Statless spell selection: Best spells for a 13 cha wm sorc

[PattThe]

Say you had a melee build split with wm sorcerer at 2/2, and you can pick up with that martial anytime you want. If you're delaying that to mess around with tides of chaos and only wielding a 13 charisma (got a great con save) what are the best spells to help out your team with Twinned spells and the like- ignoring saves and spell attack magic?

I could just take level 2 sorc and leave it there. Already I have more than a handful of sorcery spells cast per day thanks to a houserule on Triton, so I have Tides of Chaos constantly flashing on and off. Converting the sorcery points into a bonus spell slot and hitting total level 5 has me wielding enough free-rerolls fireballs and unicorns to last me a full day at any level. Getting more spell slots seems nuts, but if I just convert the lower slots for 2nd level slots I can effectively be a warlock who doesn't need to refuel. And if I can pull that off while smacking people in the face and never picking stat-dependent spells, do I gun it for twinned haste? :smallconfused:

2nd level spells are always pretty fundamentally fantastic- as long as you're not looking for consistent high damage. Losing out on blindness, there's still mirror image (non concentration on a warrior-caster) and enhance ability, enlarge (we have a rune knight) and knock and other great spells- though missing out on the ability to create meaningful illusions to anyone with a 12 or higher int. Misty step in a pinch, perhaps to replace Expeditious Retreat.
3rd level spells are, well, it's always fun when you get to look past Fireball. Haste is bonkers to twin so you can increase your own AC and potentially Dodge/Disengage alongside the free attack to secure an advantage. I can't use Dispel Magic reliably moving forward, and Flight isn't terribly important with a druid in the party. Intellect Fortress is resilient without the feat, when you need it and can concentrate on it. Again, it helps to twin it to reduce oncoming magical damage and loss of action-economy.
I seriously don't think 4th level magic is worth it to the build, and it gets terribly lopsided even if played into epic tiers. The big question to me seems to be: if 2nd level magic is worth it to the build to support the team with swings bigger than what the divine casters can do, is 3rd level worth it as well? Bend luck can save lives...

Also kind of terrified of trying to be support when I'm exploding all the time from absolutely spamming the everloving crud out of Tides of Chaos for the entire session (it's incredible in social scenes with the pitiful +1 to succeed). And before anyone else beats me to the punch, yes I confused myself :smalleek: and yes i couldn't beat my own terrible DC. I live for this, the DM is a good friend who first started D&D with a WM sorc so it's a big meme and brilliant for RP.

[Sherlockpwns]

I’m currently building a fighter wizard with 13 INT and the same general concept.

The short version is my intent is to cast one spell, two max, usually buffing myself before wading into melee where booming blade will be the primary dpr source.

I imagine you can easily go the same direction, buffing yourself and an ally.

So my list is all wizard spells, a few of them may not be sorcerer friendly.

A lot of the best spells are level 1s. Magic missile, feather fall, shield, absorb elements, and a litany of other out of combat utility spells.

Level 2 as you say, mirror image, blur, etc. but also out of combat spells like Knock, see invis, or dark vision.

Level 3 haste is clearly the “winner”- especially twinned. That said don’t overlook Fly. Counter spell or dispel are also no DC if you know what level the spell you are undoing is... and cast at that level to undo it.

I disagree that level 4 becomes lopsided, as either polymorph or greater invisibility are both amazing when twinned. Mostly polymorph. The only thing holding back turning two people into giant apes or rexs is how much space you’ll take up and how many hp the dm will have to burn through to keep it interesting.

Level 5 spells you could go for animate objects, though imo check with your DM in advance because RAW this spell is problematic from the dpr standpoint.

After that I see far fewer interesting “no dc” spells. A few like globe of invulnerability and some other buffs.

In short my opinion is to lean heavier on the spells side. Not only does that mean MORE chaos, but because you are focused one buff spells over CC or damage you’ll have a ton of out of combat spells to cast and you won’t have to dread the “but what if I need this later” trap. Instead you’ll be like “dark vision for all the humans!” And everyone will love you.

While my character concept is more self-focused and thanks to war wizard abilities a bit more tanky, I see nothing wrong with going sorc and doubling the main buff instead. It may even be the better path, at least so long as you have sorcery points to spend.

[PattThe]

I’m currently building a fighter wizard with 13 INT and the same general concept.

The short version is my intent is to cast one spell, two max, usually buffing myself before wading into melee where booming blade will be the primary dpr source.

I imagine you can easily go the same direction, buffing yourself and an ally.

So my list is all wizard spells, a few of them may not be sorcerer friendly.

A lot of the best spells are level 1s. Magic missile, feather fall, shield, absorb elements, and a litany of other out of combat utility spells.

Level 2 as you say, mirror image, blur, etc. but also out of combat spells like Knock, see invis, or dark vision.

