean by "stacking classes"? Well, each class is cut down to just 4 levels, and as you level up you'll need to pick a new class every time you finish your current one. This means a 20th level character will have a total of 5 classes. This also conveniently lines up such that you get a proficiency bump every time you start a new class. One of the big motivations for doing it this way is increased flexibility in character customization. There have been a number of character concepts I've had that really want specific features from this or that class, but not necessarily anything else from that class. Stacking classes makes it easier to mix'n'match features from different classes. It's sort of finding a happy middle ground between a rigid class system and the more open skill-based systems.
As for the implementation, how I'd start is by taking the existing base classes and condensing them down into two stacking classes; a basic class and a master class. Each subclass also gets reworked into a stacking class. "Basic" classes might be the only ones you could take at 1st level, with the "intermediate" former subclasses being available from 5th level and onward, and "master" classes available at 13th or 17th level. But there's still a lot of room to figure this all out. Ideally, each class is balanced against all the others, so while the master classes might have some powerful abilities you wouldn't want a 1st level character to have, they're comparable to what you'd get from any other class in the late game. Also, ASIs/feats would be separated from class advancement, probably purchased separately with XP.
With each class containing only four levels, we can easily set up a basic formula to determine what sorts of features we get and when. From the post linked above, we have:
1st level - Core Feature. A feature central to that class. Gets stronger the more times you gain this feature, encouraging you to take similar classes. Optionally, you could swap out a class's core feature with a different one.
2nd level - Gimmick. A unique trick that differentiates classes with the same core feature. This feature focuses on the mechanical aspect of the class.
3rd level - Ribbon. What the gimmick does for mechanics, this does for roleplay.
4th level - Capstone. Your reward for completing the class.
Having thought about it, though, there's an argument to be made for moving the gimmick up to 1st level, either switching places with the core feature or sharing 1st level with it, so that classes with the same core feature don't feel identical. Still not sure what would work best. If we did just move the gimmick up, then what sort of feature should be given at 2nd level?
Now, before we try to write up the individual classes, there are some issues we need to resolve. One of those is Extra Attack. If Extra Attack is a core feature, then that means fighters would start with two attacks right from 1st level, and would gain up to six attacks if you take all classes that get Extra Attack as a core feature. Instead, here's what I'm thinking: The basic fighter gets Extra Attack as a capstone, allowing them to make an additional attack, up to three max. Then, at a specific level, say, 9th level, everyone gets an automatic Extra Attack, allowing them to make up to two attacks. Fighters, who already have Extra Attack, can then make three total, while everyone else is stuck at two. The master fighter also gets Extra Attack as a capstone, allowing for up to four attacks. Thus, any character can eventually make two attacks (though non-martials won't have as many bonuses from class features), while any character who dips into either fighter class can make three attacks, and anyone who gets both fighter classes can make four attacks.
Another idea I'm playing with is hit points, resources, and rests. Messing with HP will necessarily require tweaks to anything that involves healing (e.g. spells), but I think there's a potential to make things more interesting. As a basic modification, every character, including NPCs, would have a number of hit dice equal to their proficiency bonus, and the equivalent amount of HP. PCs would start with two hit dice, likely one from their race (probably d8 for medium and d6 for small) and one from their class, and every time you advance to a new class you'd gain the hit die of that class. Now, that's a lot less HP than you normally get, which is going to make combat a lot deadlier if we don't also reduce damage. But, here's what I'm thinking: Once all your HP is gone, further damage starts coming out of max HP. You don't fall unconscious until you lose all your max HP. Then, we can make it relatively easy to regain HP, but difficult to restore max HP. One of the main benefits of this is that we can make HP healing relatively cheap, e.g. regen abilities or a healing cantrip, without them completely unbalancing the game.
As for rests, I'm considering a four-tiered rest system: A breather is 1 minute of rest (generally for any ability that is meant to be once per encounter), a break is 1 hour of rest (a short rest), a repose is 8 hours of rest that includes at least 6 hours of sleep and no more than 2 hours of light activity (a long rest; creatures that don't require sleep can do light activity throughout), and a vacation is a week of rest that includes at least 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity each day (e.g. "once per adventure" abilities). Using the HP mod above, you'd probably regain full HP after either a breather or a break, you could spend hit dice during a repose/long rest to regain max HP, and a vacation would fully restore max HP and hit dice. I'm also leaning toward making 6th+ level spell slots restore after a vacation rather than a repose/long rest, to make the use of 6th+ level spells more meaningful (also to curb the power of casters).
