Poison Caltrops

[elyktsorb]

You can coat caltrops in poison right? Aside from Basic Poison, and the poison you make with the Poisoner Feat (which both state they can only be applied to weapons or ammunition)

[Segev]

I don't see why not. It causes injury, so any injury poison should work.

[MaxWilson]

I'd day "yes but it's not very poison-efficient." You don't know which caltrop is going to pierce someone's foot. Might have to spend like 30 doses of poison on a bag of caltrops.

[Kane0]

I'd day "yes but it's not very poison-efficient." You don't know which caltrop is going to pierce someone's foot. Might have to spend like 30 doses of poison on a bag of caltrops.

For liquids yeah, for something in powder form you could just dump it in the caltrop bag and shake.

[MaxWilson]

For liquids yeah, for something in powder form you could just dump it in the caltrop bag and shake.

Doesn't that still imply that you had enough powder for lots and lots of weapons?

Go for cheap stuff instead, like good old disease-soaked blankets and caltrops smeared with both honey and fire ants.

[elyktsorb]

Doesn't that still imply that you had enough powder for lots and lots of weapons?

Again, outside of Basic Poison, and the poison from the Poisoner Feat, poisons don't state how much of them you have.

Basic Poison for example will coat - 3 Arrow Heads or 1 Dagger or 1 Greatsword. Despite the fact that if you had enough poison to coat a Greatsword, you likely have enough to coat a Dagger 2 or 3 times, and enough to coat 2 dozen Arrow Heads.

[JackPhoenix]

Again, outside of Basic Poison, and the poison from the Poisoner Feat, poisons don't state how much of them you have.

Basic Poison for example will coat - 3 Arrow Heads or 1 Dagger or 1 Greatsword. Despite the fact that if you had enough poison to coat a Greatsword, you likely have enough to coat a Dagger 2 or 3 times, and enough to coat 2 dozen Arrow Heads.

Which implies you also have enough poison to only coat 1 or 3 caltrops.

[Amnestic]

Caltrops aren't individual objects when used as an item, they're a "bag of caltrops" (not even specifying how many are in a bag). Maybe there is only three. You don't know. If you can apply it to "one weapon", why can't you apply it to "one bag of caltrops"?

I don't really see a mechanical concern balance wise considering the limited applicability of both poisons and caltrops in general.

[elyktsorb]

Which implies you also have enough poison to only coat 1 or 3 caltrops.

Well no, it implies you have enough poison to not coat anything that isn't a weapon or ammunition per RAW. The other poisons don't have this restriction.

[Dr. Cliché]

For liquids yeah, for something in powder form you could just dump it in the caltrop bag and shake.

Couldn't you also do that with a liquid?

[nickl_2000]

Couldn't you also do that with a liquid?

I suppose you could, but the linen or leather bag that contains the caltrops would absorb a fair amount of it.

[Segev]

It sounds to me like the question, boiled down to mechanics, is, "Assuming we aren't applying mechanics-as-physics such that the lack of permission to apply a poison to anything but a weapon means it's impossible to poison anything but a weapon, how many doses of poison does it take to coat a 5 ft. square worth of caltrops?" (Or maybe a 10 ft. square)

[elyktsorb]

It sounds to me like the question, boiled down to mechanics, is, "Assuming we aren't applying mechanics-as-physics such that the lack of permission to apply a poison to anything but a weapon means it's impossible to poison anything but a weapon, how many doses of poison does it take to coat a 5 ft. square worth of caltrops?" (Or maybe a 10 ft. square)

Well a bag of caltrops that you can buy to cover a 5ft square is a bag of twenty literally called a 'Caltrops (Bag of Twenty)' in the Adventuring Gear section of the Player's Handbook.

If we disregard the 'weapons and ammunition clause' as given by two poisons. It is assumed that any single dose of poison is enough to cover any single weapon.

If we look at the weapons list, I surmise the largest weapon you could coat with a single dose of poison, is a Net. A Net is a martial weapon that deals no damage, so applying most poisons to it would be pointless. Except, there are a few contact poisons, poisons that deal their effect simply by hitting the creature.

So for instance, you could take Carrion Crawler Mucus, and coat a Net in it. If you manage to hit a creature with this net, they would have to make a save against the Carrion Crawler Mucus or be paralyzed.

All that is to say, if you can coat an entire net with 1 dose of poison, you can probably coat a bag of 20 caltrops.

[Segev]

All that is to say, if you can coat an entire net with 1 dose of poison, you can probably coat a bag of 20 caltrops.

This seems pretty reasonable to me on first blush, though my next question is this: Does the poison "get used up" the first time anybody is damaged by the caltrops? I believe - and please correct me if I'm wrong - poison is used up after one successful injury from the weapon it's coated on. (I could be wrong; I have knocking around in my head various house rules that I'm having trouble disentangling from the RAW, and I may be overcorrecting.)

[stoutstien]

My ruling is it takes twice as much poison for caltrops.

[nickl_2000]

My ruling is it takes twice as much poison for caltrops.

Seems legit enough, how many times can it hit/different creature can it poison?

[stoutstien]

Seems legit enough, how many times can it hit/different creature can it poison?

Depends on the size of the creature (s) in question. Large and above only once, medium 2, small 3, and tiny 4. I round down when it comes up.

