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tordirycgoyust
2021-06-05, 09:57 PM
I've been giving some thought to the notion that spells are essentially class features, and it makes me want to really explore the class design space by essentially building entire classes around particular spells or small sets of spells that, as core class features, would be cast at will.

I remember in the 3.5 days Frank & K designed a number of classes (all around tier 2 in terms of balance) around a similar concept, such as the Conduit of the Lower Planes (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Conduit_of_the_Lower_Planes_(3.5e_Class)), a class that could basically get an at will SLA of each spell level from one of a number of predetermined lists. Or the Stranger with the Burning Eyes (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_(3.5e_Prestige_Clas s)), a prestige class almost completely built around casting Magic Jar at will, with the other class features acting in support of this. Or the Fire Mage (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)) and Ice Mage (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Ice_Mage_(3.5e_Class)), which respectively can do just about anything interesting one might want to do with fire or ice, mostly at will.

In particular, the design of the Stranger with the Burning Eyes puts me in mind of the way that 5th level spells (or thereabouts) often are powerful and flexible and iconic enough that, if used at will and supported with a decent foundation of lower level class features, they are almost good enough to be fun and effective all he way to level 20 (with the remaining power growth being filled by features more akin to metamagic than anything fundamentally new). Magic Jar, Polymorph, Bestow Curse, Animate Dead, Animate Objects, Conjure X, Bigby's Hand, Dominate Monster, Fabricate, Wall of X, Fortune's Favor, Simulacrum, and Major Image all immediately spring to mind as possibilities.

In particular, I like the idea that one could create a whole set of classes (or subclasses) almost as simple as a typical martial class, but with a lot more depth and variety than the martial archetype usually allows.

This might be the kind of thing that only works/is remotely balanced if you start play at 9th level since it's so hard to nerf many of these spells, or if it's a game where only classes of this sort are allowed. I dunno. That's why I'm soliciting your thoughts, so I can get a sense of the possibilities and pitfalls of this idea before I try diving headfirst into designing like a dozen new classes. In short, how dumb is this idea in the 5e context and how much work do I have to make it less dumb? Assume standard UA things like not allowing multiclassing and not worrying about the class/sublass structure.

Polymorph strikes me as largely self-regulating with its CR scaling, and can be further tweaked with access to different creature types and limiting it to targeting the self. In addition to the concentration requirement it might also be a good idea to allow damage to partially bleed through? Basically, it should be relatively straightforward to make a pure wildshaping class without any other Druid spellcasting baggage that's reasonably balanced from 1-20.

Wall of X is a pretty big family of spells, and at lower levels you can throw in Floating Disc, Fog Cloud, and Entangle, maybe even Web and Tiny Hut. Lots of options and scaling for all levels, possibly even to the point of having too many options.

Bigby's Hand can be scaled down to very low levels with Mage Hand and Unseen Servant, and at higher levels it's easy to twin and the like, but I'm iffy on how to fill in the early-mid levels.

Fortune's Favor is strong from 1-20 if you can do it basically every round. Shouldn't be too hard to make work, even if it leaves the character sheet relatively empty. At higher levels some metamagic can be thrown in to spice things up if necessary.

Starting with Hex and then granting Bestow Curse at about level 5 seems like something that scales reasonably well through a whole career, given free heightening.

Charm and Dominate is a decently large family of spells that scales pretty well across all levels.

Simulacrum isn't that bad if it's restricted to self-only for the first few levels, especially if it's pretty much your only class feature and on a weaker chassis than the Fighter.

Illusions are always a gamble depending on the DM, but the Image line is a pretty solid family of spells.

Fabricate and Creation are kind of scary if they can be used on combat timescales. Perfect for a trapsmith type character, but I have no idea how to balance it.

Find Familiar and the Conjure X line are another strong family of spells. And Conjure Animals can be nerfed in several ways for the lower levels.

Magic Jar, Animate Dead, and Animate Objects strike me as annoyingly hard to balance at lower levels. Doable, but hard. But their playstyles also kind of overlap with several other propositions here so they're a bit lower priority.

MrStabby
2021-06-06, 04:59 AM
Hmm. Interesting.

I would like mirror image I think. At 3rd level you can pick it up chosing a subclass. Its a good enough spell at that level as well.

Add some class features to boost image number and AC. Add sentinel ability to retaliate when an image is hit as a class feature... at higher levels the images can make attacks or you can sacrifice an image to send it off as a scout.




Edit:

I think that the idea of building round families ofspells is also interesting. I wouldn't mind a "prismatic"class - prismatic spray, colour spray, prismatic wall...


Banishment could be fun - how long you send a creature away for, to which demiplane you send them, whether they can make follow up saves to return. Also, a banishment focussed "excorcist" character would be fun.


Also, I thought the title,at first read, was classes built round [Ironic spells.

Herbert_W
2021-06-06, 02:47 PM
Would you consider it acceptable to bring back prestige classes into 5e? I'm asking because a lot of these iconic spells would work very nicely as the foundation for a prestige class.