For resource pools, there's a couple things I'm considering. One is to have one or more generic resource pools that every character has that can give you extra uses of your abilities. You kind of already see this with several feats and a few class features that let you use it once for free, then require you to expend a resource (spell slot, psy die, ki, etc.) to use it again. If we're needing to write new abilities for classes, we could also introduce new resource systems. One idea I had was for a resource that you regain at the start of every turn, but then again that might be somewhat redundant with the action economy. The addition of vacations also opens up the possibility of having cool "last stand" type abilities, giving a substantial power boost while being essentially limited to once per adventure.
Let's talk about spellcasting for a bit. This was an issue I've dealt (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624437-Difficulty-making-customizable-spellcasting-with-stacking-classes) with before (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612077-5-5e-idea-for-stacking-caster-classes-but-how-to-handle-different-types-of-casting). The eventual solution was to create a unified Spellcasting feature that would give you a limited number of spells known and spell points. Some classes, like the wizard, might get a gimmick feature (e.g. Spellbook) that lets them prepare additional spells, but by default every spellcaster is a spells known caster. Every time you gain a level, you can trade your spell points for alternate features given by your class. For example, a wizard might be able to trade spell points away to get Vancian-style spell slots, where they have to prepare spells into specific slots but overall get a lot more castings than they would with just spell points. This way, it doesn't matter if you don't take any other "wizard" classes, as any caster class will get you spell points that could be converted into Vancian slots. Spell points can also be refunded when gaining a level, allowing you to change how your casting works as you gain new classes. I also want each caster class (or possibly every class, including non-casters) to have their own spell list which gets added to your personal spell list (a sort of build-your-own-spell list), but this would be a lot of work to actually implement.
While we're on the subject, let's also talk about core features that aren't spellcasting. Spellcasting takes up a huge design space in D&D, leaving little room for similar features for non-casters. In fact, spellcasting is probably the single most in-depth feature that exists in D&D. One idea could be to take the Battle Master maneuvers and turn them into a core feature for most/all martials, and each time they gain that core feature they upgrade their dice to a larger size and/or gain more dice and learn a couple more maneuvers. I'm also leaning toward making the dice refresh at the start of each turn, so that you can always use your maneuvers. I'm trying to think of what else could be used as a core feature. Sneak Attack could be another one, but I could also see just making Sneak Attack an Assassin gimmick feature that scales with level/proficiency bonus, so you'd only need to get it once. Not everything that uses a resource or scales needs to be a core ability after all; we could, for example, make a monk's ki automatically scale with proficiency. This is one area where I could really use some ideas.
I'll end off for now with multiclassing. By definition, multiclassing is required since each class is now only 4 levels. As such, I think we can repurpose the idea of multiclassing to something else. One of the homebrews I've come up with for vanilla 5e set your character level to be equal to your highest level in a single class, and "multiclassing" meant paying extra XP to get extra class levels, working similar to a gestalt character. I think that concept could be repurposed here. When you finish one class, you can choose to multiclass, which locks your character level (meaning you don't get more HP or increase your proficiency bonus), allowing you to buy the features of your new class at a reduced XP cost. I have my own rules for handling gestalt characters which can easily handle any instance of a character with more class levels than character levels; I won't write them up here for the sake of brevity, just know that it shouldn't be an issue.
Oh, as a final final thing, I'd probably take the opportunity to rename every instance of the word "level" so that there isn't as much confusion with new players. E.g. "level" might refer only to "character level", whereas each class has four "ranks" instead of levels, and spells are in different "grades", etc. Exact terminology to be determined. This way there will be less confusion over why the new player's 9th level ranger is unable to cast 9th level spells.
That's all I've got for now. If we can sort out some of these issues, then we might be able to start writing up the actual classes. I think this could be a very neat and fun mod for 5e, though, making it a lot easier to realize specific character concepts. Thanks for reading, I know I have a tendency to be verbose, so I do appreciate those who take the time to thoroughly read my posts instead of just skimming them.