Level 3 haste is clearly the “winner”- especially twinned. That said don’t overlook Fly. Counter spell or dispel are also no DC if you know what level the spell you are undoing is... and cast at that level to undo it.

I disagree that level 4 becomes lopsided, as either polymorph or greater invisibility are both amazing when twinned. Mostly polymorph. The only thing holding back turning two people into giant apes or rexs is how much space you’ll take up and how many hp the dm will have to burn through to keep it interesting.

Level 5 spells you could go for animate objects, though imo check with your DM in advance because RAW this spell is problematic from the dpr standpoint.

After that I see far fewer interesting “no dc” spells. A few like globe of invulnerability and some other buffs.

In short my opinion is to lean heavier on the spells side. Not only does that mean MORE chaos, but because you are focused one buff spells over CC or damage you’ll have a ton of out of combat spells to cast and you won’t have to dread the “but what if I need this later” trap. Instead you’ll be like “dark vision for all the humans!” And everyone will love you.

While my character concept is more self-focused and thanks to war wizard abilities a bit more tanky, I see nothing wrong with going sorc and doubling the main buff instead. It may even be the better path, at least so long as you have sorcery points to spend.

Back when I never imagined ever taking S2 I had False life and Magic Missile (alongside Fog Cloud, triton) just to break concentration on enemy mages and throw up a non concentration self buff. Nowadays false life is useless.

I disagree with many things here, Polymorph is concentration and has a DC, and I'll never counter anything that is a threat by the time I would learn it. I don't think this character will be beyond total level 9 this campaign so the level three magic stuff is just out of play unless I want to gun it and be 3/5 at level 8. I don't think I'd ever work my way through all those spell slots even if I cast a spell for every attack roll and ability check. But if twinned haste is worth it on my team then I will have all the time to weigh it next to extra attack..

That's really the question. I take two levels of sorcerer now and that means the earliest I can get extra attack is 8, which is basically the climax of the build any way I mark it. The alternative is only having 3 sorcerer for Enlarge and Mirror Image and getting extra attack at that level 8.

Last combination would be 4/4 for full feat access... What was your choice on level splits and extra attack? With a +1 charisma I can't imagine combat cantrips surpass rage extra attack buuuuuut my str is only 16..

[follacchioso]

I have a very similar character: a swords bard with relatively low charisma and high str. So I went through the same challenge, optimising for a melee combat and focusing on support spells. Bards have a wider selection than sorcerers, although they lack a few important ones. They can use a weapon as spell caster focus, which is very important on a caster, if your group follows the rules.

As a melee sorcerer, Shield and Absorb Elements are good choices. Note you will need to have a free hand to cast them, so you won't be able to hold a shield, unless warcaster.

Expeditious retreat is an excellent choice as well, especially if you play with maps were distance is important. In any case, mobility is key for melee fighters.

Sleep and Colour spray work wonders at low levels, they don't depend on your Spellcasting modifier, and will always be useful.

Lv4 offers Great Invisibility and Dimension Door, both very good on melee fighters.

[Sherlockpwns]

Wait did you say rage? I figured this was a fighter/sorc for some reason. I guess you never said what the other two levels were. That may change some things.

Anyway the math on extra attack vs cantrip is pretty simple. You are “behind” your ability modifier. Since your str is 16, you do 3 less damage without extra attack. Ironically booming blade does MORE damage than extra attack if the enemy triggers its special ability.

Anyway in short I personally don’t put a lot of value on a single extra attack vs booming blade or gfb. That math changes if you are dual wielding or going for gwm. So, assuming you are just using a melee weapon- either war caster sword and shield or just a versatile two hander, I don’t know what the melee levels are adding that sorcerer levels aren’t since the melee class isn’t clear.

As for polymorph- you don’t cast it at the enemy! Lol. You turn yourself and your best friend into a giant ape or T-Rex. Yes it won’t be online till level 9, which as you say is kinda the end of your expected campaign, but even fighting something resistant to non-magical attacks the spell is still useful- even if it’s just to prevent someone from dying. It takes a long time to blow through the 136hp buffer it gives. For some reason there I have heard many people say it is super op at 7 and not at 9, but in my experience it’s worth casting well into the mid-teens against anything not resistant or to save an ally.

[PattThe]

Wait did you say rage? I figured this was a fighter/sorc for some reason. I guess you never said what the other two levels were. That may change some things.

Anyway the math on extra attack vs cantrip is pretty simple. You are “behind” your ability modifier. Since your str is 16, you do 3 less damage without extra attack. Ironically booming blade does MORE damage than extra attack if the enemy triggers its special ability.