I also use the same rules for nets because they are adventure gear in my games and not a weapon. Nets are basically a aoe with different size options.

I do have one player that really likes using items and adventuring gear and they have end up crafting A specialized set of both caltrops and bearings that contain poison and release on applying pressure. It takes longer to set them up because you have to be careful laying them out but they have fun.

[elyktsorb]

poison is used up after one successful injury from the weapon it's coated on. (I could be wrong; I have knocking around in my head various house rules that I'm having trouble disentangling from the RAW, and I may be overcorrecting.)

Well for this question we must consult the various poisons.

And.. That brings us back to Basic Poison, and the poison made with the Poisoner Feat, as no other poison states how long it lasts or when it is used up.

Basic Poison states that once applied to a weapon, it retains it's potency for 1 minute before drying. Which implies every attack made within 1 minute will deal poison damage.

The poison made from the Poisoner Feat share's the above 'retains potency for 1 minute before drying' but adds another caveat in 'or until you hit with the weapon' bear in mind you do not have to hit a creature with the weapon, just hitting anything with the weapon will nullify this poison.

So there are two ways to approach this. Either the Poisoner Feat is to be the defacto 'this is how poisons work' mechanic, which would imply ALL poisons should function in the same way as the poison made in this feat.

Or each poison still works based on individual circumstances.

The only other ruling is a JC tweet that states Injury Poisons lose potency when they deal damage that delivers the poison. But this doesn't help with every other kind of poison.

[stoutstien]

Poisons were left vague on purpose so they weren't automatically added into the basic progress of a character if they want to be tuned on the upper end of the spectrum. Same with crafting and other activities. It definitely could have been more well-rounded as an optional rule but I don't mind them just kind of passing it off to the DMs to deal with.

[elyktsorb]

It definitely could have been more well-rounded as an optional rule but I don't mind them just kind of passing it off to the DMs to deal with.

Honestly I really hate this because it just makes it seem like Poisons are a DM tool

[JackPhoenix]

If we look at the weapons list, I surmise the largest weapon you could coat with a single dose of poison, is a Net. A Net is a martial weapon that deals no damage, so applying most poisons to it would be pointless. Except, there are a few contact poisons, poisons that deal their effect simply by hitting the creature.

That's not what the description of contact poisons say. It does not require hitting anything, it requires touching the object. Which means the idea doesn't work, because....


So for instance, you could take Carrion Crawler Mucus, and coat a Net in it. If you manage to hit a creature with this net, they would have to make a save against the Carrion Crawler Mucus or be paralyzed.

By RAW, if you touch the net (to throw it at someone), YOU're exposed to the poison (unless you wear gloves or otherwise prevent a contact with skin), and the poison loses its potency.


All that is to say, if you can coat an entire net with 1 dose of poison, you can probably coat a bag of 20 caltrops.

A net is a single object. A bag of caltrops is 21 different objects.


Honestly I really hate this because it just makes it seem like Poisons are a DM tool

That's what they are supposed to be, yes.

[stoutstien]

Honestly I really hate this because it just makes it seem like Poisons are a DM tool

It's more like DM discretion than a tool. Those areas where individual games can be customized for the players involved is where this system shines compared to others.

[elyktsorb]

That's not what the description of contact poisons say. It does not require hitting anything, it requires touching the object. Which means the idea doesn't work, because....

By RAW, if you touch the net (to throw it at someone), YOU're exposed to the poison (unless you wear gloves or otherwise prevent a contact with skin), and the poison loses its potency.

A net is a single object. A bag of caltrops is 21 different objects.

That's what they are supposed to be, yes.

Contact Poisons do not have an actual description. Carrion Crawler Mucus is just defined as (poison contact), there is no place in any book that states what contact poisons do and don't do.

I said 'hit' because that was part of the scenario. Unless you prefer to coat objects and just attempt to touch creatures with them mid-fight, which you will likely need to make a 'to-hit' roll to do.

Yes, obviously, I think it can be assumed that in the described scenario you would take a measure to prevent yourself from touching the poison. And by RAW, there is no losing it's potency. Doesn't state it anywhere.

If your going to willfully ignore the discussion I can't help you.

[Ettina]

I suppose you could, but the linen or leather bag that contains the caltrops would absorb a fair amount of it.

So, first you empty out your waterskin and fill it with caltrops and poison. The waterskin is made of waterproof material, so it wouldn't absorb the poison.

I suppose the caltrops might damage the waterskin, though.

[JackPhoenix]

Contact Poisons do not have an actual description. Carrion Crawler Mucus is just defined as (poison contact), there is no place in any book that states what contact poisons do and don't do.

The DMG disagrees with you: "Contact poison can be smeared on an object and remains potent until it is touched or washed off. A creature that touches contact poison with exposed skin suffers its effects."


If your going to willfully ignore the discussion I can't help you.

Luckily, if you're not familiar with the text of the rules, I *can* help you.

[elyktsorb]

The DMG disagrees with you: "Contact poison can be smeared on an object and remains potent until it is touched or washed off. A creature that touches contact poison with exposed skin suffers its effects."

Luckily, if you're not familiar with the text of the rules, I *can* help you.

I must have missed that portion in the DMG, still, my asserrtion on you disregarding other aspects of the discussion still stand.