So what do I mean by "stacking classes"? Well, each class is cut down to just 4 levels, and as you level up you'll need to pick a new class every time you finish your current one. This means a 20th level character will have a total of 5 classes. This also conveniently lines up such that you get a proficiency bump every time you start a new class. One of the big motivations for doing it this way is increased flexibility in character customization. There have been a number of character concepts I've had that really want specific features from this or that class, but not necessarily anything else from that class. Stacking classes makes it easier to mix'n'match features from different classes. It's sort of finding a happy middle ground between a rigid class system and the more open skill-based systems.
As for the implementation, how I'd start is by taking the existing base classes and condensing them down into two stacking classes; a basic class and a master class. Each subclass also gets reworked into a stacking class. "Basic" classes might be the only ones you could take at 1st level, with the "intermediate" former subclasses being available from 5th level and onward, and "master" classes available at 13th or 17th level. But there's still a lot of room to figure this all out. Ideally, each class is balanced against all the others, so while the master classes might have some powerful abilities you wouldn't want a 1st level character to have, they're comparable to what you'd get from any other class in the late game. Also, ASIs/feats would be separated from class advancement, probably purchased separately with XP.
With each class containing only four levels, we can easily set up a basic formula to determine what sorts of features we get and when. From the post linked above, we have:
1st level - Core Feature. A feature central to that class. Gets stronger the more times you gain this feature, encouraging you to take similar classes. Optionally, you could swap out a class's core feature with a different one.
2nd level - Gimmick. A unique trick that differentiates classes with the same core feature. This feature focuses on the mechanical aspect of the class.
3rd level - Ribbon. What the gimmick does for mechanics, this does for roleplay.
4th level - Capstone. Your reward for completing the class.
Having thought about it, though, there's an argument to be made for moving the gimmick up to 1st level, either switching places with the core feature or sharing 1st level with it, so that classes with the same core feature don't feel identical. Still not sure what would work best. If we did just move the gimmick up, then what sort of feature should be given at 2nd level?
Now, before we try to write up the individual classes, there are some issues we need to resolve. One of those is Extra Attack. If Extra Attack is a core feature, then that means fighters would start with two attacks right from 1st level, and would gain up to six attacks if you take all classes that get Extra Attack as a core feature. Instead, here's what I'm thinking: The basic fighter gets Extra Attack as a capstone, allowing them to make an additional attack, up to three max. Then, at a specific level, say, 9th level, everyone gets an automatic Extra Attack, allowing them to make up to two attacks. Fighters, who already have Extra Attack, can then make three total, while everyone else is stuck at two. The master fighter also gets Extra Attack as a capstone, allowing for up to four attacks. Thus, any character can eventually make two attacks (though non-martials won't have as many bonuses from class features), while any character who dips into either fighter class can make three attacks, and anyone who gets both fighter classes can make four attacks.
Another idea I'm playing with is hit points, resources, and rests. Messing with HP will necessarily require tweaks to anything that involves healing (e.g. spells), but I think there's a potential to make things more interesting. As a basic modification, every character, including NPCs, would have a number of hit dice equal to their proficiency bonus, and the equivalent amount of HP. PCs would start with two hit dice, likely one from their race (probably d8 for medium and d6 for small) and one from their class, and every time you advance to a new class you'd gain the hit die of that class. Now, that's a lot less HP than you normally get, which is going to make combat a lot deadlier if we don't also reduce damage. But, here's what I'm thinking: Once all your HP is gone, further damage starts coming out of max HP. You don't fall unconscious until you lose all your max HP. Then, we can make it relatively easy to regain HP, but difficult to restore max HP. One of the main benefits of this is that we can make HP healing relatively cheap, e.g. regen abilities or a healing cantrip, without them completely unbalancing the game.
As for rests, I'm considering a four-tiered rest system: A breather is 1 minute of rest (generally for any ability that is meant to be once per encounter), a break is 1 hour of rest (a short rest), a repose is 8 hours of rest that includes at least 6 hours of sleep and no more than 2 hours of light activity (a long rest; creatures that don't require sleep can do light activity throughout), and a vacation is a week of rest that includes at least 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity each day (e.g. "once per adventure" abilities). Using the HP mod above, you'd probably regain full HP after either a breather or a break, you could spend hit dice during a repose/long rest to regain max HP, and a vacation would fully restore max HP and hit dice. I'm also leaning toward making 6th+ level spell slots restore after a vacation rather than a repose/long rest, to make the use of 6th+ level spells more meaningful (also to curb the power of casters).