I'm imagining each of these prestige classes having the ability to cast the iconic spell as a prerequisite, and a 1st-level feature that grants the spell as an unswappiable spell known. Being able to cast most iconic spells at-will would be a bit too powerful for a single level of a prestige class, so I'd recommend gradually increasing the character's ability to cast that spell. For example, you could give them one free casting per class level per day (or encounter) in addition to being able to cast the spell from spell slots, then at-will casting as a capstone. Continuing spell slot progression is an obvious choice, but tuning that down to 1/2 casting might be necessary for classes with particularly powerful class features.

This system would produce characters that feel a bit like superheroes, in that they have limited powersets but learn new uses for existing powers as time goes on. That's a departure from the usual feel of DnD spellcasting classes - which could be good or bad, but is certainly noteworthy.

tordirycgoyust
2021-06-06, 04:42 PM
Would you consider it acceptable to bring back prestige classes into 5e? I'm asking because a lot of these iconic spells would work very nicely as the foundation for a prestige class.

I'm imagining each of these prestige classes having the ability to cast the iconic spell as a prerequisite, and a 1st-level feature that grants the spell as an unswappiable spell known. Being able to cast most iconic spells at-will would be a bit too powerful for a single level of a prestige class, so I'd recommend gradually increasing the character's ability to cast that spell. For example, you could give them one free casting per class level per day (or encounter) in addition to being able to cast the spell from spell slots, then at-will casting as a capstone. Continuing spell slot progression is an obvious choice, but tuning that down to 1/2 casting might be necessary for classes with particularly powerful class features.

This system would produce characters that feel a bit like superheroes, in that they have limited powersets but learn new uses for existing powers as time goes on. That's a departure from the usual feel of DnD spellcasting classes - which could be good or bad, but is certainly noteworthy.

Prestige classes would be acceptable in principle (one of my core inspirations is just such a PrC after all), but I'd rather expand things to a line or family of appropriately thematic spells and class features and just keep it as a specialized 1-20 class uncontaminated by other class mechanics. There are enough spells I want to build classes around that I can happily ignore the few that would need to be done as PrCs until I start scraping the bottom of the barrel.

And yes, the idea is essentially to create superheroes, in terms of mechanics. You want a consistent core theme and set of mechanics underlying your character (this is practically magic system design 101), and the martial classes generally do a decent job at this, unlike casters where you just have this expansive spell list and it's suboptimal to stick to a theme too closely... but the 5e formula isn't great at allowing more fantastical character concepts to exist on a martial chassis, while the caster chassis are inherently too unfocused. So to fill this important gap in the design space, I'm resorting to homebrew.

Currently the idea is to start with a simple d6 light armour simple weapon base class chassis that enters its subclass at level 1 and otherwise pretty much just has ASIs. Call it the Spell Savant or something. Said subclass determines the iconic... let's not call it a spell but rather an iconic magical powerset, even if most of the class features will refer directly to a spell.

Old Harry MTX
2021-06-07, 04:14 AM
Personally, I've never been a huge fan of casters features that force you to choose a certain spell when you reach a certain level, but things are different when we talk about melee fighters. For example I find the mechanics behind the Arcane Trickster very funny, so I like your idea a lot.

The melee classes (fighter, monk or rogue) could fit well subclasses that revolve around one or more specific spells.

The first ideas i had are:

The blink warrior, focused on teleportation spells (misty step, blink, teleport ...), maybe with the ability to make an attack after a misty step or to use it as a reaction in response to something.

The anti-caster predator, focused on spells that hinder others casting (counterspell, dispel magic, detect magic, maybe silence ...), with the ability, for example, to execute an attack after a successful counterspell.

MrStabby
2021-06-07, 06:14 AM
Personally, I've never been a huge fan of casters features that force you to choose a certain spell when you reach a certain level, but things are different when we talk about melee fighters. For example I find the mechanics behind the Arcane Trickster very funny, so I like your idea a lot.

The melee classes (fighter, monk or rogue) could fit well subclasses that revolve around one or more specific spells.

The first ideas i had are:

The blink warrior, focused on teleportation spells (misty step, blink, teleport ...), maybe with the ability to make an attack after a misty step or to use it as a reaction in response to something.

The anti-caster predator, focused on spells that hinder others casting (counterspell, dispel magic, detect magic, maybe silence ...), with the ability, for example, to execute an attack after a successful counterspell.

I think if it were to be a subclass, then yes - it should be a martial subclass simply because any other class would have so many uses for spell slots and the theme would be likely to get lost amongst the other casting.

My preference would be to stick something like this on the monk - Ki gives an existing resource to power it and a relatively high proportion of the class power hinges on this resource. This means you can add a lot of abilities to it and have something cool without it being overpowered.


This is if it were to be a subclass of an existing class. As its own class, then there are different challanges but also more freedom.

As its own class, the theme is a bit narrow. You get one spell... or at best a small handful of spells. How do you keep this interesting? What are the other features of the class? What subclasses would it support?

