Help Revising the Crafting System?

[Destro2119]

So recently I have been trying to find ways to fix the currently flawed crafting systems of Pathfinder (but this is mostly applicable to 3.X too) for my games.

A few things I am trying to address are as follows:

-Merging magic and mundane crafting
I am taking a page out of PF2e's operations here and am trying to find a method to combine the systems. Maybe I could do away with all specialized crafting feats and just make one "magic Crafting" feat that allows you to craft magic using the base system

-Remaking the base system
As I am sure you all know, the base system for crafting objects is just awkward. As such, I think systems such as the "Making Craft Work" homebrew would be greatly helpful. However, a problem I still need to deal with is how to sync that system up with crafting the different kinds of magic items.

-Magic item crafting
For this aspect of the system, I am trying to make distinctions between items more obvious. For example, I plan to adopt a PF2e/SF- type armor upgrade/weapon fusion system for arms and armor. Also by removing the "you can only craft one item a day" clause. However, a problem I have currently is figuring out how to decide the different DCs and crafting times for different kinds of magic items, ie consumables from wands from wondrous items from arms and armor upgrades.

-Mechanics (skills, feats, class abilities) tie-ins
The new system presented here will likely also require several changes to mechanics in other places that interact with it. For skills, I plan to create or revise skill unlocks like PF Unchained that interact with crafting. Feats will probably scale in effects, though help on specifics is welcomed. Class abilities will probably need minor conversions.

-Item economy
Another thing that might also need changes as a result of the system is overall item economy. It seems to be tht quite a lot of things right now are either overpriced or just randomly have prices in the thousands for no other reason than to dazzle the player or be WBL sinks. With a lesser emphasis on "math fixer" items such as +[x] stuff, I hope to make prices such that both quality of life magic items are more available and that the prices are more possible to craft with the new system.

Any help or insights you can offer on this concept and/or my problems is welcomed!

[gijoemike]

Keep in mind one reason there where multiple feats was to lock PCs out until a certain level. Staves & rods at lvl 12 for example. In PF there was craft magic arms and armor feat for a crafter of lvl 5. How would you gate tiers of items behind certain levels especially if you plan to make those items cheaper to make as a whole?


Second, feats are the most precious resource of a PC. By having multiple craft feats the creator is limited in taking other powerful feats. How would you limit them otherwise by reducing this resource? I see an exploit for making caster crafters even more absurd and leaving mundanes in the dust.

[calam]

For merging magic and mundane crafting in my game I made it so Item creation feats were gained automatically after you gain a certain amount of ranks in the skill. Weapon and armor crafting skills would get you Craft Magic Arms and Armor, alchemy would give you brew potion and spell craft would allow you to craft wands, rods and staves. Most other skills defaulted to craft wonderous items.

[Mordante]

Why is crafting flawed? No one ever crafts anything.

[Maat Mons]

If you're going to fix crafting, why not fix magic items too? I suggest you completely do away with what I'll call "treadmill items."

What is a "treadmill item" you ask? It's any item whose function is to permit players to keep their numbers in line with where the game expects those numbers to be. So every number-boosting item.

The entire numbers game is one big treadmill. You work to get your numbers up to a good place relative to the enemies you're facing. And then the DM starts putting you up against enemies which require bigger numbers. Then you once again work to get your numbers up to a good place relative to these new enemies. And, of course, once you get there, the DM responds by putting you up against enemies that require yet larger numbers still.

Now, as a level-based game, D&D can't help but have a giant treadmill at the heart of its gameplay. But there's no reason magic items have to be a part of this. If higher-level characters are expected to have bigger numbers, why not build those numbers directly into the progressions of levels?

[Raven777]

If higher-level characters are expected to have bigger numbers, why not build those numbers directly into the progressions of levels?

Because gear progression in the form of stats sticks is also part of a lot of RPGs; difference in numbers being easier to implement than difference in kind. Players also tend to have an easier time grasping those items as quantifiable upgrades and goals.

Anyway, these items' presence is rather easy to handle: rather than revising every character progression table and monster stat block to account for removing them or baking them in... just make sure they're part of loot and rewards as the adventure goes on. I don't even count the Big Six against WBL anymore. I just make sure to sprinkle a couple of them in every dungeon.

[Maat Mons]

It's not that hard to roll the bonuses into level. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) Though I think the whole "attunement" thing from that variant is dumb.

[Raven777]

Not a big fan of automatic progression. Feels really disjointed and arbitrary, whereas items just feel right. There also seems to be more interaction and gameplay in acquiring the items, rather than just automatically getting the bonus. What's the difference between giving a free Deflection +2, Resistance +3 to a 10th level player, vs. placing the appropriate free Ring and Cloak in loot for him to find, vs. making sure the party has the gold to purchase or downtime to craft whatever it needs at the appropriate level?

I understand a desire to liberate the slots for other items with active effects, but that's what slotless items can be for. Nothing stops a player from befriending a caravan of Varisians or some extraplanar scribe and having their Resistance bonus crafted into a shoulder tattoo (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation), and get some other kind of magical cloak. A DM who wants to foster variety has full agency to provide their players with the means to achieve it.

[Destro2119]

If you're going to fix crafting, why not fix magic items too? I suggest you completely do away with what I'll call "treadmill items."

What is a "treadmill item" you ask? It's any item whose function is to permit players to keep their numbers in line with where the game expects those numbers to be. So every number-boosting item.

The entire numbers game is one big treadmill. You work to get your numbers up to a good place relative to the enemies you're facing. And then the DM starts putting you up against enemies which require bigger numbers. Then you once again work to get your numbers up to a good place relative to these new enemies. And, of course, once you get there, the DM responds by putting you up against enemies that require yet larger numbers still.

Now, as a level-based game, D&D can't help but have a giant treadmill at the heart of its gameplay. But there's no reason magic items have to be a part of this. If higher-level characters are expected to have bigger numbers, why not build those numbers directly into the progressions of levels?

Actually, part of my plan for my game is to include automatic progression so as to increase the accessibility and amount of quality of life items/quadratic items, like carpets of flying or magic amulets, etc.

That's not to say weapon enchantments will vanish, but it's a start.

Another problem I've been having is how to deal with ridiculous currency prices, and how the gold standard means that every item is casually in the thousands of gp, which makes for a lot of cumbersome carrying.