For resource pools, there's a couple things I'm considering. One is to have one or more generic resource pools that every character has that can give you extra uses of your abilities. You kind of already see this with several feats and a few class features that let you use it once for free, then require you to expend a resource (spell slot, psy die, ki, etc.) to use it again. If we're needing to write new abilities for classes, we could also introduce new resource systems. One idea I had was for a resource that you regain at the start of every turn, but then again that might be somewhat redundant with the action economy. The addition of vacations also opens up the possibility of having cool "last stand" type abilities, giving a substantial power boost while being essentially limited to once per adventure.
Let's talk about spellcasting for a bit. This was an issue I've dealt (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624437-Difficulty-making-customizable-spellcasting-with-stacking-classes) with before (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612077-5-5e-idea-for-stacking-caster-classes-but-how-to-handle-different-types-of-casting). The eventual solution was to create a unified Spellcasting feature that would give you a limited number of spells known and spell points. Some classes, like the wizard, might get a gimmick feature (e.g. Spellbook) that lets them prepare additional spells, but by default every spellcaster is a spells known caster. Every time you gain a level, you can trade your spell points for alternate features given by your class. For example, a wizard might be able to trade spell points away to get Vancian-style spell slots, where they have to prepare spells into specific slots but overall get a lot more castings than they would with just spell points. This way, it doesn't matter if you don't take any other "wizard" classes, as any caster class will get you spell points that could be converted into Vancian slots. Spell points can also be refunded when gaining a level, allowing you to change how your casting works as you gain new classes. I also want each caster class (or possibly every class, including non-casters) to have their own spell list which gets added to your personal spell list (a sort of build-your-own-spell list), but this would be a lot of work to actually implement.
While we're on the subject, let's also talk about core features that aren't spellcasting. Spellcasting takes up a huge design space in D&D, leaving little room for similar features for non-casters. In fact, spellcasting is probably the single most in-depth feature that exists in D&D. One idea could be to take the Battle Master maneuvers and turn them into a core feature for most/all martials, and each time they gain that core feature they upgrade their dice to a larger size and/or gain more dice and learn a couple more maneuvers. I'm also leaning toward making the dice refresh at the start of each turn, so that you can always use your maneuvers. I'm trying to think of what else could be used as a core feature. Sneak Attack could be another one, but I could also see just making Sneak Attack an Assassin gimmick feature that scales with level/proficiency bonus, so you'd only need to get it once. Not everything that uses a resource or scales needs to be a core ability after all; we could, for example, make a monk's ki automatically scale with proficiency. This is one area where I could really use some ideas.
I'll end off for now with multiclassing. By definition, multiclassing is required since each class is now only 4 levels. As such, I think we can repurpose the idea of multiclassing to something else. One of the homebrews I've come up with for vanilla 5e set your character level to be equal to your highest level in a single class, and "multiclassing" meant paying extra XP to get extra class levels, working similar to a gestalt character. I think that concept could be repurposed here. When you finish one class, you can choose to multiclass, which locks your character level (meaning you don't get more HP or increase your proficiency bonus), allowing you to buy the features of your new class at a reduced XP cost. I have my own rules for handling gestalt characters which can easily handle any instance of a character with more class levels than character levels; I won't write them up here for the sake of brevity, just know that it shouldn't be an issue.
Oh, as a final final thing, I'd probably take the opportunity to rename every instance of the word "level" so that there isn't as much confusion with new players. E.g. "level" might refer only to "character level", whereas each class has four "ranks" instead of levels, and spells are in different "grades", etc. Exact terminology to be determined. This way there will be less confusion over why the new player's 9th level ranger is unable to cast 9th level spells.
That's all I've got for now. If we can sort out some of these issues, then we might be able to start writing up the actual classes. I think this could be a very neat and fun mod for 5e, though, making it a lot easier to realize specific character concepts. Thanks for reading, I know I have a tendency to be verbose, so I do appreciate those who take the time to thoroughly read my posts instead of just skimming them.