My leaning would be towards making the class a light martial framework - two attacks, medium armour, d10 hit die, a few low power miscelaious martial abilities, probably something like the valor bard bonus action attack when casting a spell... Let each subclass be a spell/collection of spells and let the subclass cary a more than average amount of power in the resulting character.

quindraco
2021-06-07, 08:05 AM
As its own class, the theme is a bit narrow. You get one spell... or at best a small handful of spells. How do you keep this interesting? What are the other features of the class? What subclasses would it support?

Yes, I agree. If you design the whole class around one thematic spell, it will usually feel like a straitjacket, outside of particularly versatile spells like Polymorph where you could maybe get clever. If you try to design one generic class that picks a thematic spell, things will break down quickly, because spells are so different from each other each spell is likely to need an individual approach.

I think the whole concept works better as what amounts to a brand new set of Warlock invocations.

clash
2021-06-07, 09:08 AM
As its own class, the theme is a bit narrow. You get one spell... or at best a small handful of spells. How do you keep this interesting? What are the other features of the class? What subclasses would it support?


If I were to design this as it's own class I would have each subclass focus on a theme based on a spell or handful of spells. So the class might be specialist and a subclass could be pyromancer or shifter etc.

tordirycgoyust
2021-06-07, 10:54 AM
Yes, I agree. If you design the whole class around one thematic spell, it will usually feel like a straitjacket, outside of particularly versatile spells like Polymorph where you could maybe get clever. If you try to design one generic class that picks a thematic spell, things will break down quickly, because spells are so different from each other each spell is likely to need an individual approach.

I think the whole concept works better as what amounts to a brand new set of Warlock invocations.

I think, for those dozen or so spells or families of spells I'm interested in, that the resulting class shouldn't feel like more of a straitjacket than the Champion Fighter, Assassin or Thief Rogue, Open Hand or Shadow Monk, or Frenzy Barbarian.

You are right that each needs an individual approach. Most spells, such as most blasting spells or divinations, just aren't suitable for this kind of thing, just to start. Of those that are, they all scale differently and lend themselves to different styles of play that need different ancillary abilities. I do however think I can do them all as subclasses of a sort of Spell Savant base class that gets little more than ASIs, with a subclass feature at every odd level.

It should also be said that the subclass need not necessarily be based around casting the spell, but could instead simply be inspired by the spell, so as to rebalance its use around being an essentially at will ability. For example it turns out I'd completely misread Fortune's Favour when I suggested it would be a good candidate spell, and now my concept more closely resembles something based around ranged help and hinder actions. Or for another example I'm basically creating a series of nerfed Bigby's Hand-like SLAs for lower levels.

Old Harry MTX
2021-06-07, 11:53 AM
I think if it were to be a subclass, then yes - it should be a martial subclass simply because any other class would have so many uses for spell slots and the theme would be likely to get lost amongst the other casting.

My preference would be to stick something like this on the monk - Ki gives an existing resource to power it and a relatively high proportion of the class power hinges on this resource. This means you can add a lot of abilities to it and have something cool without it being overpowered.


This is if it were to be a subclass of an existing class. As its own class, then there are different challanges but also more freedom.

As its own class, the theme is a bit narrow. You get one spell... or at best a small handful of spells. How do you keep this interesting? What are the other features of the class? What subclasses would it support?

My leaning would be towards making the class a light martial framework - two attacks, medium armour, d10 hit die, a few low power miscelaious martial abilities, probably something like the valor bard bonus action attack when casting a spell... Let each subclass be a spell/collection of spells and let the subclass cary a more than average amount of power in the resulting character.

You are right, the monk would already have a "spiritual" basis to justify the use of some spells (Way of Shadow already does), but this can be easily introduced for other martial classes as well.

For example, consider that at regular intervals someone proposes a subclass that acquires arcane powers through the inscription of spell formulas on tattoos. Such a concept would go perfectly well for a barbarian, but it wouldn't have too many problems even for a rogue or a fighter.

tordirycgoyust
2021-06-07, 02:05 PM
You are right, the monk would already have a "spiritual" basis to justify the use of some spells (Way of Shadow already does), but this can be easily introduced for other martial classes as well.

For example, consider that at regular intervals someone proposes a subclass that acquires arcane powers through the inscription of spell formulas on tattoos. Such a concept would go perfectly well for a barbarian, but it wouldn't have too many problems even for a rogue or a fighter.

Isn't that basically just the Rune Knight from Tasha's?

Anyway, there's a difference in purpose here between a martial class that martials really well and also does this neat magical thing a few times per day, and a specialized casting class that does this magical thing really well all day long but may or may not be able to martial a bit in support (or in the case of, say, Bestow Curse or Polymorph, the magical thing is what enables the martialing in the first place).

If we must phrase it in terms of gishes, what I'm going for here is not the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, but the Bladesinger or Dragon Sorcerer. Just, without the baggage of a massive spell list diluting the identity of the character. This necessitates creating a new base class, because none of the existing base classes have a chassis remotely suited to this kind of character concept. The Warlock comes closest and in 3e the Sorcerer kind of tried to do it, but in many ways they do the opposite of what I want.