Anyway in short I personally don’t put a lot of value on a single extra attack vs booming blade or gfb. That math changes if you are dual wielding or going for gwm. So, assuming you are just using a melee weapon- either war caster sword and shield or just a versatile two hander, I don’t know what the melee levels are adding that sorcerer levels aren’t since the melee class isn’t clear.

As for polymorph- you don’t cast it at the enemy! Lol. You turn yourself and your best friend into a giant ape or T-Rex. Yes it won’t be online till level 9, which as you say is kinda the end of your expected campaign, but even fighting something resistant to non-magical attacks the spell is still useful- even if it’s just to prevent someone from dying. It takes a long time to blow through the 136hp buffer it gives. For some reason there I have heard many people say it is super op at 7 and not at 9, but in my experience it’s worth casting well into the mid-teens against anything not resistant or to save an ally.

Thanks for the replies. I did say I'm not a fan of offensive polymorph because comparing CR to level as a flat comparison makes me want to tear my hair out. Level 9 doesn't exist anyway. I usually just drop my weapon and hold my necklace for spells, keeping a shield on when I can. You can easily pick up or draw a new weapon next turn.
Bard is neat because you don't have to multiclass, but as is said you miss out on the spells that make the whole idea worth it.
I still want to be in melee to hit people. So, yeah, the build is a WM sorc WM barbarian. I need to return to Barbarian sooner or later for the HP if nothing else. The question is, when my party hits level 5 and starts throwing out extra attacks and 3rd level magic, do I want to be throwing up mirror images and enhance abilities or do I want to be raging every combat. So far very few enemies end up targeting me, and I'm usually away from the group due to my wild magic being dangerous..

[Grod_The_Giant]

If the other half of your build is Barbarian, and your GM is letting you abuse racial features for extra sorcery points, I don't think it's worth taking any more Sorcerer. Rage shuts off pretty much everything you could be doing with magic, outside of non-concentration buffs like Mirror Image, and spells like that are neither common enough nor powerful enough to be worth delaying things like Extra Attack or Feral Instincts.

[PattThe]

If the other half of your build is Barbarian, and your GM is letting you abuse racial features for extra sorcery points, I don't think it's worth taking any more Sorcerer. Rage shuts off pretty much everything you could be doing with magic, outside of non-concentration buffs like Mirror Image, and spells like that are neither common enough nor powerful enough to be worth delaying things like Extra Attack or Feral Instincts.

Ah, not sorcery points. I would never think to convert Innate Spellcasting per-day powers into spell slots via sorcery points. Instead, they count as "casting a sorcerer level of first level or higher" for the sake of wild surge as they are on my possible spell list and use my charisma.
As for rage, I use tides of chaos outside of combat constantly. False Life was a nice no concentration spell to flex whenever I want but now I'll take Exp Retreat instead for forever utility.

Wild Magic allows me to start a fight already with a Tides charge spent prior (I spend most times 'sparking' having long since popped tides of chaos, so I have surges on demand 90% of the time) I can open up a fight with a spell and then rage the following turn, after positioning myself and rolling for a wild effect safely away from the group. Last fight I confused myself and ended up being a terrain feature, keeping Gust of Wind up and semi-randomly pushing around some enemies and drawing streaks of difficult terrain. Had I cast any other spell (like false life) I would have just sat out the combat. However, that's just one result. I could have easily done effectively nothing and then dropped the gust of wind in favor of raging. What I like to point out is that I have only used my innate spellcasting for this and I still have two spell slots left. I've gotten two great social checks made at advantage and now can get advantage on something else, and can easily do it two more times today. If I had raged, I would only have the one resource left for the rest of the day. Rage is the last resort that can be pivoted to at any point. The more spell slots I effectively have (compared to the slow advancement of rages per day) then the less painful it is to drop a plan and rage to save lives. The idea is to be out of these magical resources by the time I am raging, eliminating nonbos. Honestly, the only reason Haste is considerably interesting is because the AC boost makes it more likely to prevent being broken and the extra attack and rage would never be able to be combined anyway since nobody else in the party can cast it.

It's about teamwork. I've seen too many barbarians do absolutely nothing all campaign when they can't be delivered to the enemy by the magic of their friends. I want to support them instead this time around, in ways neither of our two divine casters can. If I can do that without concentration or at least with a swole barbarian save, I can avoid being only useful in melee as a brainless beast. The question is, do I get HP now or HP later.

Also, again, I'm not buffing STR. Extra attack doesn't get me better odds and it makes reckless attack needed which just spirals into being useless more than 5 ft from a target and having no way of changing the tides of battle outside of hitting something hard. Casting a twinned enlarge on me and my rune knight friend is sick though. Plus, feral instincts isn't relevant if your team uses the creativity of 2nd level magic to avoid even combat with enemies. The statless build is about avoiding die rolls in general. The funny part is then using that creativity to roll wild magic.